Kevin Myers article in the indo on immigration

darkman2

Hi I have a point to make or an observation if you will:

Anyone see the news today about lack of school places? They were filming at a school in West Dublin and the vast majority of the students were black:eek:(btw im not racist, it was just an observation) I was stunned. I forsee serious problems in this country down the line. We were meant to learn from the UK experience not follow them into their mess. I was reading an article by Kevin Myers in the indo today and he is genuinely concerned. So the news that more foreigners are buying homes here should not come as a supprise but perhaps should be taken as a warning shot at the left liberal agenda which makes it 'racist' to discuss any of the practicalities with immigration:rolleyes:

Myers point was that no country in the world has ever successfully assimilated minority groups into society and that we are setting ourselves up for a major shock over the coming years: a cultural shock that most of us will probrably find difficult to except. Immigration is, of course, a good thing but ive concerns that we cannot cope as a society with the influx:(

Dudess

Probably more suited to News/Media, Politics or Humanities.

Terry

probably, but maybe the OP wanted this in AH, where we provide our own unique replies and then get the thread locked.

over to you, darkman2.
do you want this here?
really? do you?

mike65

Why the :eek:? Unfortunately you mention Myers which means this thread will be dominated by people dissing him rather than discussing the subject at hand. The influx has been big and rapid and actually mainly white so I would'nt concenrate on race as the primary issue.

Whether Ireland explodes into ethnic warfare or not will depend on if the Irish can assimilate and if the incomers are willing to be assimilated. The best way forward is not the French model (speak French or die) or the UK model (please yourselves), its the education model that'll work.

So we're fvcked then.

Mike.

darkman2

julep wrote:

probably, but maybe the OP wanted this in AH, where we provide our own unique replies and then get the thread locked.

over to you, darkman2.
do you want this here?
really? do you?

hmmmm I think I want it here:

Politics: Well its not overly political

Humanities: hmmmmm full of bleeding hearts anyway

News/Media: suppose but not the most populated of forums

AH: I want the views of the average Joe on the street (without the muppetry of course):D



Mike, like I say the fact they where black is just an observation. Feel free to criticise though...........

Terry

darkman2 wrote:

hmmmm I think I want it here:

Politics: Well its not overly political

Humanities: hmmmmm full of bleeding hearts anyway

News/Media: suppose but not the most populated of forums

AH: I want the views of the average Joe on the street (without the muppetry of course):D



Mike, like I say the fact they where black is just an observation. Feel free to criticise though...........

ok. fair enough. i will ask that people obey the charter though.
this is quite topical and i would like to see some partially thought out replies.

don't come crying to me if i ban you for blatant racism and don't go crying in feedback either because i have already warned you.
(that's not directed at the OP. it's a general statement to all who post here).

EDIT: could someone copy and paste the article in question, please.
it's subscription and i can't remember my password and i'm too lazy to look for it. thanks.

Flukey

The problems with the schools is that they are not big enough to support the amount of children (origins not important) that want to go to them. We need bigger and/or more schools. As to the integration problem, getting children of all nationalities to mix from their first day in school is the best way to integrate them.

casanova_kid

I think Irish people should have preference for school places if that's what the topic is about first. Look after your own.
The preferable idea would be to plan ahead for this influx of immigrants and try to cater for every one.
But point 1 should come before point 2.

darkman2

julep wrote:

ok. fair enough. i will ask that people obey the charter though.
this is quite topical and i would like to see some partially thought out replies.

don't come crying to me if i ban you for blatant racism and don't go crying in feedback either because i have already warned you.
(that's not directed at the OP. it's a general statement to all who post here).

EDIT: could someone copy and paste the article in question, please.
it's subscription and i can't remember my password and i'm too lazy to look for it. thanks.

Cheers, I would paste it but cant because for some strange reason Myers is so brilliant we cant read it over the internet on Unison, you have to buy the paper.lol

Terry

did you ever read a post and think "jesus christ, you're gonna be slaughtered for saying that"?

darkman2

casanova_kid wrote:

I think Irish people should have preference for school places if that's what the topic is about first. Look after your own.
The preferable idea would be to plan ahead for this influx of immigrants and try to cater for every one.
But point 1 should come before point 2.

I agree, i wouldnt like to think Irish children are missing out at the expense of foreign children. I dont think that is the case but you never know......

darkman2

julep wrote:

did you ever read a post and think "jesus christ, you're gonna be slaughtered for saying that"?

lol!!!!!!!!!! Note the sarcasm man (personally I think Myers is a bit of a p****) however I tolerated it today because he actually had a dig at the Brits, for once.;)

Flukey

Casanova, many of those kids were born and bred here, so they are Irish. So should we exclude all the English, American, Australian, Canadian etc. kids, or kids of Irish parents that were born abroad? The schools are there for all the people. The preference should be for anyone that wants a place. That is the only criteria that matters. But we know all that, so lets not get into a debate about that aspect of it.

The real problem is that there are not enough school places for those that want them. That is the one and only issue. We need more schools. They are building thousands of houses but not providing the services to support them. That can't be blamed on the people who live there or where they came from. The answer is to provide the school places, so that everyone that wants one can go. Get on to the minister for education.

darkman2

Here is the article from the Indo:

Irish Independent:

Would we prefer 250,000 Polish migrants, or Pakistanis instead?
KEVIN MYERS
THE most important thing to remember is that if you ignore a problem, it will always go away. For example, the British ignored the problem of immigration for decades, because a) the left-liberals said it was racist to discuss the issue, and b) immigration would never present a problem. And they were right, for one day the problem simply vanished.


Wait a minute. That’s not quite what happened, is it? For one-quarter of British Muslims in certain circumstances approve of suicide bombings. Hundreds of thousands of people born in Britain have little or no loyalty to the land of their birth and identify instead with international Islam. English cricketers of Pakistani origin are viciously barracked in a weird inverse-racism by their fellow Anglo-Pakistanis because they’re playing for England. Islamic terrorist conspiracies have cost scores of lives and might have cost thousands.


But we’re not going to talk about it now because a) it is racist to talk about such things, and b) immigration will never present a problem in Ireland. Right?


Regular readers will be aware I have written often on this topic. I do so because if we get this wrong now, we get it wrong for ever < as the British, the Dutch, the French, the Danes have discovered. And that’s today. What their countries will be like in half a century’s time is a matter of speculation. Not pleasant, is what I’d guess.


The mass movement of workers from eastern Europe is quite different, and the resulting problems largely short-term. However, assimilating these people, and their children, will take time and effort. How did we prepare for this phenomenon? Well, we did the usual Irish thing of displaying “feelings” to win an argument.


“Efforts have been to foment fears migrants from the made that new member states could flock to Ireland,” said Brian Cowen, usually a sensible chap, but back in 2002 he was talking out of his bottom. “This is not only unpleasant but plainly wrong.”


Unpleasant, eh? Willie O’Dea was using his righteous emotions when he uttered these imperishable words: “The second myth is that the Nice Treaty will mean mass immigration from the new EU member countries. This is probably the most odious of the myths propagated by some in the ‘No’ campaign.”


Denouncing the truth as unpleasant and odious: the great Irish intellectual tradition. Another great forecaster was Europe-minister Dick Roche. “No reason to believe . . . that large numbers of workers will wish to come.” (July 2002).


“The same rules are going to apply to all 15 states. There is no evidence to suggest that the people of the Czech Republic or Poland are less anxious to stay in their home as we are.” (September 2002). Wrong, wrong, wrong.


The greatest genius at immigration-forecasting was Proinsias De Rossa, who might have been expected to know something of Eastern European countries, given that he was once such a fan. However, this Michael Fish of the former Styx proved to be as wrong about immigration as the BBC weather forecaster was about hurricanes. “It is a deliberate misrepresentation to suggest that tens of thousands will suddenly descend en masse on Ireland . . . The expected trickle of immigration will on balance benefit the Irish economy. I estimate that fewer than 2000 will choose our distant shores each year.” (August 2002).


Two thousand, eh? Well, this Stygian Cerberus was as idiotic about that as he once was about the glories of the Marxist state. But, of course, he was wrong on the right bien-pensant side, so his grotesque forecasts are quietly forgotten in the censorious salons of the politically correct.


Of course, we have benefited from immigration. But there have to be limits both to the numbers and the type. Ask yourself the big P question: “Do I want 250,000 Poles coming to Ireland, or 250,000 Pakistanis?”


A TD might wonder that privately, with the door locked < but would he or she dare ask it in public? Yet the terror of what Islam can mutate into is now rife across Europe. Making a bawdy joke on television about the Virgin Mary shopping in Anne Summers or Jesus visiting a brothel might properly earn you stern denunciations; but make a mildly irreverent remark about Mohammed and you literally could have your throat cut, not in Baghdad or Islamabad, but in Birmingham or Berlin. (Note how carefully I have phrased the comparison: I want to live).


This is crazy. Islam is now effectively deciding the cultural agenda in every country across Europe, simply because some Muslims feel entitled to murder people who offend their religious feelings.


The appalling lesson seems to be that wherever you have a sizeable Muslim population, you will have at least the threat of religious terrorism. So should we restrict Muslim immigration to Ireland? ask not as a proposal, but as a topic for debate. After all, nonMuslim immigrants do not get full legal and residential rights in Saudi, Pakistan or indeed any Muslim country. Moreover, no assimilation of Islamic mass immigration has ever occurred in any society anywhere. Not India, not Africa, not Indonesia, not Holland, not Britain.


But would it be too odious or unpleasant to discuss this also?

Tha Gopher

julep wrote:

probably, but maybe the OP wanted this in AH, where we provide our own unique replies and then get the thread locked.

over to you, darkman2.
do you want this here?
really? do you?

I must say, to see such a sensible quote from a mod is good. I hope when the thread locked by one of the others you might re open it, seeing as its a discussion forum after all.

I read the article. Im not sure if we are facing the same as England and France. Basically, theyre situation is that in the likes of Oldham or the ghettos of Paris, you will find huge amounts of the youth in support of Bin Laden. Now, in much the same way as most Ra heads i know are users of illegal drugs, which the Ra deplores, probably most of the lads in Oldham and North Paris who proclaim Bin Laden support are preoccupied with drinking, dope smoking and general western behaviour. Like the ra boys, it doesnt stop their love of OBL. The problem is if even only 3 or 4 decide to follow this nonsense through with action it creates a problem.

I dont think Ireland faces this threat. Apart from the South Circular Road I dont know of any primarily muslim area of Dublin, they seem too small a group to create their own area and ensue the probs that Oldham and France have had. And none of the muslims Ive known ever cared about any of it.

My 2 cents.....

Sgt. Politeness

I give this about 5 minutes until its locked, but ill stick my oar in before that happens. Personally i think its ridiculous that the other immigrant thread was closed for 'immigrant bashing'. I didnt see any immigrant bashing, just people voicing an opinion, and last time i checked, that wasnt against any rule here, but anyway.
First off, i dont give a sh!t who calls me a racist or a bigot, or closed minded for this, but yeah, give it a few more years, and were gonna have a serious immigrant problem, and it needs to be dealt with now. When bulgaria joins the EU at the end of the year we'll have even more immigrants. And i dont know if people have actually noticed this but you know, Ireland isnt that big. Its already hard enough to find a job or an affordable place to live as it is. We need some kind of vetting system when it comes to immigrants like any other right thinking country. Can i just walk into America, or Canada, and live and work there permanantly? I bloody wish. You cant just keep letting any old f*cker in to set up home just cause theyre from europe, or were going to be up sh!t creek in 10 - 20 years time. Do a f*cking green card lottery and let a few hundred or so in every year, fine, but for christs sake were going to be swamped if we dont do something soon.

darkman2

lol never thought id hear ppl actually agree with KM on this forum.;) I agree with the last poster but thame the language man, the world aint commin to an end:)

Ruu_Old

No problem with discussion, its when people jump in with no shred of evidence or reasoning behind a post only that 'ders too much immigrants in dis country!', then the trolls follow. Lets see some more solutions and less big men talk. This post is going sensibly, carry on.

Flukey

Sgt. Politeness, the fact of the matter is that one of the reasons for the growth in the economy is the amount of new people coming in. Back in the 70s and 80s, no one was coming in and everyone was leaving. We had 20% unemployment then. The economy was bad and getting worse then. As to Ireland being not that big, we have a very low density of population here. Most of the country is in dire need of people coming in to regenerate their areas. The Bulgarians and Romanians may not be allowed in anyway, so that may not be (in your opinion) a problem.

The fact that there are so many people coming in is booming the economy. If it wasn't for new people we would not have thousands of new houses being built, providing a massive amount of employment and huge tax revenues for the government. The only thing we have to watch out for is not creating ghettos and not providing the services that are necessary.

The problem here as I've said, is that we are building thousands of houses, but no schools or other services to support them. If that is not done, then we will have problems. That was the mistake made in places like Ballymun and Tallaght and led to problems there. Services need to be supplied and then we will have a better situation. In having to provide those services, that will create even more jobs. More schools are needed, more teachers are needed etc. etc. More jobs are being created! That is good for the economy. Or, if you prefer, we can let eveyone leave and go back to 20% unemployment.

Wertz

Flukey wrote:

Casanova, many of those kids were born and bred here, so they are Irish. So should we exclude all the English, American, Australian, Canadian etc. kids, or kids of Irish parents that were born abroad? The schools are there for all the people. The preference should be for anyone that wants a place. That is the only criteria that matters. But we know all that, so lets not get into a debate about that aspect of it.

The real problem is that there are not enough school places for those that want them. That is the one and only issue. We need more schools. They are building thousands of houses but not providing the services to support them. That can't be blamed on the people who live there or where they came from. The answer is to provide the school places, so that everyone that wants one can go. Get on to the minister for education.

There's the best sense I've seen in the thread so far.
I'm not known for my liberalist views on immigrants, but the problem here is not solely down to unchecked immigration and is far more to blame on runaway development where builders/developers walk away with their arse pockets bulging with wads of cash and no thought is ever given to forward planning for amenities like schools, nor is any of the huge amount of stamp duty ever ploughed abck into the local community.

This isn't new, any idot could have seen this coming and the presecne of immigrants is merely exacerbating the problem.

How can any government justify dvelopers making billions but not have any form of legislation to require the inclusion of budgets for schools to be funded partially by those billions in profit?
Too late now.

ainemolloy1

Hello,

I didn't see the article and although I know K Myers has points to make on nearly everything he seems unable to communicate them without coming across like a bit of an ivory tower prat. Which is why he left the Times.

Anyhow immigration is a very serious issue in this country, it is not being addressed, because it is currently serving its purpose for the politicians, which is to make rich people richer. There are serious problems with Irish people being pushed out of jobs, and I know this for a fact, as I and many of my friends who compete for these lower end jobs can contest to first hand. But everybody is afraid to raise the issue because they get shot down as racist. And the only people with a voice in this country are the classes that the immigrants serve, cleaning their houses and pouring their pints for sod all money. And they can't see the problems because it doesn't affect them.

I'm friends with somebody ( a small businessman) who tells me flat out that he will not employ Irish people anymore, because (although he doesn't tell me this), reading in between the lines he can't exploit them!!

I know of a famous hotel in Dublin (no names) that is sacking nearly all the Irish employees in favour of Eastern Europeans. They can do this because they've been on temporary contracts for years. A member of staff told me this a couple of months back, and said that the union fella is getting backhanders to shut up. This is not the first time I've heard this of the union officials.

I've been on one building site where a respected Irish businessman employs 3 Romanians on an ongoing basis, I couldn't believe my eyes the 3 fellas were literally running around the site. I don't mean walking fast or working fast I mean RUNNING around apparently all day every day as they were illegals and were afraid the respected Mercedes driving git would sack them or report them!!

I also became friends with one Eastern European fella who originally came over here to work as hired muscle (you got to do what you can to survive I suppose)and is now working on sites. Talking with him you learn things and hear things that most Irish people don't. He told me Ireland has a fantastic reputation in eastern europe as a soft touch on immigration, (which is the opposite of what the politicins on the tv tell me). He also said (and he should know) that there are lots of immigrants that arrive here that are running away from something in their own countries. I know for a fact that there is extortion and protection rackets amongst these groups on a large scale. And the problem with Eastern European girls being shipped over here illegally as sex slaves, and I mean sex slaves, locked up, is really shameful. I'm talking 100s at least. This fella, who is Romanian himself told me to beware when Romania join the EU because there are a lot of desperate and violent people there, the kind of violence I can't imagine (his words!). I was watching the BBC the other day and they were saying that Ireland and the UK are the only countries to allow Romanians to immigrate freely to their respective countries, when Romania join the EU. Apparently the UK got cold feet and wanted to pull out of the immigration deal and now the Romanian government are threatening to sue!

I know some liberal southsider is gonna call me racist, but I don't deny anybody a living especially if they got the balls to go to another country in search of it, but this country is employing practically an open door policy. This does not work in a country that 10 years ago had very few immigrants and now has 1 in 10 at least. Apparently there are hundreds of homeless Polish men in Dublin already, according to the shelters. What are these men gonna do all day, sit in Busaras? No they are going to try to eat and put a roof over their head legally or not. We are not America , that country is based entirely on immigration since its founding and has very little in the way of social services. A lot of those people who clean the houses and pour the pints have good educations and maybe when their education is recognised in this country and the journalists and other professionals start looking insecure in their own jobs, the tide will turn and it will be okay to raise legitimate concerns.

But it aint now!

darkman2

Kevin Myers thought provoking article is pasted on the 1st page:)

Good post, I agree absolutely.

Some Labour party politician - De Rossa said a few years back, according to Myers, there would only be a 'trickle' of immigrants!!! Shows that the 'looney left' deserves its name.

Also I would say that most of us here would regard ourselves as tolerant ppl and we are but there are sections of Irish society that are getting very aggitated and this is where the real problems in future will begin.

ainemolloy1

I know but it took me ages to write the above (i'm a slow typer) and it wasn't there when I started.!:)

Flukey

AineMolloy, we have every one of those kinds of people you described amongst our own Irish people, and in saying that I am not saying that we don't need any more. Criminals, violent people, extortionists etc. etc. etc. are part of all societies, but still a minority. The vast majority of people coming in are good decent, hard-working, people, like the vast majority of Irish people are. We can get rid of everyone and go back to the 1970s and 1980s if you want, but that would not be good for the country. The only thing we have to do is make provisions for services for everyone. If there was not one single immigrant in the country and we had not the services to serve the people that were here, we'd have just as many problems. Get the services and supports in place and that will benefit everyone.

ainemolloy1

Hello Flukey

I agree with your post and I agree that this country needs immigrants to prosper and hopefully it will expand the cultural side of Irish life. The point I am making is that the open door system is not working and allowing practically anybody that fancies it into a country is a receipe for disaster. Especially in a country such as ours that has had very little expierence with large scale immigration until recently. The problems and exploitation which are being left unchecked are currently being disguised by the fact that the country as a whole is roaring ahead.

But this will not last forever, recession will come as it always does to all countries and those problems will reach the headlines, when it starts to affect those who currently enjoy the fruits of cheap labour.

It's true all countries have problems with crime and even if there was not one immigrant in Ireland we would still have a problem with extortion etc. It's not Eastern Europeans that are involved in the drive by shootings that seem to happen with alarming regularity. But life in Eastern Europe for many people is very difficult with no social net and violent crime is endemic. If the criminals who currently only operate amongst their own commmunities (with very little attention by the Gardai) start to branch out into daily Irish life which is very slowly starting to happen; I think joe public is in for a bit of a shock. I don't want to seem alarmist, but these are serious fellas, much more serious than Irish criminals, and I know this first hand. Now I don't want to make it sound like I think that there'll be bodies floating around in the canals every day, coz that makes me seem like a paranoid nutter, but people got to pull there heads out of the sand and start asking questions. I know lots of people who think there is no poverty in Ireland, just because it doesn't affect them or their friends. It's crazy!

Exit

darkman2 wrote:

Myers point was that no country in the world has ever successfully assimilated minority groups into society

I would argue that Canada is a country that has indeed done that. It's not perfect. There still exists some aspects of racism (not in your face racism) but all in all, people from all around the world, of all kinds of cultures live here in harmony with each other and their differences.

Personally, I don't have a problem with a person going to another country to gain a better life for themselves or their families. And if they feel that Ireland is that place (though God knows why) then fair ****s to them!

Flukey

We just need to manage the situation as opposed to strictly control it AineMolloy. There is a difference. We may not have much experience with immigration, but we can learn from those that have. If we can manage things properly that will help. A full open door policy is of course not realistic, but then it is not a reality either. There are restrictions there and the authorities are aware of the criminal problems. We have been subject to crime from external sources even when emigration was at its height. We may not have some of them yet, but we know all the potential problems, criminal and other types. Many of the problems that come with immigration are often begun not by the immigrants. The beginnings of the problem often lies within.

We have a lot of the problems already, like poverty, which as you said is very much a reality here. If we can manage things, and provide the services to look after everyone, we can at least reduce the potential problems. We have to look after the people who are in the country, no matter who they are. That is the responsibility of the goverment, and those of us with the commonsense to do so objectively, can help.

darkman2

Exit wrote:

And if they feel that Ireland is that place (though God knows why) then fair ****s to them!

LOL! According to the UK's 'Economist' magazine we are the best country in the world in which to live....................maybe they said that on purpose to screw us with too many immigrants!:D

Blisterman

Personally I think immigration is a good thing. PROVIDED, that the immigrants make an attempt to integrate.
The problem England has is, that many immigrants try and make England like their home countries. This is what breeds intolerance, and segregation.

If you want to live in somewhere like your home country, stay in your home country. It's a melting pot, not a salad.

ainemolloy1

Hello Flukey. Again I agree with your post and with your argument for a common sense approach to dealing with the issues that we face. Unfortuately the clowns who rule Leinster House are not dictated by common sense but by politics, never take a leadership role in any of the issues and act only as caretakers. They rather to bury the issues than to deal with them, for fear of ruffling a few feathers and dole out a few extra quid to the masses a few weeks before election time. I’m just trying to throw up the issues I see, because I’m not seeing it in the papers or on the telly.

Although there was a Primetime program on the sex trafficking industry here a few months ago. When the Justice Minister / Guards was asked about their opinions they said that it was a small localized issue, and suddenly posters highlighting the fact started appearing in different languages in the airport warning girls that if they were suspicious of where they were being taken to ring a phone number. The womans groups who daily deal with prostitution practically laughed at the ministers response and his lack of knowledge of the issue.

The program interviewed one girl who fled her captors and ran into the street in Ballsbridge to flag down a passing car. She had been locked up in an apartment for 7 days a week apparently making 10k each and every week for the gang. What did the guards do? They chucked her in Mountjoy for being an illegal. She was terrified that the people who held her captive would contact people in her own country and have her entire family killed for spilling the beans.

Peanut

Flukey wrote:

Sgt. Politeness, the fact of the matter is that one of the reasons for the growth in the economy is the amount of new people coming in. Back in the 70s and 80s, no one was coming in and everyone was leaving. We had 20% unemployment then. The economy was bad and getting worse then.

Hi, just a small nit-pick, but the economic recovery in this country started well before the increase in immigration.

nuttz

Blisterman wrote:

Personally I think immigration is a good thing. PROVIDED, that the immigrants make an attempt to integrate.

I agree.

With regard to education and the number of immigrant's children in schools:
the problem with this is that teachers end up spending more time with these children because English is not the spoken language at home, this results in the children with native parents losing out. Additional teachers need to be a priority in these schools, which in itself would probably cause other problems because the kids are being segregated from the other children.

Sgt. Sensible

Sgt. Politeness wrote:

And i dont know if people have actually noticed this but you know, Ireland isnt that big.

The Republic of Ireland is the same size as Belgium and Holland combined.

Population of the ROI - 4 million
Combinded population of Belgium and Holland - 26 million.

Myers is trolling. There is no "left/liberal" agenda. Ireland has the weakest most insignificant left in Europe. Irish people on the whole do not care about their rights as workers. They are afraid of negotiating with employers for better wages or conditions. They do not care that our schools and hospitals are embarrassments. They care about SSIAs, property prices, drink and drugs. And that's why they vote the way they do, if they vote at all.

Instead of looking in the mirror for once, it's much easier to blame brown people for all their woes.

il gatto

I have to say, I feel ainemolloy has raised some saliant issues. Although Ireland has many hardened criminals of her own, the fact of the matter is that the Gardai know most of them and they have records. What do the Gardai know of an immigrant criminals past or modus operandi. Nowt usually.
With regards to those statistics Sgt. Sensible. Holland and Belgium may be much more densely populated, but the point made was that in terms of ratio, Ireland is fast becoming massively imbalanced. Holland and Belgium are capable of absorbing immigrants due to their populations.
Another factor is that it's all happening much too fast. From a very, very low level, Irelands immigrant population has risen expidentially. The change has been too much in too short of time. Holland, France, Britain, Germany etc. had decades to adjust and assimilate. A luxury not being given to the Irish. Many people feel we should welcome all and not raise concerns outside of how best to accomodate our new neighbours.
I also feel that too much is made of thanking our immigrant population for our booming economy. A quick trawl through our recent past would show that the boom had started, after alot of hard work, before immigration had gone through the roof. No doubt, immigrants have helped continue the boom, but when it ends, and it will end, what then?
I like the multicultural aspect of immigration, and have made friends with many immigrants, but we have to realise that an indigenous population as small as Ireland can only handle so much. Britain, with a population of 60million people has 300'00 Poles living there. Ireland, with a population of 4million has 120,000. Do the maths

Pal

ainemolloy1 wrote:

The point I am making is that the open door system is not working and allowing practically anybody that fancies it into a country is a receipe for disaster.

Ireland does not have 'an open door system' nor do we allow in 'practically anybody'.

We may have shortcomings in immigration policy and legislation but what you are saying is just wrong.

fly_agaric

darkman2 wrote:

the left liberal agenda which makes it 'racist' to discuss any of the practicalities with immigration:rolleyes:

All the politicians of every stripe really love massive immigration either because a) they are true bleeding heart "left-liberals" who want to do their bit to heal the misery of humanity starting at home [well, so long as the healees don't actually, you know, end up living too close to them! Might lower the tone somewhat and put property prices down!] or b) they want to keep the workforce on its toes, curtail union power, and keep wages lower.
I suppose at least type b's favourite type of immigration (skilled workers) may help the economy, while type a's (poverty stricken asylum seekers from the really, really bad to live in parts of the world) probably doesn't.
So I'd say, no politicians really want to discuss those issues. Left-liberal or no.
They'd be mad to go around drawing attention to the downsides of something they think is just wonderful.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Jambo

I work in the Dublin west area and all the Fathers and Mothers who have their kids in schools in D15 or mostly concerned by the fact that teaching resourses are been stretched to breaking point by the sheer dedication and time needed by the teaching staffs to focus on the students who do not have english as their primary language.

Hence the National and Non national english speaking kids are missing out .. maybe when I comes to the junior cert time of these pupils we may see a drop off in so called record results.

bill_ashmount

Have to say, a fantastic article. These are serious issues which are going to come to a head in Europe and America in the next 50 years. People can deny it and say everything is rosy but when you look at countries like The Netherlands it's hard to see how that country will continue to exist in it's present form with the rapid changes that are happpening to it's ethnic and social mix.

Interesting times ahead.

gazzer

There was a guy on Newstalk the other day (think he was head of a teachers organisation) he was saying that any school that has non - nationals gets allocated up to 2 teachers if the school has up to 28 non national children. These teachers will primarilly deal with teaching the children English.

But then the guy went on to say that 2 teachers is the max they will get.. So it makes no difference if the school has 28 or 100 non national children.. they only get the benefit of 2 teachers. Apparantly some schools are turning away children if they have reached their quota of 28 while other schools are taking in a lot more than that. The teachers want Mary Hanifin to allocate more teachers to the schools that take in above the 28 child limit.

ainemolloy1

Pal wrote:

Ireland does not have 'an open door system' nor do we allow in 'practically anybody'.

We may have shortcomings in immigration policy and legislation but what you are saying is just wrong.

In relation to the above maybe what I say is wrong but it is what is being perceived in my community, amongst some of my friends communities, and amongst some migrant communities here. The official line spun by civil servants does not neccesarily reflect the reality.

I remember working on a site last summer and asking two different Polish delivery guys how many Poles they thought were in Ireland at the time, these two fellas told me separately that they thought there was about 100k Poles spread throughout the country. I remember switching on my TV a few weeks later and a politician was telling the interviewer that there was about 60k Poles in Ireland???

Fast forward to Spring of 2006 and there was a lady from some Polish organisation on the telly telling us there was 85k Poles here at the time.
This rang alarm bells with me at the time from what the other two fellas told me nearly a year previous.

I switched on my Sunday Morning radio a couple of weeks back and there was some esteemed panalist (economist, politician, someone like that) telling the nation that there is maybe 120k - 150k Poles here but that the true figures are unknown!

I also remember asking a Romanian fella on the site that summer, how many Romanians were here at the time, (don't get me wrong I don't go around asking immigrants how many of them are here all the time, it's just something to talk about); anyway he told me about 30k. I asked my Romanian friend about this (who incidentally had previously been deported from Ireland some years back, but found his way back in), he agreed and told me that the vast vast majority of these people are illegal, because it's very difficult for Romanians to get the permits. I know you may say that the fact that they can't get permits is proof that there is no open door policy, and maybe officially you're right, but unofficially?

I also remember there was an investigation by the Irish Times a few years back on the language schools operating in Dublin for (at the time anyhow) mainly Chinese students. One school consisted of two lecture rooms with maybe 40-50 desks in all. This particular school had something like 2000 students currently enrolled. Where did they all sit? This was only one of many these schools in Dublin taking the piss.

I know somebody more knowledgeable than me will pick holes in this, as my figures are not 100% accurate and this is all anecdotal anyway, but please don't tell me that the system is working when these are the things I hear and see.

punky

Some reasons why immigration is, by and large, a good thing for Ireland:

1. We need workers. Most Irish people are no longer willing to do menial work.
2. It's good for the gene pool. Anyone else noticed how many more good looking people there are in Ireland these days? Time to breed out past inbreeding.
3. It adds colour and life to the country. The most obvious examples are the rejuvenation of decaying inner city areas and the growing populations of country areas that were practically dead 20 years ago.
4. It's good for Irish people to come into contact with foreigners, to learn from them and become more informed and cosmopolitan.
5. In the case of asylum seekers, it's our duty as part of the EU and our moral duty as humans fortunate enough to live in a wealthy country.
6. In the case of EU migrant workers, it's our duty as part of the EU which has given Ireland so much over the years. And remember we all have the right to work in any EU country too. Why not go teach English in Poland for a while?

As for Myers' argument that some Muslim countries don't allow non-Muslim immigrants so we should do the same, should we really sink to their level?

Ireland's muslim population is still quite small and will remain so until the time that Turkey enters the EU. There is no real evidence that Muslims here have been radicalised and as long as we have a fair and just foreign policy there is no reason that we will ever be victims of Islamic terrorism.

Hobbes

Anyone see the news today about lack of school places? They were filming at a school in West Dublin and the vast majority of the students were black(btw im not racist, it was just an observation) I was stunned.

Having lived in a number countries which aren't as hermit like Ireland in regards to the rest of the world I can understand why you were shocked.

But the real point is, so what? So there are black school children in our schools? Whats the problem? Are we scared our children are going to get too much black if they stand too close to them or something?

As for Kevin Myers, its like a male version of Ann Coulter.

Karl Hungus

I'm all in favour of immigration. Why? Because I want to be an immigrant. Yep, my plans are to feck off to Japan and make a new life for myself there, maybe even a family.

In fairness, I don't see the situation in Ireland getting any better. Look what's happened in France, and then tell me what the hell are the Irish doing to prevent it? Mindless optimism!

So, you can keep your optimism, and hope that everything magically turns out for the better, because I'm jumping ship!

stovelid

Handy site http://www.bugmenot.com/ for when this happens....

julep wrote:

could someone copy and paste the article in question, please.
it's subscription and i can't remember my password and i'm too lazy to look for it. thanks.

scojones

When are you off Karl? And how the hell will you get Midleton out there?

Karl Hungus

sjones wrote:

When are you off Karl? And how the hell will you get Midleton out there?

No idea yet on either question.

Terry

there's a lot of hearsay and conjecture in this thread. please cut it out.
i don't want to delete any posts. i want to leave this thread as it is because i feel it is something very important re the future of this country.

stick to the facts. i don't want to see any more 'friend of a friend told me' stories.

darkman2

Hobbes wrote:

Having lived in a number countries which aren't as hermit like Ireland in regards to the rest of the world I can understand why you were shocked.

But the real point is, so what? So there are black school children in our schools? Whats the problem? Are we scared our children are going to get too much black if they stand too close to them or something?

As for Kevin Myers, its like a male version of Ann Coulter.

Ive already said its irrelevant what colour they are:)


One or Two posters brought up Canada. I dont like these comparisons because Canada is not off a continent that shares a landmass with Asia, Africa and Eastern Europe. We have to be more careful IMHO. We dont want ghetto's but the way were going this is inevitable. Take Parnell Street as what could possibly become our first ghetto. Cities all over the world have ghetto's, I agree but if we use a bit of sense we need not descend into the type of ghettoisation they have. Ireland is a small country and we have to be honest and say that we are struggling to cope. Immigrants have only started comming here since the economy started booming. Thats alright, no problem with that but we should not be so lenient on immigration policy. It has not worked on the continent, it most certainly wont work here. We should be learning from the obvious mistakes on the continent and in the UK but I feel we are not doing that. If we dont we are setting ourselves up for problems.

Terry

the last thing this country needs is ghettoes.
picture it. gang of scumbags walk into ghetto and start beating up the locals. ghetto scumbags retaliate and then we end up with a new version of the 'ra.

the thing about Ireland is, there is an underlying fear of foreigners coming here and taking over the place. you know, because of the whole british thing.
this is something that needs to be taken into account (and should have been by the government, but they're complete jackasses).

i think immigration should be slowed down for a while to allow those new to the country to assimilate to Ireland and our ways.


cead mile failte...99,999 failte...99,998 failte...


EDIT: someone made a comment about the irony of kevin myers (a brit) moaning about immigration in Ireland.
ever spoken to an english person?
the majority of english people i have spoken to are under the impression that Ireland is part of britan.
now a pedant might want to jump in here and say that we are, because Ireland is one of the british isles. technically it is, but only because the brits said so. i'll be pedantic and say that britan is a derivative of britannia, the roman name forengland and wales and that hibernia is the roman name for Ireland. therefore we are not part of the british isles.

Pal

julep wrote:

therefore we are not part of the british isles.

Yes we are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_isles