Carnage On Irish Roads. What Can Be Done?

HelterSkelter · 11-07-2006 12:20PM

tom dunne wrote:

Driver education is also a major factor.

Until the morons who risk life and limb in a car are stopped, the carnage will continue. I was driving between Kilcock and Clane the other day - a late teen/early 20 moron decides to overtake several cars in his souped up Micra. He barely missed a Merc turning onto the road 50 metres up. On the way back, another utterly idiotic artic driver overtakes 5, yes 5, cars and vans on the solitary straight stretch. Less than 5 seconds later, another artic comes in the opposite direction around a bend. The carnage could have been horrendous.

If people would report drivers like this to the Guards and follow it up if necessary it would be a good thing. I have heard stories of the Guards charging drivers like this on the basis of eyewitness statements.

If you see something like this call Trafficwatch: 1890 205 805

monkeyfudge · 11-07-2006 12:21PM

HelterSkelter wrote:

I think if you ask drivers of any age group you will get similar replies. Someone who thinks they are rubbish is a rare species!!

I think I over simplified the study a bit... a quick google found this, which I think is pretty much what I was talking about.

Young (18-25) and older (35-50) male drivers were compared in their perception of driving risk and confidence in driving ability. Both groups provided responses a questionnaire on accident risk and driving ability and further generated subjective ratings of risk to a series of videotaped sequences depicting various elements of driving behavior. Although young drivers' estimates of accident involvement in the next year were higher than those of older drivers, young drivers gave lower ratings of accident risk for specific driving situations which demanded fast driving reflexes or substantial vehicle-handling skills. Young drivers rated their own risk of an accident and driving abilities as being the same as for older drivers. However, they saw their peers as being significantly higher at risk and having poorer abilities than themselves. Young drivers were more confident in their driving abilities than the older drivers. Evidence is provided to suggest that perceived risk and self-perceived driving abilities are interrelated. Further, the data from young drivers showed two disturbing characteristics: first, a notable dissociation between perceived and actual ability and, second, a tendency to view themselves as immune from the effects of higher levels of risk, which they are prepared to ascribe to their peers but not to themselves.

BoozyBabe · 11-07-2006 12:23PM

b3t4 wrote:

Gimmick, where is it stated that the people who were involved in the recent accidents were learner drivers?

Thanks,
A.

Ah, don't be having a go at him.
He's just highlighting a VERY serious issue.

There are idiot young drivers out there on provisional licenses, there are idiot young drivers who've just got their full license who now think they're fully experienced, there are careless idiot drivers who are driving for a good while who forget they're actually driving & there are pure idiot old drivers who think cos they've been driving for SO long that they're 100% correct all the time, even when they won't dip, won't use indicators, pull out straight in front of you etc.

BUT you have to agree, whether or not they end up in an accident or not, there are a lot of young drivers who have never sat behind a wheel before, who simply get their 1st prov license, & off they go, out onto the roads on their own, when they barely know where the brakes are.

That's just wrong, & I think that's what the OP was getting at.

We all agree that something has to be done. It's a real joke in this country.

my little pony · 11-07-2006 12:23PM

Professional driving lessons should be compulsory.

Many people are thought by a family member/friend etc...
Alot of people only take lessons before the actual driving test and therefore all the bad habits etc have been learned and the attitude is that we only have to drive like this until the test is over...

Funsterdelux · 11-07-2006 12:28PM

HelterSkelter wrote:

Maybe if you live in a city, but what about the country, you need a car to visit your friends, go to the shop, etc etc

And what's wrong with that? Everyone should have the right to drive once they are trained properly

Im from the bog arse of nowhere, I understand your point, we got on well with push bikes and shanks mere, its what one is used to I suppose.

Well on the second point you made, everyone has the right to drive, they do, but I think it should come down to needs more than wants.

gimmick · 11-07-2006 12:28PM

Fact is, we are being taught how to pass the driving test, not how to drive.

eireal wrote:

So what about the 25yr old who gets his provisonal licence,and books his test straight away,gets a letter from work and then does the test a month later and passes.He's now free to drive any car he wants but yet has only about 2 months expierence driving on the road.

You are looking at the negative side of my suggestions rather than try and see the point I am trying to make.

youthacademy · 11-07-2006 12:35PM

i done hibernians "ignition" course. it could be argued that it is a bit of a money gimmick, but i genuinly found it helpful, it opens your eyes on how easy it is to have a serious/fatal accident through vidoes, examples etc.
and going on a point strongly aired here, its young male drivers are the main target. unlike the full license test, the ignition course must be renewed every 3yrs i tink..

themonk · 11-07-2006 12:37PM

HelterSkelter wrote:

One of the soundbite cop outs the Government feeds us and so many people just repeat like parrots without even thinking about it. It should be inappropiate speeds kills...or poor driver training kills...or bad roads kill....

no its not a copout .... u are more like to survive a crash if its at lower speed .... its statiscally imposible to avoid all crashes ... therefore any crash that occur should be with least fatality ... how SPEED KILLS ..... if a speed limiter was applied to every car or a noise to tell u were over the speed limit that irratated you .... im sure the carnage may still occur but less freqently and without as much fatalities

AdrianR · 11-07-2006 12:38PM

Carnage On Irish Roads. What Can Be Done?

How about enforcing the existing laws? That would do a lot to reduce the carnage. What has actually happened in the last year or two is that the lunatic driving has moved off the national roads and onto the primary roads, it isn't the roads that kill people it's the idiots who are speeding/racing on them. I have never seen a speed check point on a primary road unless it's in a 50 or 60Km zone, has anyone else?
I can imagine that Gardai resources are too tied up trying to keep public order during weekend nights to be speed checking and I reckon most of the dangerous idiots on the roads realise this.
The Gardai need to start a campaign of speed checks on primary roads as well as national roads and they need to be doing this during weekend nights, when they start catching the boy racers for speeding and dangerous driving then the carnage will be reduced.

Funsterdelux · 11-07-2006 12:40PM

themonk wrote:

no its not a copout .... u are more like to survive a crash if its at lower speed .... its statiscally imposible to avoid all crashes ... therefore any crash that occur should be with least fatality ... how SPEED KILLS ..... if a speed limiter was applied to every car or a noise to tell u were over the speed limit that irratated you .... im sure the carnage may still occur but less freqently and without as much fatalities

I hear that, cars are designed for 80+mph, our roads werent.

Tazz T · 11-07-2006 12:40PM

One of the biggest reasons there are more deaths on the roads is simply because there are more cars on the roads. The Celtic Tiger has meant more people can afford more, bigger, powerful cars.

In Ireland there's a culture that says there's something wrong with you if you don't drive. I found this surprising when returning to Dublin - people seemed amazed that someone in their 30s wasn't able to drive. My gf and I have had big fights about this and she wants me to learn.

When I lived in London, there was no need to drive - and few people seen any point. There was a more than adequate pubic transport system. So it's annoying when on TV3 this morning, they were saying it wasn't the governments fault, it was people driving badly - when that's only part of the problem. The simple fact it that the more people forced onto the roads by poor public transport will result in more accidents - and more pollution.

If you aren't in a car, you can't crash one.

Funsterdelux · 11-07-2006 12:42PM

Tazz T wrote:

One of the biggest reasons there are more deaths on the roads is simply because there are more cars on the roads. The Celtic Tiger has meant more people can afford more, bigger, powerful cars.

In Ireland there's a culture that says there's something wrong with you if you don't drive. I found this surprising when returning to Dublin - people seeemd amazed that someone in their 30s wasn't able to drive. My gf is always onto me to learn. Living in London, there was no need to drive, there was a more than adequate pubic transport system. So I was pretty annoyed when on TV3 this morning, they were saying it wasn't the governments fault, it was bad driving. The simple fact it that the more people forced onto the roads by poor public transport will result in more accidents - and more pollution.

If you aren't in a car, you can't crash one.

I have to agree with you too, what Ireland needs is a Ken Livingstone

FillSpectre · 11-07-2006 12:46PM

It is kind of funny the way people think eduction is the route forward. This would probably increase the number of people on the road. Would it not make more sense to restrict the number of people on the road? Every aspect or carcentric life is bad so why promote it further? Tax drivers by use and increase the tax rate if they speed. People are allowed freedom right now yet it is obvious theyare not acting responsibly

Funsterdelux · 11-07-2006 12:49PM

FillSpectre wrote:

It is kind of funny the way people think eduction is the route forward. This would probably increase the number of people on the road. Would it not make more sense to restrict the number of people on the road? Every aspect or carcentric life is bad so why promote it further? Tax drivers by use and increase the tax rate if they speed. People are allowed freedom right now yet it is obvious theyare not acting responsibly

I agree here also tax the bollox of them, roads are probably the most common publicly used areas, so they should be treated with more respect than they are at the moment, from both public and councils/gov.

Hobbes · 11-07-2006 12:49PM

Triangle wrote:

Weither or not learner Drivers are causing accidents is irrelevent - they have not learnt to drive and should not be driving alone - this is dangerous.

Bull****. How do you know this? Yes there are idiots on the road that don't know how to drive a car for the first time, but the majority of assholes on the road that have nearly killed me or someone else are all driving '06-'05 reg cars, or having been driving for some time.

At least the recent provisionals actually have to take an exam before they are even allowed behind the wheel of a car.

Provisionals are getting dumped on when they are not nearly part of the overall problem.

First up, quite a number of people on the road with full licenses never even sat a driving test. The government gave them an amnesty because so many were driving without a license.

Provisionals for what people are demanding you may as well sell your car if you are on a provisional, because there is no way you are going to get to use it.

Secondly provisional license holders are getting reamed in regards to insurance, and the waiting time of over a year on average for an exam insures they are crippled money wise.

If they want to lower the number of deaths.

1. Enforce all provisonal drivers to take a minimum of 10 lessons from a qualified driver instructor after passing thier theory test. Subsidise this from the government if you have to.

2. Clear the backlog. Screw the whining instructors thinking they will be hard done by, they fuking everything up for everyone. Fire them if you have to (seeing as they recently got money incentive earlier this year and still sitting on thier asses).

3. Once the backlog is clear and a driving test can be guaranteed within a month THEN ENFORCE PROVISIONAL LAWS. Take the provisionals off the streets.

4. GARDI ENFORCE ROAD RULES. In fairness now I have seen them a lot stopping people but they should be able to stop you for random breath checks, etc.

5. ZERO TOLERANCE on drink driving. The level should be lowered to a point where it is not possible to drink and drive. I don't mean 0, but a level that isn't likely to get you nabbed the following day if you are no longer drunk.

6. SLOW DOWN. Nearly all the muppets I have seen nearly killing someone have been speeding or been trying to get ahead (hard shoulder, overtaking on the left ON A ROUNDABOUT). Most of the roads have a set speed that allows you to maintain a constant speed. For example the N32. The speed limit there is 60kph, however most people just go as fast as possible (80-120) on it. Yet if you go at 60kph unless the person is using the bus lane on that road you will meet up with them at the traffic lights at then 19 times out of 20.

7. Report muppets. Use the traffic watch number if there is someone on the road that looks like they may crash.

8. Proper cameras on the motorways.

9. Have drivers retake the driving tests 5 or 10 years after the last test.

HelterSkelter · 11-07-2006 12:49PM

FillSpectre wrote:

It is kind of funny the way people think eduction is the route forward. This would probably increase the number of people on the road. Would it not make more sense to restrict the number of people on the road? Every aspect or carcentric life is bad so why promote it further? Tax drivers by use and increase the tax rate if they speed. People are allowed freedom right now yet it is obvious theyare not acting responsibly

I don't see how this would improve things. More people were killed in previous years when there were less people on the road.

Villain · 11-07-2006 12:50PM

Gay byrne after 100 days as Chairman of the National Road Safety Authority says "Nothing", that just about sums it up really, I bet he's sorry he took that position now, the government first ignored the majority of what Eddie Shaw wanted to do to make changes then appoints Gaybo as his replacment and people wonder why there is carnage on the roads, because the Gardai don't have the resources and what resources they do have are sitting in 50 zones or on motorways! But hey we elected them!

scojones · 11-07-2006 12:53PM

gimmick wrote:

Fact is, we are being taught how to pass the driving test, not how to drive.

Nail on the head there gimmick.

daveg · 11-07-2006 01:02PM

I've a couple of points. Firstly what about the group of motorists that were handed a full licence some years ago? You know the idiots on a good road doing 35 mph? With a 2 mile tailback behind them. This ignites road rage and encourages people to take risks. I know this is only a small part of the problem.

My thoughts on reducing deaths on our roads are as follows:

1/ Dissuade younger male drivers from driving at nighttime. Either by reducing the insurance premium for younger male drivers who do not drive after say 12am or increasing the premium. Preferably the first.

2/ Government should activate major spending on our roads. No more fecking excuses and no more throwing money away. With the amount of money this government have wasted our roads system could be 99% motorway systems.

3/ Major increase in Garda presence on the roads. Not shooting fish in a barrel but physical presence. We all saw how this worked when points were introduced.

4/ Revamp of the whole driving test system. Learner drivers can only drive with a qualified driver. Pre theory training. Re train all those 60 something feckin idiots on our roads driving dangerously.

Hobbes · 11-07-2006 01:06PM

In the UK even after you pass your test you are still required to wear R plates and not allowed on the motorway. They should do this here as well (if they get the backlog down).

That way while you passed the test everyone knows you still need some more experience on the road.

toomevara · 11-07-2006 01:08PM

The sad thing is that we all know the steps that need to be taken to stop this obscene horrorshow playing out on our roads every day. (and it is an obscenity, lets not mince words, lives, dreams, youthful potential shattered needlessly and forever in the twinkling of an eye) They've all been mentioned above, It really isn't rocket science,but, as with so much in Irish society ,the problem is that we lack the will politically or socially to sort it out...We must alter our attitudes and mindset toward driving cars in particular, and car culture in general,driving is NOT a right, its an awesome responsibility...cock it up and you or someone else dies or (and often worse) suffers an irrevocable life altering injury.....

The Irish people are a living refutation of the theory of Pavlov's dog. There cannot be a person or family left in this land not negatively impacted by these horrendous crashes (please dont call them accidents beacuse the vast amajority are far from accidental) yet we still come back for more, again and again, time after time....and it goes on....until we have rigorous law enforcement,the removal of provisional drivers from the road, a decent driving test, sane limits on the types of cars young drivers can have, zero tolerance for alcohol and drug abuse behind the wheel, a clampdown on mobile phone use with draconian penalties for infringing the above imposed mercilessly, more innocent people will die or suffer horrible maiming on our roads..just pray that next time it isnt you or someone you love because at the moment getting behind a wheel in Ireland is like taking a punt on a roulette wheel.....and laughably prayer seems to be the only road safety policy we've got worth pursuing

layke · 11-07-2006 01:15PM

Why on earth was Gaybo ever given that job. What experience does he have?

I'll tell you. NONE!

I see him as a celeb spin doctor who can divert the real blame away from the gov. hence the appointment.

“Apart from asking people again and again and again to slow down and to be careful about drink-driving, I don’t know what else we can do.

“We have done all the horror ads, we have tried to get to them on television and radio, but there are obviously a great number of people who don’t look at television, don’t listen to radio, don’t read newspapers and don’t get the message,” he said.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/07/11/story267255.html

What does that tell you, where's the mention of the poor road conditions?

cornbb · 11-07-2006 01:15PM

I think we need absolute zero tolerance on dodgy driving. The roads are pretty lawless by international standards. A large traffic corps of Gardai shoud clamp down on EVERYTHING - people who don't indicate, speeders, dangerous overtakers, illegally modified cars (these have the potential to be very dangerous). Basically, anyone who doesn't follow the rules of the road to the letter should be disqualified from driving. The penalty points system could be a great deterrent, if it were enforced properly. Better quality roads would also be very helpful, but changing drivers' attitudes is far more important IMO.

JaysusMacfeck · 11-07-2006 01:26PM

How many of these road deaths were caused by provisional drivers? None.

layke · 11-07-2006 01:32PM

cornbb wrote:

illegally modified cars (these have the potential to be very dangerous).

Can you please provide me with evidence car mods cause accidents? Legal or illegal, either will do, ta.

FillSpectre · 11-07-2006 01:35PM

layke wrote:

Why on earth was Gaybo ever given that job. What experience does he have?

I'll tell you. NONE!

Isn't he a big motor bike user, cyclist and wildly popular country wide? As the job is not really a job about experience but that of a spokesman sounds like he is overly qualified

b3t4 · 11-07-2006 01:43PM

gimmick wrote:

So rather than being constructive you are picking holes? If you are happy with the current system, well and good. If you actually read my posts above, you will see my points.

Did you actually get my point at all?? I'll spell it out.

I'm sick to sh-it of everyone going after learner drivers. There are SOOO many issues around this whole area and it seems if we fix just one part of this whole nightmare then everything will be fine, like seriously.

I am a learner driver. I passed the theory test. I got 10 lessons from a driving instructor. I don't ever drive on my own.

I believe this thread has been started out as an effort to find a scapegoat, a person or group or organisation, that someone can point their finger at this is not going to help things.

I agree with everything Hobbes has said.

A.

ambro25 · 11-07-2006 01:43PM

Funsterdelux wrote:

I agree here also tax the bollox of them

By perceived European standards (perceived by me from owning and driving cars in 5 EU countries in the last 17 years), we're already there, I'm afraid (though obviously still not enough).

FillSpectre wrote:

Tax drivers by use and increase the tax rate if they speed.

Notwithstanding the fact that it conforms totally to what I have been told by Irish friends is the 'Irish stereotype' ("Can't solve the problem? Tax it!"), I actually do like this very, very much. And I believe that it would actually work better than most other recommendations. (a win-win for everyone: less speeding, more revenue).

Agree whole-heartedly with previous recommendations :

(1) no solo driving pre-full license under any circumstances, compulsory training with registered driving school (see below)
(2) 'zoning' of "drivers in formative year(s)" through any combination of statutory cc restriction, insurance incentives and compulsory markings (e.g. the 'R' in UK or the '90' (kph limit) in FRA, for 12 months after passing full license)
(3) strict enforcement of RoR
(4) ditch Road Tax / VRT, have single tax-by-use (petrol levy) and/or yearly NCT in which mileage recording compulsory
(5) ditch points, have a table of cumulative tax rates applied for any speeding (and other RoR offenses) conviction
(6) re-qualification at periodical intervals (5/10 years)
(7) National Register of driving school and tutors, with respective license (business and tutor), compulsory for setting up and running driving school (licenses inspectable and revokable)
(8) RoR tuition included in yearly school/college cursus

that'll do for now, more as I think of them.

FillSpectre · 11-07-2006 01:45PM

layke wrote:

Can you please provide me with evidence car mods cause accidents? Legal or illegal, either will do, ta.

There doesn't seem to be an evidence mentioned here about any causes

There are three cars in my areas that are modified. The cars have higher powered engines than original design and I very doubt they are paying the correct insurance as is a commonly know trick. They also drive around the area like dangerous fools.

Their may be responsible modders but generally they are not safe drivers and anybody who wants to apear like fools who are thought to be dangerous and drive baddly can expect to be treated as they appear.

cornbb · 11-07-2006 01:47PM

layke wrote:

Can you please provide me with evidence car mods cause accidents? Legal or illegal, either will do, ta.

Example: a spoiler fitted to a car which was not designed to have one will push the rear end of the car down when driving at speed, thereby reducing the effectiveness of the front brakes. The front brakes are far more important, which is why they are usually disc brakes as opposed to drum brakes.

Carnage On Irish Roads. What Can Be Done?

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