The Nurses.

Marksie · 03-04-2007 11:12PM

PeakOutput wrote:

paying the nurses more and reducing the working week is not going to improve the service the patients recieve

in fact imo shortening the working week for them will dramatically decrease the level of service as there will be an even greater shortage of staff then there is now

Peakouput... given the fact that the PPARS is how many millions over budget?
Given the fact that the the cervical smear screening unit is still not in place after 5 years and that could have prevented up to 1000 deaths PER year, and the concommitant drain on the system.

The nurses are not the ones that should be vilified. You can always be assured that when they threaten action though, the first thing you hear is the threat to patient welfare, and that comes from those who care least.

I personally do not care whether you think my analogy is stupid or not in fact shove it where the sun dont shine. But what Nurse_baz has said was absolutely true..you cannot measure what can be done to help people in terminal situations. It is beyond price what they do to ease people through it.

I know.. here, now, this minute what they do for your loved ones because i have one going through it, and its very nearly over.

What the nurses are doing is worth its weight.

constitutionus · 03-04-2007 11:37PM

not to mention it wasnt the nurses who told Pajo walsh to" **** off coz its past 5.30 and we dont treat sick people here after that" when he tried to get admited to THREE hospitals to stop, you know , BLEEDING TO DEATH !

THATS the HSE for you, and as a result, mary harney. :mad:

the only threat to patient care here is from the HSE. They will deliberatly cancel operations and delay results to cast the nurse's in a bad light in a blatant attempt to fool the public . the feckers are at it already in cavan, which if memory serves is one of the three aforementiond hospitals. the full force of the state will be swung into effect to demonise the nurses. but guess what, it wont work ,because everyone and his dog KNOWS theyve been shafted. well now its payback time and i hope the nurse's make the gov look like the souless bastards they are

Eglinton · 03-04-2007 11:44PM

I'm not too sure about this but is it true that a nurses starting salary is circa 36,000 euro? If so, that's pretty impressive - easily 10K more than most peoples' starting salary with a degree etc and much much more than than school leavers. Also most people work a minimum of 37.5 hours a week and usually more.

ergo · 03-04-2007 11:55PM

kizzyr wrote:

Doctors are only on a 32 / 33 hour week so why should nurses who work in the same areas and with the exact same people be forced to work longer?

this is not true, am fairly sure (99% certain) doctors are on a basic 39 hour week, of course sometimes they have to work twice as much as that

I work in a hospital, this work to rule is definitely compromising patient care, the sooner it's over the better, I agree with the nurses claims but maybe not all at once

*Co-incidentally when did a 35 hour week become the norm?

Is it France we're in? I like France a lot but I always had it in my head that 39 or 40 was the basic week here. Mary Harney was on telly earlier too saying that something along the lines of 70% of workers in the HSE work 39 or 40 hour weeks, did I pick that up wrong? if this is the case then make all the allied health work the 39 hour week and it might speed things up in the hosptals and reduce delays

**************************
From INO website nurses' salary scale www.ino.ie (correct me if this is out of date)

Student nurse 3 : €22,901
post registered student nurse(?) : €24,771
staff nurse €28,788

PeakOutput · 04-04-2007 12:10AM

marksuttonie wrote:

Peakouput... given the fact that the PPARS is how many millions over budget?
Given the fact that the the cervical smear screening unit is still not in place after 5 years and that could have prevented up to 1000 deaths PER year, and the concommitant drain on the system.

The nurses are not the ones that should be vilified. You can always be assured that when they threaten action though, the first thing you hear is the threat to patient welfare, and that comes from those who care least.

I personally do not care whether you think my analogy is stupid or not in fact shove it where the sun dont shine. But what Nurse_baz has said was absolutely true..you cannot measure what can be done to help people in terminal situations. It is beyond price what they do to ease people through it.

I know.. here, now, this minute what they do for your loved ones because i have one going through it, and its very nearly over.

What the nurses are doing is worth its weight.

the nurses are not being villified at least not by me in any way shape or form

there is no doubt they do a great job and most people will experience how great they are as you are now and i have in the past

that does not change the fact that service will not be improved by shortening their working week..............by your rationale we should let them do whatever they want and to hell with the consequences.

the health service is a shambles....its not the nurses fault BUT in the state it is in now we cannot possibly allow them to do less work for more pay...........just because something it is already a shambles is not an excuse to let them away with something that will make it worse

this country has a surplus of more than i a billion i have no problem with them getting a pay rise even though it will mroe than likely start a chain reaction in the public sector and end benchmarking..............BUT there is no justification for them working 4 hours less a week.

like a few other people have said as far as i am concerned 39hour week is average in this country. i work a 40 hour week and also do not get paid for my lunches and im on significantly less than a nurses starting salary............if i want better conditions i need to get a new job simple as that

constitutionus · 04-04-2007 12:27AM

PeakOutput wrote:

the nurses are not being villified at least not by me in any way shape or form

read any newspaper or listen to any radio chat show. its wall to wall.

Peakoutput wrote:

like a few other people have said as far as i am concerned 39hour week is average in this country. i work a 40 hour week and also do not get paid for my lunches and im on significantly less than a nurses starting salary............if i want better conditions i need to get a new job simple as that

in the health sector its 35. the junior doctors and nurses are being screwed to the wall so others can enjoy this but there you go.

if your working 40 hours a week your in violation of the EU working time directive. effectively breaking the law. interestingly doctors and nurses are the only ones exempt from this:rolleyes: but google it. your not allowed by law to work over 39 hours a week . far as i know the only out is if your self employed because it applies to employees so if your subcontracted your ok otherwise your boss is breaking the law.

and as to you statement of getting a new job for better conditions your wrong. you need to organise yourself and your fellow workers to negotiate with your boss. or do you think they just decided to give you a lunch break out of the goodness of their hearts? always amazes me that people dont realise the fact you get holidays , sick pay and bank holidays off is because they were fought for over the years. if it was left to the employers you wouldnt get time off for a funeral. or havent you noticed the dilution of working conditions going on in this economy? i work in the private sector and no one in my company is getting my contract anymore. dont think it wont happen to you, particularly when the recession kicks in. im not a mad advocate of the unions but if your not in one your leaving yourself open to abuse. in the last two years im pretty sure its saved my job and guaranteed if and when i am made redundant i get a hell of alot more than the two weeks pay for every year everyone else gets. plus the mear mention of contacting them stops management trying to mess with my rate when i work on bank holidays. most recently when they tried to get me to work paddies day for normal time instead of the usual double time. bottom line is your employers job is to get as much out of you for the minimum amount of money and maximum productivity. your jobs to get the opposite

the balance of this gives the best working enviorment. if it swings one way you end up like the nurses, the other like the 11 ex health boards. neither is good . but dont expect an employer to just hand it to you.

jackofalltrades · 04-04-2007 12:28AM

I work in a hospital, this work to rule is definitely compromising patient care, the sooner it's over the better, I agree with the nurses claims but maybe not all at once

I've heard exactly the opposite, that in the absence of nurse's to do the consultants donkey work, consultants are on the wards a lot more.

If working to rule(or just doing your your job) leads to chaos, then it management who are at fault for expecting someone to do a job out of just goodwill. They need to pay someone to do that job wether its the nurse's or someone else.

BUT there is no justification for them working 4 hours less a week.

*Co-incidentally when did a 35 hour week become the norm?

Their seeking a 35 hour working week to bring them into line with certain other health professionals. And as other people have posted, the Labour Court seems to think there is some justification to their claim.

PeakOutput · 04-04-2007 12:39AM

jackofalltrades wrote:

the Labour Court seems to think there is some justification to their claim.

the labour court thought so 27 years ago...............i think they were just in the labour court recently and they were told they need to go threw the benchmarking process like everyone else.

i really dont get all this bring it in line with other jobs in the same place crap. they are not doing the other jobs they are nursing which at the moment is a 39hour a week job and the health service cannot be benefited by letting them work a shorter week at the moment. im not saying their role should not be redefined and they do have a hard job BUT there should be no shortening of working hours for anyone in the public health sector until the service is brought up to par

as regards the 40hour week thing that is very interesting we get everything else and im only here until i go back to college anyway but ill look into it a bit more for the simple reason i hate my employers and wouldnt mind causing them a bit of trouble. also i have worked for brilliant employers who genuinely did give their employees things beyond the call of duty ...not from the goodness of their hearts but because they know we will work harder for them because of it

constitutionus · 04-04-2007 01:10AM

PeakOutput wrote:

as regards the 40hour week thing that is very interesting we get everything else and im only here until i go back to college anyway but ill look into it a bit more for the simple reason i hate my employers and wouldnt mind causing them a bit of trouble. also i have worked for brilliant employers who genuinely did give their employees things beyond the call of duty ...not from the goodness of their hearts but because they know we will work harder for them because of it

hey wanted to give you a heads up. check out oasis.ie . its a gov site for citizen info. i was wrong about the hours. its 40 if your a young worker around 16 17 but 48 if an average guy. its a bit more complicated cause you have to work out your average hours over a four month period and depending on the sector your in but have a look. you'd be surprised how many companies abuse the hell out of new workers good will. my place had a six month 100% turn over of staff because of how disillusioned people became and i nearly left myself till one of my managers gave me some advice on how to handle em. good luck in college

Wishbone Ash · 04-04-2007 01:23AM

PeakOutput wrote:

i work a 40 hour week and also do not get paid for my lunches and im on significantly less than a nurses starting salary

Nurses are not paid for their lunch/evening meal breaks. Where did this silly rumour originate?

PeakOutput · 04-04-2007 01:25AM

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Nurses are not paid for their lunch/evening meal breaks. Where did this silly rumour originate?

i said "also not paid for" implying that i know they are not..........i have heard they are and i have heard they are not i will assume theya re not until proven otherwise

Wishbone Ash · 04-04-2007 01:39AM

PeakOutput wrote:

i said "also not paid for" implying that i know they are not..........i have heard they are and i have heard they are not i will assume theya re not until proven otherwise

Sorry PeakOutput, I picked you up wrongly.

(It has been stated in other threads and in the media that they get paid for meal breaks - complete cráp)

Bob the Builder · 04-04-2007 01:44AM

I just came to point out that Nurses have stopped the non-nursing duties, and have maintained their nursing duries. Actually, wait a min, if the HSE can be totally disrupted by nurses refusing to do non-nursing duties.

K-9 · 04-04-2007 01:50AM

nurse_baz wrote:

FACT is that most of us aren't permanent at all, most of us are on temporary contracts. yes we may be pernsionable, but that doesn't do me much good now. se the big bad private sector boogey man throws u out? come on get serious here.

Sorry Nurze_baz. I do have sympathy for the nurses claim. Don't go on about pensions like that though, won't do your argument any good.

Off course pensions don't do you any good now! But tell that to private sector workers/self-employed who have to fund them out of their wages/take-home pay Now.

It's something public servants have to start taking into consideration They're pension is taken care off before pay, private sector workers pay theirs out of their gross wage.

K-9 · 04-04-2007 01:54AM

nurse_baz wrote:

of course no one was forced into the job, but i really don't think anyone who trots out this argument has any understanding of what it is like to be any of the health professionals (doctors/nurses/physios etc). despite the professionalisation of the job, nursing and the others are still very much vocational, in that people tend to choose to do the job because they want to give something back, or to help people. maybe not a fashionable thing to say these days but in the main its true.

Yes, so why strike over pay/working week if it's a vocation. Do Priests/Nuns strike over pay and conditions?

K-9 · 04-04-2007 02:16AM

nurse_baz wrote:

again i ask, whats wrong with people looking to improve their conditions? to hear some people within the private sector talk, you'd think that it was all a big share and share alike, altruistic love in, but its not. it appears that a lot of you are in jobs that you really don't like very much, but are kinda stuck there (mortgages,rent, loans etc need to be paid) and i'm not knocking that, but please don't try and talk down to, or patronise those of us who actually enjoy our work, and want to do better out of it.

for those (not you pred racer) that have called nurses greedy, u just think about the last time u were in hospital, or someone close to you was, and see if that holds any water. when i'm regularly out of work late because i took an extra 15 minutes with your dying granny, or held your dads hand for 2 hours while a doctor explained to him that he would be dead in 2 months, think again about some of the bull**** thats been posted here about nurses being greedy

I don't think anybody suggesting Nurses are greedy.

What about the extra money that the unions where looking for relocation expenses to the new Cork Maternity hospital. If it was the private sector and the factory/office was moving you would be told tough and you wouldn't get any extra money.

A lot of the negative reaction here is because of the Health service generally, Govt./HSE/Nurses/Consultants etc. There seems to a us v. them mentality rather than a, actually lets get this service working properly mentality for the good of everybody involved. That is the difference between the public and private sector.

Blush_01 · 04-04-2007 02:18AM

Reality: The Ma's a PHN with a cushy 9-5, 5 days a week job. So she starts at 9 and gets back to the office between 7 and 10 (she's lucky enough to live about 10 minutes from work). When she gets home she has dinner and starts filling in her paperwork. She still gets paid for her 9-5 though. I think it's a good deal! :rolleyes: She also earns about €200 more after taxes than I do when I work a four day week (I'm a student, just got my BA, working part time in a reception, have no previous experience. Recently took a €2/hour paycut when I left my old job - because it sucked.) even though she's been back to nursing for the past 8 or 9 years (having taken time off to raise us kids) and is a qualified midwife and PHN with 15 years experience before she got married, which means she has no pension to speak of. She obviously has all her re-training completed since her return. Jammy situation, don't you think?

Perhaps 10% is excessive, but if you start lower, then you can still only bargain down.

The Da was in hospital last year a few times and was pretty sick. I have never met more helpful and understanding people than the nurses who dealt with him. TBH they were the only people who gave anyone any answers. They told you as much as they knew, and made sure to make The Da and his fellow patients as comfortable as possible. Exact same situation when I had surgery in December, or broke my foot in 2002, or when my Gran was in hospital any of the many times over the past three years.

All the crap that's being spouted about nurses not telling families how patients are etc. is exactly that - crap. If you want a receptionist, hire a receptionist, not a nurse. The job of a nurse is not administrative, it's about dealing with patients. You wouldn't hire a gardener to fix your plumbing, would you? (Unless it was a particularly multi-talented gardener!) I know in every job there is a certain amount of give and take. That's why until now nurses have obliged in answering phones and dealing with tests/results etc. But if your boss handed you a scrubbing brush and asked you to clean the toilet, you'd be well within your rights to say no, that it's not part of your job description. Likewise, especially in light of the strike situation, a work-to-rule is just emphasising how much time is wasted on doing non-nursing tasks which are outside the remit of nursing staff. Hopefully things will be resolved before strike action goes further, as I'd hate to see anyone's health suffering because of it.

Sierra Oscar · 04-04-2007 02:18AM

Get back to work and do your job.

04-04-2007 08:37AM

nevf wrote:

I just came to point out that Nurses have stopped the non-nursing duties, and have maintained their nursing duries. Actually, wait a min, if the HSE can be totally disrupted by nurses refusing to do non-nursing duties.

Exactly. I mean if they're all breaking down now when the nurses are only doing what they were supposed to be doing in the first place, it's not the nurses' fault now is it!

As for people saying "well noone forced them into it" I bet you'd be singing a different tune if you were in hospital noone had decided to do nursing because of bad conditions. I mean seriously what is this supposed to mean, noone in any job is allowed to complain about anything in it because they decided to take it? come on!

Heinrich · 04-04-2007 08:41AM

timmywex wrote:

yes, i do realise there is an issue with junior people reporting to other nurses getting paid more but think there are other ways of sorting this out

How would you go about sorting this out then? As you say, there are other ways so let's cut the rhetoric and tell us how!

DO0GLE · 04-04-2007 08:46AM

My employer would get some laugh if I demanded a 10% pay rise and reduced working week from 39hrs to 35hrs per week.

If the nurses get this, then teachers will be next to moan, then gardai......on so on. I thought that there was some sort of national agreement anyway.

Heinrich · 04-04-2007 08:56AM

DO0GLE wrote:

My employer would get some laugh if I demanded a 10% pay rise and reduced working week from 39hrs to 35hrs per week.

If the nurses get this, then teachers will be next to moan, then gardai......on so on. I thought that there was some sort of national agreement anyway.

If you doing a great job he might not laugh if you threatened to stop doing this great job and take yourself elsewhere! Besides, you are not a nurse and I'm quite sure you do not have the same levels of commitment and stress that is expected from that profession!

Talk is cheap. Ask Mary...

Borzoi · 04-04-2007 09:31AM

Seanies32 wrote:

I don't think anybody suggesting Nurses are greedy.

Neither do I, but I do think the INO might be....

How do you tell there's an election looming? The Nurses threaten to go on strike, usually in the knowledge that a weak Government (i.e. all of them) would never be able to stand up to the Angels, for fear of the political backlash at the polls.

Wishbone Ash · 04-04-2007 09:34AM

Borzoi wrote:

How do you tell there's an election looming? The Nurses threaten to go on strike

The last strike occurred while the Government were in mid-term!

timmywex · 04-04-2007 09:35AM

Heinrich wrote:

How would you go about sorting this out then? As you say, there are other ways so let's cut the rhetoric and tell us how!

there are 50 staff involved,i believe, give these 50 staff a promotion and they can then get more pay, there are only 50 staff lads, not 40000,

theres no need to give the nurses a total of 32% when everything is added in, (Shorter week,pay rises,benchmarking)

timmywex · 04-04-2007 09:35AM

DO0GLE wrote:

My employer would get some laugh if I demanded a 10% pay rise and reduced working week from 39hrs to 35hrs per week.

If the nurses get this, then teachers will be next to moan, then gardai......on so on. I thought that there was some sort of national agreement anyway.

yes, if one crowd get it, they'll all want it, most state employees cant be let go on strike because services would collapse, education,emergency services

DO0GLE · 04-04-2007 09:47AM

Heinrich wrote:

If you doing a great job he might not laugh if you threatened to stop doing this great job and take yourself elsewhere! Besides, you are not a nurse and I'm quite sure you do not have the same levels of commitment and stress that is expected from that profession!

Talk is cheap. Ask Mary...

I don't think anyone in the country would deny that nurses do a great job but fact is that if nurses get what they are looking for, every other civil servant will be holding the government to ransom by threatening strike action and causing chaosis.

A 10% pay increase is ridiculous. However I feel that nurses should be entitled to the work the same amount of basic hours as anyone else in the sector. I also think the basic hours for all should be 39hrs per week like the majority of the working population, not 35hrs per week.

There's a national agreement in place for a reason.

Wishbone Ash · 04-04-2007 09:47AM

timmywex wrote:

there are 50 staff involved,i believe, give these 50 staff a promotion and they can then get more pay, there are only 50 staff lads, not 40000,

It's not that simple timmywex. The extra money would have to be allocated to the post, not the post holder. Otherwise they couldn't be replaced as any new/replacement staff wouldn't get it which would be unfair. There would also be problems reassigning staff if the event of shortages etc. Nurses could refuse to work in an area unless they were also fairly remunerated.

If the rate of pay was increased in one area, it may provide recruiting problems in other areas.

This problem was created several years ago by Mary Hanafin and her department. She increased the rate of pay for care staff in special residential centres as they had problems recruiting/retaining staff. They didn't seem to see the repercussions in other similarly related roles.

PS - where did you get the figure 50. It's way more than that.

Dragan · 04-04-2007 09:47AM

DarkJager wrote:

they make me absolutely sick with the whining they go on with.

Lucky for you they will be there to take care of you then. :rolleyes:

Heinrich · 04-04-2007 09:53AM

timmywex wrote:

yes, if one crowd get it, they'll all want it, most state employees cant be let go on strike because services would collapse, education,emergency services

Someone created this mess, it didn't just happen. Bad decisions are being made by incompetent or politically driven boards/executives etc. and when it all turns rotten the blaming starts. We presumably elect a government to run the show and if they actually focussed on their mandate rather than how long they can hold on to power these situations should never arise.

The Nurses.

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