Irish Judo Association move against Judo Ireland

NeiloMac · 28-09-2006 03:41PM #1

Finally the IJA has started to move against Judo Ireland,

This is a positive step cos this country is to small to have two orgainisations,

Here are letter from the IJA president Frank Treanor,

http://www.irishjudoassociation.ie/downloads/ija_letters_sent_by_F_Treanor.pdf

What you guys think about this,

Burnt · 28-09-2006 05:15PM

I'm sure the further division caused by moving against people doing judo
in ireland will greatly benifit the promotion of the art as a whole, particularly
in the schools and universities sector.

There's more than two organisation operating in the island IJA JI NIJF

Why cant we all just get along

28-09-2006 06:24PM

I hope the Irish Judo Association are aware that not all events listed on the Judo Ireland Website are ran under the auspices of Judo Ireland i.e. the Intervarsities.

ape_doc · 28-09-2006 08:43PM

Burnt wrote:

Why cant we all just get along

Very valid question I think. I just can't understand why the IJA has to be run in such an Authoritarian way.

To quote Wikopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism) :

"Authoritarianism describes a form of government characterized by strict obedience to the authority of the state, which often maintains and enforces social control through the use of oppressive measures. The term may also be used to describe the personality or management style of an individual or organization which seeks to dominate those within its sphere of influence and has little regard for building consensus."

Why can't they just agree to disagree with Judo Ireland, and instead of sending threatening letters about the dangers of being associated with Judo Ireland build the best possible organisation they can, and allow all judoka of Ireland to choose the organisation that offers the most.

Since the IJA is the recognised judo body in Ireland and they have been established for so long one would assume that they shouldn't feel as threatened as I get the impression they are.

With a change in the organisation of the IJA, why can't old hatreds (I don't think hatred is too strong a word) on both sides be put aside, and both organisations try to promote judo, and maybe (I'm probably too optimistic about this) over time they can learn to co-exist?

NeiloMac · 29-09-2006 09:10AM

Ok first of all the NIJF is a sub body of the BJA and there for is governered by the British Sports Council.

The rule by the IJF (Internation Judo Federation) is

"3.2 If two or more Federations within a country claim representation, it will be given to the Federation which is recognized by its National Olympic Committee or by the highest sporting organization of that country. Failing this preference, it will be given to the Federation which is recognized by the Continental Union as the valid National Judo Organization."

http://www.ijf.org/rule/rule_role_mission.php#3

As the Irish Olympic council recognizes the IJA as the governing body for Judo in Ireland,

The main problem is that of insurance, A Judo ireland player is not insured to fight in a IJA competition and nor is a IJA player insured to fight in a Judo Ireland comp.

Because the IJA is recognized as an international Judo body by the IJF, they are insured to fight in a BJA event, an EJU event and any other international Judo body that hold an open.

A judo Ireland player is not insured or allowed fight in another governing bodys competition as they are not recognized by the IJF.

I am not saying that Judo Ireland are not insured cos they are, they are only insured in their own events and own clubs.

So this is not a move on the promotion of Judo in Ireland but, is a move to cover them selfs insurance wise, I know, but ya gotta do it these's days. They last thing the IJA needs is to be sued,

Colm_OReilly · 29-09-2006 10:02AM

That's why we sign waivers before competitions.

You can really only be sued in the case of negligence. If you consent to compete in a division, and get injured, well you understood the risks.

NeiloMac · 29-09-2006 10:09AM

Would a 10 year old's mother sign a waiver, i dont think so,

and yes it is negligence in allowing a player who is not insured to fight at that comp, fight,

Colm_OReilly · 29-09-2006 10:18AM

Would a 10 year old mother sign a waiver, i dont think so,

A 10 year old mother!?:eek:

Joking aside, I have parents sign waivers for any competition I run. I fully explain all the risks to them, and ask them if they're happy with the division their child is in before the competition begins.

Do IJA competitions not have waivers at them?

Burnt · 29-09-2006 10:20AM

So if it's solely an insurance issue what would be wrong with membership of both organisations. Surely more people doing judo (which is persumability the ultimate aim of the IJA) the a wider availability of competitions would only benefit the art in ireland

There's the BJC and BJA in britian, there various organisations in the US
namely USJI USJA USJF apparently dual membership is permissable.

This is a particular problem for judo in universities, in particular the All Irleand Intervarsity Judo Championships, where the lack of IJA support has proved a serious logistical handicap, leading to lack of participation, disillusionment and wide spread apathy.

Finally the IJA has started to move against Judo Ireland,

This is a positive step cos this country is to small to have two orgainisations

From your initial statement is this really about insurance, which has been the party line feed to us (I'm a full IJA member) since the begining. Or is it about personal disputes, politicing and the petty one-upmanship of old men?

ape_doc · 29-09-2006 10:36AM

Burnt wrote:

From your initial statement is this really about insurance, which has been the party line feed to us (I'm a full IJA member) since the begining. Or is it about personal disputes, politicing and the petty one-upmanship of old men?

I would have to say the latter, from what I can tell there is no insurance reason why the two can't co-exist.

Dyr · 29-09-2006 10:40AM

Question for BJJ types about sproggs. Do kids in MMA/BJJ schools practice submissions like armlocks and chokes or use them on each other in competition etc? Does it affect insurance in some way?

I know in aikido/judo joint locking and choking was traditionally considered verboten for kids

ape_doc · 29-09-2006 10:46AM

Bambi wrote:

Question for BJJ types about sproggs. Do kids in MMA/BJJ schools practice submissions like armlocks and chokes or use them on each other in competition etc? Does it affect insurance in some way?

I know in aikido/judo joint locking and choking was traditionally considered verboten for kids

In my experience joint locking and choking and strangles are not allowed to be used in most competitions by competitors under the age of 16. I also think it would be very irresponsible to teach joint locking and choking and strangles to school children below a certain age, and as far as I know judo coaches don't. Could be wrong on this one though.

NeiloMac · 29-09-2006 11:04AM

I dont know why you can't be a member of both like with the BJC and BJA,

I dont think there are waiver in IJA comps, i have never seen any,

ape_doc · 29-09-2006 11:15AM

NeiloMac wrote:

There is bad blood between IJA and JI as JI are a break away organisation

If you ever attended an AGM pre JI I'm sure you noticed that there was bad blood well before the people that founded JI left the IJA.

Regarding insurance, from the Irish Open Entry form:
"Neither the I.J.A. nor it’s agents accept responsibility for any injury, damage or loss that may be incurred during these Championships."

To be honest I'm not sure exactly what you are insured against, don't know too much about insurances though.

NeiloMac · 29-09-2006 11:33AM

Fair enough, never read the fine print, just entered, god knows, weather that means you getting injured on the mat, or in the hall, i dont know, but there is some kind of insurance, as the letter in the original post was to leo, who is in insurance,

Look all i want to do is judo, and i want to have some good fights, there are some good players in JI and its a shame that we can't fight them and visa versa,

And i know there has been bad blood pre-JI

ape_doc · 29-09-2006 11:39AM

I feel the exact same way, and from what I can gather we are not alone in this. If this is the way a lot of people feel then maybe people should make themselves heard at AGMs and question decisions, on both sides.

As its stated in V for Vendetta:

"people shouldn't be afraid of their government, the government should be afraid of its people"

Or something to that effect

NeiloMac · 29-09-2006 11:48AM

True we the Judoka will have to stand up, we missed the AGM this year anyway,

Now what we should say from V is,

Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a bygone vexation stands vivified, and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin vanguarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition. The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous. Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose, so let me simply add that it's my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V."

ape_doc · 29-09-2006 11:49AM

eh yeah, something like that, is a bit long though, and might confuse some folks

Unpossible · 29-09-2006 12:05PM

but you are J for Judoka, so write a speach jusing a bunch of (mostly archaic) j words.

Time to crack out the thesaurus

ape_doc · 29-09-2006 12:10PM

Now there's a novel way of spending a weekend

Roper · 29-09-2006 01:13PM

Bambi wrote:

Question for BJJ types about sproggs. Do kids in MMA/BJJ schools practice submissions like armlocks and chokes or use them on each other in competition etc? Does it affect insurance in some way?

I know in aikido/judo joint locking and choking was traditionally considered verboten for kids

Loath as I am to admit this, as I know it will bring another CLM Northside jibe, but I borrowed (robbed, stole?) a lot from Colm's guidelines on submission training for kids.

Young kids (primary school) in my place do no subs at all. Secondary school kids learn how to make the shapes but not put them on. They drill and then do very supervised matches that are stopped long before a submission is locked in.

I get more injuries from them playing chasing before class than I do in matches.

NeiloMac · 29-09-2006 01:39PM

oh, let me try Jovial Judoka Join together Justified in Jollity of doing Japanese Judo by Jigoro Kano, :eek:

ape_doc · 29-09-2006 01:50PM

Looks like freedom of speech backfired

http://www.irishjudoassociation.ie/content/view/36/43/#jc_allComments

All joking aside though I think mature discussion is the best way of solving a problem which I feel is doing our sport massive damage.

ps Good attempt at a bit of poetry

NeiloMac · 29-09-2006 02:00PM

I heard now i could be wrong, that liam resigned after a vote of no confidence was given, basically forcing him to resign and then frank took over,

I could have that ass ways dont slate me please,

Something has to be done, the funding was cut again, they can't aford to send anyone away,

Colm_OReilly · 29-09-2006 02:06PM

Submissions with younglings are not nearly as hazardous as you'd think.

At KOMASS* we train bent and straight armlocks to kids from 9-12. They do the set up without application. Older kids (post primary) can do chokes as well. No leg locks though, mainly because they're cheap my friend!

Actually rollling with newbs is far more hazardous, as they not only don't know when they're in danger, they'll move the "wrong" way and can hurt themselves or their training partner.

With kids, the notion of tapping is drilled into them long before they learn their first sub, and they spend time learning how to roll for position before they start onto subs.

We ran, for the first time, a junior subs division at the Dublin Open. I told all the guys competing that the moment I could recognise a sub I'd stop it. They were quite happy to have this rule. Most, if not all the times I stopped it, the other kids was tapping as well. Which is quite impressive, considering the adrenaline rush they were under.

Colm

*KO Martial Arts South Side

ape_doc · 29-09-2006 02:09PM

Thats what I heard too, but it hard to know with these things, the official line seams to be that he retired.

I do think its time that this problem got solved the question is only how?

Dyr · 29-09-2006 02:40PM

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Submissions with younglings are not nearly as hazardous as you'd think.

At KOMASS* we train bent and straight armlocks to kids from 9-12. They do the set up without application. Older kids (post primary) can do chokes as well. No leg locks though, mainly because they're cheap my friend!

Actually rollling with newbs is far more hazardous, as they not only don't know when they're in danger, they'll move the "wrong" way and can hurt themselves or their training partner.

With kids, the notion of tapping is drilled into them long before they learn their first sub, and they spend time learning how to roll for position before they start onto subs.

We ran, for the first time, a junior subs division at the Dublin Open. I told all the guys competing that the moment I could recognise a sub I'd stop it. They were quite happy to have this rule. Most, if not all the times I stopped it, the other kids was tapping as well. Which is quite impressive, considering the adrenaline rush they were under.

Colm

*KO Martial Arts South Side

Makes sense. I can still see why they're disallowed in judo, given the size of the sport and huge range in standards/practices that would entail.

Nothingcompares · 29-09-2006 09:42PM

The problem with the IJA is that for the past few decades the organisation has been run by retards with a complete lack of integrity. Nobody currently active in the IJA administatration regardless of the xth Dans have ever acheived anything noteworthy in Judo.

Just look at the number of Judo clubs in Dublin and surronding area. How many of them are recently developed? How many of them have a thriving bunch of kids training? How many have a consistent group of teenagers raising through the ranks? You look at the judo clubs around and they've all been there for donkey's years run by old fogies.

As anyone here ever heard any advertising or promotion of the sport of judo? Up until very recently the website was a sham. People interested in joining judo for the first time as a beginner, returning to judo from an absnece of a number of years or foreginers traveling looking to continue their judo find IT TERRIBLY DIFFICULT to do so.

If you look at JudoIreland, their website, their clubs, the people involved in it, the activities and the progress they're trying to make, you can't help but feel they're moving quickly in the right direction while the IJA seems to be tumbling downhill.

I'm not sure what's going on with the resent resignations and promotions. What is usually the case at IJA AGMs is the current officers find out who is in support, who isn't, they nullify the voting powers of some of their opponents, they vote, they shuffle the cabinet and the same people do the same **** job again and again.

ape_doc · 30-09-2006 05:02PM

Its sad cos its true....
as they say on television "football is the winner"

Morse · 01-10-2006 09:31AM

I love Judo.

I hate politics.

ape_doc · 03-10-2006 09:12AM

Looks like the ball is rolling:

http://www.irishjudoassociation.ie/content/view/36/43/#jc_allComments

will be interesting to see who it crushes