Scared of theism

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 14-11-2006 06:26PM

umm

god is the supreme commander and creator of the universe and all living things therein.

god is not an emotion.

you just confused yourself.

John Wine · 14-11-2006 07:07PM

Mordeth wrote:

umm

god is the supreme commander and creator of the universe and all living things therein.

god is not an emotion.

you just confused yourself.

Welcome back Mordeth, my belief is an emotion but I accept it as a valid belief. Hope that makes sense.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 14-11-2006 07:10PM

no, it does not.

I hope someday you will understand why.

Dades · 14-11-2006 07:11PM

Mordeth wrote:

god is the supreme commander and creator of the universe and all living things therein.

You make him sound so...

John Wine · 14-11-2006 07:12PM

Mordeth wrote:

no, it does not.

I hope someday you will understand why.

I follow my deepest emotions. Do you?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 14-11-2006 07:17PM

generally no, when i am angry I try to calm myself down and think about the proper way to act.. I fail alot but i try.

when I'm lustful I don't go follow my 'emotion' to it's logical conclusion and rape some woman, I have a ****. it's great fun.

I sometimes get a feeling that there is an intelligence behind the universe, that there are spirits and angels and such but then I remember I've taken a pscychadelic and my brain is having a spastic attack.

John Wine · 14-11-2006 08:55PM

Mordeth wrote:

generally no, when i am angry I try to calm myself down and think about the proper way to act.. I fail alot but i try.

when I'm lustful I don't go follow my 'emotion' to it's logical conclusion and rape some woman, I have a ****. it's great fun.

Those emotions result in negative harm to others it is quite easy to deduce that you are better off minimizing their impact on your life as your life gets worse.
Furthermore, they are bursts, not something I would call deep or innate.
You loose your temper but it may only a hour or so. You see a hot bird, it will only last a finite time, irrespective if you relieve yourself or not.

I sometimes get a feeling that there is an intelligence behind the universe, that there are spirits and angels and such but then I remember I've taken a pscychadelic and my brain is having a spastic attack.

Yes your brain is having a spastic attack after taking a pscychadelic.

Zillah · 15-11-2006 12:59AM

robindch wrote:

> Y'know what always struck me as weird about that? Why did he say cross?
> He hadn't be crucified yet, why would a cross be a symbol?

Interesting. I hadn't thought of that.

One could argue that it would have been understood as the mark of a convicted criminal at that time in the Roman Empire

Actually crucifiction was a penalty generally used for insurgents/rebels. Not odd at all if you think about it; Lining a road with 20,000 corpses (Spartacus) is a good message to anyone else thinking of rebelling.

So its even easier to argue that Jesus may have been aluding to the fact that his followers would need to defy Roman authority. There's a school of thought that Jesus was crucified as an insurgent threat after he smashed up the temple and got away with it.

John Wine wrote:

I believe in God because:
- It is an emotion. Emotions have been proven to exist as a neuro-chemical response in human beings to certain stimuli.
- I have felt it. Humans feel emotions and therefore me feeling it is evidence for its existence.
- I have seen the actions other people take because of love. The result implies the cause.

Your brain is absolutely broken and I wash my hands of you and your ridiculous conciousness.

Dave! · 15-11-2006 02:01AM

Zillah wrote:

Your brain is absolutely broken and I wash my hands of you and your ridiculous conciousness.

Yeah agreed.

What kind of stupid reasoning is that?

I don't think that anyone of even moderate intelligence could believe in god for the reasons you've provided, so I'm going to assume that (a) you are taking the p*ss, or (b) you aren't of moderate intelligence.

Just my opinion!

Zillah · 15-11-2006 02:38AM

DaveMcG wrote:

(b) you aren't of moderate intelligence.

Thats the weird thing, aside from his insane God-logic he actually seems relatively intelligent.

Dades · 15-11-2006 10:41AM

DaveMcG wrote:

I don't think that anyone of even moderate intelligence could believe in god for the reasons you've provided

Before we judge let's not forget people have very different ideas of what "God" actually is.

5uspect · 15-11-2006 12:03PM

But thats the problem, Its at the stage where God is anything we wish it to be. The Biblical god is no longer seen by most theologians to be the intelligent entity that created and commands the world speaking to his chosen people punishing and slaughtering the unworthy. God has been defined so vaguely that the concept is outside criticism (other than the idea is now meaningless).

John Wine saying god is emotion is like that tosser John Quinn from the indo "debating" with Dawkins on the radio with Tuberity the other week saying that matter exists hence god exists validating any belief we wish to conjour up. This is utter nonsense.

How do you correlate any religious teaching ever with this wishy washy vague idea that the emotions we feel (which we know are a result of chemicals interacting in our brains) is god?

This is one thing I cannot understand. We don't know the origin of the universe beyond the big bang (I'm wary of saying before the big bang) so this story from the bronze age is adequate as an unquestioned solution but we'll only take these bits of the story ignore that nasty business with the killing and then twist the idea so those nasty logical types cannot possibly disprove it.

The very idea of convincing yourself that god exists on a personal whim without the slightest need to question your personal judgment is lost on me. You must appreciate that your mind is a machine evolved to survive in a particular environment it does not necessarily have to tell you the truth or give you accurate representations of the real world. You must doubt everything you see hear and feel as these are just the interpretations of your senses. That is why I trust science, it at least tries to eliminate or reduce these potential mental lies. Religion and blind faith are the opposite in that they positively wallow in it.

Scofflaw · 15-11-2006 12:20PM

5uspect wrote:

But thats the problem, Its at the stage where God is anything we wish it to be. The Biblical god is no longer seen by most theologians to be the intelligent entity that created and commands the world speaking to his chosen people punishing and slaughtering the unworthy. God has been defined so vaguely that the concept is outside criticism (other than the idea is now meaningless).

John Wine saying god is emotion is like that tosser John Quinn from the indo "debating" with Dawkins on the radio with Tuberity the other week saying that matter exists hence god exists validating any belief we wish to conjour up. This is utter nonsense.

How do you correlate any religious teaching ever with this wishy washy vague idea that the emotions we feel (which we know are a result of chemicals interacting in our brains) is god?

Easy. Follow these steps:

1. say "you should do X, it's in the Bible"
2. when challenged as to why, state impossibility of disproving God
3. allow definition of God to become incredibly vague to allow him to slip past logical problems
4. satisfy self atheist cannot disprove incredibly vague God
5. state that as God cannot be disproved, he exists
6. state that as God exists , we should do as He commands
7. repeat step 1

Vast logical chasms, unbridgeable abysses of unreason, all happily leapt over in single bounds of assertion. Simple when you don't try to think.

cordially,
Scofflaw

John Wine · 15-11-2006 12:23PM

Just looking at some of the recent comments:

1. [Zillah] Your brain is absolutely broken and I wash my hands of you and your ridiculous conciousness.
2. [DaveMcG]
I don't think that anyone of even moderate intelligence could believe in god for the reasons you've provided
3. [5uspect]
John Wine saying god is emotion is like that tosser John Quinn...

Several atheists think they have a monopoly on reason, but this is not reason, it is intolerance and biggotted. This brings me back to the OP, why do some of you guys get so freaked out?

Sometimes, I feel you fear diversity.

Existence is a deep philsophical concept. Existence for me, may be non existence for you, but non existence for you does mean non existence for me.

I belief God exists, but I accept I could be wrong, just as Einstein was wrong about a static universe.

There are several other places where you do not apply strict logic to your reason. Just for example, 5uspect you say: 'on a personal whim',
how do you deduce my feelings are a whim? They are not, they are deep, instrinsic and innate. I cannot ignore or avoid them.
This seems like a straw man. Again, following Dawkins debating tactics.
I trust science, most of it anyway, but it doesn't answer important questions for me.

Scofflaw, you are misunderstanding general Christianity and describing extreme fundamentalism.
The majority of Christians do not obey the Bible literally. There are parts in the Bible for example about stoning Children, I don't know any Christian who would believe this.
My view is: part of faith / theism / christianity is to question everything in the Bible.
Have a look at this for example:
http://www.westarinstitute.org/Jesus_Seminar/jesus_seminar.html

PS
5uspect, it's David Quinn not John Quinn.

5uspect wrote:

But thats the problem, Its at the stage where God is anything we wish it to be. The Biblical god is no longer seen by most theologians to be the intelligent entity that created and commands the world speaking to his chosen people punishing and slaughtering the unworthy. God has been defined so vaguely that the concept is outside criticism (other than the idea is now meaningless).

John Wine saying god is emotion is like that tosser John Quinn from the indo "debating" with Dawkins on the radio with Tuberity the other week saying that matter exists hence god exists validating any belief we wish to conjour up. This is utter nonsense.

How do you correlate any religious teaching ever with this wishy washy vague idea that the emotions we feel (which we know are a result of chemicals interacting in our brains) is god?

This is one thing I cannot understand. We don't know the origin of the universe beyond the big bang (I'm wary of saying before the big bang) so this story from the bronze age is adequate as an unquestioned solution but we'll only take these bits of the story ignore that nasty business with the killing and then twist the idea so those nasty logical types cannot possibly disprove it.

The very idea of convincing yourself that god exists on a personal whim without the slightest need to question your personal judgment is lost on me. You must appreciate that your mind is a machine evolved to survive in a particular environment it does not necessarily have to tell you the truth or give you accurate representations of the real world. You must doubt everything you see hear and feel as these are just the interpretations of your senses. That is why I trust science, it at least tries to eliminate or reduce these potential mental lies. Religion and blind faith are the opposite in that they positively wallow in it.

Dades · 15-11-2006 12:52PM

John Wine wrote:

Several atheists think they have a monopoly on reason, but this is not reason, it is intolerance and biggotted. This brings me back to the OP, why do some of you guys get so freaked out?

To try and clarify, I don't think the reactions are related to atheism as such. The posters you mention are arguing that they are using logic, and you are not, which is not to say they have a monopoly in reason.

And again, "freaked out" is a very inaccurate description of what you are witnessing.

John Wine · 15-11-2006 12:54PM

The Atheist wrote:

The posters you mention are arguing that they are using logic, and you are not, which is not to say they have a monopoly in reason.

Well I would disagree with that. I have pointed several examples where they have not been using logic throughout this debate.

Dave! · 15-11-2006 01:00PM

John Wine wrote:

I trust science, most of it anyway, but it doesn't answer important questions for me.

See, you're showing us time and again the reasons why you believe in a creator and so on.

You just said you trust science. So why do you think that there is a scientific explaination for most things in the world, yet the origin of the universe is somehow exempt from this?

You're showing your petty human psychology here by saying "oh, this hasn't been explained adequately -- yet -- so it must have been god". Yet you fail to appreciate that historically this was the case for just about EVERYTHING until it was explained.

But because it's such an important question, you can't simply settle for not knowing -- you have to project a ridiculous explaination onto it. What's more, you then have to buy into a book written 2 millenia ago, AND the teachings of a church that has changed through the years and which has political history entangled in it.

You're showing a weakness in my opinion. There's nothing wrong with weakness, don't get me wrong. But you're not only showing it, you're then demonstrating that weakness to the whole world! You just can't settle for not understanding something.

Well I can. I'm happy to not know, because I know that there are intelligent and well trained people who are constantly trying to find the answers to these questions -- just like there always has been.

Some people are just too impatient.

Zombrex · 15-11-2006 01:08PM

John Wine wrote:

I believe in God because:
- It is an emotion. Emotions have been proven to exist as a neuro-chemical response in human beings to certain stimuli.
- I have felt it. Humans feel emotions and therefore me feeling it is evidence for its existence.
- I have seen the actions other people take because of love. The result implies the cause.

I suppose those are all as valid reasons to believe in God as any of the other nonsense that is posted on the Christian and Islamic forums, better than "Because the Bible says so" arguments I guess.

I would point out though that neither you "feeling" God, or the fact that emotions do exist, are evidence that God exists.

Me feeling that I look really good in my new leather pants doesn't mean I actually do. I might, but then again I might not. My feeling that yes this week I am finially going to win the Lotto certainly isn't evidence that I actually am going to win the Lotto. I might, but then again I might not. The feeling I have is largely irrelivent to if I will or will not win

Would you take someone seriously if the stated they believe they are going to win this weeks Lotto and that the solid evidence they have for this is that they had a deep feeling that it will happen?

Would you go "wow, that is quite a convincing position"? Or would you go "you had a feeling?? Don't be silly" and walk off?

You say that atheists should not be so quick to dismiss your feeling about God. Why? Why not dismiss it. It is a feeling, a feeling doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. I had a feeling that my bus would be late today so I went to the Spar shop only to watch my bus go flying by. Everytime I buy a Lotto scratch card I have a feeling that I'm going to win the €10,000.

Theists always seem to think that their feeling towards God is some how much more special and important than any other feeling towards anything. Why?

As I am constantly telling theists (every second post it feels like ... of course that isn't evidence that it is every second post ...) never underestimate the minds ability to trick itself.

John Wine · 15-11-2006 01:09PM

DaveMcG wrote:

You just said you trust science. So why do you think that there is a scientific explaination for most things in the world, yet the origin of the universe is somehow exempt from this?

There are many things exempt from the remit of Science and always will be.
The God questions is always outside the remit of Science as far as I am concerned and I see no reason why both can coexist. I think Le Maitre and Copernicus proof this.

DaveMcG wrote:

You're showing your petty human psychology here by saying "oh, this hasn't been explained adequately -- yet -- so it must have been god". Yet you fail to appreciate that historically this was the case for just about EVERYTHING until it was explained.

No, my belief in God derives more an innate intrinsic wonderful feeling.
It is driven more emotion not lack of Scientifuc reason.

DaveMcG wrote:

What's more, you then have to buy into a book written 2 millenia ago, AND the teachings of a church that has changed through the years and which has political history entangled in it.

No, my belief in God derives more an innate intrinsic wonderful feeling.
It is not driven by ancient literature. I see that only as a good reference point on how my ancestors felt about it.

DaveMcG wrote:

You're showing a weakness in my opinion. There's nothing wrong with weakness, don't get me wrong. But you're not only showing it, you're then demonstrating that weakness to the whole world! You just can't settle for not understanding something.

You are using rhetoric implying I am weak. How do you define weakness? Someone who doesn't agree with you?

DaveMcG wrote:

Some people are just too impatient.

Poor argument, brushing in wide strokes, we're not all the same, even within theism / Christianity.

15-11-2006 01:10PM

DaveMcG wrote:

You're showing your petty human psychology here by saying "oh, this hasn't been explained adequately -- yet -- so it must have been god". Yet you fail to appreciate that historically this was the case for just about EVERYTHING until it was explained.

Who stole the cookies from the cookie jar?
I don't know so it must be GOD!

John Wine · 15-11-2006 01:12PM

Wicknight wrote:

I suppose those are all as valid reasons to believe in God as any of the other nonsense that is posted on the Christian and Islamic forums, better than "Because the Bible says so" arguments I guess.

I would point out though that neither you "feeling" God, or the fact that emotions do exist, are evidence that God exists.

Me feeling that I look really good in my new leather pants doesn't mean I actually do. I might, but then again I might not.

As I am constantly telling theists (every second post it feels like ... of course that isn't evidence that it is every second post ...) never underestimate the minds ability to trick itself.

Yes you are correct about the mind's ability to trick itself. But my feelings seem to be endemic in the human race, irrespective of time, irrespective of literature.
As I said, existence is a deep philosophical concept. In this case, existence for me is obviously non existence for you however non existence for you is not non existence for me.

John Wine · 15-11-2006 01:14PM

bluewolf wrote:

Who stole the cookies from the cookie jar?
I don't know so it must be GOD!

Childish.

15-11-2006 01:16PM

John Wine wrote:

Childish.

Indeed, stealing cookies usually is childish

But my feelings seem to be endemic in the human race, irrespective of time, irrespective of literature.

That still doesn't mean they're right

Zombrex · 15-11-2006 01:56PM

John Wine wrote:

Yes you are correct about the mind's ability to trick itself. But my feelings seem to be endemic in the human race, irrespective of time, irrespective of literature.

Not really because then everyone would be the same religion.

The fact that they are not is more reason to think that the "feeling" of God is actually a trick of the human mind, since no two feelings appear to the same, just as no two people or culture are the same.

John Wine wrote:

In this case, existence for me is obviously non existence for you however non existence for you is not non existence for me.

Er ok... fair enough I guess ...

Scofflaw · 15-11-2006 02:02PM

John Wine wrote:

Scofflaw, you are misunderstanding general Christianity and describing extreme fundamentalism.
The majority of Christians do not obey the Bible literally. There are parts in the Bible for example about stoning Children, I don't know any Christian who would believe this.

Er, no. You're making another huge leap. All Christians follow the Bible, don't they? If not, why would you consider yourself Christian? Hence step 1, which doesn't require a literal reading of the Bible, or any such fundamentalism - it applies equally to "love thy neighbour" as to "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live".

Possibly you're unable to follow the logic?

cordially,
Scofflaw

aidan24326 · 15-11-2006 03:04PM

John Wine wrote:

No, my belief in God derives more an innate intrinsic wonderful feeling.
It is driven more emotion not lack of Scientifuc reason.
It is not driven by ancient literature. I see that only as a good reference point on how my ancestors felt about it.

Your reasoning that your 'innate intrinsic wonderful feeling' somehow implies the existence of god is a leap way too far for me, and I would think for anyone of a rational mindset. You are by all means entitled to think and feel whatever you want and if it feels right for you well then good for you. But that doesn't make it right anywhere else outside of your own mental landscape.

As others have said many people are now coming up with all sorts of vague wishy washy definitions of 'god'. It seems god can be just about anything you want him/it to be. God has always been the cop-out answer for 'that which we do not yet understand'.

The origin of the universe has not yet been explained by science, and may not be for a long time to come. However using 'god' to fill in the blanks is just making the same mistake that everyone else ever made about unexplained phenomenon. It doesn't really explain anything as you are merely adding further complexity to the whole issue. It is more honest and prudent to simply admit 'I do not know'. And as to the origins of the universe and all it contains we may never know, though if human life survives for long enough I expect we'll probably find the answer some day, although I'll hardly be around to see it.

If there is a god, why play hide and seek? If the god of the bible really exists, why not reveal himself and end the whole debate, leaving Richard Dawkins with a big splatter of egg on his face. Surely this would be very tempting even for a supernatural deity?

Dades · 15-11-2006 03:58PM

aidan24326 wrote:

Surely this would be very tempting even for a supernatural deity?

Especially for one with so many suspiciously human traits already.

5uspect · 15-11-2006 04:10PM

John Wine wrote:

PS
5uspect, it's David Quinn not John Quinn.

A Freudian slip on my part, strangely enough I know a David and a John Quinn... I suppose the thing to take from this is that the mind is imperfect.

John Wine wrote:

Just looking at some of the recent comments:

1. [Zillah] Your brain is absolutely broken and I wash my hands of you and your ridiculous conciousness.
2. [DaveMcG]
I don't think that anyone of even moderate intelligence could believe in god for the reasons you've provided
3. [5uspect]
John Wine saying god is emotion is like that tosser John Quinn...

Several atheists think they have a monopoly on reason, but this is not reason, it is intolerance and biggotted. This brings me back to the OP, why do some of you guys get so freaked out?

Sometimes, I feel you fear diversity.

You've pointed to these as examples of atheist logic. Can you explain why they are so flawed? Granted the language is often dismissive as many of these people have argues these points to death.

John Wine wrote:

Existence is a deep philsophical concept. Existence for me, may be non existence for you, but non existence for you does mean non existence for me.

You see comments like this are just nonsense until you put put tight definitions on your terms. This is why it is easy to dismiss the biblical god or thor or whatever as just geographically localised fairy tales resulting from the ignorance of the local tribes to the forces of nature etc. This comment and others like it are just playing with language and ideas in your head without applying such thought to anything meaningful in the world. Of course god must transcend all physical existence (or some similar nonsense) so there is no need for any of these comments to apply to the physical world. Now if this is the case its simply a matter that you made it up. Making something up is logical reasoning. You must be able to back it up.

John Wine wrote:

There are several other places where you do not apply strict logic to your reason. Just for example, 5uspect you say: 'on a personal whim',
how do you deduce my feelings are a whim? They are not, they are deep, instrinsic and innate. I cannot ignore or avoid them.
This seems like a straw man. Again, following Dawkins debating tactics.
I trust science, most of it anyway, but it doesn't answer important questions for me.

But every feeling we have is a personal whim of a sort. Every idea that goes through your head and mine is simply that just a personal whimsical notion. In order to make sense of our world and our existence in a philosophical sense we must decide which ideas are verifiable in the world which we are are, build upon them to discover more truths or replace them with new ideas.

John Wine wrote:

My view is: part of faith / theism / christianity is to question everything in the Bible.

Why the bible? Why start there? What qualifies it as the holy book of choice?

5uspect · 15-11-2006 04:26PM

Scofflaw wrote:

Vast logical chasms, unbridgeable abysses of unreason, all happily leapt over in single bounds of assertion. Simple when you don't try to think.

cordially,
Scofflaw

But I find it difficult to understand how people can make these leaps, pulling the idea of a ancient god and some unanswered question together for absolutely no reason. I wonder is it simply a refusal to think or something more. Is it a fear of thinking or even an inability to comprehend anything else? If their delusion makes them happy or socially accepted then does the need to question become dangerous for them? Almost like a sin.

Scofflaw · 15-11-2006 04:51PM

5uspect wrote:

But I find it difficult to understand how people can make these leaps, pulling the idea of a ancient god and some unanswered question together for absolutely no reason. I wonder is it simply a refusal to think or something more. Is it a fear of thinking or even an inability to comprehend anything else? If their delusion makes them happy or socially accepted then does the need to question become dangerous for them? Almost like a sin.

As far as I can make out, most people don't go beyond the first solution they're offered to a problem. The God one goes like this:

1. there must be a reason for everything
2. God is a reason for everything
3. therefore, God is the reason for everything

Again, one needs to overleap the problem that there needn't be a reason for everything, that God, if he doesn't exist, can't be a reason for anything, and lastly that just because a something fixes a problem doesn't mean it's actually a solution. People use this "logic" every day, for all kinds of things.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scared of theism

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