Germans bombing of Dublin in WWII

Archeron

Read an article in the Herald (I know, the herald, sorry) last night that some historian has suggested that the bombs dropped on Dublin in WWII were direct retaliation for our sending of fire trucks to help when Belfast was bombed, despite our neutrality. Apparantly Goebels was incensed that the Irish people helped Britain in the war, and when the Irish fire trucks helped in belfast, it was splashed all over the media in the UK. It indicated that the target was most likely a city centre fire station, but they missed blowing up Summerhill Parade and NCR. Its an interesting theory. Has anyone ever heard mention of this before? I've heard a couple of conspiracy theories before as to why those bombs were dropped, but this is a new one. Any thoughts?

Bluetonic

In fairness http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=576

Obviously was a slow news day.

p.pete

Always seemed far-fetched to me that they could get as far as Dublin without realising they'd gone too far.

Hagar

The way I heard from my Da was that it was a bombing raid destined for Liverpool which went wrong. When you consider how primitive navigation was then by today's standards it's not hard to imagine that this could easily happen. Liverpool is only about 60 miles away as the crow, or Dornier, flies.

Don't forget they also bombed the SCR on another occasion. This just happens to be the home of the Jewish community in Dublin. Now try that one out with your precision bombing conspiracy theories.;)

Wibbs

Yep, ASFAIR they used Ireland as a navigation aid. They ran up the irish sea hugging our coast, then a right turn and a few mins later you were over britain. This avoided the UK radar and fighter patrols as well(which was the main reason). Many of the pilots were young and inexperienced but, not by that much. Certainly the Germans had very good pilot/navigators. Navigation was quite accurate too(contrary to popular..). It's pretty much the same as sea navigation only faster and we've been doing that accurately for quite a while. Night flying would be an issue though.

The most likely explanation for that one at least was that they were running out of fuel and dumped the bombs to reduce weight. AFAIR there was a blackout on the nth strand(but not in most of Dublin) that night so they thought they were dropping their bombs into the sea. The SCR is probably a bigger screw up similar to that.

Archeron

thanks Wibbs. Thats the same thing I had heard as well. I didnt intend this to be a conspiracy theory, just thought it was an interesting idea.

Grace Jones and Wesley Snipes are the same person. now THATS a conspiracy theory.

mikedragon32

Well if you read it in the Herald, it must be true!

I'd heard Wibbs' theory before, and also my Father (who remembers it), says that at the time it was generally believed the bombers were en-route to Belfast when the bombs were dropped.

Archeron

mikedragon32 wrote:

Well if you read it in the Herald, it must be true!
QUOTE]

LOL. Every time I quote something from the herald to a friend, I always say that first.

KTRIC

My grandad was just home from the war and living in St.Annes (raheny). He told me that they dropped alot of bomb's on Dollymount beech. The locals had to clean them up for safty.

He heard at the time that they did this because the pilots didn't want to bomb their targets and they couldn't return with the bombs as they would have been shot.

Draupnir

I've heard the fire trucks story before, I think its a very well known and plausible theory.

My grandmother lived on Summerhill Parade at the time and her whole family was moved to Cabra when it happened.

The bomb on Dollymount beach thing, sounds a bit...untrue

KTRIC

Draupnir wrote:

The bomb on Dollymount beach thing, sounds a bit...untrue

So you calling my grandad a liar ???

I've seen the pics of the bombs being moved by the way.

el tel

K-TRIC wrote:

My grandad was just home from the war and living in St.Annes (raheny). He told me that they dropped alot of bomb's on Dollymount beech. The locals had to clean them up for safty.

He heard at the time that they did this because the pilots didn't want to bomb their targets and they couldn't return with the bombs as they would have been shot.

The only reason why they'd be shot would be for being so dumb as to carry a load of 500lb bombs half way across Europe and back without getting rid of them. They had to get rid of them, aircraft performance and safety would have dictated they do this.

ionapaul

It certainly isn't so far-fetched to be described a conspiracy theory - where's the conspiracy? Another theory, equally or more plausible, is a reason the German's bombed Dublin was as a warning...'look what we can do if you stray too far from your neutrality'.

Degsy

My granny who lived in clontarf at the time said they used to dump thier bombs in the sea on thier way back from england,presumably to save fuel..

DublinWriter

The Luftwaffe also 'accidently' bombed a creamery in Wexford that was being used to supply the British.

Dyr

Yeah i've heard the creamery story too but i wonder if that was coincidence

A book called Landfall Ireland was released a year or two ago about all this kind of thing

KTRIC

ionapaul wrote:

look what we can do if you stray too far from your neutrality'.

Exactly, we got off lightly compaired to some other countries.

el tel

Ireland's neutrality then, like now, is a joke.
British POWs captured in Ireland who should have been detained
for the remainder of the hostilities were eventually brought up to
the border and released. In one celebrated instance, a British officer
who escaped from his Irish 'captors' and made it to the North was sent
back by his superiors to avoid damaging the little relationship with the Irish. So he came back only to be released again in due course...

Hagar

German internees, there were no POWs by the way, were also given latitude and many worked outside the camps. Their detention was quite relaxed and amounted to little more then turning up for roll-call or at least having a good excuse for not turning up for roll-call. So I'm told anyway. Freedom of movement wasn't all one sided by any means.

LikeOhMyGawd!

Hagar wrote:

German internees, there were no POWs by the way, were also given latitude and many worked outside the camps. Their detention was quite relaxed and amounted to little more then turning up for roll-call or at least having a good excuse for not turning up for roll-call. So I'm told anyway. Freedom of movement wasn't all one sided by any means.

There is freedom of movement and there's actively returning detainees back to their armies to join the conflict again.

DamoKen

ionapaul wrote:

It certainly isn't so far-fetched to be described a conspiracy theory - where's the conspiracy? Another theory, equally or more plausible, is a reason the German's bombed Dublin was as a warning...'look what we can do if you stray too far from your neutrality'.

seem to remember reading that somewhere myself, not the most subtle reminder but effective. On a side note, my gran has some photo's of her wedding which was a few days after the bombing (she lived on Clonliffe Road, most of the windows in the house were broken during it).
She had to walk across some planks covering a crater to get into the church, before that however a procession of coffins of victims of the bombing were brought out of the church. A grim reminder of what would happen if we strayed too far

frobisher

When I was very young I heard a version that always struck me as the most plausible. Apparently the pilots where to fly to South West Ireland and then follow the coast to Belfast and drop their bombs. They knew Dublin was a city half way along but they mistook Waterford for Dublin so when they got to Dublin they thought it was Belfast and dropped their bombs.

Esel

They did it as a favour to Vinston Churchill. In turn, he bombed a couple of 'neutral' countries near the Fatherland. de Walera knew vat vas goink on, but he kept schtum, because Frank Von Ryan vas at large. :rolleyes:

TempestSabre

Considering Ryanair managed to land at the wrong airport...

Cosmo K

The Luftwaffe...good naviagators ??? :eek: They even bombed the german city of Freiburg by mistake in 1940......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiburg

Badly Drunk Boy

I live near The Curragh. A lot of soldiers were interned there during the Second World War. The German soldiers worked on the bog, cutting and footing turf (energy resources). And a significant proportion were happy to stay in Ireland when the war was over.

I know two lads from Kilcullen in Kildare, whose grandfathers were Germanic...

Black Swan

The Herald reports a 60 year old story about the Germans bombing the Irish? That sounds like something Fox News would report in the States just before the presidential election vote. Senator Kerry (candidate for 2004 president), who was awarded the Navy Cross and 3 Purple Hearts during the Viet Nam War (more than 30 years ago), is in fact a coward. The guy running for a second term as president, who got no medals for sitting safe in the States during the Viet Nam War, and who defended the State of Texas against hypothetical attacks by the State of Oklahoma, is a hero.

If the Herald is going to dig up old history, they should report something really juicey from WWII, like when a US submarine mistakenly torpedoed the HMS Ark Royal (aircraft carrier), almost sinking it. But to give it a really good spin, they could ask why the Americans were attacking the British?

Or better yet, I'll come over to Ireland, bring a bunch of Germans along, and we will all meet you guys in one of your pubs and really get bombed! Oh, don't forget to invite the Herald.

Badly Drunk Boy

An uncle of my father's was taken prisoner by the Japanese. The Americans blew up the ship he was on...

He didn't get any sort of acknowledgement. And because he was an Irish citizen, he had no duty to be there...

ArphaRima

The bombing of Dublin was a mistake by the British AND the germans. The germans used a navigation aid that involved european based navigation aids broadcasting a signal across the channel towards the target. The aircraft then followed that signal. (it involved beeping sound that told the pilot when to turn left or right etc) The british cracked the system and began to bend the signal towards other locations, which were normally open countryside or open sea. In our case, the signal was bent towards open sea. But the German pilots found Dublin, thought it was Liverpool and bombed us. It was as simple as that.

Black Swan

So the British bombed Dublin using German planes? That's not "new(s)" is it?

Manic Moran

There's a good book out there by a Canadian airman entitled 'Grounded in Eire' about his stay as a guest of the Irish Defense Forces. It is well researched, complete with pictures of the original documents held in the Cathal Brugha Defense Forces Library of the day-to-day running of the camp. Things like "There have been complaints about the internees cycling four abreast on the road to the races"

There was also a movie of some questionable quality, entitled "The Bryll Cream Boys." Whilst the movie itself was a soppy romance thing, the portrayal of life as a detainee in the Curragh, and of the nature of the camp and its rules appear to be quite accurate. They even got the rank insignia right for the time.

NTM

Mr.Nice Guy

I remember being told about this in school.

I think it's certainly a plausible theory that the Germans intentionally attacked Ireland to send de Valera a message. I don't think we'll ever fully know though.

Wibbs

el tel wrote:

Ireland's neutrality then, like now, is a joke.
British POWs captured in Ireland who should have been detained
for the remainder of the hostilities were eventually brought up to
the border and released.

It was the usual Dev balancing act. If it was considered you were on a training flight then you would be returned. If however you were on an operational mission you would be interred. Strangely enough the lads from the UK were always on "training" flights.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I think it's certainly a plausible theory that the Germans intentionally attacked Ireland to send de Valera a message. I don't think we'll ever fully know though.

Unlikely. It would be far more likely that the British would have bombed us to get us into the war. Our atlantic ports were very strategic. The Germans were happier we were out of it. They did have a plan to invade for our strategic value(operation Grun, I kid you not), but it was put on hold after operation sealion/battle of britain went pear shaped.

Hagar

Everybody had plans to invade Ireland and they still do. We occupy a strategic location of far greater value than our ability to defend it. Even today when planes can fly non-stop fron the US to any part of Europe the Yanks still use Shannon as a staging post for a lot of their flights.

TempestSabre

Navigation during WWII wasn't all that great. It was very common to bomb the wrong location. Theres loads of examples you could pick. Its well documented.

Terry

Badly Drunk Boy wrote:

I live near The Curragh. A lot of soldiers were interned there during the Second World War. The German soldiers worked on the bog, cutting and footing turf (energy resources). And a significant proportion were happy to stay in Ireland when the war was over.

I know two lads from Kilcullen in Kildare, whose grandfathers were Germanic...

indeed. there are some dutch farmers close by and their father flew in the luftwaffe and was interned in the curragh. very aryan loking kids too

dathi1

http://www.liveireland.com/features.shtml
the top prog does a good job on it

Degsy

Hagar wrote:

Everybody had plans to invade Ireland and they still do. We occupy a strategic location of far greater value than our ability to defend it. Even today when planes can fly non-stop fron the US to any part of Europe the Yanks still use Shannon as a staging post for a lot of their flights.

Dont be absurd.Our army and airforce wiould make mincemeat out of any invader foolish enough to take us on.Our bi-plane s would sweep thier fighters from the sky and our mighty FCA would cast the attackers back into the sea.Just like in Dad's Army.

Snickers Man

TempestSabre wrote:

Navigation during WWII wasn't all that great. It was very common to bomb the wrong location. Theres loads of examples you could pick. Its well documented.

True. In fact in its first bombing raid of the war, against Kiel in northern Germany, some of the British planes bombed a port in Denmark by mistake and killed quite a few people. They were of course immediately apologetic and paid compensation, as indeed did Hitler over the North Strand incident.

Still, that was also no doubt a nefarious plot by the British to remind the Danish to maintain their publicly proclaimed neutrality (the Irish Free State wasn't the only country to do that in WWII, but it was one of the few to get away with it).

Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

Black Swan

Snickers Man wrote:

Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

Like great quote! Probably explains what really happened in this case.

Victor

Hagar wrote:

Everybody had plans to invade Ireland and they still do. We occupy a strategic location of far greater value than our ability to defend it.

Its OK, we flooded the last fifty miles of road.

ArphaRima

Everybody has plans to invade everybody. What kind of general goes before his boss and says "eh, well we dont really have anything prepared on that, let us get back to you". WW2 was no different. Now is no different. We I am certain of it, have plans to invade the north. The UK has plans to invade us. Its normal.

EWheelChair

Ah well, at least its not a thread about faces on the moon!

GerardKeating

Hagar wrote:

The way I heard from my Da was that it was a bombing raid destined for Liverpool which went wrong. When you consider how primitive navigation was then by today's standards it's not hard to imagine that this could easily happen. Liverpool is only about 60 miles away as the crow, or Dornier, flies.

Even with the most primivate navigation, confusing liverpool and dublin is unbelivable, one if a city of the west coast of a large land mass, the other a city on the east coast of a large land mass

Not confusing Dublin and Belfast, now that is more likley, both are east coast cities with rivers through them and a bit of a bay at the mouth of the river.

The German pilot visited Dublin a few years back to appologies, he said he was off course and bound for belfast.

GerardKeating

Badly Drunk Boy wrote:

I live near The Curragh. A lot of soldiers were interned there during the Second World War. The German soldiers worked on the bog, cutting and footing turf (energy resources). And a significant proportion were happy to stay in Ireland when the war was over.

I know two lads from Kilcullen in Kildare, whose grandfathers were Germanic...

There was a story about two years ago, which came out with the government papers released under the 30 years rule, about the suicide of a former germany solider interned during the war. After the war, we tried to deport him back to Germany, but he did not want to go and commited suicide.

DublinWriter

GerardKeating wrote:

Even with the most primivate navigation, confusing liverpool and dublin is unbelivable, one if a city of the west coast of a large land mass, the other a city on the east coast of a large land mass

You have to remember that they were flying at night.

DublinWriter

Badly Drunk Boy wrote:

I live near The Curragh. A lot of soldiers were interned there during the Second World War. The German soldiers worked on the bog, cutting and footing turf (energy resources). And a significant proportion were happy to stay in Ireland when the war was over.

At the time the Curragh had three Internment camps - one for the Brits, one for the Germans and one for the IRA.

Badly Drunk Boy wrote:

I know two lads from Kilcullen in Kildare, whose grandfathers were Germanic...

Ah, that must be young Fritz and Karl then.

Badly Drunk Boy

EWheelChair wrote:

Ah well, at least its not a thread about faces on the moon!

Or faeces on the moon...;)

BigEejit

Badly Drunk Boy wrote:

Or faeces on the moon...;)

bound to be some, there were up there for a few days ...

wasn't there are program on RTE a few years back that had footage of the Germans in the internment camp and showing them working / going to dances etc etc ... also some of them absconded back to Germany, but the vast majority stayed

pork99

el tel wrote:

Ireland's neutrality then, like now, is a joke.
British POWs captured in Ireland who should have been detained
for the remainder of the hostilities were eventually brought up to
the border and released. In one celebrated instance, a British officer
who escaped from his Irish 'captors' and made it to the North was sent
back by his superiors to avoid damaging the little relationship with the Irish. So he came back only to be released again in due course...

We we neutral but "pro-allied" neutral - which was the most morally correct position short of declaring war on the Nazis (which would have been quite safe to do from 1942 onwards).

It was also a very pragmatic position. In 1939 the IRA started a bombing campaign in Britain. The Nazis, on the "enemy-of-my-enemy is my friend" principle moved to support this, Admiral Canaris establishing contact with the IRA in order to supply them with intelligence and perhaps logistic help.

After a now forgotten IRA "spectacular", blowing up the Royal Ordnance Factory in Waltham Abbey in Essex in January 1940, Churchill sent de Valera a very curt reminder that if this sort of thing was to continue, robust action would be taken by the British government (perhaps a British invasion and occupation of the Free State?).

De Valera might have had some pro-German sympathies but I think he wanted to keep his job. Consequently many IRA activists were rounded up and interned and where necessary hanged. De Valera was completely ruthless because he knew what the consequences would be of doing nothing about it.

(I personally believe we should have declared war on Hitler. Not to be pro-British but to be pro-French, pro-Polish, pro-Czech, pro-Dutch, pro-Danish etc. Given the opportunity Hitler would have had as little regard for our independence as he did for the freedom of those countries.)

DublinWriter

pork99 wrote:

(I personally believe we should have declared war on Hitler. Not to be pro-British but to be pro-French, pro-Polish, pro-Czech, pro-Dutch, pro-Danish etc. Given the opportunity Hitler would have had as little regard for our independence as he did for the freedom of those countries.)

DeValera aside (I'm not his greatest fan), joining WWII would have been disasterous to Ireland considering what an economic basket case Ireland was at the time and how much we relied on shipping and the high level of U-Boat activity in the mid-Atlantic.

The Nazis also had secret plans to use the West of Ireland as a launching location for the planned V3 rocket to hit the East Coast of the US.

However, many thousands of Irish men signed up, including spitfire ace Paddy Finucane, one of the most decorated pilots of his time...

http://www.century-of-flight.freeola.com/Aviation%20history/WW2/aces/Brendan%20Eugene%20Finucane.htm

However, it's been shameful the way we've (the State that is) have neglected to celebrate these 'forgotten' heros.