What makes a good, holy and true Christian?

Lunoma · 21-06-2006 11:16PM #1

The question is simply "What makes a good, holy and true Christian?"

Is it focusing on the teachings of Jesus? Love your enemy, the Golden Rule, believe in G-d, shows forgiveness, compassion, help others in need, etc. which to me is not only a really good and nice Christian but a really good and nice human being and soul.

Would those freaky Christian FundaMENTALists in America and elsewhere qualify as true Chrsitians? They certainly don't portray Jesus' teachings, they might believe in G-d and Christ, but what good is it when they are so full of hatred and bitterness. They discriminate against gays, different races, atheists, other religions (their favourite being Muslims, Jews and Catholics). Jesus wouldn't do that. He would show compassion towards others, help them and love everyone. Remember, he showed compassion to the Roman soldiers who brutally beat him, insulted and oppressed him who weren't Jews either. What the fanatics do is not "treating others the way you would like to be treated".

Do you, as a Christian, consider yourself to be a true Christian? And what makes a true Christian in your view?

22-06-2006 04:53PM

Lunoma wrote:

Would those freaky Christian FundaMENTALists in America and elsewhere qualify as true Chrsitians? They certainly don't portray Jesus' teachings, they might believe in G-d and Christ, but what good is it when they are so full of hatred and bitterness. They discriminate against gays, different races, atheists, other religions (their favourite being Muslims, Jews and Catholics).

Well that's the Bible's teaching. Word of God so to speak.

Lunoma · 22-06-2006 05:42PM

Yes but the Bible also states very clearly in its Golden Rule "Treat others as you yourself would like to be treated", doesn't it? Also, the Bible doesn't say to discriminate, it just says sodomy is sinful. The Bible also attacks Pagans and secularists, so should all Christians go out and attack these people.

What is more important? Following the ten commandments, Jesus' teachings and the Golden Rule or majoring on some insignificant line in the middle of the Old Testament and brushing aside every teaching Jesus taught on Sermon on the Mount?

Christianity and Judaism for that matter are more than just religions, what one believes in. They also lay out how one should act and treat others. What often happens among Christians and Jews is that they get caught up in some statement in the scriptures and forget all about the importance of the commandments of Moses.

Here's an example: "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it. For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever." Micah 4:3-5, Hebrew Scriptures.. Funny enough? Many of my fellow Jews have obviously turned a blind eye to such a delightful and remarkable passage. Does the Israel-Palestinian conflict ring a bell?

Now, any Christians out there, please tell me, in your opinion, what makes a good, holy and true Christian? It isn't that hard of a question, is it?

BrianCalgary · 22-06-2006 07:19PM

Lunoma wrote:

Yes but the Bible also states very clearly in its Golden Rule "Treat others as you yourself would like to be treated", doesn't it? ?

Nowhere does the Bible say this.

Lunoma wrote:

Now, any Christians out there, please tell me, in your opinion, what makes a good, holy and true Christian? It isn't that hard of a question, is it?

One who allows themselves to be transformed into the image of Christ by the Holy Spirit. None of us are holy, nor can we be as the transforming is a lifelong process culminating in Heaven, where we will be in perfect relationship with Christ.

Fundamenatlists are in a position where they would have a society of people with the desire of relationship with Christ. They devise rules that would follow the moral teachings of the Bible. Whereas man would have a society that allows people to do as they please, with complete relative morality.

GoldieBear · 22-06-2006 07:50PM

I think its just simply living unobtrusively, helping others, showing compassion and being as honest as possible in your dealings with people and not intentionally setting out to hurt or betray others.

BrianCalgary · 22-06-2006 08:35PM

GoldieBear wrote:

I think its just simply living unobtrusively, helping others, showing compassion and being as honest as possible in your dealings with people and not intentionally setting out to hurt or betray others.

That is a part of the Christian life. Anyone of any belief system can do it. Being a Christian means accepting Christ as your saviour and putting your trust in Him.

hairyheretic · 22-06-2006 08:48PM

BrianCalgary wrote:

Fundamenatlists are in a position where they would have a society of people with the desire of relationship with Christ.

Regardless of whether the rest of the people wanted it or not. Regardless of whether the rest of the people believed as they did or not.

BrianCalgary wrote:

They devise rules that would follow the moral teachings of the Bible.

No matter how many people are discriminated against or harmed by those rules.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Whereas man would have a society that allows people to do as they please, with complete relative morality.

Morality can only be relative.

Every single person in this world has their own definition of whats constitutes moral or immoral behaviour. Some of these points many, if not all, people will agree on. Some points they will not.

Who are you to say that your decision as to what is moral or immoral is any more valid than mine, or anyone elses?

BrianCalgary · 22-06-2006 09:32PM

hairyheretic wrote:

Who are you to say that your decision as to what is moral or immoral is any more valid than mine, or anyone elses?

Because the morality is given by the creator of all of us, you included whether or not you choose to believe it you will meet Him. Just like an electronic machine, if we follow the creators instructions the machine will work fine, if you choose to try and operate it otside of its intended uses it will break.

BrianCalgary · 22-06-2006 09:33PM

hairyheretic wrote:

Regardless of whether the rest of the people wanted it or not. Regardless of whether the rest of the people believed as they did or not.

No matter how many people are discriminated against or harmed by those rules.
?

Who's rules should we use then? Yours?

hairyheretic · 22-06-2006 10:54PM

BrianCalgary wrote:

Because the morality is given by the creator of all of us, you included whether or not you choose to believe it you will meet Him.

That is your belief. Others have different ones.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Who's rules should we use then? Yours?

I never said mine were any better than anyone elses. I do have my own rules for how to live, yes, but I'm the only one I apply them to. I do not try to make anyone else live by the things I consider right or wrong.

A society should not pass laws that discriminate against a particular segment of it, or that favour one segment over another / all others.

BrianCalgary · 22-06-2006 11:02PM

hairyheretic wrote:

A society should not pass laws that discriminate against a particular segment of it, or that favour one segment over another / all others.

OI agree. But would you pass a law that discrimanates against paedophiles? or drugpushers?

hairyheretic · 22-06-2006 11:09PM

Those are recognised criminal activities though. They could be committed by anyone, so not exactly representative of a distinct segment of society.

BrianCalgary · 23-06-2006 04:32PM

hairyheretic wrote:

Those are recognised criminal activities though. They could be committed by anyone, so not exactly representative of a distinct segment of society.

So was homosexuality and abortions, which are now legal. A homosexual would claim that they are made that way and therefore can not be discriminated against. the Paedophile would also make the same claim. So if you where in charge would you allow laws that make paedophilia a crime?

Drugpushers are doing nothing but providing services, they would argue, to a group of people that need the drug.

Lunoma · 23-06-2006 08:52PM

BrianCalgary wrote:

Nowhere does the Bible say this.

Well I don't know what Bible you're reading, but if you've never heard of the Golden Rule, well I'm rather concerned for your own Christianity. Try: "The second most important commandment is like it: 'Love your neighbour as you love yourself' Matthew 22:39. Similiar to what I quoted from the Talmud which is an interpretation of the Old Testemant.

So was homosexuality and abortions, which are now legal. A homosexual would claim that they are made that way and therefore can not be discriminated against. the Paedophile would also make the same claim. So if you where in charge would you allow laws that make paedophilia a crime?

Drugpushers are doing nothing but providing services, they would argue, to a group of people that need the drug.

And tell me, how homosexuality is hurting anyone? Paedophilia is raping young kids against their will. Abortion has certain circumstances attached to it and many people don't completely agree with it including myself. The ONLY reason you have an issue with homosexuality is because the Bible condemns homosexual ACTS. If Jesus had met a homosexual and told him/her to go and love his partner like a heterosexual does, would you still carry such prejudice? I think not. But Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. Also, the Bible doesn't say to discriminate against homosexuals. Why don't I just discriminate against Christians like yourself and see how you would like it? I don't think you would. You have no idea what it's like to be homosexual so you're really doesn't understand.

Also, illegal drugs harm people. They are illegal because the law has the responsibility to protect its citizens. Likewise for making paedophilia a crime. Illegalising homosexuality is stopping people from naturally loving others of the same gender, so the crime is?

GoldieBear · 23-06-2006 09:10PM

BrianCalgary wrote:

That is a part of the Christian life. Anyone of any belief system can do it. Being a Christian means accepting Christ as your saviour and putting your trust in Him.

If you dont trust in Christ as our saviour then life would be very meaningless. The one thing He gives us is hope, if we dont have that we have nothing.

BrianCalgary · 23-06-2006 09:42PM

GoldieBear wrote:

If you dont trust in Christ as our saviour then life would be very meaningless. The one thing He gives us is hope, if we dont have that we have nothing.

And they all replied "AMEN"

Mrs. MacGyver · 23-06-2006 09:51PM

I think that some people are 'Sunday' Christians. They listen to whatever the sermon is of a sunday, they fell good and for all intents and purposes intend to act in a Christian manner. However people do not put Christian values into practice no mattere how good their initial intentions and they are put to the back of the cupbord only to resurface the following week.

BrianCalgary · 23-06-2006 09:57PM

Mrs. MacGyver wrote:

I think that some people are 'Sunday' Christians. They listen to whatever the sermon is of a sunday, they fell good and for all intents and purposes intend to act in a Christian manner. However people do not put Christian values into practice no mattere how good their initial intentions and they are put to the back of the cupbord only to resurface the following week.

Welcome to the boards Mrs. M. I see your comment happen all too often. Gives us all a bad name I fear.

hairyheretic · 23-06-2006 10:11PM

BrianCalgary wrote:

So was homosexuality and abortions, which are now legal.

And the bible seems quite ok with selling your daughters into slavery. That idea seem to have changed over the years too.

BrianCalgary wrote:

A homosexual would claim that they are made that way and therefore can not be discriminated against. the Paedophile would also make the same claim. So if you where in charge would you allow laws that make paedophilia a crime?

Yes I would. Paedophila is destructive to the child. Homosexual relations are no worse than heterosexual ones.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Drugpushers are doing nothing but providing services, they would argue, to a group of people that need the drug.

No one needs recreational drugs (not the first time at least). However, we do have them. Alcohol for example. There are arguements for the legalisation of other drugs, that by removing the illegality, they could be better regulated and controlled. For now though, most drugs are considered illegal and are treated as such.

Now let me ask you one. Have a little read of this article

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1206813,00.html

and tell me how christian morality can comdemn to death 4000 women a year who need not die if they received this vaccine, because they think that it might somehow encourage girls to have sex.

The New Scientist in Britain quoted the Family Research Council's Bridget Maher warning that "giving the HPV vaccine to young women could be potentially harmful, because they may see it as a licence to engage in premarital sex."

BrianCalgary · 23-06-2006 10:26PM

hairyheretic wrote:

And the bible seems quite ok with selling your daughters into slavery. That idea seem to have changed over the years too..

Where does thi shappen?

hairyheretic wrote:

Yes I would. Paedophila is destructive to the child. Homosexual relations are no worse than heterosexual ones...

Homosexuality is very destructive. A worker at a hospital her in Calgary notes that homosexuals won't live that far past their 40's because of thei rlifestyle. So you would discriminate aginst peadophiles? The NAMBLA organisation in the US claims that it is quite healthy?

hairyheretic wrote:

Now let me ask you one. Have a little read of this article

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1206813,00.html

and tell me how christian morality can comdemn to death 4000 women a year who need not die if they received this vaccine, because they think that it might somehow encourage girls to have sex.

The conservative response (not Christian response) is that the drug shouldn't be marketed with the idea that it will prevent cervical cancer so go have safe sex. If it is marketed as a prevention for cervical cancer then OK. We saw it happen with condoms, they prevent STD's say the manufacturers and pregnancies. I know a few condom hole kids and STD's still spread.

Th epoint being here hairy is that you spill on Christians for being intolerant and discriminatory yet if you rwere boss and making th elaws you biases and sicriminations would come into it as well. You would draw the line at paedophelia. Where else would you draw lines? and where is your authority derived to make that line?

Lunoma · 23-06-2006 10:54PM

Well, a certain amount of humanity and morality is featured in each of the major world religions. One deosn't need to be ag enius to work out what is right and wrong unless they have been terribly brainwashed from a child into believing killing, discriminating and oppressing people is good.

Christians had a responsibility to follow the footsteps of Jesus. And that doesn't just include prayer, it also includes of paramount importance, one's actions, views and treatment of others. It is very hard unless one is totally blind to see how Jesus, himself, acted and treated other people. That is made very clear in the Bible.

So what's the answer? Be nice. Two words. That's all. Just be nice. Do not discriminate unless it is positive discrimination. Treat others in a manner which you would like to be treated. If you fail to do this, doesn't expect to be treated nice back. Be religious if you want but don't be too religious which may lead to a bitter fundamentalism. And above all, believe in a loving G-d, not one who you use as a means to hurt other people. Christianity can be a beautiful religion so can Judaism. Show the true beauty of Christianity, not the corruption, not the hate. Good luck to everyone on a spiritual journey!

Remember each religion is like a different route which leads to the same destination.

hairyheretic · 23-06-2006 11:02PM

BrianCalgary wrote:

Where does thi shappen?

Exodus 21:7

"If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do."

BrianCalgary wrote:

Homosexuality is very destructive. A worker at a hospital her in Calgary notes that homosexuals won't live that far past their 40's because of their lifestyle.

Personal conjecture. Are there any studies to show any kind of evidence for this?

What exactly is their "lifestyle" that it causes such harm?

If a heterosexual indulges in similar behavior, what is their life expectancy?

BrianCalgary wrote:

So you would discriminate aginst peadophiles? The NAMBLA organisation in the US claims that it is quite healthy?

I've heard of them, but can't say I've read anything about their claims. Claims aren't proof though.

BrianCalgary wrote:

The conservative response (not Christian response) is that the drug shouldn't be marketed with the idea that it will prevent cervical cancer so go have safe sex. If it is marketed as a prevention for cervical cancer then OK. We saw it happen with condoms, they prevent STD's say the manufacturers and pregnancies. I know a few condom hole kids and STD's still spread.

No product is ever 100%. If it were we wouldn't have car accidents or plane crashes (due to mechanical faults). Its not perfect, but its better than not having it.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Th epoint being here hairy is that you spill on Christians for being intolerant and discriminatory yet if you rwere boss and making th elaws you biases and sicriminations would come into it as well.

I will argue against anyone who is intolerent or discriminatory, regardless of what they use to try and justify that bigotry. Would it surprise you to learn that less than a year ago I was defending christianity against the bigoted rantings of another heathen? I would do the same thing again, because I believed that he was wrong.

BrianCalgary wrote:

You would draw the line at paedophelia. Where else would you draw lines? and where is your authority derived to make that line?

I suppose I draw the lines where there is harm. I don't see the harm in people having sex outside of marriage, or homosexuality, or probably in a variety of other things that you would see as being sinful.

I'm asatruar, and would describe myself specifically as a Tyr's-man. The following quote is from an article on Tyrian spirituality.

In basic terms, Tyrian Spirituality involves always trying to do what is right, what is fair, what is just, and what is honest, with special stress on service to, and protection of the community, both the Ásatrú community and the general community in which one lives.

Maybe that will help explain matters.

Or maybe not

BrianCalgary · 23-06-2006 11:12PM

hairyheretic wrote:

Personal conjecture. Are there any studies to show any kind of evidence for this?

What exactly is their "lifestyle" that it causes such harm?

If a heterosexual indulges in similar behavior, what is their life expectancy?

Promiscuous sex which leads to disease both being received and given.

hairyheretic wrote:

I've heard of them, but can't say I've read anything about their claims. Claims aren't proof though

Claims aren't proof, but from someone who works with the STD transmittal section of a hospital in a major city, I'd tend to respect her advice. She isn't a Christian either.

hairyheretic wrote:

No product is ever 100%. If it were we wouldn't have car accidents or plane crashes (due to mechanical faults). Its not perfect, but its better than not having it.

But the industry advertises thatthe product does prevent the spread of disease and preganancy.

hairyheretic wrote:

I will argue against anyone who is intolerent or discriminatory, regardless of what they use to try and justify that bigotry. Would it surprise you to learn that less than a year ago I was defending christianity against the bigoted rantings of another heathen? I would do the same thing again, because I believed that he was wrong.

hairyheretic wrote:

I suppose I draw the lines where there is harm. I don't see the harm in people having sex outside of marriage, or homosexuality, or probably in a variety of other things that you would see as being sinful.

I'm asatruar, and would describe myself specifically as a Tyr's-man. The following quote is from an article on Tyrian spirituality.

I have seen the harm that sex outside marriage causes. I have seen the harm that homosexuality causes. It exists. The broken homes and devvastated children.

hairyheretic wrote:

In basic terms, Tyrian Spirituality involves always trying to do what is right, what is fair, what is just, and what is honest, with special stress on service to, and protection of the community, both the Ásatrú community and the general community in which one lives.

That sounds great, but what is right, honest and fair. Define those. What determines them?

I'll be gone for the weekend. See you Monday.:)

JC 2K3 · 23-06-2006 11:27PM

BrainCalgary, you can't honestly say that homosexuals necessarily engage in promiscious sexual activity any more than hetrosexual people, and I don't want a statistic showing that they do. Be against promiscious sex if you want, but don't be against homosexuality.

I mean the Bible advocates slavery(Eph 6:5), circumcision(Exod 12:48) and the killing of anyone who violates the law of God(various passages) and condemns such actions as eating shellfish(Lev 11:9-10), women wearing jewellery(1 Peter 3:3), bigomy(1 Kings 11:3) etc.

Surely you can't single out Homosexuality being wrong and say you believe in it due to the bible saying so, yet not believing in any of the above bible passages.

Scofflaw · 24-06-2006 12:33AM

BrianCalgary wrote:

Promiscuous sex which leads to disease both being received and given.

As does spitting in public, not washing your hands, sneezing, etc etc. No-one is suggesting these are sins - get a better reason.

BrianCalgary wrote:

I have seen the harm that sex outside marriage causes. I have seen the harm that homosexuality causes. It exists. The broken homes and devvastated children.

And I have seen the harm that pig-headed stupidity, and irreconcilable differences cause - the broken homes and the devastated children. Agin, neither of these are sins (although one should be) - again, get a better reason.

You seem to be blaming homosexuality for marriage breakdowns...how would that work? The only way I can see is if one partner in a marriage is actually homosexual - if people do not feel forced to live as heterosexuals when they are not, this isn't a problem.

regards,
Scofflaw

hairyheretic · 24-06-2006 01:33AM

BrianCalgary wrote:

Promiscuous sex which leads to disease both being received and given.

Equally possible for heterosexuals.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Claims aren't proof, but from someone who works with the STD transmittal section of a hospital in a major city, I'd tend to respect her advice. She isn't a Christian either.

Well, you never mentioned where she worked the first time there. I've no experience with much things medical, but I expect some googling would show comparative rates of STDs between heterosexuals and homosexuals.

BrianCalgary wrote:

But the industry advertises thatthe product does prevent the spread of disease and preganancy.

And so it does. What would disease and pregnancy levels be without them? They may not be 100%, but they are better than nothing.

BrianCalgary wrote:

I have seen the harm that sex outside marriage causes. I have seen the harm that homosexuality causes. It exists. The broken homes and devvastated children.

Any and all of those could equally be leveled against heterosexuals.

BrianCalgary wrote:

That sounds great, but what is right, honest and fair. Define those. What determines them?

I do of course. Isn't it obvious?

Joking aside, the only person who can define right and fair for you is yourself. You know what you consider right or wrong, fair or unfair. How you form the judgements that you make is probably down to a number of factors.

BrianCalgary wrote:

I'll be gone for the weekend. See you Monday.:)

Have a good one.

Mrs. MacGyver · 24-06-2006 09:45AM

BrianCalgary wrote:

Welcome to the boards Mrs. M. I see your comment happen all too often. Gives us all a bad name I fear.

Thanks, it is quite a pity though that this happens. But not all Christians fal into this category (having said this).

Mrs. MacGyver · 24-06-2006 09:48AM

Dosen't the formation of conscience provide a person with a natural balance between right and wrong, but having said that christianity provides us with directions as how to exercise good judgement?

I also found the following quote on-line: www.askapastor.org/conscience.html

"The Bible teaches that God has placed basic principles of His Law in every person's conscience (Romans 2:14,15. This operates whether or not the person ever reads the Bible or even has been told anything about God.

However, by the constant ignoring of that conscience, the internal voice can be dulled to the point that when evil is done the conscience responds very little or not at all. A conscience in this condition is referred to as a "seared conscience" in I Timothy 4:2."

Lunoma · 25-06-2006 12:14AM

To be quite honest, Brian you're talking a load of absolute crap!!! And no I'm not attacking you or anything but I'm being very truthful. You clearly can't support a single statement you make which is down to pretending to sound convincing but not really very convincing. Sorry love!

Lets give you a nice scenario. What would you do if one of your daughters admitted that she was lesbian? Would you be supportive and love her unconditionally like a father should do for his child? Or would you start rambling off silly Bible verses, telling her that she's going to go to hell and send her off to one of those freaky and useless "De-homosexualising camps" in America? Hmmm......What would be the Christian thing to do. Geesh, the choice is soooo tough. :rolleyes:

Also, I have a very good gay friend who is now around 80 years old who is in the best of health. So what was that about gay people not living very long?

Matthew 5:11:"Happy are you when people insult you and persecuate you and tell all kinds of lies of evil against you because you are my followers." Brilliant passage, read it!!!

Em, Brian I'm not even Christian and I am obviously more in tune with what the New Testament says. First, you claim that the Bible doesn't contain the Golden Rule

. And then you didn't even know it permits slavery (which is wrong!!! :mad:) So maybe you might do a bit more reading to avoid future embarassment?

So good look on your weekend break.

lostexpectation · 25-06-2006 09:08PM

in this day and age living simply is what a good christian should do, its about how you live not how you worship

BrianCalgary · 26-06-2006 04:02PM

JC 2K3 wrote:

BrainCalgary, you can't honestly say that homosexuals necessarily engage in promiscious sexual activity any more than hetrosexual people, and I don't want a statistic showing that they do. Be against promiscious sex if you want, but don't be against homosexuality..

I am against all promiscouity. It is all sex outside of marriage which is fornication which means you don't inherit the kingdom of Heaven.

What makes a good, holy and true Christian?

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