Ireland another US state

thebaz · 01-06-2006 10:55PM

trillianv wrote:

Actually it's pretty simple...there are 50 states. I have never referred nor heard referred to DC as the "51st" State. Just to make it "crystal clear"

And Ireland is a lot more like the UK than the US. When I first moved over here, I thought that it would be simple to acclimate myself to the culture and society here. I hit a major culture shock in the first month and everyone kept asking me what was so different from the US....my only answer is everything. Whilst Ireland is picking up parts of the American culture (i.e. high spending, high debt etc) that are not that nicer bits of America, you guys don't seem to mind so much as to stop emigrating to the US or going there for working holidays on J1s.

Also as an American here....I can't stand American tourists nor most of the crap commercialism we have exported here, but there is obviously a market for it and the Irish must be shopping/eating at these establishments.

i'm sorry to dissapoint you, but there is confusion whether DC is a state or note=, lets not get anal about it - i don't care if there is 50 / 51 or 52 states. My point was that i believe Ireland has become very Americanised, recently, and judging by the posts here i am not the only one, either. You don't think so , fair eneough thats your view, -- when i was growing up people didn't drive SUVs on the streets of Dublin, kids weren't going around with American twangs (youd have been laughed at ) , there was no Google, Microsoft, Dell with such a presence, no Dundrum mall - as said before i'm not saying its a bad thing , just my observation -- i'll have my view and you have yours --

thebaz · 01-06-2006 10:56PM

trillianv wrote:

Actually it's pretty simple...there are 50 states. I have never referred nor heard referred to DC as the "51st" State. Just to make it "crystal clear"

And Ireland is a lot more like the UK than the US. When I first moved over here, I thought that it would be simple to acclimate myself to the culture and society here. I hit a major culture shock in the first month and everyone kept asking me what was so different from the US....my only answer is everything. Whilst Ireland is picking up parts of the American culture (i.e. high spending, high debt etc) that are not that nicer bits of America, you guys don't seem to mind so much as to stop emigrating to the US or going there for working holidays on J1s.

Also as an American here....I can't stand American tourists nor most of the crap commercialism we have exported here, but there is obviously a market for it and the Irish must be shopping/eating at these establishments.

i'm sorry to dissapoint you, but there is confusion whether DC is a state or not, lets not get anal about it - i don't care if there is 50 / 51 or 52 states. My point was that i believe Ireland has become very Americanised, recently, and judging by the posts here i am not the only one, either. You don't think so , fair eneough thats your view, -- when i was growing up people didn't drive SUVs on the streets of Dublin, kids weren't going around with American twangs (youd have been laughed at ) , there was no Google, Microsoft, Dell with such a presence, no Dundrum mall - as said before i'm not saying its a bad thing , just my observation -- i'll have my view and you have yours --

solas · 02-06-2006 12:37AM

eh...no.

FillSpectre · 02-06-2006 07:52AM

thebaz wrote:

Whats your point ??
are you saying i shouldn't have started this thread , because i haven't met your high standards ?
What has the devil got anything to do with this thread , maybe you should stick to the topic , instead of picking bones with my postings !

My point is that because some hack journalist says something people believe and find "proof" it is true.

It isn't my high standrad it is a level of understanding about media in Ireland , economics and America.

After living in America I can say we are nothing like them. I told you the devil story becasue you seem to like simple hack like stories. Did you miss the point about globalisation, America and Europe?

How long have you lived in the US? DW lived there how long? To say we are becoming just like the US you need to know a lot about America. People are always going on about Irish begrudgery and the US striving for sucess as a major difference. Did that go away? The fact you don't know or care how many US states there are kind of proves your lack of knowledge.
The fact that many states are very different seems to miss people.

We are very European in our way of life and constitution is also. We treat our residents with more respect, we have more just prisons and legal systems. We are radically different to the US and only superfictal appearances make it look like we are americanised. It also ignores the globalisation issue which is not from the US.

This thread starts with ignornace and then goes down hill. So my point is media hacks should not be listened to and there is no point starting a thread to discuss what they say

dbnavan · 02-06-2006 09:04AM

thebaz wrote:

i'm sorry to dissapoint you, but there is confusion whether DC is a state or note=, lets not get anal about it - i don't care if there is 50 / 51 or 52 states. My point was that i believe Ireland has become very Americanised, recently, and judging by the posts here i am not the only one, either. You don't think so , fair eneough thats your view, -- when i was growing up people didn't drive SUVs on the streets of Dublin, kids weren't going around with American twangs (youd have been laughed at ) , there was no Google, Microsoft, Dell with such a presence, no Dundrum mall - as said before i'm not saying its a bad thing , just my observation -- i'll have my view and you have yours --

The only person confused about this matter seems to be you, Washington, D.C. is the capital city of the United States of America. "D.C." stands for the District of Columbia, the federal district containing the city of Washington

As for Ireland being the 51st state? Last time I checked, it says Eire on my passport, I dont have an American twang, I sing Amhrán na bhFiann, when the national flag is raised before football matchs. Robbie Keane wears green not Blue white and red.

All the things you stated about American companies coming to Ireland. Before they came here Irish people went abroad to work for them, because we didnt have enough work here to generate for the population we had, I would prefer to get a bus or drive to work any day rather then fly to America leaving friends and family behind to find work.

So there is no SUV's in germany, france, sweeden or the UK?

**I suggest you look up the defination of anal, i doubt you'll find the word 'factual' in there

Gurgle · 02-06-2006 09:12AM

dbnavan wrote:

So there is no SUV's in germany, france, sweeden or the UK?

Japanese SUVs I might add.

ionapaul · 02-06-2006 09:31AM

dbnavan wrote:

The only person confused about this matter seems to be you, Washington, D.C. is the capital city of the United States of America. "D.C." stands for the District of Columbia, the federal district containing the city of Washington

As for Ireland being the 51st state? Last time I checked, it says Eire on my passport, I dont have an American twang, I sing Amhrán na bhFiann, when the national flag is raised before football matchs. Robbie Keane wears green not Blue white and red.

All the things you stated about American companies coming to Ireland. Before they came here Irish people went abroad to work for them, because we didnt have enough work here to generate for the population we had, I would prefer to get a bus or drive to work any day rather then fly to America leaving friends and family behind to find work.

So there is no SUV's in germany, france, sweeden or the UK?

**I suggest you look up the defination of anal, i doubt you'll find the word 'factual' in there

Come on - he wasn't saying we *are* politically a US state, just that we are becoming closer and closer culturally and socially as time goes on. Which is undeniable. As I mentioned earlier, this shouldn't surprise anyone with a grasp of history. As early as the early 1800s, the US was seen as Ireland's saviour by many immigrants in the States and those at home in Ireland - a country that would aid the Irish in their bid for independence. The relationship, in terms of cross-cultural exchange and movement of people, between Ireland and the US is a close as that which existed between most imperial powers and their most important colony! 60,000 Irish born soldiers fought for North and South in the American Civil War - both sides even sent agents to Ireland to recruit for them here. In 1860, over 25% of those living in New York city were born in Ireland, with many 1st generation Irish living there also. Think of the cultural influence the millions of Irish immigrants had over there? Since 1900 the flow of cultural influence has reversed completely, now our indigenous culture is heavily influenced by the US.

No surprise the US, Canada, Ireland, the UK and to a lesser extent, Australia and New Zealand, are so similar on so many levels. If an Amazonian tribeman compared the lives and ideologies of the average Irish person with the average American, do you think he'd find enough differences to really distinguish us as fundamentally different compared to the average Chinese, Namibian or fellow Amazonian?

dbnavan · 02-06-2006 09:41AM

The whole world is become more internationally aware, we are playing Japenese game consoles, driving Japanese cars.
Ask anyone who has moved from America to Ireland and ask them how easy it was to get used to our culture. Its not as easy as you might think.

There is a load of international resturants all over the country, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Italian, and American etc

FillSpectre · 02-06-2006 09:56AM

ionapaul wrote:

Come on - he wasn't saying we *are* politically a US state, just that we are becoming closer and closer culturally and socially as time goes on. Which is undeniable.

I deny it. We aren't anywhere near socially the same as the US. WE strive for differnet things. Most importantly America isn't like it is on TV and quite varied so what are you actually saying we are becoming like? WE are becoming more like European if you look. Our agreements and united goals are radically different from the US. Most of the money and banks in the world aren't American but European. America isn't quite as powerful as you think and China is about to step up. Games machines are a huge influence yet they are really Japaneese. GLobalisation is not americanisation.

Earthhorse · 02-06-2006 10:06AM

dochasach wrote:

The "American dream" of owning a home is also the Irish dream and obsession.

Now that is interesting. The dream of home ownership existed in Ireland long before we were ever influenced culturally by America, and in a way is a modern day replication of our obsession with land ownership. And the reason I say it's interesting is because it goes toward whether we are becoming more like Americans, they are becoming more like us (not likely), or we are both coming more like something else.

All this crass commercialism and consumerism people talk about, there is no doubt it has risen in Ireland in recent years, but did we really import this idea from the US? In the eighties our television and radio were just as saturated as they are today with American shows and music. Yet it didn't seem to have any impact on the Irish way of life. Then, from around the early nineties, the time of our first real, sustained economic growth, we started to see a different attitude arise in the Irish.

An attitude which arose, not out of exposure to American culture, but out of encouragement by state agencies and through government policies to have a more capitalist engine driving the economy. It seems inevitable that economic success brings with it a marked increase in supposedly Amercian values but really the Americans just got there first and there is nothing quintessentially American about them at all.

ionapaul · 02-06-2006 10:11AM

I disagree*. I am aware America is not like it is shown on TV, I did live there for 5 years in the recent past. You mentioned you lived there too, so I'm sure you know what you're talking about. I studied American history and the Irish influence on it at graduate level, so I know what I'm talking about there. If you think Ireland and the US are actually drifting further apart culturally and socially over time, that is your perogative.

That means we'll agree to disagree.

*edit to say I disagree with FillSpectre, not the above post

FillSpectre · 02-06-2006 10:58AM

ionapaul wrote:

I disagree*. I am aware America is not like it is shown on TV, I did live there for 5 years in the recent past. You mentioned you lived there too, so I'm sure you know what you're talking about. I studied American history and the Irish influence on it at graduate level, so I know what I'm talking about there. If you think Ireland and the US are actually drifting further apart culturally and socially over time, that is your perogative.

That means we'll agree to disagree.

*edit to say I disagree with FillSpectre, not the above post

My point is we aren't becoming like America we are becoming like the world and so is america. So what if we have influenced each other that doesn't mean we are actually beoming one or the other.

Start with prisons and homeless people first. THe treatment of people is radically different between them. Then the tax systems again radically different. Socail spending radically different.

I am not hearing you say where we actually match up to become like the US. What are the similarities that we have? People mentioned dislike for smoking and anti drinking. These are world wide health issues.

Right now in Ireland I believe there is a strong African influence, Spanish, Polish, etc... influence but American not so much. Big companies yes but they aren't all American again I say it is gloabalisation.

I don't agree to disagree becasue I don't see you actually saying how we are becoming American other than to say we influenced each other. THe Spanish Armada did too does that mean we are becoming spanish because Zara is here too?:D

ionapaul · 02-06-2006 11:28AM

Of course not!

But I do think we are culturally becoming closer and closer to America as times go on...so is the rest of the world (becoming, for lack of a better world, Americanized, whether they want to or not). This is an entirely natural historical process - they are the dominant superpower and American culture touches almost every inch of the globe*. Yes, other international cultures influence both ourselves and the US, but stepping back from that Ireland is more culturally aligned with the US than at any other time in history, and becoming closer.

Again, from the somewhat objective viewpoint of an Amazonian (or better yet, imagine the truly objective viewpoint of a Martian!), Ireland and Irish people's similarities to the the US and Americans are much more obvious than the differences. And I firmly believe the influence to be predominantly US -> Ireland rather than Ireland -> US.

If we start getting into obvious similarities and differencies we'll be typing all day! But if need be I can draw something up later. This might be one of these things that relies on your individual perspective.

*Should China become the dominant superpower or even rival superpower in years to come, we will see countries becoming more and more like China in culture, outlook and ideology I'm sure.

FillSpectre · 02-06-2006 12:11PM

Ionapaul

You still haven't stated wht the similarities are.

I have pointed out how we aren't like them. What is the same or getting closer?

As I have pointed out America is becoming more like the rest of the world as we are. The Super power element of it is not the key in my eyes it is teh fact they control loats of media hence people feel like the are being americanised. AS you agree it isn't like the tv programs and people mimic the popular media we aren't becoming american:D
We have a unique dialect with many accents and are highly fashionable. Young people will mimic popular programs but as people get older they return to their traditional accents.
I really don't know what you are saying is the same. Politically, financially and socially we are radically different. What are the matches other than superfical. Where are the cultural similarities that only match the US?

ionapaul · 02-06-2006 02:54PM

Firstly, I don't think anyone posted anything about similarities that *only* matched the US. We were discussing how Ireland is becoming more like the US over time and how, trying to be objective, our society is very, very similar to their's.

Do you want an exhaustive list of similarities? I could be here all day - and knowing your style of argument, no matter what I say you will either ignore it or tell me it doesn't matter!

How we are becoming MORE similar (that is the thing, not mere similarities, right?) over time:

Wholehearted embrace of consumerism
Wholehearted embrace of capitalism
Idea of self-entitement and culture of instant gratification
Growth of individualism (not just because of changes in society, but actual embrace of the idea that the individual is more important than the community)
Slow but steady rejection of socialist ideology by the mainstream (compare typical 3rd level student organisations to those in the 70s and 80s!)

The above are the most important ways we, as Irish society, are becoming more like the typical American. All the rest are just manifestations of the above or, as you say, mere superficialities. It is my firm belief that, baring a cultural shock due to a recession brought about by our embrace of American cultural and economic life, Ireland will be even more like America in 10, 25 and 50 years time, and less like continental Europe (which in the meantime will have moved closer to the US itself!).

I know you'll disagree, my argumentative friend

That's a little ad hominem, I know!

FillSpectre · 02-06-2006 03:46PM

That's not becoming american that is getting old:D

You are looking back on times with rose coloured glasses.

80s tax evasion doesn't sound like socilism or does the employment black market.

Ireland has always been brand consious more so than most other countries. We just couldn't afford things. Now we can we call it consumerism but the reality is we can buy it is teh only change.

Individualism is only possible with wealth and a bi product.

I get you are saying we are becoming more like america but the thread is suggesting we are becoming american. We aren't we are wealthy with all the problems that brings. WE retain more socilist values than the US and just a reduction in such things doesn't mean we are becoming like a nother place but adaptiong to new situations.

We can't not become European we are signed up for it and comitted to it and actively becoming more European. There are many reports saying America is becoming more like Europe.

I couldn't disagree with you more on your chosen subject chiefly because the assumptions on the past are not true. It just sound like age."When I was young we helped each other out" I remeber all the back stabbing in the 80s and it wasn't just politicians.

My dad's friend was giving out about vandals and how in his day stuff never happend *50s, 60s). I pointed out to him that St' Anne's Park in Raheny used to have agrand house in it that was destroyed by vandals in the 50's. New grange has graffiti in it from the same time and Bob Dylan mentions vandals stealing the handle:D

Seriously look at what was going on and there ain't much that is new other than people having money.

ionapaul · 02-06-2006 05:10PM

But isn't the question are we more or less socialist than before? More or less community-focused than before? More or less culturally unique in the world than before? Hey, I'll be the first to admit I'm getting old! But I am not looking back on the past with rose-tinted glasses - believe me, I'd rather live in the modern Ireland than the community-focused 80s and earlier - I'm definitely one of those people who believe in the primacy of the individual over the community in any case!

Ireland another US state

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