Germans bombing of Dublin in WWII

Mr.Nice Guy · 03-06-2006 08:12AM

I remember being told about this in school.

I think it's certainly a plausible theory that the Germans intentionally attacked Ireland to send de Valera a message. I don't think we'll ever fully know though.

Wibbs · 03-06-2006 10:27AM

el tel wrote:

Ireland's neutrality then, like now, is a joke.
British POWs captured in Ireland who should have been detained
for the remainder of the hostilities were eventually brought up to
the border and released.

It was the usual Dev balancing act. If it was considered you were on a training flight then you would be returned. If however you were on an operational mission you would be interred. Strangely enough the lads from the UK were always on "training" flights.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I think it's certainly a plausible theory that the Germans intentionally attacked Ireland to send de Valera a message. I don't think we'll ever fully know though.

Unlikely. It would be far more likely that the British would have bombed us to get us into the war. Our atlantic ports were very strategic. The Germans were happier we were out of it. They did have a plan to invade for our strategic value(operation Grun, I kid you not), but it was put on hold after operation sealion/battle of britain went pear shaped.

Hagar · 03-06-2006 10:44AM

Everybody had plans to invade Ireland and they still do. We occupy a strategic location of far greater value than our ability to defend it. Even today when planes can fly non-stop fron the US to any part of Europe the Yanks still use Shannon as a staging post for a lot of their flights.

TempestSabre · 03-06-2006 10:50AM

Navigation during WWII wasn't all that great. It was very common to bomb the wrong location. Theres loads of examples you could pick. Its well documented.

Terry · 03-06-2006 12:01PM

Badly Drunk Boy wrote:

I live near The Curragh. A lot of soldiers were interned there during the Second World War. The German soldiers worked on the bog, cutting and footing turf (energy resources). And a significant proportion were happy to stay in Ireland when the war was over.

I know two lads from Kilcullen in Kildare, whose grandfathers were Germanic...

indeed. there are some dutch farmers close by and their father flew in the luftwaffe and was interned in the curragh. very aryan loking kids too

dathi1 · 03-06-2006 12:18PM

http://www.liveireland.com/features.shtml
the top prog does a good job on it

Degsy · 03-06-2006 02:59PM

Hagar wrote:

Everybody had plans to invade Ireland and they still do. We occupy a strategic location of far greater value than our ability to defend it. Even today when planes can fly non-stop fron the US to any part of Europe the Yanks still use Shannon as a staging post for a lot of their flights.

Dont be absurd.Our army and airforce wiould make mincemeat out of any invader foolish enough to take us on.Our bi-plane s would sweep thier fighters from the sky and our mighty FCA would cast the attackers back into the sea.Just like in Dad's Army.

Snickers Man · 03-06-2006 10:44PM

TempestSabre wrote:

Navigation during WWII wasn't all that great. It was very common to bomb the wrong location. Theres loads of examples you could pick. Its well documented.

True. In fact in its first bombing raid of the war, against Kiel in northern Germany, some of the British planes bombed a port in Denmark by mistake and killed quite a few people. They were of course immediately apologetic and paid compensation, as indeed did Hitler over the North Strand incident.

Still, that was also no doubt a nefarious plot by the British to remind the Danish to maintain their publicly proclaimed neutrality (the Irish Free State wasn't the only country to do that in WWII, but it was one of the few to get away with it).

Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

03-06-2006 11:24PM

Snickers Man wrote:

Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

Like great quote! Probably explains what really happened in this case.

Victor · 03-06-2006 11:33PM

Hagar wrote:

Everybody had plans to invade Ireland and they still do. We occupy a strategic location of far greater value than our ability to defend it.

Its OK, we flooded the last fifty miles of road.

ArphaRima · 04-06-2006 07:21AM

Everybody has plans to invade everybody. What kind of general goes before his boss and says "eh, well we dont really have anything prepared on that, let us get back to you". WW2 was no different. Now is no different. We I am certain of it, have plans to invade the north. The UK has plans to invade us. Its normal.

EWheelChair · 04-06-2006 07:45AM

Ah well, at least its not a thread about faces on the moon!

GerardKeating · 04-06-2006 08:51AM

Hagar wrote:

The way I heard from my Da was that it was a bombing raid destined for Liverpool which went wrong. When you consider how primitive navigation was then by today's standards it's not hard to imagine that this could easily happen. Liverpool is only about 60 miles away as the crow, or Dornier, flies.

Even with the most primivate navigation, confusing liverpool and dublin is unbelivable, one if a city of the west coast of a large land mass, the other a city on the east coast of a large land mass

Not confusing Dublin and Belfast, now that is more likley, both are east coast cities with rivers through them and a bit of a bay at the mouth of the river.

The German pilot visited Dublin a few years back to appologies, he said he was off course and bound for belfast.

GerardKeating · 04-06-2006 08:58AM

Badly Drunk Boy wrote:

I live near The Curragh. A lot of soldiers were interned there during the Second World War. The German soldiers worked on the bog, cutting and footing turf (energy resources). And a significant proportion were happy to stay in Ireland when the war was over.

I know two lads from Kilcullen in Kildare, whose grandfathers were Germanic...

There was a story about two years ago, which came out with the government papers released under the 30 years rule, about the suicide of a former germany solider interned during the war. After the war, we tried to deport him back to Germany, but he did not want to go and commited suicide.

DublinWriter · 04-06-2006 09:20AM

GerardKeating wrote:

Even with the most primivate navigation, confusing liverpool and dublin is unbelivable, one if a city of the west coast of a large land mass, the other a city on the east coast of a large land mass

You have to remember that they were flying at night.

DublinWriter · 04-06-2006 09:22AM

Badly Drunk Boy wrote:

I live near The Curragh. A lot of soldiers were interned there during the Second World War. The German soldiers worked on the bog, cutting and footing turf (energy resources). And a significant proportion were happy to stay in Ireland when the war was over.

At the time the Curragh had three Internment camps - one for the Brits, one for the Germans and one for the IRA.

Badly Drunk Boy wrote:

I know two lads from Kilcullen in Kildare, whose grandfathers were Germanic...

Ah, that must be young Fritz and Karl then.

Badly Drunk Boy · 04-06-2006 09:23AM

EWheelChair wrote:

Ah well, at least its not a thread about faces on the moon!

Or faeces on the moon...;)

BigEejit · 04-06-2006 12:16PM

Badly Drunk Boy wrote:

Or faeces on the moon...;)

bound to be some, there were up there for a few days ...

wasn't there are program on RTE a few years back that had footage of the Germans in the internment camp and showing them working / going to dances etc etc ... also some of them absconded back to Germany, but the vast majority stayed

pork99 · 04-06-2006 01:33PM

el tel wrote:

Ireland's neutrality then, like now, is a joke.
British POWs captured in Ireland who should have been detained
for the remainder of the hostilities were eventually brought up to
the border and released. In one celebrated instance, a British officer
who escaped from his Irish 'captors' and made it to the North was sent
back by his superiors to avoid damaging the little relationship with the Irish. So he came back only to be released again in due course...

We we neutral but "pro-allied" neutral

- which was the most morally correct position short of declaring war on the Nazis (which would have been quite safe to do from 1942 onwards).

It was also a very pragmatic position. In 1939 the IRA started a bombing campaign in Britain. The Nazis, on the "enemy-of-my-enemy is my friend" principle moved to support this, Admiral Canaris establishing contact with the IRA in order to supply them with intelligence and perhaps logistic help.

After a now forgotten IRA "spectacular", blowing up the Royal Ordnance Factory in Waltham Abbey in Essex in January 1940, Churchill sent de Valera a very curt reminder that if this sort of thing was to continue, robust action would be taken by the British government (perhaps a British invasion and occupation of the Free State?).

De Valera might have had some pro-German sympathies but I think he wanted to keep his job. Consequently many IRA activists were rounded up and interned and where necessary hanged. De Valera was completely ruthless because he knew what the consequences would be of doing nothing about it.

(I personally believe we should have declared war on Hitler. Not to be pro-British but to be pro-French, pro-Polish, pro-Czech, pro-Dutch, pro-Danish etc. Given the opportunity Hitler would have had as little regard for our independence as he did for the freedom of those countries.)

DublinWriter · 04-06-2006 01:52PM

pork99 wrote:

(I personally believe we should have declared war on Hitler. Not to be pro-British but to be pro-French, pro-Polish, pro-Czech, pro-Dutch, pro-Danish etc. Given the opportunity Hitler would have had as little regard for our independence as he did for the freedom of those countries.)

DeValera aside (I'm not his greatest fan), joining WWII would have been disasterous to Ireland considering what an economic basket case Ireland was at the time and how much we relied on shipping and the high level of U-Boat activity in the mid-Atlantic.

The Nazis also had secret plans to use the West of Ireland as a launching location for the planned V3 rocket to hit the East Coast of the US.

However, many thousands of Irish men signed up, including spitfire ace Paddy Finucane, one of the most decorated pilots of his time...

http://www.century-of-flight.freeola.com/Aviation%20history/WW2/aces/Brendan%20Eugene%20Finucane.htm

However, it's been shameful the way we've (the State that is) have neglected to celebrate these 'forgotten' heros.

Wibbs · 04-06-2006 02:10PM

DublinWriter wrote:

DeValera aside (I'm not his greatest fan), joining WWII would have been disasterous to Ireland considering what an economic basket case Ireland was at the time and how much we relied on shipping and the high level of U-Boat activity in the mid-Atlantic.

I'd be of the same opinion.

However, it's been shameful the way we've (the State that is) have neglected to celebrate these 'forgotten' heros.

How true. Both my father and uncle served in the Royal navy and RAF respectively. I have others in the family who signed up with the yanks later on(wouldn't take the kings shilling an all that

). Most joined up to fight Hitler and some joined(the minority) for economic reasons. To me them and those like them deserve respect for shaping the world we live in today, for good or ill. That they helped to stop that evil regime is enough.

pork99 · 04-06-2006 02:57PM

DublinWriter wrote:

The Nazis also had secret plans to use the West of Ireland as a launching location for the planned V3 rocket to hit the East Coast of the US.

By the time they'd developed the V2 let alone the V3 they were having major problems keeping the US, British and Soviet armies out of Germany and were in no position to launch any more invasions. Seizing the West coast of this country was a fantasy for them at that stage.

DublinWriter · 04-06-2006 04:26PM

pork99 wrote:

By the time they'd developed the V2 let alone the V3 they were having major problems keeping the US, British and Soviet armies out of Germany and were in no position to launch any more invasions. Seizing the West coast of this country was a fantasy for them at that stage.

True, but my point was that they obvious had completely disregarded Ireland's neutral status in the first place.

Snickers Man · 04-06-2006 05:57PM

DublinWriter wrote:

However, it's been shameful the way we've (the State that is) have neglected to celebrate these 'forgotten' heros.

Oh please. Not this ****e again.

You saw how divisive was the debate on celebrating the 1916 mob, who really were fighting on our own behalf, or thought they were.

Can you imagine how it would be if we demand the 'celebration' of those who joined up in the British Army? Whose main purpose over the centuries has been the subjugation of other nations, not least our own.

DublinWriter · 04-06-2006 06:07PM

Snickers Man wrote:

Can you imagine how it would be if we demand the 'celebration' of those who joined up in the British Army? Whose main purpose over the centuries has been the subjugation of other nations, not least our own.

Exactly, it's probably why we don't celebrate it as we're all a bunch of narrow minded begrudgers.

Thankfully, due to the effort of the Allies in WWII (including the Brits), we're free to express this narrow-mindedness on forums such as these.

So let's just pretend that they never existed and take our freedom for granted. Business as usual.

ArphaRima · 04-06-2006 06:22PM

Ireland has had thousands of people fighting in the British Army, Navy and Air Force since their inception. Irish soldiers in these armies have fought bravely and valiantly, and were decorated accordingly. They have participated in the subjugation of other countries. Including our own (through putting down rebellion etc.) They have been involved in the killing of innocents (read up on India)as equally as the English, Scottish, and Welsh soldiers. We were full participants in the British Empire. Whether willing or not is the subject of debate for state and revisionist historians.
My points: 1/ they (ww2 veterans)should be celebrated as war heroes in a just war to rid europe of Nazism, and indirectly defend Ireland from them.
2/ Make your own mind up on Irish history. The junior cert history books only teach you the basic Ann and Barry version of events.

Manic Moran · 04-06-2006 07:30PM

I believe that the figures are that on a per-capita basis, Ireland sent more people to fight with the British Forces than any country in the Commonwealth.

There was a picture in the newspapers back in 1944 or so, of two British soldiers in a foxhole on a beach, with bullets whizzing over their heads. One is saying to the other: "Well, Seamus, you can say what you want about Dev, but at least he kept us out of this war..."

NTM

New_Departure06 · 04-06-2006 07:53PM

(I personally believe we should have declared war on Hitler. Not to be pro-British but to be pro-French, pro-Polish, pro-Czech, pro-Dutch, pro-Danish etc. Given the opportunity Hitler would have had as little regard for our independence as he did for the freedom of those countries.)

We could not have defended ourselves without allowing the British troops in and then there's the problem of getting them to leave afterwards. We made the right decision.

GerardKeating · 05-06-2006 12:44AM

DublinWriter wrote:

You have to remember that they were flying at night.

Ever fly at night? the coast line kind of stands out. even on a dark over cast night.

Snickers Man · 05-06-2006 02:01AM

New_Departure06 wrote:

We made the right decision.

Damn right, we made the right decision.

And you know what? We should be proud of it.

To ask an Irish government of today to engage in the hypocrisy of pretending we all joined together to defeat the evils of Nazism because we were all of the mind that it was our duty to do so is absurd.

There is a huge cosy consensus building up in Western Europe about WWII and what it was all about. Much of what people now believe is erroneous. Did anybody see Sir Terry Wogan's interview with Gerry Ryan last week during which he said, in response to a question about current British attitudes to Europe: "Well you must remember, they saved Europe twice."

This is of course unadulterated bull****. But it's a point of view that is quite sincerely held by many British people. We would be doing the continent a favour if we actually were quite blatant in pointing out that not everybody saw that declaring war on Germany was the answer to all our problems.

This is not to say that Hitler was a nice guy; on the contrary, he was a monster. But most small countries in Europe tried to assert their neutrality, only to be firmly disabused of the notion when the shooting started. That we were one of the few who got away with it should not lead us now to say: 'Of course, we took part in the fight against Hitler to the same extent as everybody in Poland, Holland, France, etc etc etc

There will be, as there always has been, private commemorations by families of the role their ancestors played. If you're a bit more keen, you can go to the Armistice day commemorations in London in November, but if you really really want to give thanks for the defeat of Nazism, the people you should say the biggest thank you to are the Soviet Union. They are the people who bore the brunt of the fight against the Nazis from the moment Germany invaded them in 1941.

Germans bombing of Dublin in WWII

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