Learning Irish

csk wrote:

Teaching what is our birthright and a part of our culture and heritage is not a waste of money.

Birthright? If it's such a birthright why do so few speak it? If it's such a part of our culture and heritage why do so few speak it, read it or even understand it? And this after all of us going through an education system where it's compulsory? I'll tell you. It's obviously not enough part of our culture or heritage, for enough people and for enough reasons.

A joke ? Aren't jokes suppose to be funny ?

It's about as funny as spending large amounts of money and effort on a language that so few speak. Official language of the EU. I mean c'mon.

and this one gets really silly:
Hate - abhorrence, abomination, anathema, animosity, animus, antagonism, antipathy, aversion, bete noire, black beast*, bother, bugbear*, destination, detestation, disgust, dislike, dog-eye, enmity, execration, frost*, grievance, gripe, hatred, horror, hostility, ill will, irritant, loathing, malevolence, malignity, mislike, nasty look, nuisance, objection, odium, pain, rancor, rankling, repugnance, repulsion, resentment, revenge, revulsion, scorn, shudders, spite, trouble, venom

Now do the same in Irish. How many synonyms do you get?

You doubt what ? You really answer your own question there. The simple fact that Irish still being spoken today is testamont to its evolution amd its continuing evolution.

Go to the Basque country if you want to hear a vibrant language. You can hear it all over the place. For years the government tried to stop it, but they couldn't. Why? Because the people wanted to use it. In many ways you couldn't be Basque without the language. You can be Irish without the language. There's many more examples of minority languages that survive and thrive under far less auspicious circumstances than Irish. Why has it needed to be propped up for so long and continues to be so? The An Daingain(sp) debacle was farcical. The locals didn't want it, the tourists were going WTF and most of the rest of us looked on with bemusement. Some even argued it was a made up name and the place has been known as Dingle for centuries. How much wasted money, time and effort was spent on that little example of idiocy? It was a microcosm to the state of the language in general and government efforts to prop it up in particular.

I get the impression that what underpins your want to get rid of the Irish language, is based on ashamedness or hate rather than logical or practical reasons.

Not at all. The logical or practical reasons I outlined in the first paragraph of this post. Your logical or practical reasons come down to heritage and culture. While it's in our heritage, like other languages that were spoken here in the past, it's impact and use in modern Ireland will rest on whether people want to speak it or not. Only time will tell. Frankly I can't see a majority of Irish speakers, using Irish everyday in business, play or just walking down the street any time soon. In any case why would anyone be ashamed of, or hate a method of communication? That says more about you than me.

If Irish ceases to be a part of the heritage and the culture of the Irish Nation then we can get rid of it.

In most ways, in ways that count, it already has.

obl wrote:

Out of interest, why do people hate it so? Bad experience? Crap at it and thus jealous?

Bad teaching of it. The real or perceived view that it's useless in modern Ireland. The money spent on it that might be best spent in better ways or simply spent elsewhere. The feeling that it's been pushed on a largely reluctant populace. The holier than thou attitude prevalent among some Irish speakers, that the rest of us aren't really Irish if we can't speak it. There's a socio/political angle to it among some to boot.

Any language needs the will of the majority of the population to continue to grow it by actually using it on a daily basis. We just don't see that with Irish, when compared to other minority languages.

I think jealousy would only come into it if it was in far more usage. Frankly, as it stands, there's not a lot to be jealous about. Does it have a part in our heritage? Yes. Does it have value today without the majority using it? Debatable. Does it define me as an Irishman if I can't speak it? Hardly. Look at the long list of Irish people who are world renowned. How many were and are fluent Irish speakers, no mind native speakers? Even the aforementioned DeValera couldn't speak it FFS.

Just because I and the vast majority of Irish people speak, write and conduct their lives everyday through the medium of "English", doesn't make them or me English. More to the point it doesn't make me any less Irish. The same goes for Americans, Canadians, New Zealanders etc etc who speak it as a common tongue.

My gran lives in Dublin, Gaeilge is her first language. She can speak English, but when possible conducts her life through Irish(Gov. Documents, etc.). I only speak to her in Irish. The language is alive and well in the major cities, and is far from useless as some people say.

Fair enough, but where do you see the average person on the street using it daily? Fact is you don't. Compared to other minority languages it's in very little actual use. I've heard more minority languages on short holidays in other countries than I've heard Irish in my life.

The rate of signs and papers in Polish in recent years is growing faster than our so called national language. Why? Because there's a real need for it. The increase in gaelscoils may redress the balance, but at the moment it's not in general use by anything like a large segment of the population.

Did you catch that programme on TG4 recently where the chap went around this country trying to exclusively use Irish to get by? Hard time wasn't in it. Fact is he would have had far far better luck speaking, Basque, Estonian, Welsh in their respective countries. Can you imagine if your gran could only speak Irish? How far would she get doing the usual things in life in such a circumstance? That says a lot about it's relevance currently.

Aside from all that, being exposed to more than one language form a young age helps your mind accept the idea of labelling and saying things in different ways.

I agree.

Those who have even some constant exposure to more than one language before the age of 6 have been scientifically proven to be better language learners.

I agree again.

And if it gives them a national and cultural identity, all the better.

Fair enough, but French, Spanish or Chinese would be more useful. Languages as methods of communication stand or fall over time, because of their usefulness and popularity. Even cultural usefulness is a reason, but only if the culture itself wants it to survive and grow. If Irish survives and thrives because more and more people speak it then fair enough, but no amount of spending and cultural handwringing is going to change it's current state if more people don't use it. It's doomed to die off otherwise.

Lil Kitten wrote:

Not liking the language because of the way you were taught it or because of bad teachers is the most retardest thing I've heard in a long time.

Eh no it's not. If the language is to survive it has to be taught in a better way. Clearly it's not. If it was we'd all be able to speak it. We can't. How's that for retarded.

Grow up like.

Huh?

You can't just ban something because you don't like it. Ban everything! Have no subjects.

What, pray tell are you wittering on about? Who suggested banning it? If people want to use it, they will and it will survive. If not, it won't.

So what if Irish isn't used everyday. Do you only do things because you have to?? Because of their use?

Let's do this slowly, shall we? It is a language. It is a method of communication. Every interaction you have with every person you meet uses language to communicate. If so few use it, it's "usefulness" as a method of communication is low.

Night classes in Gaeilge is same as night classes in tap dance or ceramics or art and craft.

Can you even begin to see the difference with those examples?

It's called enjoyment, and adding a new string to your bow.

Fine, education is it's own reward, but that hardly makes it a living breathing language, any more than tap dance is to be seen as the pervading dance style in your local nightclub.

Why the fcuk was I forced to learn some stupid European language??

Millions more people speak them, more literature is written in them and they're living languages in daily use.

THAT should have been an option too. If people think Irish should be optional, so should all languages.

As others have said learning a second language is a good thing. The language you chose to learn should at least be usable in daily speech. Irish is currently not in that bracket

Could have cost me my acceptance into college cos I was bad at French.

You could argue the same with Irish.

I have no intention of going to France let alone work there.

Your loss I assure you.

Talking about cost, how much does it cost for the 12,000 new language teachers in primary school to cope with foreign nationals?

Because it has a good return on the investment. It brings people into the culture by learning the majority language. What use would it be for a Polish person to learn Irish?

Or teachers for Spanish, Latin, Italian, German, French in secondary school?

They're choices.

More money is spent on giving free English classes to foreign people living here, on Polish documentation and translating government stuff than on Gaeilge. Give out about that.

Why? As I've pointed out to you, it's a very useful thing with big returns. BTW, I would only love to see the stats you have where it shows more government spending on teaching foreign nationals English and how it compares to the expenditure on the promotion, translation etc on Irish. I really would. The cost of Irish road signs alone would likely cover it. Let me guess, they get free cars too. Sniffing the edge of dodgy nationalism methinks.

It's a beautiful, interesting language. It's ours.

It was ours. It may be ours again. It's not ours now if the vast majority of Irish people aren't fluent in it.

Those countries are taught English, businesees use English. We have no need to learn their language. Fact.

Pretty much everything uses English and on that basis we've little reason to learn "our" language either, if so few feel it's "ours" enough to want to use it.

Deleted User wrote:

Gaeilge will always be a minority language in Europe, but then so is Danish, Dutch, Flemmish & walloonie and many others. In those countries most can speak at least one other language (usualy English or another major language).

True and I take your point. I think the problem here is that unlike those examples you give and other minority languages in other countries a larger majority of the cultural groups are fluent and use it. They have a second language, but their first language is far more likely to be the minority language, which is clearly not the case in Ireland. Forget about people who can speak Irish for a minute. How many Irish people have Irish as their actual first language? I'd suggest it's a very small number.

Yes, that's the problem. In many ways it's more a cultural construct than a living language. I've friends who claim to speak the language, but as you say they have quite a basic grasp. Deep discussions in the language outside that bread and butter context would leave them floundering and if they met someone from the Blaskets or suchlike they would likely sound like stuttering foreigners who just picked up a "Learn a new language in a week" CD. While it's admirable that they try to speak it, it's hardly anything approaching fluency. If it goes on like this and Irish does come back, it may be a very different beast in some ways because of this limited fluency. That's OK though languages evolve.

csk wrote:

Yes it is our birthright look up the definition of heritage which you admit it is part of.:rolleyes:

Heritage; something that is passed down from preceding generations. If it's been passed down why does it require such intensive care and why do the majority of people not use it?

Bad teaching is not an excuse for getting rid of it, that smacks of throwing the baby out with the bathwater; pointless. Reform is needed yes, getting rid of it is not.

I certainly never suggested getting rid of it or banning it. Leave the overreaction at the door.

Most opinion polls show that an overlywhelming majority of people are in favour of keeping the language in schools.

Yet an overwhelming majority can't speak it or don't use it in their everyday lives. What's wrong with this picture. It sounds like a lot of people wish it was more prevalent, but the will to make it so from the ground up is sadly lacking. Try actually reading what I actually wrote, not what you think I wrote. It may help.

Me wrote:

It's obviously not enough part of our culture or heritage, for enough people and for enough reasons.

Once again what was your original point ? I suspect you had none, other than to couch your ignorance in flippancy.

If you can't grasp the basic point I was making vis a vis the cultural importance of the notion of national belonging and pride with the languages and the examples in question, I really don't know where to go with this.

Okay lets hear your reasoning for the above, it might give me a laugh if nothing else.

The more synonyms, the more options you have in a language to communicate ideas the "better" the language at the job of language.Put it another way, how many synonyms of hate can most modern "fluent" Irish speakers honestly muster without recourse to a dictionary or Google? I suspect they can think of far more as Bearla.

Yes it was farcial, so was the Berite Bowl but no one is saying lets never attempt to build a national stadium ever again. More Baby with the Bath water syndrome.

No both are good examples of wooley headed thinking applied to a problem.

Okay so you don't like how its taught, lets get rid of it, that's it? Very, very compelling argument. :rolleyes:

No. Again try and understand what I wrote, not what you think I wrote. Basque, Latvian, Estonian, Flemish etc didn't even need to be taught in schools to survive and thrive. They didn't need to be compulsory, indeed were often discouraged, but they're in far more fluent, first language use among those that claim to be from that cultural background than Irish is. What does that tell you?

So if it has already ceased to be part of our heritage, then I can only presume that the Irish Nation has ceased to exist ? But wait a minute, that can't be right ? the Irish Nation still exists, right ?

Exactly. The Irish language is in the minority as a first and second language in Ireland today, yet we're still a nation of Irishmen and women. You've just answered one of my questions right there. Being able to speak Irish or not does not define us as members of this nation.

Meanwhile in the real world, Gealscoileanna around the country are thriving, TG4 is prospering, websites such as Tar éis na huaire and even some on Bebo are being set up

That's a start and it may help. It remains to be seen.

and get this the census (2004can't find 2006) show that 1.6million people are competent in Irish,

Define competence if you will. I know quite a few who have little Irish beyond what they would have as holiday French, yet claimed a competency on that very census.

70-80000 have it as their first language.

Even if we chose to belive that figure for the moment and disregard "cultural" reasons for making such a claim, what is that compared to the four millions who make no such claim?

Ffs look at this poll, while in no way defintinve shows their are a porportion of the population who use Irish, far from thriving but far from dying either.

The best one could say is that it's in limbo as a working language.

humbert wrote:

haha, funny stuff People aren't talking about banning Irish, just making it optional.

Exactly. The gaelgoirs get awful defensive.

Oh and Basque, em the Irish have their own country.

Makes my point even more tbh. All the more reason Irish should be the dominant language after all the years of trying to revive it as we have our own country.

obl wrote:

So is Irish.

Are you seriously suggesting that Irish is in even in the same living langauge bracket as French?

Yes it is.

In a much smaller way. Do you speak Irish when you go to the supermarket, or deal in Irish with any of the day to day interaction with the rest of your fellow Irish people?

Yes it is. If it's not, who's is it?

It's only ours if it's in use by a larger proportion of the Irish population. Clearly it's not.

Unfortunately, a hell of a lot of Irish people have trouble enough with English.

That would be why we're at the forefront of writers, playwrights and poets in the English language then. If you throw Sammy Becket into the mix we're pretty good at the oul' French lark too.

Some blame this on Irish, even though they don't speak it!

Who does? Never heard the like. Indeed quite the opposite in fact. That Irish was a positive influence on Hiberno English would be more the prevailing view.

Just watching 'Níos Gaelaí' there on RTÉ, as your man Raj said, do we want to be blamed for letting the heart of our culture, and one of the oldest living languages on the planet die?

It's one of the oldest languages in Europe in the Celtic tradition. In any case Old Irish is a different animal to what passes for Irish today. If it's such a heart of our culture why do at least 90% of people who are Irish conduct their business in another language.

Why not use Gaeilge for everything? Everything here that requires talking legally has to be conductible through Irish (Constitution, Official Languages Act).

Simply because not enough speak it with enough fluency to be worthwhile. The pronunciations and grammar of some in the legal profession beggars belief(by their own admission). What about new people coming into the country? Should they have to learn two languages to get on. How many great minds have we lost and may lose to those professions just because they didn't have the facility for Irish. If it was compulsory in medicine the already screwed health system would grind to a halt.

Do away with the Sasnach influence

Ah the nub of the matter, I suspect. I smell the faintest hint of the Chuckys here.

How many of you Gaeilge-bashers support any Irish international sports team?

Quite a few I would imagine.

If you do why? You clearly aren't proud of being Irish.

Now at this point you're just being silly frankly. The vast majority of those who fought and died for this country couldn't speak the language. The vast majority of those internationally known as being Irish and representing what it is to be Irish don't speak it. Indeed I'd wager the majority of those Irish international sports teams that you reference can't speak it either.

Commander Vimes wrote:

me neither. i was born in this location so i have to support this team of people i've never met instead of that team of people i've never met. i have to fight and die in this army instead of that army even if the leader of my country is hitler and so on and so on

Exactomundo. As another renowned Irish man, George Bernard Shaw once
said “Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others just because you were born in it.” That goes for Irish too, especially if you use it as a hammer of culture that too few plug into.

Look, if it survives, indeed thrives and grows into the lingua franca of everyday discourse, then I would welcome it, as it means the people of this country want to use it, have a use for it and grow because of the use of it. Until that day dawns it is resigned for me to be that aforementioned exclusive "culture" of those who tilt at the windmills of their own view of what it is to be Irish.