Was Best Mate Over Rated?

Colonel Sanders · 05-01-2007 02:41PM #1

I talked about this in a seperate thread (somewhat off the subject) and it got me to start a thread on its own.

Best Mate was without doubt a very high class horse but an all time great? NO!! IMO the horse was a cheltenham specialist who's form away from prestbury park was at least a stone behind his cheltenham runs and in winning 3 gold cups beat very little of merit and any time a decent horse beat him connections dodged that horse subsequently. The more I look through his form the more holes I find in it.

Best Mate was being campaigned for a tilt at the RSA hurdle in 2000, monsignor absolutely destroyed him in the tolworth hurdle which resulted in him being rerouted to the supremem novices race.

Florida pearl beat him fair and square in the 2000 king george but the excuses flowed afterwards, if McCoy had ridden him for stamina rather than to get the trip blah blah blah blah...... Nonsense IMO, he was close enough if good enough 2 out and couldn't pass one of ireland's finest chasers who never got the credit he deserved in england because he never won a gold cup.

Before the peterborough chase in 2003 Henrietta Knight said in the racaingpost that the trip and ground were not ideal but there's be 'no excuses if we're beaten'. Jair du cochet beats him easily and the excuses begin to flow immediately afterwards. Knights states that best mate will run in the king george as long as the word 'soft' is not in the going description. It wasn't, but she decides to bring him over to ireland to run on good to soft ground. I know edredon bleu won the king george but sent off a 20/1 shot it was hardly a stroke no, was it?

In 3 gold cups best mate beat the equine heavywweights that were commanche court, marlboro, trcukers tavern, harbour pilot and sir rembrant. Hardly arkle like form now is it?

My conclusion about this horse is that he was a very good, cheltenham specialist who was overhyped by connections who then took actions to ensure the bubble they had built up was not burst for as long as possible.

Feel free to comment, I await a lot of abuse

Morgans · 05-01-2007 04:32PM

Was he overrated by official handicappers, ratings experts like RPR and Timeform - No,

Overrated by the general racing public who dont know any better - Yes.

fr wishy washy · 05-01-2007 05:10PM

Morgans wrote:

Was he overrated by official handicappers, ratings experts like RPR and Timeform - No,

Overrated by the general racing public who dont know any better - Yes.

Agreed,he was a very good horse but not one of the all time greats.

ChuckProphet · 05-01-2007 05:53PM

Colonel Sanders wrote:

and in winning 3 gold cups beat very little of merit

u could say the same about istabraq and his 3 ch's

BobbyD10 · 05-01-2007 09:12PM

The way I see it is that according to many experts Cheltenham is the Mecca of horse racing, thats where everyone wishes to ride,own or train winners.

Best Mate turned up on those three occasions and won which for that he deserves alot of credit.

And like football the term all time greats does be banded around very easily, for any horse to win three Gold Cups is a great achievement regardless of the opposition, they still have to be won, the horse has to be sound which is not easy and has to perform which he did. Only time will tell if he is truly a great but I believe he has gone along way to realising that title.

fr wishy washy · 05-01-2007 09:26PM

BobbyD10 wrote:

Only time will tell if he is truly a great but I believe he has gone along way to realising that title.

Would not deny him his credit for winning the Gold Cups but the public(in particular the English) got a bit carried away with their rating of him.He was beaten too many times (20 runs-12 wins from Jan 2000 on) to be a true great imo.

scojones · 05-01-2007 09:33PM

I'm sure Best Mate is over rated by some people. Every horse is over rated by someone or another. I don't think Best Mate is over rated by the general racing public.
Whenever I have talked to someone about Best Mate, it has always been about its achievements, nothing more. How this is over rating Best Mate... I've no idea. Best Mate was managed brilliantly. Trainers are avoiding Kauto Star, why does it matter if Best Mate avoided some horses who were clearly better than it? That's good management, and no matter what way you want to look at it, it won three gold cups and should get the credit it deserves for doing so. I haven't heard anyone saying it was the best horse ever, and if its connections have said or are saying this then I think that's simply their emotional attachment to the horse talking. To them, maybe, it was the best horse ever but that's because they were so close to it - and in their eyes they will never have another horse as good as Best Mate, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Tush · 05-01-2007 09:51PM

ChuckProphet wrote:

u could say the same about istabraq and his 3 ch's

Wont have you putting my Best Mate down Chuck.;)

fade2black · 05-01-2007 09:52PM

Every horse needs to be taken on its own merit. I think with NH horses there's always the danger that they will all be compared to Arkle. Maybe Best Mate was over rated by the Brits because they were desperate for a real jumping superstar?

Best Mate was a great horse, and his cause was greatly helped by a trainer and owner who embraced the public as much as the public embraced their horse. Great horses, nay, legends are not always remembered by what they achieved, but how they achieved it.

knighted_1 · 05-01-2007 10:08PM

sjones wrote:

I'm sure Best Mate is over rated by some people. Every horse is over rated by someone or another. I don't think Best Mate is over rated by the general racing public.
Whenever I have talked to someone about Best Mate, it has always been about its achievements, nothing more. How this is over rating Best Mate... I've no idea. Best Mate was managed brilliantly. Trainers are avoiding Kauto Star, why does it matter if Best Mate avoided some horses who were clearly better than it? That's good management, and no matter what way you want to look at it, it won three gold cups and should get the credit it deserves for doing so. I haven't heard anyone saying it was the best horse ever, and if its connections have said or are saying this then I think that's simply their emotional attachment to the horse talking. To them, maybe, it was the best horse ever but that's because they were so close to it - and in their eyes they will never have another horse as good as Best Mate, and there's nothing wrong with that.

excellently put-

RichieLawlor · 07-01-2007 04:40PM

All time great, debatable, Best Jumper of a fence ive ever seen, Definitely

Epicpriest · 08-01-2007 07:18PM

Ever see Djeddah jumping? God dam that horse knew how to get over em.

Corben Dallas · 10-01-2007 03:39PM

Dont think he was over-rated, three Gold Cups speaks for itself. However he was never really tested against the other top quality horses, because his owners/trainers didnt run him often enough and maybe theother trainers with the quality horses of that time should have put entries in to take on BM.

One thing i will say is that in 2 out of the 3 Gold Cups he won them with stunning runs easily beating/leaving behind the entire field. He was different class to all his opposition in his Gold Cup wins.

Morgans · 10-01-2007 08:19PM

Couple of misconceptions that have been raised here. Firstly, BM didnt hide from any race. It was a prep in the autumn, the Ericsson or the King George, and Cheltenham. Horses, and especially top class horses do not go in search of challenges. If the best horses turn up on the big races, so be it. Best Mate was a very good horse, but it was assumed by plenty in the media and by his supporters that he was 10lbs better than anything around. On the basis of a 12l defeat of Truckers Tavern and a 20l defeat of Desert Mountain.

Best Mate didnt avoided horses, why the original poster began the thread was the fact that when he did run and get beaten, there was always some excuse at the ready. He was ridden poorly when defeated by Florida Pearl - who was officially the best chaser in that year (ahead of BM by 1lb) when beaten by Jair Du Cochet, and when beaten by Beef or Salmon. It was this assumed 10l that has him seen by plenty on this thread as being a superstar.
The RP and connections were equating him to Arkle after his third Gold Cup. To say such nonsense afater a 1/2l defeat of Sir Rembrandt, when it wouldnt put him within 2 1/2stone of the horse was the disgusting height of the hysteria.

A list of the horses that were runner-up to BM
Bindaree
Fatehalkair
Crocadee
Desert Mountain
Commanche COurt
Douze Douze
Marlborough
Truckers Tavern
Le Coudray
Sir Rembrandt
Seebald.

A veritable who's who.

At March, on good ground, he was the best horse for three years in a row. He was the most talented horse in training for one of those years. That is all.

Colonel Sanders · 11-01-2007 02:52PM

A veritable who's who???

How can you say he never ducked any horse? The examples I posted show connections ducked several races. As I said several times Henrietta Knight changed her plans and always changed from running in a race where a horse that had beaten Best mate comprehansively was running.

Jair du cochet destroyed Best mate in the peterborough chase and no matter how the horse was ridden he would not have got near him. Before the race Knight said 'no excuses if we're beaten' so you have to assume fitness wasn't an issue.

Also he was ridden with restraint in his 1st King George to get the trip but was close enough if good enough two out but Florida Pearl had too much toe for him.

Morgans · 11-01-2007 04:01PM

Try reading my posts again Colonel Sanders on Best Mate and try to pick up on the irony.

That said, he didnt duck any horse. He didnt run when conditions werent in his favour, but he took BoS on at Leopardstown twice, and he didnt run in handicaps (why should he?) but I dont know what horses he avoided.

Colonel Sanders · 11-01-2007 04:47PM

sorry, incredibly hung over and my minds not on the job!!!!

Tush · 11-01-2007 04:50PM

Colonel Sanders wrote:

sorry, incredibly hung over and my minds not on the job!!!!

The cursed drink,ye cant beat it.:)

mdwexford · 11-01-2007 07:51PM

Best Mate getting a raw deal as usual

lets recap his defeats over fences,

Nov 2001 - Wahiba Sands - Gave him 20lbs and was beaten by 1/2 length, a very credible run.

December 2001 - Florida Pearl - No shame in being beaten 3/4 length by a top class horse on the top of his game. A lot of good horses in behind such as Bacchanal, First Gold and Legal Right. Probably the strongest King George of the past 7-8 years.

November 2003 - Jair Du Cochet - Running over a trip that was too short, on ground that was too soft, on his first run of the season it was obvious he was not going to win.

December 2004 - Beef Or Salmon - He bashed his head open on the boat on the way over to Ireland but rather than disappoint his fans over here Jim Lewis decided to go ahead and run anyway. He obviously wasnt 100% this day.

He won every other race over fences including 3 gold cups, a king george and an ericsson. Henrietta Knight didnt run the horse enough imo and with a more aggresive trainer he would have won a lot more but perhaps not 3 gold cups.
He is undoubtedly underrated and deserves his place in racing legend as one of the greats.

btw Arkle is the most overrated horse going, he beat a bunch of plodders and his gold cups were 4 horse fields, but that debate is for another day

Morgans · 11-01-2007 08:36PM

You see Best Mate has an excuse for every below par run.

Best Mate was a great horse which was brilliantly campaigned. Any horse than gets 3 Gold Cups in the bag is worth being called great. However, none of horses as talented as him for one reason or another didnt perform at Cheltenham. Of course not BM's fault. Horses as talented as him included Florida Pearl, First Gold, Beef or Salmon, as well as three top class horses died without facing BM, who had luck been on their side would have been involved in BM won Gold Cups - Gloria Victis, Nick Dundee and Jair Du Cochet. As well as that plus injuries to Looks Like Trouble and Cyfor Malta, there was a large gap at the top of the staying chase division.

Arkle was over a stone and a half superior to horse that won gold cups. He gave 2 and a half stone to a horse who beat him 3/4l in the Hennessey. That horse, Stalbridge Colonist was barely beaten in the 1967 Gold Cup. Best Mate was the best steeplechaser in training for one season.

Colonel Sanders · 12-01-2007 02:41PM

Must disagree about his peterborough chase run. the horse was sent off at 4/7 if I remember correctly. In this, the age of the exchanges if the horse was never going to win the exchange sharks and people with connections would have ensured he would not have gone off at this price. Again I will bring up Knights quote about the ground/trip not being in his favour but no excuses if we're beaten.

Don't get me wrong best mate was a class horse. But after his 2nd gold cup the racing post headline read 'A True Great'. Lets not forgte that if you take best mate out of any of his 3 GC wins we would all be moaning how bad a gold cup it was. Best mate was superbly handled by his connections (and ducking the odd decent horse probably added to his longevity) but winning 3 poor gold cups does not make a horse 'a true great'. I don't hear anyone proclaiming beef or salmon a true gtreat eventhough he has 9 grade 1 wins behind him and was never wrapped in cotton wool.

mdwexford · 12-01-2007 07:21PM

can anyone name me some "true greats"??

does a horse have to have been dead for 40+ years to be a true great??

because Moscow Flyer fell 5 or 6 times does that stop him form being a true great??

when was the last time there was a good gold cup??

knighted · 12-01-2007 07:40PM

good comment md-

limestone lad -imo a true great

one of my personal favs is a horse called theatre world -istabraqs stable mate -a joy to watch at cheltenham and always long odds

solerina -what a tough mare

spot the difference -risk of thunder the list goes on for me

i think it is a personal thing what people call a true great and for one reason or another we will all never agree -in my mind i have seen true greats run races in tramore clonmel roscommon etc but a lot of people would think im mad

best mate equals georgie best -superstar (imo)

Morgans · 12-01-2007 08:41PM

Its not cut and dried but anyhorse that achieves an official rating of 175 is a long way towards establishing themsevles as great. If they can hit that mark consistently, then they are copperfastened their position as a great. I think BM hit 176 when winning his second Gold Cup. I think that was it though. Moscow Flyer, Well Chief and Azertyuiop were all over 175, all on more than one occasions. Kauto Star has hit 175+ twice already I think - one at 2m and one at 3m - and chances are that he is already more talented than BM, even if he goes and falls at the first in the Gold Cup. Istabraq, Limestone Lad, Baracouda all qualify in my book. In fact there is probably a disproportionate number of "greats" in the past decade.

Anything that gets over 180, can be called great. The third best NH horse ever was rated 190 by Timeform. Its as good a barometer as you are going to get.

Colonel Sanders · 15-01-2007 11:03AM

mdwexford wrote:

can anyone name me some "true greats"??

does a horse have to have been dead for 40+ years to be a true great??

because Moscow Flyer fell 5 or 6 times does that stop him form being a true great??

when was the last time there was a good gold cup??

I don't think Best Mate's form entitles him to be a true great. I don't think beef ior salmon's form entitles him to be called a true great.

For me a true great is a horse that concistently outclasses top class horses ala Moscow Flyer. He was the King in what was undoubtedly a golden age of 2m chasers. Best mate's career was a great series of training performances IMO.

mdwexford · 15-01-2007 06:36PM

Best Mate won the biggest race of the season 3 years running, the first horse in 30+ years to do so, if that doesnt make him a great the selection process must be questionable.

So in your opinion i presume there have only been about 5 true greats??

Morgans · 15-01-2007 10:54PM

Just as it wrong for his detractors to knock the achievement of winning three Gold Cups, its wrong for his supporters to say that simply because he won three Gold Cups, automatically makes him a true great. Unfortunately, you often find more out about horses in defeat, and the fact that it was Commanche Court, Truckers Tavern, and Sir Rembrandt finished second to him (pretty much to the pin of his collar on two occasions) suggests that he was not an all time great.

He was on a par with horses such as One Man, Florida Pearl, Looks Like Trouble, See More Business, (possibly inferior to many on that list) and not as good as Moscow Flyer, Azertyuiop, Well Chief, Kauto Star possibly even Carvills Hill.

He is in the top 20/25 horses of all time, and there is no shame in that.

purple'n'gold · 15-01-2007 10:58PM

mdwexford wrote:

Best Mate won the biggest race of the season 3 years running, the first horse in 30+ years to do so, if that doesnt make him a great the selection process must be questionable.

So in your opinion i presume there have only been about 5 true greats??

I agree with you, some people are very hard to please. He won 3 gold cups, Florida Pearl was a very good staying chaser and he couldnt manage it. He just didnt get the final 1/4 of a mile up the hill.

Tush · 15-01-2007 11:03PM

Carvills Hill,now theres a flash back to the past.

Tush · 15-01-2007 11:13PM

Tush wrote:

Carvills Hill,now theres a flash back to the past.

Superb jumper of a fence.:rolleyes:

purple'n'gold · 15-01-2007 11:20PM

If Kauto Star jumps in cheltenham like he did in kempton, he won't get home.

Was Best Mate Over Rated?

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