Irish Judo Association move against Judo Ireland

NeiloMac

Finally the IJA has started to move against Judo Ireland,

This is a positive step cos this country is to small to have two orgainisations,

Here are letter from the IJA president Frank Treanor,

http://www.irishjudoassociation.ie/downloads/ija_letters_sent_by_F_Treanor.pdf

What you guys think about this,

Burnt

I'm sure the further division caused by moving against people doing judo
in ireland will greatly benifit the promotion of the art as a whole, particularly
in the schools and universities sector.

There's more than two organisation operating in the island IJA JI NIJF


Why cant we all just get along

I hope the Irish Judo Association are aware that not all events listed on the Judo Ireland Website are ran under the auspices of Judo Ireland i.e. the Intervarsities.

ape_doc

Burnt wrote:

Why cant we all just get along

Very valid question I think. I just can't understand why the IJA has to be run in such an Authoritarian way.

To quote Wikopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism) :

"Authoritarianism describes a form of government characterized by strict obedience to the authority of the state, which often maintains and enforces social control through the use of oppressive measures. The term may also be used to describe the personality or management style of an individual or organization which seeks to dominate those within its sphere of influence and has little regard for building consensus."

Why can't they just agree to disagree with Judo Ireland, and instead of sending threatening letters about the dangers of being associated with Judo Ireland build the best possible organisation they can, and allow all judoka of Ireland to choose the organisation that offers the most.

Since the IJA is the recognised judo body in Ireland and they have been established for so long one would assume that they shouldn't feel as threatened as I get the impression they are.

With a change in the organisation of the IJA, why can't old hatreds (I don't think hatred is too strong a word) on both sides be put aside, and both organisations try to promote judo, and maybe (I'm probably too optimistic about this) over time they can learn to co-exist?

NeiloMac

Ok first of all the NIJF is a sub body of the BJA and there for is governered by the British Sports Council.

The rule by the IJF (Internation Judo Federation) is

"3.2 If two or more Federations within a country claim representation, it will be given to the Federation which is recognized by its National Olympic Committee or by the highest sporting organization of that country. Failing this preference, it will be given to the Federation which is recognized by the Continental Union as the valid National Judo Organization."

http://www.ijf.org/rule/rule_role_mission.php#3

As the Irish Olympic council recognizes the IJA as the governing body for Judo in Ireland,

The main problem is that of insurance, A Judo ireland player is not insured to fight in a IJA competition and nor is a IJA player insured to fight in a Judo Ireland comp.

Because the IJA is recognized as an international Judo body by the IJF, they are insured to fight in a BJA event, an EJU event and any other international Judo body that hold an open.

A judo Ireland player is not insured or allowed fight in another governing bodys competition as they are not recognized by the IJF.

I am not saying that Judo Ireland are not insured cos they are, they are only insured in their own events and own clubs.

So this is not a move on the promotion of Judo in Ireland but, is a move to cover them selfs insurance wise, I know, but ya gotta do it these's days. They last thing the IJA needs is to be sued,

Colm_OReilly

That's why we sign waivers before competitions.

You can really only be sued in the case of negligence. If you consent to compete in a division, and get injured, well you understood the risks.

NeiloMac

Would a 10 year old's mother sign a waiver, i dont think so,

and yes it is negligence in allowing a player who is not insured to fight at that comp, fight,

Colm_OReilly

Would a 10 year old mother sign a waiver, i dont think so,

A 10 year old mother!?:eek:

Joking aside, I have parents sign waivers for any competition I run. I fully explain all the risks to them, and ask them if they're happy with the division their child is in before the competition begins.

Do IJA competitions not have waivers at them?

Burnt

So if it's solely an insurance issue what would be wrong with membership of both organisations. Surely more people doing judo (which is persumability the ultimate aim of the IJA) the a wider availability of competitions would only benefit the art in ireland

There's the BJC and BJA in britian, there various organisations in the US
namely USJI USJA USJF apparently dual membership is permissable.

This is a particular problem for judo in universities, in particular the All Irleand Intervarsity Judo Championships, where the lack of IJA support has proved a serious logistical handicap, leading to lack of participation, disillusionment and wide spread apathy.

Finally the IJA has started to move against Judo Ireland,

This is a positive step cos this country is to small to have two orgainisations

From your initial statement is this really about insurance, which has been the party line feed to us (I'm a full IJA member) since the begining. Or is it about personal disputes, politicing and the petty one-upmanship of old men?

ape_doc

Burnt wrote:

From your initial statement is this really about insurance, which has been the party line feed to us (I'm a full IJA member) since the begining. Or is it about personal disputes, politicing and the petty one-upmanship of old men?

I would have to say the latter, from what I can tell there is no insurance reason why the two can't co-exist.

Dyr

Question for BJJ types about sproggs. Do kids in MMA/BJJ schools practice submissions like armlocks and chokes or use them on each other in competition etc? Does it affect insurance in some way?

I know in aikido/judo joint locking and choking was traditionally considered verboten for kids

ape_doc

Bambi wrote:

Question for BJJ types about sproggs. Do kids in MMA/BJJ schools practice submissions like armlocks and chokes or use them on each other in competition etc? Does it affect insurance in some way?

I know in aikido/judo joint locking and choking was traditionally considered verboten for kids

In my experience joint locking and choking and strangles are not allowed to be used in most competitions by competitors under the age of 16. I also think it would be very irresponsible to teach joint locking and choking and strangles to school children below a certain age, and as far as I know judo coaches don't. Could be wrong on this one though.

NeiloMac

I dont know why you can't be a member of both like with the BJC and BJA,

I dont think there are waiver in IJA comps, i have never seen any,

ape_doc

NeiloMac wrote:

There is bad blood between IJA and JI as JI are a break away organisation

If you ever attended an AGM pre JI I'm sure you noticed that there was bad blood well before the people that founded JI left the IJA.

Regarding insurance, from the Irish Open Entry form:
"Neither the I.J.A. nor it’s agents accept responsibility for any injury, damage or loss that may be incurred during these Championships."

To be honest I'm not sure exactly what you are insured against, don't know too much about insurances though.

NeiloMac

Fair enough, never read the fine print, just entered, god knows, weather that means you getting injured on the mat, or in the hall, i dont know, but there is some kind of insurance, as the letter in the original post was to leo, who is in insurance,

Look all i want to do is judo, and i want to have some good fights, there are some good players in JI and its a shame that we can't fight them and visa versa,

And i know there has been bad blood pre-JI

ape_doc

I feel the exact same way, and from what I can gather we are not alone in this. If this is the way a lot of people feel then maybe people should make themselves heard at AGMs and question decisions, on both sides.

As its stated in V for Vendetta:

"people shouldn't be afraid of their government, the government should be afraid of its people"

Or something to that effect

NeiloMac

True we the Judoka will have to stand up, we missed the AGM this year anyway,

Now what we should say from V is,

Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a bygone vexation stands vivified, and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin vanguarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition. The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous. Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose, so let me simply add that it's my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V."

ape_doc

eh yeah, something like that, is a bit long though, and might confuse some folks

Unpossible

but you are J for Judoka, so write a speach jusing a bunch of (mostly archaic) j words.



Time to crack out the thesaurus

ape_doc

Now there's a novel way of spending a weekend

Roper

Bambi wrote:

Question for BJJ types about sproggs. Do kids in MMA/BJJ schools practice submissions like armlocks and chokes or use them on each other in competition etc? Does it affect insurance in some way?

I know in aikido/judo joint locking and choking was traditionally considered verboten for kids

Loath as I am to admit this, as I know it will bring another CLM Northside jibe, but I borrowed (robbed, stole?) a lot from Colm's guidelines on submission training for kids.

Young kids (primary school) in my place do no subs at all. Secondary school kids learn how to make the shapes but not put them on. They drill and then do very supervised matches that are stopped long before a submission is locked in.

I get more injuries from them playing chasing before class than I do in matches.

NeiloMac

oh, let me try Jovial Judoka Join together Justified in Jollity of doing Japanese Judo by Jigoro Kano, :eek:

ape_doc

Looks like freedom of speech backfired

http://www.irishjudoassociation.ie/content/view/36/43/#jc_allComments

All joking aside though I think mature discussion is the best way of solving a problem which I feel is doing our sport massive damage.

ps Good attempt at a bit of poetry

NeiloMac

I heard now i could be wrong, that liam resigned after a vote of no confidence was given, basically forcing him to resign and then frank took over,

I could have that ass ways dont slate me please,

Something has to be done, the funding was cut again, they can't aford to send anyone away,

Colm_OReilly

Submissions with younglings are not nearly as hazardous as you'd think.

At KOMASS* we train bent and straight armlocks to kids from 9-12. They do the set up without application. Older kids (post primary) can do chokes as well. No leg locks though, mainly because they're cheap my friend!

Actually rollling with newbs is far more hazardous, as they not only don't know when they're in danger, they'll move the "wrong" way and can hurt themselves or their training partner.

With kids, the notion of tapping is drilled into them long before they learn their first sub, and they spend time learning how to roll for position before they start onto subs.

We ran, for the first time, a junior subs division at the Dublin Open. I told all the guys competing that the moment I could recognise a sub I'd stop it. They were quite happy to have this rule. Most, if not all the times I stopped it, the other kids was tapping as well. Which is quite impressive, considering the adrenaline rush they were under.

Colm



*KO Martial Arts South Side

ape_doc

Thats what I heard too, but it hard to know with these things, the official line seams to be that he retired.

I do think its time that this problem got solved the question is only how?

Dyr

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Submissions with younglings are not nearly as hazardous as you'd think.

At KOMASS* we train bent and straight armlocks to kids from 9-12. They do the set up without application. Older kids (post primary) can do chokes as well. No leg locks though, mainly because they're cheap my friend!

Actually rollling with newbs is far more hazardous, as they not only don't know when they're in danger, they'll move the "wrong" way and can hurt themselves or their training partner.

With kids, the notion of tapping is drilled into them long before they learn their first sub, and they spend time learning how to roll for position before they start onto subs.

We ran, for the first time, a junior subs division at the Dublin Open. I told all the guys competing that the moment I could recognise a sub I'd stop it. They were quite happy to have this rule. Most, if not all the times I stopped it, the other kids was tapping as well. Which is quite impressive, considering the adrenaline rush they were under.

Colm



*KO Martial Arts South Side

Makes sense. I can still see why they're disallowed in judo, given the size of the sport and huge range in standards/practices that would entail.

Nothingcompares

The problem with the IJA is that for the past few decades the organisation has been run by retards with a complete lack of integrity. Nobody currently active in the IJA administatration regardless of the xth Dans have ever acheived anything noteworthy in Judo.

Just look at the number of Judo clubs in Dublin and surronding area. How many of them are recently developed? How many of them have a thriving bunch of kids training? How many have a consistent group of teenagers raising through the ranks? You look at the judo clubs around and they've all been there for donkey's years run by old fogies.

As anyone here ever heard any advertising or promotion of the sport of judo? Up until very recently the website was a sham. People interested in joining judo for the first time as a beginner, returning to judo from an absnece of a number of years or foreginers traveling looking to continue their judo find IT TERRIBLY DIFFICULT to do so.

If you look at JudoIreland, their website, their clubs, the people involved in it, the activities and the progress they're trying to make, you can't help but feel they're moving quickly in the right direction while the IJA seems to be tumbling downhill.

I'm not sure what's going on with the resent resignations and promotions. What is usually the case at IJA AGMs is the current officers find out who is in support, who isn't, they nullify the voting powers of some of their opponents, they vote, they shuffle the cabinet and the same people do the same **** job again and again.

ape_doc

Its sad cos its true....
as they say on television "football is the winner"

Morse

I love Judo.

I hate politics.

ape_doc

Looks like the ball is rolling:

http://www.irishjudoassociation.ie/content/view/36/43/#jc_allComments

will be interesting to see who it crushes

judoka

The comments have been removed.

This is shocking. I wonder is it time for a protest/petition to the Sports Council yet?

ape_doc

shocking yet not suprising, I think its time alright

Burnt

There should be no need for recourse to the sports council. The IJA is a company incorporated for the express purposed of the promotion and adminstration of Judo in Ireland. The board of this company is answerable to and works for the shareholders or in this case the membership, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

When questions are asked there should be reseasoned answers not some smart assed condesending half truths passing the buck to the man they
just shafted.

http://www.irishjudoassociation.ie/content/view/38/43/.

Another Glib resposnse form the committee of public saftey

The Executive wrote:

Due to the personnel attacks on the office of the president, the executive have decided to suspend the comments service. The current executive is concerned with the future development of the association and not ill conceived and misrepresented comments posted anonymously. It is the intention to resume this service where all members will be able to access the comments using their membership number.

As a matter of clarification, all executive members have being elected by the body general to their respective posts, and it is open to those wishing to be involved on the national executive to put themselves forward at the next opportunity, our AGM of 2007


Signed
The Executive

I'm quite sure the administration is aware of this thread and is followings its progress. So if your not willing to have a open and public debate of your own site why no grow a pair and post here? At least try to defend your position, one can post comment equally anonymously here as well if it troubles you so. The silence is a deafing indictment.

ape_doc

could an ironic vote of no confidence be called for?

Burnt

IJA President wrote:

Frank has stated that his aim is to:

Increase membership

Communicate the role of the IJA to the general public

Allow members greater participation in the development of the IJA

Increase the activity levels of younger people in Ireland

Point 1,
in order to facilate this increase in membership the 1st move of the new regime was to excommunicate clubs and memebers for trying to achieve their full potential by interacting
with a many judoka and widening there persective regardless of the particular political creed

Point2,
in order to facilate this communication with the general public the ija intoduce a blog in which they refuse to answer questions and then remove altogether as they didnt like the questions. If when this blog is re-opened it will only be available to registered IJA members not the general public

Point 3,
see point 2

Point 4,
see point 1

As you can see from above ape_doc irony is seemingly lost on them

ape_doc

I can see that now, well made point

judoka

Because they were deleted, here are the posts as I have a record of them:

With Regard to the "Election" Result : Concerned Judoka
Sir/Madam,
As a concerned, independent judoka I wish request some clarification regarding the election of Francis Treanor as President of the IJA.
I would like to know why Liam Brennan has vacated the seat of president, given that he was elected by the members at the AGM several months ago. Given the fact that there was no member participation in the ordination of Mr Treanor, how can he have been deemed elected
Also, I wish to request the minutes of the meeting where the "election" was held be sent to all members and published online. I do this out of consideration for those judoka who may be confused at the recent turn of events.

Please contact me by email concernedjudoka@gmail.com so that further discourse might ensue between us.

Yours in Judo,
CJ.


September 26, 2006

Dear Sire/ Madam,
I wish to ask you why my message on this website was deleted earlier?
I wished to start a conversation on why the presidency has changed hands.
Please answer my questions publicly and in full in the interests of the members confused by the recent turn of events.
As before, feel free to contact me by email.
I wish to clarify that I am not a prankster, I am a full member of the IJA whit no ties to any of the parties involved who just requires some clarification as to what happened.

Regards,
CJ.

PS If you do not wish to enter into a discourse, would you at least reply to me as a courtesy to let me know that my message has been received and either passed on or ignored.

PPS Also, I wish to object to the google ads being shown on the website, they have no place here, are tacky and very often do not have any judo content. Surely the IJA are not stuck for money so as to require a few poxy ads on its website.

Mr Treanor,
In relation to the phrase "Feel free to reply to my Blog posts, this participation is appreciated and will help us make the association better" that I see above, I submitted a comment to the website on Tuesday night about the circumstances involved in your 'election' as president of the IJA. I am utterly confused about the recent turn of events and, as such, require clarification about what has happened in the last few weeks.
Also, I would appreciate it if my earlier comment was reinstated as I don't think that censoring people is the right thing to do, given that you have set your stall out as the new force for reinvigoration of Judo in Ireland.
As before, I am willing to enter into discourse with you about this matter, so that members can be informed of the circumstances and so we can all move forward together and concentrate on our core competency, Judo. So that we have a reinvigorated association whos focus is the betterment of the collective, going forward.

Yours in Judo,
CJ.

PS Please do not take this as a hoax, I am actually a full IJA member who just wants to see the best for the association.

Sir,
Would it be possible for you to publish Mr Brennans resignation letter online?

Yours in Judo,
CJ

Dear Sir,

It is with regret that I must agree with Mr. C. Judoka in the matters raised. The recent events have occurred behind closed doors with no explanation made to members. Since the 'election' there has been no notification of the change of President except via this website. Considering your aim to “allow members greater participation in the development of the IJA" surely this is a harsh contradiction of your professed intention. Presumably the letters got lost in the post.

In your responses to Mr. J's query about your promotion, you have failed to answer the question. It is not fair to defer Judo matters to Mr.Brennan, you are the President now. How is it that Mr. Brennan has just handed over his role without mention or excuse? After such a long time committed to Irish Judo, I fail to see that he would merely just get bored. Please make available the minutes of this meeting as requested by Mr. J.

In relation to Mr. M. Kelly’s point about the situation with Judo Ireland, I must congratulate you on your new website, though perhaps you might take a look at the http://www.irishjudoassociation.ie/content/view/15/33/ Guiding principles, especially the section about “fair play for all”. Understanding that you aim to “provide a sports environment that cares for all regardless of skills, potential or aspirations” we must all frankly agree that this is not the case, or it is if you don’t train with Judo Ireland. Can’t we all just get along? I hazard a guess that I am not the only IJA judoka that is tired of the situation. If we wish to salvage the IJA after its recent loss of members and interest we must simply stop this nitpicking and bickering with other associations and concentrate on our own.

Finally, Mr. Treanor, I think you know that your tongue-in-cheek and somewhat nonchalant approach to Mr. J’s comments is unwarranted. Though his approach may be facetious, his point is not. He is not the only concerned judoka, hence my signed name.

Yours in Judo,

Concerned Judoka 97

And their "please feel sorry for me" letter:

Due to the personnel attacks on the office of the
president, the executive have decided to suspend the comments service.
The current executive is concerned with the future development of the
association and not ill conceived and misrepresented comments posted
anonymously. It is the intention to resume this service where all members
will be able to access the comments using their membership number.

As a matter of clarification, all executive members have being elected by
the body general to their respective posts, and it is open to those wishing
to be involved on the national executive to put themselves forward at the
next opportunity, our AGM of 2007


Signed
The Executive

If anyone has the rest to hand, please post them... Google's cache facility can only go so far.

ape_doc

Good job on salvaging at least some of the comments. The fact that they shut down the blog once they started to hear what the didn't like really is very disappointing. So much for a new beginning. Really brings me back to one of my first point on this thread, Authoritarianism

...organization which seeks to dominate those within its sphere of influence and has little regard for building consensus...

sums it up very well I think.

The sad thing is that unless something is done all complaints will be ignored, and at the AGM anyone who might vote to remove the current administration will have their votes nullified. Been there done that.....:mad:

Colm_OReilly

Strange how this pro IJA thred was hijacked to become a anti IJA. It's very interesting from an outside perspective.

BUT I have to point out this is another reason why I don't like the Gi game. You don't see this sort of carry on in NOGI!

Yours in Natural Hooks,
Zen

NeiloMac

Dont get me wrong now. I am pro IJA but the way they closed down that blogg and refused to answer the questions of its members is disgraceful,

judoka

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Strange how this pro IJA thred was hijacked to become a anti IJA. It's very interesting from an outside perspective.

BUT I have to point out this is another reason why I don't like the Gi game. You don't see this sort of carry on in NOGI!

Yours in Natural Hooks,
Zen

Actually, I am neutral, I don't care either way. Most of the time I think they are as bad as each other.

With all due respect, ColmOReilly, I know you are a moderator and all, but do you have to hijack every thread and turn it into a pro vs anti gi discussion/debate/wankfest?

Some of us are concerned at the lack of communication and consultation from the IJA over the running of judo in Ireland and we need a forum for public discussion. In this, I'm sure I can speak for all contributors when I say that we are grateful for the use of Boards.ie in this matter. Please don't try to take over this thread. I'm sure that there are people who feel the need to have the pro vs anti gi debate almost every time Judo is mentioned on this forum, however I just want to know if it can be done in a separate thread.

Thanks for the opportunity. And Colm, if you feel offended I'm sorry... Its just as moderator you are the most visible, but not necessarily the worst offender.

Burnt

Judoka thats harsh, to be fair think Colm may have been making a joke to lighten the mood slightly.

Dyr

I demand a pro-gi amendment be added to the boards constitution :mad:.

ape_doc

I think there is some truth in Judokas post. I think dialog is needed in this situation, and there have been some sidetracks from the main subject of this thread (ie Irish Judo Association move against Judo Ireland ) however maybe it could have been said differently? That's my take on it anyway.

Nothingcompares

Colm is entitled to make what ever comments he likes as long as their relevant in some way to the discussion, regardless of his moderatorship. If a thread steers off course take the responsiblity to steer it back on track yourself.

It's not just the foot soldiers that have little or no faith in the IJAm the Irish Olymic Council aren't their biggest fans either.

It's all well and good to say you've no interest in politics but you love judo when you're just a club player. But anyone involved in the big competitoins (not me btw) surely will be a bit annoyed when what little funding does come in it goes towards things like referree courses in portugal, conviently close to golf courses etc etc.

How many full time Judo clubs are there in Ireland? How many full time MMA clubs? How many Judoka are there? How many MMA ppl? There are tonnes more people involved in Judo but it still remains underfunded compared to MMA, despite the government sponsorship Judo gets.

The National Training Centre in Finglas, lovely place, descent stuff but who trains there and how often? Othen than the grading and so forth nothing much happens there to the best of my knowledge.

Colm_OReilly

Please read

Burnt understood the light hearted comment. Now I have to dish out some punishment.

As a reader, I thought the thread was interesting. Not being involved with Judo and having only heard about Judo from prop JI sources I found it interesting that Judo in Ireland was in such a turmultuous state.

As a mod, there was a question of whether IJA would raise an opposition to this with me, as some parts could be considered slanderous. I decided to leave it open and see how it developed.

All posters on this board should understand that threads will vary off their original intention. It happens in all conversations, it's just more noticable when the timescale is distorted through the medium or internet and the original comments are semi permanent, affording people to view the entire discussion.

With respect to the gi/nogi debate. Most posters understand this to be a joke, and do not entertain it on anything other than a jovial level.

As for this comment;

And Colm, if you feel offended I'm sorry... Its just as moderator you are the most visible, but not necessarily the worst offender.

As the Moderator I can't be an Offender. Just like the US can't break international law because they decide what international law is.

Drunk on Power,
Colm

judoka

Hi all, I'll take your comments on board.

Nothingcompares, you make 2 very good points:
1. Regarding moderators - They may have a right to post what they like, but I don't know what teaching children armlocks has to do with the current discussion. Its an extremely relevant topic in its own right, but to post it within another topic doesn't actually do it justice. Hopefully my previous post wasn't interpreted as a personal attack on the moderators, its just that I've been reading this board for a while and I'm slightly annoyed by the way topics seem to sidetrack by page 2 or 3. But then again, thats the posters responsibility as much as the moderator.

2. Regarding the funding - Who are the IJA accountable to? They certainly haven't produced satisfactory accounts for the last 2 years. As they are a limited company shouldn't they be audited every year by the Companies Office.

Hopefully that has steered things back on track.

Burnt

IIRC Due to the nature of the incorporation of the IJA, a company of limited liability holding no share capital, and the relatively small turn over it is exempt from returning accounts, though is required to have a set repaired year on year, should a audit etc.. come about.

I'm open to correction here

ape_doc

so would it be possible to demand to see these accounts?
Assume it should be, but I could be very wrong on this.

The_Radiator

don't they publish them at AGMs? The last, and only AGM I went to about 5 years ago if not more, they had a overhead projector with their accounts on them.