Kevin Myers article in the indo on immigration

nuttz · 01-09-2006 04:07AM

Blisterman wrote:

Personally I think immigration is a good thing. PROVIDED, that the immigrants make an attempt to integrate.

I agree.

With regard to education and the number of immigrant's children in schools:
the problem with this is that teachers end up spending more time with these children because English is not the spoken language at home, this results in the children with native parents losing out. Additional teachers need to be a priority in these schools, which in itself would probably cause other problems because the kids are being segregated from the other children.

Sgt. Sensible · 01-09-2006 05:13AM

Sgt. Politeness wrote:

And i dont know if people have actually noticed this but you know, Ireland isnt that big.

The Republic of Ireland is the same size as Belgium and Holland combined.

Population of the ROI - 4 million
Combinded population of Belgium and Holland - 26 million.

Myers is trolling. There is no "left/liberal" agenda. Ireland has the weakest most insignificant left in Europe. Irish people on the whole do not care about their rights as workers. They are afraid of negotiating with employers for better wages or conditions. They do not care that our schools and hospitals are embarrassments. They care about SSIAs, property prices, drink and drugs. And that's why they vote the way they do, if they vote at all.

Instead of looking in the mirror for once, it's much easier to blame brown people for all their woes.

il gatto · 01-09-2006 06:41AM

I have to say, I feel ainemolloy has raised some saliant issues. Although Ireland has many hardened criminals of her own, the fact of the matter is that the Gardai know most of them and they have records. What do the Gardai know of an immigrant criminals past or modus operandi. Nowt usually.
With regards to those statistics Sgt. Sensible. Holland and Belgium may be much more densely populated, but the point made was that in terms of ratio, Ireland is fast becoming massively imbalanced. Holland and Belgium are capable of absorbing immigrants due to their populations.
Another factor is that it's all happening much too fast. From a very, very low level, Irelands immigrant population has risen expidentially. The change has been too much in too short of time. Holland, France, Britain, Germany etc. had decades to adjust and assimilate. A luxury not being given to the Irish. Many people feel we should welcome all and not raise concerns outside of how best to accomodate our new neighbours.
I also feel that too much is made of thanking our immigrant population for our booming economy. A quick trawl through our recent past would show that the boom had started, after alot of hard work, before immigration had gone through the roof. No doubt, immigrants have helped continue the boom, but when it ends, and it will end, what then?
I like the multicultural aspect of immigration, and have made friends with many immigrants, but we have to realise that an indigenous population as small as Ireland can only handle so much. Britain, with a population of 60million people has 300'00 Poles living there. Ireland, with a population of 4million has 120,000. Do the maths

Pal · 01-09-2006 08:35AM

ainemolloy1 wrote:

The point I am making is that the open door system is not working and allowing practically anybody that fancies it into a country is a receipe for disaster.

Ireland does not have 'an open door system' nor do we allow in 'practically anybody'.

We may have shortcomings in immigration policy and legislation but what you are saying is just wrong.

fly_agaric · 01-09-2006 09:47AM

darkman2 wrote:

the left liberal agenda which makes it 'racist' to discuss any of the practicalities with immigration:rolleyes:

All the politicians of every stripe really love massive immigration either because a) they are true bleeding heart "left-liberals" who want to do their bit to heal the misery of humanity starting at home [well, so long as the healees don't actually, you know, end up living too close to them! Might lower the tone somewhat and put property prices down!] or b) they want to keep the workforce on its toes, curtail union power, and keep wages lower.
I suppose at least type b's favourite type of immigration (skilled workers) may help the economy, while type a's (poverty stricken asylum seekers from the really, really bad to live in parts of the world) probably doesn't.
So I'd say, no politicians really want to discuss those issues. Left-liberal or no.
They'd be mad to go around drawing attention to the downsides of something they think is just wonderful.

ziggy · 01-09-2006 11:30AM

This post has been deleted.

Jambo · 01-09-2006 11:31AM

I work in the Dublin west area and all the Fathers and Mothers who have their kids in schools in D15 or mostly concerned by the fact that teaching resourses are been stretched to breaking point by the sheer dedication and time needed by the teaching staffs to focus on the students who do not have english as their primary language.

Hence the National and Non national english speaking kids are missing out .. maybe when I comes to the junior cert time of these pupils we may see a drop off in so called record results.

bill_ashmount · 01-09-2006 11:44AM

Have to say, a fantastic article. These are serious issues which are going to come to a head in Europe and America in the next 50 years. People can deny it and say everything is rosy but when you look at countries like The Netherlands it's hard to see how that country will continue to exist in it's present form with the rapid changes that are happpening to it's ethnic and social mix.

Interesting times ahead.

gazzer · 01-09-2006 12:16PM

There was a guy on Newstalk the other day (think he was head of a teachers organisation) he was saying that any school that has non - nationals gets allocated up to 2 teachers if the school has up to 28 non national children. These teachers will primarilly deal with teaching the children English.

But then the guy went on to say that 2 teachers is the max they will get.. So it makes no difference if the school has 28 or 100 non national children.. they only get the benefit of 2 teachers. Apparantly some schools are turning away children if they have reached their quota of 28 while other schools are taking in a lot more than that. The teachers want Mary Hanifin to allocate more teachers to the schools that take in above the 28 child limit.

ainemolloy1 · 01-09-2006 12:20PM

Pal wrote:

Ireland does not have 'an open door system' nor do we allow in 'practically anybody'.

We may have shortcomings in immigration policy and legislation but what you are saying is just wrong.

In relation to the above maybe what I say is wrong but it is what is being perceived in my community, amongst some of my friends communities, and amongst some migrant communities here. The official line spun by civil servants does not neccesarily reflect the reality.

I remember working on a site last summer and asking two different Polish delivery guys how many Poles they thought were in Ireland at the time, these two fellas told me separately that they thought there was about 100k Poles spread throughout the country. I remember switching on my TV a few weeks later and a politician was telling the interviewer that there was about 60k Poles in Ireland???

Fast forward to Spring of 2006 and there was a lady from some Polish organisation on the telly telling us there was 85k Poles here at the time.
This rang alarm bells with me at the time from what the other two fellas told me nearly a year previous.

I switched on my Sunday Morning radio a couple of weeks back and there was some esteemed panalist (economist, politician, someone like that) telling the nation that there is maybe 120k - 150k Poles here but that the true figures are unknown!

I also remember asking a Romanian fella on the site that summer, how many Romanians were here at the time, (don't get me wrong I don't go around asking immigrants how many of them are here all the time, it's just something to talk about); anyway he told me about 30k. I asked my Romanian friend about this (who incidentally had previously been deported from Ireland some years back, but found his way back in), he agreed and told me that the vast vast majority of these people are illegal, because it's very difficult for Romanians to get the permits. I know you may say that the fact that they can't get permits is proof that there is no open door policy, and maybe officially you're right, but unofficially?

I also remember there was an investigation by the Irish Times a few years back on the language schools operating in Dublin for (at the time anyhow) mainly Chinese students. One school consisted of two lecture rooms with maybe 40-50 desks in all. This particular school had something like 2000 students currently enrolled. Where did they all sit? This was only one of many these schools in Dublin taking the piss.

I know somebody more knowledgeable than me will pick holes in this, as my figures are not 100% accurate and this is all anecdotal anyway, but please don't tell me that the system is working when these are the things I hear and see.

punky · 01-09-2006 12:20PM

Some reasons why immigration is, by and large, a good thing for Ireland:

1. We need workers. Most Irish people are no longer willing to do menial work.
2. It's good for the gene pool. Anyone else noticed how many more good looking people there are in Ireland these days? Time to breed out past inbreeding.
3. It adds colour and life to the country. The most obvious examples are the rejuvenation of decaying inner city areas and the growing populations of country areas that were practically dead 20 years ago.
4. It's good for Irish people to come into contact with foreigners, to learn from them and become more informed and cosmopolitan.
5. In the case of asylum seekers, it's our duty as part of the EU and our moral duty as humans fortunate enough to live in a wealthy country.
6. In the case of EU migrant workers, it's our duty as part of the EU which has given Ireland so much over the years. And remember we all have the right to work in any EU country too. Why not go teach English in Poland for a while?

As for Myers' argument that some Muslim countries don't allow non-Muslim immigrants so we should do the same, should we really sink to their level?

Ireland's muslim population is still quite small and will remain so until the time that Turkey enters the EU. There is no real evidence that Muslims here have been radicalised and as long as we have a fair and just foreign policy there is no reason that we will ever be victims of Islamic terrorism.

Hobbes · 01-09-2006 12:56PM

Anyone see the news today about lack of school places? They were filming at a school in West Dublin and the vast majority of the students were black(btw im not racist, it was just an observation) I was stunned.

Having lived in a number countries which aren't as hermit like Ireland in regards to the rest of the world I can understand why you were shocked.

But the real point is, so what? So there are black school children in our schools? Whats the problem? Are we scared our children are going to get too much black if they stand too close to them or something?

As for Kevin Myers, its like a male version of Ann Coulter.

Karl Hungus · 01-09-2006 01:03PM

I'm all in favour of immigration. Why? Because I want to be an immigrant. Yep, my plans are to feck off to Japan and make a new life for myself there, maybe even a family.

In fairness, I don't see the situation in Ireland getting any better. Look what's happened in France, and then tell me what the hell are the Irish doing to prevent it? Mindless optimism!

So, you can keep your optimism, and hope that everything magically turns out for the better, because I'm jumping ship!

stovelid · 01-09-2006 01:08PM

Handy site http://www.bugmenot.com/ for when this happens....

julep wrote:

could someone copy and paste the article in question, please.
it's subscription and i can't remember my password and i'm too lazy to look for it. thanks.

scojones · 01-09-2006 01:19PM

When are you off Karl? And how the hell will you get Midleton out there?

Karl Hungus · 01-09-2006 01:26PM

sjones wrote:

When are you off Karl? And how the hell will you get Midleton out there?

No idea yet on either question.

Terry · 01-09-2006 01:43PM

there's a lot of hearsay and conjecture in this thread. please cut it out.
i don't want to delete any posts. i want to leave this thread as it is because i feel it is something very important re the future of this country.

stick to the facts. i don't want to see any more 'friend of a friend told me' stories.

darkman2 · 01-09-2006 02:04PM

Hobbes wrote:

Having lived in a number countries which aren't as hermit like Ireland in regards to the rest of the world I can understand why you were shocked.

But the real point is, so what? So there are black school children in our schools? Whats the problem? Are we scared our children are going to get too much black if they stand too close to them or something?

As for Kevin Myers, its like a male version of Ann Coulter.

Ive already said its irrelevant what colour they are:)

One or Two posters brought up Canada. I dont like these comparisons because Canada is not off a continent that shares a landmass with Asia, Africa and Eastern Europe. We have to be more careful IMHO. We dont want ghetto's but the way were going this is inevitable. Take Parnell Street as what could possibly become our first ghetto. Cities all over the world have ghetto's, I agree but if we use a bit of sense we need not descend into the type of ghettoisation they have. Ireland is a small country and we have to be honest and say that we are struggling to cope. Immigrants have only started comming here since the economy started booming. Thats alright, no problem with that but we should not be so lenient on immigration policy. It has not worked on the continent, it most certainly wont work here. We should be learning from the obvious mistakes on the continent and in the UK but I feel we are not doing that. If we dont we are setting ourselves up for problems.

Terry · 01-09-2006 02:30PM

the last thing this country needs is ghettoes.
picture it. gang of scumbags walk into ghetto and start beating up the locals. ghetto scumbags retaliate and then we end up with a new version of the 'ra.

the thing about Ireland is, there is an underlying fear of foreigners coming here and taking over the place. you know, because of the whole british thing.
this is something that needs to be taken into account (and should have been by the government, but they're complete jackasses).

i think immigration should be slowed down for a while to allow those new to the country to assimilate to Ireland and our ways.

cead mile failte...99,999 failte...99,998 failte...

EDIT: someone made a comment about the irony of kevin myers (a brit) moaning about immigration in Ireland.
ever spoken to an english person?
the majority of english people i have spoken to are under the impression that Ireland is part of britan.
now a pedant might want to jump in here and say that we are, because Ireland is one of the british isles. technically it is, but only because the brits said so. i'll be pedantic and say that britan is a derivative of britannia, the roman name forengland and wales and that hibernia is the roman name for Ireland. therefore we are not part of the british isles.

Pal · 01-09-2006 02:46PM

julep wrote:

therefore we are not part of the british isles.

Yes we are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_isles

Dyr · 01-09-2006 02:49PM

Hobbes wrote:

Having lived in a number countries which aren't as hermit like Ireland in regards to the rest of the world I can understand why you were shocked.

But the real point is, so what? So there are black school children in our schools? Whats the problem? Are we scared our children are going to get too much black if they stand too close to them or something?

As for Kevin Myers, its like a male version of Ann Coulter.

i'd imagine the problem is because schools in poor areas are under resourced enough without further diluting the funds for basic english teachers.

Oh and non nationals are often used by those no good liberal PC types in education and the meedja as wedge's to push their agenda so non national kids might be treated as white elephants.. to the detriment of yer common or gardner disadvantaged nipper.

jesus, i remember having green politics rammed down me throat in primary school during heiritage lesson's and then liberal social policy indoctrination masquerading as SES classes, god only knows what those tweed-wearing fiends are up to now that they have genuine minorities to play with

Oddly enough i went to a school with half african and chinese kids etc but they were just treated same as any kid because they were. Bet that wont happen now :eek:

darkman2 · 01-09-2006 02:51PM

That term is, by definition, wrong. Its an antagonistic term the British use and they know bloody well it has no basis in fact when they use it. Fact is stick 'Republic' in front of Ireland so that they know its not part of the UK:)

btw what this has to do with immigration in Ireland Im not sure??

Terry · 01-09-2006 03:00PM

darkman2 wrote:

That term is, by definition, wrong. Its an antagonistic term the British use and they know bloody well it has no basis in fact when they use it. Fact is stick 'Republic' in front of Ireland so that they know its not part of the UK:)

btw what this has to do with immigration in Ireland Im not sure??

it was just a little rant about the attitude of british people to Ireland, which stemmed from the person who pointed out the irony of kevin myers writing about immigration in Ireland.

for the record, I, personally, do not recognise the term 'british isles' when used in reference to our fair country.

screw it. i'll just start a new thread.

Nevyn · 01-09-2006 03:17PM

There is a crisis in reguards to schools in this country.

Even in places that do not have large influxes of non irish fmailies with children due to the urban sprawl and with all the new building of housing estate quiet simply schools are not part of the planning proceedure.

This needs to change.

The fact we still have children being taught in prefab buildings despite the in some cases ten years of promises of new real building needs to change.

Additions to schools should not be prefab buildings in the first place.

How Primary schools are set up and funded is quiet frankly a shambles in this country.

That needs to be tackled and the nationality of the children who are seeking places in a school should not be used to muddy this issue and to raise ill feelings.

Hobbes · 01-09-2006 03:24PM

Bambi wrote:

i'd imagine the problem is because schools in poor areas are under resourced enough without further diluting the funds for basic english teachers.

Of course you make the obvious assumption that because they don't look like us they must not be Irish. Or for that matter he referred to school children. Last time I checked it was a requirement of all school children to learn English.

If anything it tells me is there will be more openings up for teachers in the country.

But the lack of schools is an issue and has been even before the influx of extra people to this country.

I remember having green politics rammed down me throat in primary school during heiritage lesson's and then liberal social policy indoctrination masquerading as SES classes, god only knows what those tweed-wearing fiends are up to now that they have genuine minorities to play with

About the only thing green lessons I recall in school is the no littering (because lets face it Ireland was a **** hole back then with litter).

Oddly enough i went to a school with half african and chinese kids etc but they were just treated same as any kid because they were. Bet that wont happen now :eek:

Your probably right.

Terry · 01-09-2006 03:27PM

Thaedydal wrote:

There is a crisis in reguards to schools in this country.

Even in places that do not have large influxes of non irish fmailies with children due to the urban sprawl and with all the new building of housing estate quiet simply schools are not part of the planning proceedure.

This needs to change.

The fact we still have children being taught in prefab buildings despite the in some cases ten years of promises of new real building needs to change.

Additions to schools should not be prefab buildings in the first place.

How Primary schools are set up and funded is quiet frankly a shambles in this country.

That needs to be tackled and the nationality of the children who are seeking places in a school should not be used to muddy this issue and to raise ill feelings.

all very good points, especially the last one.
however, the one i highlighted is debatable.
my secondary school was completely prefabricated buildings. it made absolutely no difference to how we were taught.
well, they built 4 proper rooms, but that was near the end of my time there.

ainemolloy1 · 01-09-2006 04:05PM

julep wrote:

there's a lot of hearsay and conjecture in this thread. please cut it out.
i don't want to delete any posts. i want to leave this thread as it is because i feel it is something very important re the future of this country.

stick to the facts. i don't want to see any more 'friend of a friend told me' stories.

You're right, I went off on a bit of a tangent but the point I was really trying to make is that I don't know what a lot of the 'facts' are regarding this issue. They are not being dealt with in the media, and our policy makers send out agendas and opinions on the issue, that I see as being somewhat at odds with the reality on the ground. If people from these groups honestly tell me issues regarding what is happening in their own communities , I regard this as a more solid 'fact' then what the politican or spin doctor from D4 or wherever tells me.

Terry · 01-09-2006 04:19PM

you make a good point there regarding spin doctors.
we all know that there is a problem, but people do seem to fear mentioning it in case they are called racist.
i'm of the school of thought that we are repaying our debt to the world by allowing so many immigrants into this country, but a line has to be drawn somewhere.

we simply do not have the proper infrastructure to house and school immigrants properly at the moment. this needs to be solved, but nobody in government seems to be doing anything about it.

it appears that this is all boiling down to pure greed on the governments part and i don't like that.
we will end up like britain and france if the current trend continues.

i also believe that anyone coming here should have a basic grasp of english, just as anyone from here going to say, germany, should have at least a basic grasp of german. that would cut down on the 'me no speaka da english' problems that the gardai and courts are facing on a daily basis.

i have an idea. now this may seem radical, but it's actually very simple.
here goes. why don't we all write/ e-mail our local TD's and voice our opinions on the current infrastructure regarding housing and schooling for immigrants. if enough people do it, then we may actually see something done about the problem.

also, with the election next year, i suggest bringing this up when a candidate calls to your house.

il gatto · 01-09-2006 04:19PM

Whether anyone here is in favour of mass immigration or not, the fact remains that the rapidity of the change is too much. It's fine to say it brings so much to our culture, economy and looks, apparently (punky?), but the speed of the change is akin to an invasion. Without wishing to stir up ill feeling, I feel it's the best term, being the reverse of an exodus.
All in all, I think Irish people have coped extremely well, considering the situation less than a decade ago. If someone told me then that we would have more immigrants come into Ireland in one year, than the amount of babies born in that year, I, firstly wouldn't have believed it, and secondly, I would have expected uproar from the majority and open antagonism on the streets. In the main, this hasn't happened. This hospitality is now being abused by the government, who seem intent on making no effort to stem the flow. If people feel that they're views are being ignored by the government, it sows the seeds for bigotry, conflict and vigilanteism. At the current rate, it's only a matter of time.:(

IronMan · 01-09-2006 05:54PM

While I tend to ignore the musings of Myers, this article raises some interesting points. Rational debate is needed on mass immigration into a small country such as ours.. Myers tries to put the lack of debate and the use of the racist card down to the loony left. Tbh we do not really have a large left wing movement. There are the usual suspects in RTE, but it is not a breeding ground of stickies and Marxists as people like Myers and Eoin Harris would like you to believe. The two biggest selling papers in Ireland are the Sindo and the Indo, both papers that are to the ‘right’ of centre, and who’s columnists reach a wider audience that any left wing publication like Village magazine.

I believe the lack of debate and effective fair legislation is a result of government inaction. We need immigration to support the booming ‘economy’. We swell with pride when we hear that we are the 2nd richest country in the world. “Would you look at Paddy, didn’t he turn out good?” Anyone who questions this relentless pursuit of wealth (by a minority) is seen as a crank, a pinko, a begrudger. “Everyone has two houses, a Latvian nanny and breast implants these day, don’t they? You do not? Did you not up skill, outsource and ride the money wave?, Loser”. However, the average joe soap is not that much better off, he has the trappings of luxury, wrapped in a 40 year mortgage, whilst his children live in some sprawling estate. Access to quality education services is still a pipe dream. His commute gets longer and longer. Nevertheless, he must keep up with next door.

In came the jobs, based on a shortsighted tax policy. The government prattle on about a knowledge economy. Bullsh*t. These jobs are here because we offer large grants and little or no tax on profits. We needed immigrants to work in the low-end jobs no one else wanted anymore. So in they came to work for the minimum wage (and below it) for exploitative bosses, obsessed with money, riddled with the crippling disease known as greed. House prices rise, based on a booming rental market, speculation by the same minority who for the most part do the exploiting in the first place. Low cost labour keeps the economy afloat. No one in government either has the vision or the balls to question the strategy of allowing thousands of immigrants in, without any support structures, any means of integrating them in their new communities, or preventing them from being exploited. Christ we do not even know the amount of immigrants in the country, never mind their names, occupations or where they live. How can we assimilate and incorporate them into our society if we have no structures in place. Racism and bitterness are the results of peoples lack of knowledge, the lack of having a say in the future of the country, the total lack of leadership.

Our politicians are failing the citizens of this state, they are failing the immigrants all in the pursuit of this mythical Celtic tiger. It doesn’t benefit anyone to have no controls in place. It leads to resentment on both sides, exploitation of migrants, the forming of cliques and eventually ghettos. It leads to people falling between the cracks and ending up homeless on the streets. It leads to people from Lithuania being harried by organised crime gangs from their own country. It leads to a booming sex industry, trading in human misery. The stifling of debate, the inability to hear opposing and possibly difficult opinions, the inability to make difficult calls, the inability to show any kind of leadership and visionary skills is what is making this a future touch paper of seething hatred. The short term pursuit of money for a minority of our citizens is what is causing this. Ireland is no better off with mass immigration, just as it was worse when we had none at all. Our citizens are no better off with this pursuit of wealth, increased suicide, drug taking and violence are signs of a rotten core in society. Immigrants come here hoping for a better life, and instead join the bottom rung of society. I would prefer to see less immigration, but those who do arrive to have the chance to work in any section of society. Accepting our form of mass immigration as an entirely positive thing is a narrow sighted view. It may be done with the best of intentions, but those who experience it are not seeing the benefits. You get who you vote (or don’t vote for).

Kevin Myers article in the indo on immigration

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