Was Best Mate Over Rated?

Colonel Sanders

I talked about this in a seperate thread (somewhat off the subject) and it got me to start a thread on its own.

Best Mate was without doubt a very high class horse but an all time great? NO!! IMO the horse was a cheltenham specialist who's form away from prestbury park was at least a stone behind his cheltenham runs and in winning 3 gold cups beat very little of merit and any time a decent horse beat him connections dodged that horse subsequently. The more I look through his form the more holes I find in it.

Best Mate was being campaigned for a tilt at the RSA hurdle in 2000, monsignor absolutely destroyed him in the tolworth hurdle which resulted in him being rerouted to the supremem novices race.

Florida pearl beat him fair and square in the 2000 king george but the excuses flowed afterwards, if McCoy had ridden him for stamina rather than to get the trip blah blah blah blah...... Nonsense IMO, he was close enough if good enough 2 out and couldn't pass one of ireland's finest chasers who never got the credit he deserved in england because he never won a gold cup.

Before the peterborough chase in 2003 Henrietta Knight said in the racaingpost that the trip and ground were not ideal but there's be 'no excuses if we're beaten'. Jair du cochet beats him easily and the excuses begin to flow immediately afterwards. Knights states that best mate will run in the king george as long as the word 'soft' is not in the going description. It wasn't, but she decides to bring him over to ireland to run on good to soft ground. I know edredon bleu won the king george but sent off a 20/1 shot it was hardly a stroke no, was it?

In 3 gold cups best mate beat the equine heavywweights that were commanche court, marlboro, trcukers tavern, harbour pilot and sir rembrant. Hardly arkle like form now is it?

My conclusion about this horse is that he was a very good, cheltenham specialist who was overhyped by connections who then took actions to ensure the bubble they had built up was not burst for as long as possible.

Feel free to comment, I await a lot of abuse

Morgans

Was he overrated by official handicappers, ratings experts like RPR and Timeform - No,

Overrated by the general racing public who dont know any better - Yes.

fr wishy washy

Morgans wrote:

Was he overrated by official handicappers, ratings experts like RPR and Timeform - No,

Overrated by the general racing public who dont know any better - Yes.

Agreed,he was a very good horse but not one of the all time greats.

ChuckProphet

Colonel Sanders wrote:

and in winning 3 gold cups beat very little of merit

u could say the same about istabraq and his 3 ch's

BobbyD10

The way I see it is that according to many experts Cheltenham is the Mecca of horse racing, thats where everyone wishes to ride,own or train winners.

Best Mate turned up on those three occasions and won which for that he deserves alot of credit.

And like football the term all time greats does be banded around very easily, for any horse to win three Gold Cups is a great achievement regardless of the opposition, they still have to be won, the horse has to be sound which is not easy and has to perform which he did. Only time will tell if he is truly a great but I believe he has gone along way to realising that title.

fr wishy washy

BobbyD10 wrote:

Only time will tell if he is truly a great but I believe he has gone along way to realising that title.

Would not deny him his credit for winning the Gold Cups but the public(in particular the English) got a bit carried away with their rating of him.He was beaten too many times (20 runs-12 wins from Jan 2000 on) to be a true great imo.

scojones

I'm sure Best Mate is over rated by some people. Every horse is over rated by someone or another. I don't think Best Mate is over rated by the general racing public.
Whenever I have talked to someone about Best Mate, it has always been about its achievements, nothing more. How this is over rating Best Mate... I've no idea. Best Mate was managed brilliantly. Trainers are avoiding Kauto Star, why does it matter if Best Mate avoided some horses who were clearly better than it? That's good management, and no matter what way you want to look at it, it won three gold cups and should get the credit it deserves for doing so. I haven't heard anyone saying it was the best horse ever, and if its connections have said or are saying this then I think that's simply their emotional attachment to the horse talking. To them, maybe, it was the best horse ever but that's because they were so close to it - and in their eyes they will never have another horse as good as Best Mate, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Tush

ChuckProphet wrote:

u could say the same about istabraq and his 3 ch's

Wont have you putting my Best Mate down Chuck.;)

fade2black

Every horse needs to be taken on its own merit. I think with NH horses there's always the danger that they will all be compared to Arkle. Maybe Best Mate was over rated by the Brits because they were desperate for a real jumping superstar?

Best Mate was a great horse, and his cause was greatly helped by a trainer and owner who embraced the public as much as the public embraced their horse. Great horses, nay, legends are not always remembered by what they achieved, but how they achieved it.

knighted_1

sjones wrote:

I'm sure Best Mate is over rated by some people. Every horse is over rated by someone or another. I don't think Best Mate is over rated by the general racing public.
Whenever I have talked to someone about Best Mate, it has always been about its achievements, nothing more. How this is over rating Best Mate... I've no idea. Best Mate was managed brilliantly. Trainers are avoiding Kauto Star, why does it matter if Best Mate avoided some horses who were clearly better than it? That's good management, and no matter what way you want to look at it, it won three gold cups and should get the credit it deserves for doing so. I haven't heard anyone saying it was the best horse ever, and if its connections have said or are saying this then I think that's simply their emotional attachment to the horse talking. To them, maybe, it was the best horse ever but that's because they were so close to it - and in their eyes they will never have another horse as good as Best Mate, and there's nothing wrong with that.

excellently put-

RichieLawlor

All time great, debatable, Best Jumper of a fence ive ever seen, Definitely

Epicpriest

Ever see Djeddah jumping? God dam that horse knew how to get over em.

Corben Dallas

Dont think he was over-rated, three Gold Cups speaks for itself. However he was never really tested against the other top quality horses, because his owners/trainers didnt run him often enough and maybe theother trainers with the quality horses of that time should have put entries in to take on BM.

One thing i will say is that in 2 out of the 3 Gold Cups he won them with stunning runs easily beating/leaving behind the entire field. He was different class to all his opposition in his Gold Cup wins.

Morgans

Couple of misconceptions that have been raised here. Firstly, BM didnt hide from any race. It was a prep in the autumn, the Ericsson or the King George, and Cheltenham. Horses, and especially top class horses do not go in search of challenges. If the best horses turn up on the big races, so be it. Best Mate was a very good horse, but it was assumed by plenty in the media and by his supporters that he was 10lbs better than anything around. On the basis of a 12l defeat of Truckers Tavern and a 20l defeat of Desert Mountain.

Best Mate didnt avoided horses, why the original poster began the thread was the fact that when he did run and get beaten, there was always some excuse at the ready. He was ridden poorly when defeated by Florida Pearl - who was officially the best chaser in that year (ahead of BM by 1lb) when beaten by Jair Du Cochet, and when beaten by Beef or Salmon. It was this assumed 10l that has him seen by plenty on this thread as being a superstar.
The RP and connections were equating him to Arkle after his third Gold Cup. To say such nonsense afater a 1/2l defeat of Sir Rembrandt, when it wouldnt put him within 2 1/2stone of the horse was the disgusting height of the hysteria.

A list of the horses that were runner-up to BM
Bindaree
Fatehalkair
Crocadee
Desert Mountain
Commanche COurt
Douze Douze
Marlborough
Truckers Tavern
Le Coudray
Sir Rembrandt
Seebald.

A veritable who's who.

At March, on good ground, he was the best horse for three years in a row. He was the most talented horse in training for one of those years. That is all.

Colonel Sanders

A veritable who's who???

How can you say he never ducked any horse? The examples I posted show connections ducked several races. As I said several times Henrietta Knight changed her plans and always changed from running in a race where a horse that had beaten Best mate comprehansively was running.

Jair du cochet destroyed Best mate in the peterborough chase and no matter how the horse was ridden he would not have got near him. Before the race Knight said 'no excuses if we're beaten' so you have to assume fitness wasn't an issue.

Also he was ridden with restraint in his 1st King George to get the trip but was close enough if good enough two out but Florida Pearl had too much toe for him.

Morgans

Try reading my posts again Colonel Sanders on Best Mate and try to pick up on the irony.

That said, he didnt duck any horse. He didnt run when conditions werent in his favour, but he took BoS on at Leopardstown twice, and he didnt run in handicaps (why should he?) but I dont know what horses he avoided.

Colonel Sanders

sorry, incredibly hung over and my minds not on the job!!!!

Tush

Colonel Sanders wrote:

sorry, incredibly hung over and my minds not on the job!!!!

The cursed drink,ye cant beat it.:)

mdwexford

Best Mate getting a raw deal as usual

lets recap his defeats over fences,

Nov 2001 - Wahiba Sands - Gave him 20lbs and was beaten by 1/2 length, a very credible run.

December 2001 - Florida Pearl - No shame in being beaten 3/4 length by a top class horse on the top of his game. A lot of good horses in behind such as Bacchanal, First Gold and Legal Right. Probably the strongest King George of the past 7-8 years.

November 2003 - Jair Du Cochet - Running over a trip that was too short, on ground that was too soft, on his first run of the season it was obvious he was not going to win.

December 2004 - Beef Or Salmon - He bashed his head open on the boat on the way over to Ireland but rather than disappoint his fans over here Jim Lewis decided to go ahead and run anyway. He obviously wasnt 100% this day.

He won every other race over fences including 3 gold cups, a king george and an ericsson. Henrietta Knight didnt run the horse enough imo and with a more aggresive trainer he would have won a lot more but perhaps not 3 gold cups.
He is undoubtedly underrated and deserves his place in racing legend as one of the greats.

btw Arkle is the most overrated horse going, he beat a bunch of plodders and his gold cups were 4 horse fields, but that debate is for another day

Morgans

You see Best Mate has an excuse for every below par run.

Best Mate was a great horse which was brilliantly campaigned. Any horse than gets 3 Gold Cups in the bag is worth being called great. However, none of horses as talented as him for one reason or another didnt perform at Cheltenham. Of course not BM's fault. Horses as talented as him included Florida Pearl, First Gold, Beef or Salmon, as well as three top class horses died without facing BM, who had luck been on their side would have been involved in BM won Gold Cups - Gloria Victis, Nick Dundee and Jair Du Cochet. As well as that plus injuries to Looks Like Trouble and Cyfor Malta, there was a large gap at the top of the staying chase division.

Arkle was over a stone and a half superior to horse that won gold cups. He gave 2 and a half stone to a horse who beat him 3/4l in the Hennessey. That horse, Stalbridge Colonist was barely beaten in the 1967 Gold Cup. Best Mate was the best steeplechaser in training for one season.

Colonel Sanders

Must disagree about his peterborough chase run. the horse was sent off at 4/7 if I remember correctly. In this, the age of the exchanges if the horse was never going to win the exchange sharks and people with connections would have ensured he would not have gone off at this price. Again I will bring up Knights quote about the ground/trip not being in his favour but no excuses if we're beaten.

Don't get me wrong best mate was a class horse. But after his 2nd gold cup the racing post headline read 'A True Great'. Lets not forgte that if you take best mate out of any of his 3 GC wins we would all be moaning how bad a gold cup it was. Best mate was superbly handled by his connections (and ducking the odd decent horse probably added to his longevity) but winning 3 poor gold cups does not make a horse 'a true great'. I don't hear anyone proclaiming beef or salmon a true gtreat eventhough he has 9 grade 1 wins behind him and was never wrapped in cotton wool.

mdwexford

can anyone name me some "true greats"??

does a horse have to have been dead for 40+ years to be a true great??

because Moscow Flyer fell 5 or 6 times does that stop him form being a true great??

when was the last time there was a good gold cup??

knighted

good comment md-

limestone lad -imo a true great

one of my personal favs is a horse called theatre world -istabraqs stable mate -a joy to watch at cheltenham and always long odds

solerina -what a tough mare

spot the difference -risk of thunder the list goes on for me

i think it is a personal thing what people call a true great and for one reason or another we will all never agree -in my mind i have seen true greats run races in tramore clonmel roscommon etc but a lot of people would think im mad

best mate equals georgie best -superstar (imo)

Morgans

Its not cut and dried but anyhorse that achieves an official rating of 175 is a long way towards establishing themsevles as great. If they can hit that mark consistently, then they are copperfastened their position as a great. I think BM hit 176 when winning his second Gold Cup. I think that was it though. Moscow Flyer, Well Chief and Azertyuiop were all over 175, all on more than one occasions. Kauto Star has hit 175+ twice already I think - one at 2m and one at 3m - and chances are that he is already more talented than BM, even if he goes and falls at the first in the Gold Cup. Istabraq, Limestone Lad, Baracouda all qualify in my book. In fact there is probably a disproportionate number of "greats" in the past decade.

Anything that gets over 180, can be called great. The third best NH horse ever was rated 190 by Timeform. Its as good a barometer as you are going to get.

Colonel Sanders

mdwexford wrote:

can anyone name me some "true greats"??

does a horse have to have been dead for 40+ years to be a true great??

because Moscow Flyer fell 5 or 6 times does that stop him form being a true great??

when was the last time there was a good gold cup??

I don't think Best Mate's form entitles him to be a true great. I don't think beef ior salmon's form entitles him to be called a true great.

For me a true great is a horse that concistently outclasses top class horses ala Moscow Flyer. He was the King in what was undoubtedly a golden age of 2m chasers. Best mate's career was a great series of training performances IMO.

mdwexford

Best Mate won the biggest race of the season 3 years running, the first horse in 30+ years to do so, if that doesnt make him a great the selection process must be questionable.

So in your opinion i presume there have only been about 5 true greats??

Morgans

Just as it wrong for his detractors to knock the achievement of winning three Gold Cups, its wrong for his supporters to say that simply because he won three Gold Cups, automatically makes him a true great. Unfortunately, you often find more out about horses in defeat, and the fact that it was Commanche Court, Truckers Tavern, and Sir Rembrandt finished second to him (pretty much to the pin of his collar on two occasions) suggests that he was not an all time great.

He was on a par with horses such as One Man, Florida Pearl, Looks Like Trouble, See More Business, (possibly inferior to many on that list) and not as good as Moscow Flyer, Azertyuiop, Well Chief, Kauto Star possibly even Carvills Hill.

He is in the top 20/25 horses of all time, and there is no shame in that.

purple'n'gold

mdwexford wrote:

Best Mate won the biggest race of the season 3 years running, the first horse in 30+ years to do so, if that doesnt make him a great the selection process must be questionable.

So in your opinion i presume there have only been about 5 true greats??

I agree with you, some people are very hard to please. He won 3 gold cups, Florida Pearl was a very good staying chaser and he couldnt manage it. He just didnt get the final 1/4 of a mile up the hill.

Tush

Carvills Hill,now theres a flash back to the past.

Tush

Tush wrote:

Carvills Hill,now theres a flash back to the past.

Superb jumper of a fence.:rolleyes:

purple'n'gold

If Kauto Star jumps in cheltenham like he did in kempton, he won't get home.

mdwexford

Morgans wrote:

Just as it wrong for his detractors to knock the achievement of winning three Gold Cups, its wrong for his supporters to say that simply because he won three Gold Cups, automatically makes him a true great. Unfortunately, you often find more out about horses in defeat, and the fact that it was Commanche Court, Truckers Tavern, and Sir Rembrandt finished second to him (pretty much to the pin of his collar on two occasions) suggests that he was not an all time great.

He was on a par with horses such as One Man, Florida Pearl, Looks Like Trouble, See More Business, (possibly inferior to many on that list) and not as good as Moscow Flyer, Azertyuiop, Well Chief, Kauto Star possibly even Carvills Hill.

He is in the top 20/25 horses of all time, and there is no shame in that.

But can you be an all time great without actually achieving something??
Well Chief may be a top drawer performer but can he be an all time great when his biggest win is a Victor Chandler/Celebration Chase??
Not his fault he was around in a golden era for 2 miles chasers but nonetheless a good OR is not enough to rank him above Best Mate imo. People can go on about who came second to BM in his Gold Cups and while its true the form isnt out of this world he was there to be shot at by the top 3 mile chasers around and for 3 years no-one could dethrone him.

Morgans

Well Chief won an arkle as well, possibly the best Arkle ever, but did post several top class performances. And was unfortunate to bump into some top class opposition.

Its a fair point that you are making, but i dont think its enough to say that simply because he won the race that he was automatically the best, its too simplistic not to analyse the form.

Otherwise you are saying that Cool Dawn and Norton's Coin was as good as Burrough Hill Lad, Mill House, and Desert Orhcid in that they won the Gold Cup once. Its not the case. Looking at the roll of honor of the Gold Cup is a simplistic method of judging true great. BM won a series of poor gold cups. In one of them he looked majestic, and it was his best ever performance.

What grates withe me, is that when he was didnt perform to that level, each other occasion, there was always an excuse.

Carvills Hill couldnt jump well, but probably the best galloper to run since Arkle. Welsh National performance was mindblowing.

keepitquiet

purplengold wrote:

If Kauto Star jumps in cheltenham like he did in kempton, he won't get home.

i think everyone is already agreed with this:)

Morgans

Not me. I think the horses jumping is a complete red herring.

fade2black

Of course it's not a red herring. He will definitely have to up his jumping game if he's to justify his current price.

keepitquiet

as far as best mate is concerned i think it will remembered as a great because of winning 3 gold cups but equally important gaining public love and support. the horse is going to be known to all in the future... i mean theres a best mate enclosure, new ppl to racing are going to be told who best mate is and the fame will probably make him be remembered as a great. people in 50 years time, if you say best mate, will reply winner of 3 gold cups... people forget the other races. is the horse a great in my opinion. thats a difficult one. i think any horse that runs 6 hurdles comes 1st or 2nd and then goes on to run 16 chases wins 11 but comes 2nd in four and is only never came 2nd or first when it PU and collapsed. i think that any horse who can achieve this and not have what people accept as a 'bad day out' must have been special even thought people will moan about opposition and try to discredit the horse to win one gold cup is special, so to win 3 you must have beaten high class horses. a great... yes (in my opinion)

Colonel Sanders

mdwexford wrote:

Best Mate won the biggest race of the season 3 years running, the first horse in 30+ years to do so, if that doesnt make him a great the selection process must be questionable.

So in your opinion i presume there have only been about 5 true greats??

How can a race that has been so lacking in quality over the past 7 or 8 yrs be classed as the biggest race of the year? A race where 150ish rated handicappers regularly fill the placings? The quality in the champion chase has been of a far greater standing and IMO is a far better and more important race. Ditto the champion hurlde over the last 3-4 yrs. Anyway thats a different debate.

As I keep saying best mates carreer was a great training performance but beating the like of truckers tavern, harbour pilot, sir rembrant et al. were not great performances.

Morgans

fade2black wrote:

Of course it's not a red herring. He will definitely have to up his jumping game if he's to justify his current price.

.
Its a different debate to the one on this thread, but if you want to start a new thread on it... anyway, shorthand, I think jumping is one of Kauto Star's positives. I prefer horses who are brave when jumping. If he fails in the Gold Cup, i dont think it will be because of his jumping. And Cheltenham's fences arent nearly as stiff as they are reputed to be. Most of the falls come from horses going faster than they want to go.

Horses like Take The Stand have blundered their way around from fence to fence in the gold cup and finished close up. Cornish Rebel walked through the fourth last but stayed standing. Rule Supreme and One Knight have won recent Sun Alliance Chases. I think there were three fallers in the last five years of the GOld Cup, one of those was a novice. We'll see. Whether he is value or not at his current price. That is a completely differnet argument.

mdwexford

Colonel Sanders wrote:

How can a race that has been so lacking in quality over the past 7 or 8 yrs be classed as the biggest race of the year? A race where 150ish rated handicappers regularly fill the placings? The quality in the champion chase has been of a far greater standing and IMO is a far better and more important race. Ditto the champion hurlde over the last 3-4 yrs. Anyway thats a different debate.

As I keep saying best mates carreer was a great training performance but beating the like of truckers tavern, harbour pilot, sir rembrant et al. were not great performances.

you ask any owner what race they would like to win and they will all say the Gold Cup. Its definitely the most important race of the season.

Personally though i look forward to the CH and CC more