Scared of theism

John Wine

Hello Atheists,
I have a topic to discuss?
Some atheists seem to be afaid of theism or get freaked out about parts of it of by theists expressing their views.
I appreciated this is only a percentage perhaps the minority, but I would be interested on your views on this.

MrJoeSoap

What do you mean by 'scared'?

Surely Theism is an overwhelming majority in this day and age and the vast majority of Atheists realise that and have done for most of their lives. What is there to be 'scared' of?

Nothing in religion freaks me out, though it all confuses me.

Tar.Aldarion

'freaked out about parts of it of by theists expressing their views.'

Care to elaborate?

John Wine

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

'freaked out about parts of it of by theists expressing their views.'

Care to elaborate?

Look at Richard Dawkins, he seems to get a bit freaked out by theism.

Dades

John Wine wrote:

Some atheists seem to be afaid of theism or get freaked out about parts of it of by theists expressing their views.
I appreciated this is only a percentage perhaps the minority, but I would be interested on your views on this.

For the most part (as you suggest) this is not the case. I would think it more typical that atheists keep quiet about atheism in the company of certain theists (often older family types), for fear of "freaking" them out.

I can't imagine what an atheist would have to fear from theism - given the definition of an atheist.

Of course there are certain theists that freak me out. Usually the fundamentalist types that are either armed to the teeth or have more power in the community than they have any right to. They should concern any right-thinking person though, believer or not.

John Wine wrote:

Look at Richard Dawkins, he seems to get a bit freaked out by theism.

I'd say perplexed is a better word to describe Dawkins.

Though I'd be freaked if I got some of the threats he gets in his inbox (as per his book) everyday. Again, this is due to fundie types who should freak us all out.

John Wine

The Atheist wrote:

Again, this is due to fundie types who should freak us all out.

Why do Fundies freak you out?

Stephen

Because of the very nature of fundamentalism? Anything taken to extremes is bad.

John Wine

Stephen wrote:

Because of the very nature of fundamentalism? Anything taken to extremes is bad.

Elaborate, surely that argument could be reversed. Atheism is extreme and is also bad.

MrJoeSoap

John Wine wrote:

Why do Fundies freak you out?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UWIb4FwHPg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gubiP3mP3Ds

Just a snippet of why.

MrJoeSoap

John Wine wrote:

Atheism is extreme and is also bad.

How is Atheism 'extreme'? Its a belief like all other beliefs, based purely on logic, reason and science.

John Wine

MrJoeSoap wrote:

How is Atheism 'extreme'? Its a belief like all other beliefs, based purely on logic, reason and science.

It depends on definition on extreme.
My point is if you consider Fundies extreme, what is the logic that their position is extreme and atheism is not?

Beruthiel

John Wine wrote:

Elaborate.

fundamentalism = loolaa's who read a book written centuries ago by a king who wanted to keep all the people happy, and believe every word of it without question or thought.

atheism = a belief in nothing without logical, well thought out proof.
Explain how that is 'bad' btw?

A rather large difference between the two.
I have always prefered engaging your brain instead of just going with superstition

bonkey

John Wine wrote:

Some atheists seem to be afaid of theism or get freaked out about parts of it of by theists expressing their views.

I'm sure some do.

More, however, I feel are freaked out not by theists expressing their views, but rather by theists trying to "sell", or "push" their views.

Even then, I would argue that "freaked out" is perhaps not an entirely accurate phrase.

Personally, I don't mind what someone believes in. However, when they start suggesting that I should believe the same thing, or be forced to live my life in accordance with their personal beliefs....then I have somewhat of an issue to the extent that I feel I have an equal right to state my case, to suggest they live by my rules.

I know other people who will argue that a belief structure cannot be seperated from the social impact said belief structure has had. Thus, they hold (for example) a belief in Catholicism as being an acceptance (or support of) certain things. So, they would feel it necessary to tell someone that their theist views are unacceptable because they were responsible for this-and-that.

Deliberately taking an extreme non-religious parallel, you'll get people expressing support for the concept of communism. You'll get others who argue that said people are effectively supporting the oppression that communism has caused around the world and that such oppression has shown that communism is A Bad Thing [tm].

Its easy to misconstrue disagreement with fear and/or overreaction. But at the end of the day, just ask yourself this....if they limit themselves to expressing their fear / freaked-outed-ness, then where's the problem? They, just like the people they're freaked out by / afraid of are only voicing an opinion.

Now...you've asked why they do this. Why not equally ask why theists voice their opinions? Its not like a different answer.

John Wine

Beruthiel wrote:

fundamentalism = loolaa's who read a book written centuries ago by a king who wanted to keep all the people happy, and believe every word of it without question or thought.

atheism = a belief in nothing without logical, well thought out proof.
Explain how that is 'bad' btw?

A rather large difference between the two.
I have always prefered engaging your brain instead of just going with superstition

I don't consider atheism bad. I consider it an opinion.
I can't understand why fundies freak atheists out though?

MrJoeSoap

John Wine wrote:

My point is if you consider Fundies extreme, what is the logic that their position is extreme

The term "fundamental extremists" didn't come from nowhere. They are considered extreme because the term itself denotes a return to a literal interpretation of whatever text (be it the Qur'an, the Bible etc...) is in question, which in many cases leads to extremist beliefs and practices.

John Wine wrote:

and atheism is not?

Atheism, as I have already stated, is a belief in logic, reason and science, which can be proven.

John Wine

MrJoeSoap wrote:

The term "fundamental extremists" didn't come from nowhere. They are considered extreme because the term itself denotes a return to a literal interpretation of whatever text (be it the Qur'an, the Bible etc...) is in question, which in many cases leads to extremist beliefs and practices.



Atheism, as I have already stated, is a belief in logic, reason and science, which can be proven.

But so what if they have no propensity for logic or science. Surely people can decide for themselves what makes them happy? Why should that freak you out?

MrJoeSoap

John Wine wrote:

But so what if they have no propensity for logic or science.

Well its just my belief that rationality, logic and science are a necessary part of my everyday life.

John Wine wrote:

Surely people can decide for themselves what makes them happy? Why should that freak you out?

Of course people can decide what makes them happy, I have numerous Catholic relatives to whom I have never told my beliefs. Its mostly personal to me.

I've never said religion freaks me out, though fundamentalism pushes me to the edge.

MrJoeSoap

John Wine wrote:

I don't consider atheism bad. I consider it an opinion.
I can't understand why fundies freak atheists out though?

Watch any of this interview with Shirley Phelps-Roper (a fundamentalist lunatic) and you might realise why fundamentalism freaks me out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8-xgvTnxPI&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ24gX_dtpE&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-in16plR9Jk&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x176aI15Y_0&mode=related&search=

John Wine

MrJoeSoap wrote:

I've never said religion freaks me out, though fundamentalism pushes me to the edge.

Ok, Shirley Phelps-Roper is a bigot, so I can understand that. But about fundies who are not biggots. They are just mad into the Bible but definetly not biggots?
Do they freak you out and if so why?

Hendrixcat

Atheist have good reason to be scared on fundamentalist theist. If a fundamentalist revolution ever comes to our part of the world, atheist will be first against the wall because their distaste for non-believers is even greater than their distaste for other theist who merely don't follow the same religious dogma. Also attempting to reason with a fundamentalist bent of murder is akin to trying to reason with a crocodile as it grabs you by the leg and pulls you in to the river. The depth of a fundamentalist's irrationality is breathtaking and something to be genuinely feared. As for your common or garden moderate theist who mostly has religious beliefs either out of fear of coping with a reality dominated by random chance or an inability to put his/her rational faculities into action, these peple don't worry me at all.

MrJoeSoap

John Wine wrote:

But about fundies who are not biggots. They are just mad into the Bible but definetly not biggots?

Thats fair enough, and once they don't preach hatred and/or offer disdain towards other religions I've no problem with them.

John Wine wrote:

Do they freak you out and if so why?

Not really "freak me out" but I certainly don't understand why they believe what they do.

I'm curious as to your beliefs or opinions on this issue?

5uspect

Religious fundamentalists are worrying because they would like to change society to live by the rules they cherry pick from their various holy books and not offer an ounce of evidence as to why such a policy is for the mutual benefit of all, other that they consider the salvation of an imaginary soul into an imaginary afterlife of the upmost importance over any "material" issues that we actually know exist.

Dades

John Wine wrote:

Elaborate, surely that argument could be reversed. Atheism is extreme and is also bad.

I going to assume you mean extreme atheism here.

But what that is I do not know. How do you have an extreme disbelief in something? Anarchists or Nihilists might well be atheist, as might a social worker or a mother of five. It's not atheism that defines how they live their life, it's personal morality.

Fundamentalists don't have to be bigots to be disagreeable. Would you want your children taught that the world is 4,000 years old in science class? Is that any way to open a child's mind?

Enough questions - where are they coming from?

Scofflaw

I don't find thoughtful believers disturbing.

I find disturbing anyone who has invested their entire belief in what someone else says - whether that's fundamentalist Protestants, Catholics, Marxists, Muslims, Guru Swami Blah, L.Ron Hubbard, Dr Joshi, whatever they follow.

Atheists are not usually so disturbing, because in general they are not following what someone else has said.

Those who simply parrot other people's lines without understanding them have abdicated a certain responsibility. I would consider them less than human, if you like.

The best analogy I can think of is that they're like people driving using a book of directions, rather than looking at the road - a danger to other traffic.

cordially,
Scofflaw

aidan24326

John Wine wrote:

I can't understand why fundies freak atheists out though?

Well you're the only one claiming that they do. Personally I am not freaked out by fundies, many of them are complete idiots with brainpower on a par with monkeys, I actually pity some of them, but I do find religious fundamentalism (or indeed political fundamentalism,they're often linked) highly objectionable and a rotten stain on humanity.

Fundamentalism of this kind requires no thought whatsoever, you have your position at one end of the spectrum, usually plucked selectively from some ancient B-Movie script like the bible, and you stick to it rigidly, closing your mind off to anything that might contradict your viewpoint in any way, even if it's backed up by strong evidence. Evidence doesn't matter you see, we're right and everyone else is wrong. End of story. And the rest of you are going to hell, possibly after I send you there with my bomb or bullet, under god's command of course.

Such is the attitude of the fundamentalists. This type of brainwashed closed-mindedness invariably breeds bigotry, hatred, intolerance and quite often violence. It's not just atheists who should have a serious problem with that way of thinking (if it can be called thinking at all).

John Wine

aidan24326 wrote:

Well you're the only one claiming that they do. Personally I am not freaked out by fundies, many of them are complete idiots with brainpower on a par with monkeys, I actually pity some of them, but I do find religious fundamentalism (or indeed political fundamentalism,they're often linked) highly objectionable and a rotten stain on humanity.

Fundamentalism of any kind requires no thought whatsoever, you have your position at one end of the spectrum, usually plucked selectively from some ancient B-Movie script like the bible, and you stick to it rigidly, closing your mind off to anything that might contradict your viewpoint in any way, even if it's backed up by strong evidence. Evidence doesn't matter you see, we're right and everyone else is wrong. End of story. And the rest of you are going to hell, possibly after I send you there with my bomb or bullet, under god's command of course.

Such is the attitude of the fundamentalists. This type of brainwashed closed-mindedness invariably breeds bigotry, hatred, intolerance and quite often violence. It's not just atheists who should have a serious problem with that way of thinking (if it can be called thinking at all).

So do you hate all Priests?

MrJoeSoap

John Wine wrote:

So do you hate all Priests?

He never said he hated anyone, why do you keep putting words in peoples mouths?

John Wine

MrJoeSoap wrote:

He never said he hated anyone, why do you keep putting words in peoples mouths?

Ok, I rephrase the question.
What is your opinion of Priests?

aidan24326

John Wine wrote:

So do you hate all Priests?

No I don't 'hate' anyone. I can have a problem with what someone does or how they think without necessarily hating them.

In any case, obviously not all priests are fundamentalist in the way I've described. I should think (and hope) that most are not. I can still very much disagree with their modus operandi i.e follow the word of some ancient book and pray to an obscure god no more likely to exist than any sky monster or rain god that anyone ever prayed to in the past. But many priests do adopt a more open-minded view than those who would be considered fundamentalist, and so that makes your question a rather silly one.

John Wine

aidan24326 wrote:

No I don't 'hate' anyone. I can have a problem with what someone does or how they think without necessarily hating them.

In any case, obviously not all priests are fundamentalist in the way I've described. I should think (and hope) that most are not. I can still very much disagree with their modus operandi i.e follow the word of some ancient book and pray to an obscure god no more likely to exist than any sky monster or rain god that anyone ever prayed to in the past. But many priests do adopt a more open-minded view than those who would be considered fundamentalist, and so that makes your question a rather silly one.

I think what is silly here, is the definition of extremists and fundamentalist keep changing. I thought atheists were supposed to be hyper logical.

aidan24326

John Wine wrote:

Ok, I rephrase the question.
What is your opinion of Priests?

My opinion on any priest would depend on the priest himself. I've known priests who I'd consider nice decent men, even if I don't entirely agree with their take on the world. On the other hand we all know of some pretty vile priests who've done some terrible things. (Then again there's no real proof that being a priest caused them to do those things, they might have been like that anyway, and being a priest perhaps gave them access to certain things and a position of power they wouldn't otherwise have had. But that's all another matter for another day).

So on a personal level I would try to judge a priest as I would anyone else, while generally disagreeing with alot of what they would believe in and the way they came to hold those beliefs in the first place.

MrJoeSoap

John Wine wrote:

I think what is silly here, is the definition of extremists and fundamentalist keep changing. I thought atheists were supposed to be hyper logical.

Well why don't you offer your opinion then, and stop being patronising.

aidan24326

John Wine wrote:

I think what is silly here, is the definition of extremists and fundamentalist keep changing. I thought atheists were supposed to be hyper logical.

How do they keep changing? What do you mean? I've already loosely described what a fundamentalist attitude is (unless anyone else wants to improve on that) it's a strict and literal adherence to a set of principles or to religious dogma in the case of religion. Not all priests are strict and literal adherents to dogma, some of the more progressively minded have embraced modern thinking on many matters, and rejected some of the more outdated ideas within church teachings. That means they would not be described as fundamentalist. You seem to be confusing all religious belief with fundamentalism.

John Wine

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Well why don't you offer your opinion then, and stop being patronising.

Ok this is why I think atheists get freaked out.
Atheists don't believe in their ancesteral religion, it's not logical enough, there's no evidence, they look at other religion and see the same lack of logic or faith.
Theists, can't deal with being meaningless or having no purpose in life, they find their ancestoral religion comforting. It is an emotionally positive experience.
Fundies, feel really good about how comforting they find it. To the point they have to remind people about it or share it with people.

Atheists, however still have the feeling meaningless. They may say things, like I love nature, I love my wife, my children, this meaning is enough for me.
They may say many things give their life meaning and those things do give their life meaning.
But if they are accepting their is no underlying creator of the human race, then there is no purpose to human race. We are here purely by a long series of accidents.
This is an issue that is naturally uncomfortable for people to take, even if it is correct. This is because we are a very emotional species.
Now, I think atheists don't like being reminded of this nothingness and hence this is why fundies freak them out. Fundies remind atheists that they (the atheists) belief their life has a degree of meaningless.

I can't see any other reason why logical people would get freaked out simply because a "gullible" person has a different opinion.

The second thing that freaks atheists out is that they know they can be proofed wrong, however they also know they cannot be proofed right. It is a tentative position.

The third reason as discussed in this thread, is if fundies can get into political power. However,
this is quite unlikely in this state. It's also a macro issue, concerning society not just them.
It's the micro issues, (i.e. the other two) that really freak them out.



Hope I'm not freaking people out with these thoughts...

Dades

At last!

Firstly nobody here said they were "freaked" by religion, only perhaps by fundamentalists. And the reason atheists don't like about fundamentalists is that fundies basically want to spread ignorance.

You patently aren't comfortable with the idea that there is no meaning to life (in the religious sense) - therefore you have projected your fears onto those that follow that idea.

John Wine wrote:

The second thing that freaks atheists out is that they know they can be proofed wrong, however they also know they cannot be proofed right. It is a tentative position.

And don't forgot holy water - that burns us.

MrJoeSoap

John Wine wrote:

Atheists don't believe in their ancesteral religion, it's not logical enough, there's no evidence, they look at other religion and see the same lack of logic or faith.

Pretty much yeah.

John Wine wrote:

Theists, can't deal with being meaningless or having no purpose in life, the find their ancestoral religion comforting.

Probably the case I would imagine.

John Wine wrote:

Fundies, feel really good about how comforting they find it. To the point they have to remind people about it or share it with people.

Not too sure, a fundamentalist is more someone who takes the scriptures literally, not someone who tries to spread their beliefs, though I'm sure the two often conflict.

John Wine wrote:

Atheists, however still have the feeling meaningless. They may say things, like I love nature, I love my wife, my children, this meaning is enough for me. The may say many things give their life meaning.

True, except for the 'meaningless' part, I don't feel meaningless. The opposite, if the truth be known.

John Wine wrote:

But if they are accepting their is no underlying creator of the human race, then there is no purpose to human race.

That is probably a common misconception. Atheists don't live in misery thinking there is no purpose to life, quite the opposite. As Atheists believe this is their only chance at life, they quite frequently embrace it. The phrase "life is too short" springs to mind.

John Wine wrote:

We are here purely by a long series of accidents.

Not sure what you mean by accidents, I would consider an accident as something you don't wish for.

John Wine wrote:

This is an issue that is naturally uncomfortable for people to take, even if it is correct. This is because we are a very emotional species.

It is uncomfortable, but if you are strong-willed then you learn to accept it and live your life to the fullest.

John Wine wrote:

Now, I think atheists don't like being reminded of this nothingness and hence this is why fundies freak them out. Fundies remind atheists that they (the atheists) belief their life a massive degree of meaningless.

I love being reminded that when I die I will turn to dust and that will be that. It helps me realise that my life is precious and that I should do everything I can to enjoy it, make many friends, travel the globe and do so with a smile on my face. Like this ->

John Wine wrote:

I can't see any other reason why logical people would get freaked out simply because a "gullible" person has a different opinion.

Fundamentalism, or fundamentalists in general, do not freak me out. People who spend their life preaching hate... they freak me out.

John Wine

MrJoeSoap wrote:

True, except for the 'meaningless' part, I don't feel meaningless. The opposite, if the truth be known.
That is probably a common misconception. Atheists don't live in misery thinking there is no purpose to life, quite the opposite. As Atheists believe this is their only chance at life, they quite frequently embrace it. The phrase "life is too short" springs to mind.

I'm not saying atheists are depressed. But I am saying the miss out on the feel good factor that a emotional crux provides. Even if all religions are wrongs and we all just go to dust, the crux is a emotionally positive buzz.

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Not sure what you mean by accidents, I would consider an accident as something you don't wish for.

Sorry bad choice of words, I mean statistically unlikely events not accidents.

John Wine

The Atheist wrote:

You patently aren't comfortable with the idea that there is no meaning to life (in the religious sense) - therefore you have projected your fears onto those that follow that idea.

Yes I am going off my instincts and my deepest thoughts, and it feels good.
However I featr nobody, Fundy, Atheist bring em on.,

Dades

John Wine wrote:

It's the micro issues, (i.e. the other two) that really freak them out.

Them? You mean the people here who've just disagreed with you? Or some other atheist pool you've been paddling in?

MrJoeSoap

John Wine wrote:

I'm not saying atheists are depressed. But I am saying the miss out on the feel good factor that a emotional crux provides. Even if all religions are wrongs and we all just go to dust, the crux is a emotionally positive buzz.

True, ignorance is bliss I suppose!

John Wine wrote:

Sorry bad choice of words, I mean statistically unlikely events not accidents.

Cool, I agree so.

John Wine

MrJoeSoap wrote:

True, ignorance is bliss I suppose!

Going with your instincts also feels excellant

Cool, I agree so.

John Wine

The Atheist wrote:

Them? You mean the people here who've just disagreed with you? Or some other atheist pool you've been paddling in?

I don't know any of the people well enough to say, I was just giving my opinion and why you guys get freaked.

Dades

John Wine wrote:

I don't know any of the people well enough to say, I was just giving my opinion and why you guys get freaked.

I guess thats fair enough.

My own experience with folk here is that they aren't too concerned about life being "meaningless" - and even less concerned that atheism can't be "proven".

And of course the fact that something is unattractive shouldn't really affect what you believe.

John Wine

The Atheist wrote:

And of course the fact that something is unattractive shouldn't really affect what you believe.

Well that's the crux of the matter.
Atheism is unattractive to most people no matter how logical it may be.
It's like hanging around with accountants or some I.T. heads. You may have a logical conversation but you might actually feel worse.

Dades

To be fair, many people find it a breath of fresh air after a stifled (religious) upbringing.
There are no rules - only individual cases. Each to there own.

John Wine

The Atheist wrote:

To be fair, many people find it a breath of fresh air after a stifled (religious) upbringing.
There are no rules - only individual cases. Each to there own.

Is that not an anarchist?

Ciaran500

"Anarchism is the name of a political philosophy or a group of doctrines and attitudes that are centered on rejection of any form of compulsory government (such as the state)[1] and support its elimination." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

I don't think so.


Does this guy remind anyone else of a certain banned member?

John Wine

Ciaran 500,
Yes or No, do you agree with no rules in life?

Dades

John Wine wrote:

Ciaran 500,
Yes or No, do you agree with no rules in life?

Seriously - get a grip. We have rules in life - they're called legislation.

Lack or religious doctine does not result in anarchy.

Ciaran500 wrote:

Does this guy remind anyone else of a certain banned member?

Maybe. But it's been a slow week on A/A.

Ciaran500

John Wine wrote:

Ciaran 500,
Yes or No, do you agree with no rules in life?

Nope. But any rules should be dictated by common sense.

John Wine

Ciaran500 wrote:

Nope. But any rules should be dictated by common sense.

Define common sense.