Scared of theism

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

of course he hasn't

Crucifix

What exactly do you mean by these feelings? Are you talking about contentment, or feeling inspired, or something else?

5uspect

Mordeth wrote:

of course he hasn't

Thats why I asked! Why else would he come here and ask with nothing but feelings? People seem to believe that science must preach its answers and ideas in a similar manner to religion every sunday, or least from "a recently published study suggests" prayer on the radio on a monday morning.

John Wine

Crucifix wrote:

What exactly do you mean by these feelings? Are you talking about contentment, or feeling inspired, or something else?

It's very difficult to explain.
Can you explain the love you have for your Mother or Girlfriend, a baby, a niece or nephew?
Put it this way, they are very very deep.
I find it hard to explain them to someone like 5uspect of Mordeth who thinks I can understand by doing a search on google.
I really think that is trivialising the issue.
People have had spiritual feelings pretty much in all recorded history and still do today.
There are many books that explain this in detail.
There is no reason why one cannot embrace these feelings today.

Scofflaw

So, a couple of pages later, everyone has told John Wine that theists don't freak them out, and John Wine has moved on to asking what exactly it is that freaks us out about theists?

I wish that was a novel technique.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Crucifix

John Wine wrote:

It's very difficult to explain.
Can you explain the love you have for your Mother or Girlfriend, a baby, a niece or nephew?
Put it this way, they are very very deep.
I find it hard to explain them to someone like 5uspect of Mordeth who thinks I can understand by doing a search on google.
I really think that is trivialising the issue.
People have had spiritual feelings pretty much in all recorded history and still do today.
There are many books that explain this in detail.
There is no reason why one cannot embrace these feelings today.

In that case I don't think atheists are ignoring/disregarding/not trusting these feelings as suggested, I reckon they just don't associate them with God. I certainly feel deep love, but to me there is no connection to anything beyond the 'mundane' universe.

John Wine

5uspect wrote:

Thats why I asked! Why else would he come here and ask with nothing but feelings? People seem to believe that science must preach its answers and ideas in a similar manner to religion every sunday, or least from "a recently published study suggests" prayer on the radio on a monday morning.

I think you are going way off the point.
I came here because as I am curious as to why atheists get freaked out by theists. The only efforts by the atheists in this thread to explain this is by picking ridiculous extremes of religious groups in the states that only have 70 members or so.
I don't know anybody that thinks Science must preach similar to Religion.

John Wine

John Wine wrote:

I think you are going way off the point.
I came here because as I am curious as to why atheists get freaked out by theists. The only efforts by the atheists in this thread to explain this is by picking ridiculous extremes of religious groups in the states that only have 70 members or so.
I don't know anybody that thinks Science must preach similar to Religion.

They've already told you they *don't* get freaked out by theists
which is why you're not getting an explanation

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Can you explain the love you have for your Mother or Girlfriend, a baby, a niece or nephew?

can you explain blue? Science can.

science 1. human 0.

I find it hard to explain them to someone like 5uspect of Mordeth who thinks I can understand by doing a search on google.

We understand what you mean perfectly well, we just disagree with it. We have reasons, which we have outlined. We (or at least 5uspect ) showed you where you could BEGIN your search for more knowledge on the subject to later make an informed decision. You are so unsure of your 'feelings' that you are scared to encounter evidence against them, if you had faith.. if you had true belief or knowledge of god no amou8nt of scientific evidence could persuade you otherwise. Your fear serves you well. Be afraid... be very afraid.

I really think that is trivialising the issue.

I think it's a pretty trivial issue... intrinsically so.

People have had spiritual feelings pretty much in all recorded history and still do today.

We know, we don't dispute this. The spiritual events were 'real' in the sense that effected (affected?) a change in personality, behaviour, thought whatever.. but they were not material or part of any universe other than the one in our own heads. Do you think you see with your eyes or hear with your ears?

There are many books that explain this in detail.
There is no reason why one cannot embrace these feelings today.

No reason why one cannot, but maybe a few why one should not. Believing in something just because it's what you believe is no way to live your life. Human beings are very, very fallible. The scientific method tries (often fails) to counter this by removing the human element as much as possible. We screw things up and get things wrong an awful lot.

And there are plenty of great books that do make a very good attempt to explain these feelings you speak of, they're written by psychologists and scientists. People who make it their business to try to understand and learn, not just preach what they feel.

John Wine

bluewolf wrote:

They've already told you they *don't* get freaked out by theists
which is why you're not getting an explanation

Well here's a quote from a previous poster:

Theism can freak me out because the religious are people who have the capacity to deeply and truly believe something that is wholly ridiculous to me

This thread was for atheists to express their fears, we all have fears.
Instead it has turned out to be an attack on my personnel beliefs.
This demostrates the fear but it does not explain it.

John Wine

John Wine wrote:

Well here's a quote from a previous poster:

Theism can freak me out because the religious are people who have the capacity to deeply and truly believe something that is wholly ridiculous to me

This thread was for atheists to express their fears, we all have fears.
Instead it has turned out to be an attack on my personnel beliefs.
This demostrates the fear but it does not explain it.

We're talking to you, not attacking you
are you afraid of being questioned?
Maybe we should make a thread on why theists are scared of atheists

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

what about your fear of questioning your feelings?

can you explain that? do you even want to? People have answered every one of your questions, and answered them as well as we could.. not being scientists or working in related fields. You keep dodging ours and repeating the same ol' phrase. That's pretty pathetic.

Maybe we should make a thread on why theists are scared of atheists

it'd be a very short thread

post #1 = why are theists scared of atheists?

post #2 = because we're right and they know it.

post #3 - Oh,.. right, yeah that makes sense. Someone oughta sticky this.

John Wine

bluewolf wrote:

We're talking to you, not attacking you
are you afraid of being questioned?
Maybe we should make a thread on why theists are scared of atheists

I am afraid of not being respected. It is not a nice feeling.

Mordeth

Mordeth wrote:

it'd be a very short thread

post #1 = why are theists scared of atheists?

post #2 = because we're right and they know it.

post #3 - Oh,.. right, yeah that makes sense. Someone oughta sticky this.

But then we could accuse them randomly of attacking us and not respecting us

not being scientists or working in related fields.

I'm only a scientist in training ;(

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

would it be considered a personal attack to tell him he doesn't have to worry about losing respect?

what about asking the question?

oh I'm so confused

John Wine

Mordeth wrote:

would it be considered a personal attack to tell him he doesn't have to worry about losing respect?

what about asking the question?

oh I'm so confused

I think you are trivialising this debate.
I accept most atheists in this thread are not freaked out by theists. If not speak out why - like Zillah did.
I accept most atheists in this thread are freaked out by fundies who are biggots. So are my.
What about the in between?
Fundies who are not biggots?
What are you fears of these people, do you have any? And why?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

plenty, I'm scared of dying, cancer, choking on this piece of apple that I'm chewing on (that's why I chew, because I'm scared of choking).

I suppose I could say I'm generally scared of scary things


--edit

just a quick update to let everyone know the apple passed down my throat gracefully, and has yet to come back up. I'm feeling good about this.

Dave!

John Wine wrote:

I think you are trivialising this debate.
What are you fears do you have any?

I think you trivialised it from the first post on when you kept on putting the words "I am scared of theism because..." into everyone's mouths. We're not afraid or freaked out of theism, it just isn't for us because it is not based on logic or evidence.

You are the one who is projecting your fears onto us. It's okay not to have a divine 'reason' for being here. Your life is finite. You will die and that will be the end of it.

Live your life now and don't worry about a stupid book

And I'm scared of lots of things, none of which are hellfire and brimstone.

5uspect

John Wine wrote:

I think you are going way off the point.
I came here because as I am curious as to why atheists get freaked out by theists. The only efforts by the atheists in this thread to explain this is by picking ridiculous extremes of religious groups in the states that only have 70 members or so.
I don't know anybody that thinks Science must preach similar to Religion.

I'm not freaked out by theists, only annoyed and confused at their failure to appreciate the validity of any other explanation other that what they were told. I would rather people think for themselves.

No one has pointed out some gun toting extreme group in the US, but if you want one the National Association of Evangelicals has millions of members. Maybe that is what you are trying to get at? Why do groups like these worry us?

As regards concepts like love and other "deep" feelings there is a lot of work already done and being done on these. Google (Scholar) searches do not trivialise them but point you to the published data, from the horses mouth.

An interesting but sometimes disturbing place to start is Harlow's experiments with monkey mother-child love.

All of this work and all other scientific work generally treats these deep rooted emotions as simply chemical and mental reactions evolved over time to aiding survival of the species. Other work may focus on the mechanics of these emotions in a society, maybe this isn't what you're after.

John Wine

5uspect wrote:

I'm not freaked out by theists, only annoyed and confused at their failure to appreciate the validity of any other explanation other that what they were told. I would rather people think for themselves.

Do you claim that I cannot think for myself because I am theist?

5uspect wrote:

All of this work and all other scientific work generally treats these deep rooted emotions as simply chemical and mental reactions evolved over time to aiding survival of the species. Other work may focus on the mechanics of these emotions in a society, maybe this isn't what you're after.

If you arguing that theism and spirituality is only because of some chemical process in people's heads which is therefore not good enough to accept,
do you also think that people should not love their mothers?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

but.., we can prove scientifically their mother is real, and that she had a real effect on that persons life.

5uspect

John Wine wrote:

Do you claim that I cannot think for myself because I am theist?

Did you come up with the idea of God and Jesus yourself? Obviously you are well able to think for yourself, I'm questioning the notion that a particular view is accepted without need for evidence. I do not regard your intrinsic belief as evidence. I'm trying to say that a theist accepts their religious convictions as truth or at least a better than just an idea without any grounds for doing so.

John Wine wrote:

If you arguing that theism and spirituality is only because of some chemical process in people's heads which is therefore not good enough to accept,
do you also think that people should not love their mothers?

We all feel these feelings of love, hate and happiness, some are stronger than others. Theism and spirituality are products of the interaction of these emotions and the rationalizing inside your head.

I'm arguing that theism and spirituality are a consequence of evolved mental states, just as racism, love and fear. We believe that racism is wrong, we believe that love is good. Why? because we have been around long enough to see their effects. We actively decide that racism is a bad thing even though we still may harbour some prejudices. Fear is different, it is generally good to be afraid of fire, guns etc but bad to be afraid of going outside or eating. Fear of something is also something that is learned, love for your mother for example is essentially part of us as Harlow showed. Religion, theism and spirituality are like fear, they can have benefits but we can now objectively identify these and move on safe in the knowledge that guns and fire are dangerous but need not fear them damning us to eternity.

John Wine

5uspect wrote:

I do not regard your intrinsic belief as evidence.

You don't have to.

5uspect wrote:

We all feel these feelings of love, hate and happiness, some are stronger than others. Theism and spirituality are products of the interaction of these emotions and the rationalizing inside your head.

I'm arguing that theism and spirituality are a consequence of evolved mental states, just as racism, love and fear. We believe that racism is wrong, we believe that love is good. Why? because we have been around long enough to see their effects. We actively decide that racism is a bad thing even though we still may harbour some prejudices. Fear is different, it is generally good to be afraid of fire, guns etc but bad to be afraid of going outside or eating. Fear of something is also something that is learned, love for your mother for example is essentially part of us as Harlow showed.

I agree with most of that. I don't know if theism and spirituality are evolved or pre programmed. All I know is I have it, I accept it and enjoy it.

5uspect wrote:

Religion, theism and spirituality are like fear, they can have benefits but we can now objectively identify these and move on safe in the knowledge that guns and fire are dangerous but need not fear them damning us to eternity.

Well I disagree. I can't move on. I don't want to move on. I see no reason to move on. I prefer to live with my theism, thanks.
Now can we get back to OP.
We've established that theists don't freak out most people in this forum and fundies who are biggots do?
What about those that are in between?
Priests or Ministers for example? Or Fundies who are not biggots?
Does thes people freak you or anyone out and why so?

John Wine

Mordeth wrote:

but.., we can prove scientifically their mother is real, and that she had a real effect on that persons life.

That's a bit different to unconditional love. Can we stick to OP please?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

no, love between a mother and a child is not always unconditional. do you really think you'd have the same amount of love for your mother if she went on a three month killing spree? if she killed your children, stripped you bare ass naked and whipped you up and down grafton st?

all love is conditional, whatever your intrinsic evidence tells you

John Wine

Mordeth wrote:

no, love between a mother and a child is not always unconditional. do you really think you'd have the same amount of love for your mother if she went on a three month killing spree? if she killed your children, stripped you bare ass naked and whipped you up and down grafton st?

all love is conditional, whatever your intrinsic evidence tells you

Again you go to extremes to make a point. I bet you "love" Richard Dawkins and Michael Moore.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

god damnit, I am not saying your mother WILl do that, or that I think she WOULD

but come on, unconditional means UNconditional.. without any conditions. Can you honestly say that you would still have the same love fgor your mother IF SHE WERE to do some or all of those things? Of COURSE I am using extreme examples because someones mother would have to do something extreme to change the conditions of love

Science H. Logic!
read a book! not the bible!

my head hurts, yes I love richard dawkins. I think michael moore is a fat idiot

John Wine

Mordeth wrote:

god damnit, I am not saying your mother WILl do that, or that I think she WOULD

but come on, unconditional means UNconditional.. without any conditions. Can you honestly say that you would still have the same love fgor your mother IF SHE WERE to do some or all of those things? Of COURSE I am using extreme examples because someones mother would have to do something extreme to change the conditions of love

Science H. Logic!
read a book! not the bible!

my head hurts, yes I love richard dawkins. I think michael moore is a fat idiot

Ok, well look at it scientifically, get a sample set of people who's Mother's have done what you describe and ask them if they still love them?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

i hate you.
I quit.

5uspect

John Wine wrote:

I agree with most of that. I don't know if theism and spirituality are evolved or pre programmed. All I know is I have it, I accept it and enjoy it.

Well thats fair enough, I'm happy we found some common ground. If it works for you, fine.

John Wine wrote:

Well I disagree. I can't move on. I don't want to move on. I see no reason to move on. I prefer to live with my theism, thanks.

Now can we get back to OP.

Well thats the distinction isn't it?
People prefer to have their theistic view and not question it (I'm sure you do question part of it if not most of it but stop short of ever rejecting it).
You're asking if atheists are shocked or horrified or freaked by ordinary everyday Christians - most people we deal with every day. This seems like an indirect way of asking if we feel that we're better than other people.

I have no problem with everyday Christians, as I've said I'm confused by how they accept such beliefs but thats it. The debates that I have had with friends about religious belief start with them laughing at how I cannot believe in god and generally end with them not wanting to discuss their beliefs or shrugging out of questions I don't think they really care about or have thought about in any great detail. Most people just accept the religion they were fed as a child and get on with the frankly more important things in their lives. For example over in Germany religion is pretty much a dead duck but society is not much different to here where religion is not so much extinct. People in general don't worry about the ideology of the religion they were or were not brought up in.

As regards priests and ministers who actively pursue a role in their religions, well I'd imagine they follow their personal revelation of intrinsic feeling similar to those described by yourself to fulfill their understanding of the "big questions". Since you're here to discuss these things I also assume that you are interesting in figuring out why we are all here and is there a reason for our existence. I suppose the active atheists here are similarly interested in such things and in that regard we're quite similar but we differ in our beliefs and methods.