Ireland another US state

thebaz

According to Dave McWilliams , father of the Celtic Tiger, Ireland has become just another state of the U.S. . Having lived in the U.S. for awhile , the similarities are scarily real . Anti smoking, Dundrum mall , even some school kids speaking with an American twang , drive by shootings in the hood , the large SUV's , the permanent tan . Have we become the 52nd state of America ?

Donegal Lass

yea probably seein as half of us are now residing in boston or new york!!

MrJoeSoap

The 51st state being?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Pretty much...

Money talks and bull**** walks. We have the exact same commercial aspects as the Amercians, the exact same shallow dependency on material needs and the same insecurites about losing everything if we don't make at least x thousand a year. We're following their 'health' and 'beauty' trends and have no problem pollution the hell out of the place and living in denial.

Compared to euoprean countries, who are much more people friendly, far healthier and more open-minded. And can think outside the office.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

MrJoeSoap wrote:

The 51st state being?

that would be Britain

Pigman II

USA is the empire and the rest of us are her colonies.

ionapaul

I lived in California for almost five years (some graduate college and then working in the dotcoms) from the late 90s to early 00s and to be honest, both places feel very similar to me because of familiarisation. So some of the differences then:

- US is much more customer-service oriented, lots of business there realise that the well-informed customer is king and will move his/her business elsewhere unless you go the extra mile. In Ireland, most customer facing employees / businesses don't have this down quite yet, some of the customer service we suffer through is horrendous.
- There is even more of the awful 'because I'm worth it' (I want my huge SUV, don't care about others on the road, etc) attitude in the States, although obviously it is increasing over here. Used to drive me crazy.
- There is a greater appreciation of the environment by the average American (or at least Californian).

I do think we are almost as much of a consumer society as America is, and this is what links us so closely with them.

MrJoeSoap

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

that would be Britain

I'd say we were more like a UK nation than a US state, but I'd be shot before I could say "I love Ian Paisley".

Wow, thats two posts mentioning Ian Paisley in 20 minutes... weird.

dermot_sheehan

thebaz wrote:

According to Dave McWilliams , father of the Celtic Tiger, Ireland has become just another state of the U.S. . Having lived in the U.S. for awhile , the similarities are scarily real . Anti smoking, Dundrum mall , even some school kids speaking with an American twang , drive by shootings in the hood , the large SUV's , the permanent tan . Have we become the 52nd state of America ?

I'd be interested in knowing where the 51st state is though.

ionapaul

It is obvious, and no surprise given history, that the US, Canada, the UK and Ireland are like peas in a pod compared to the rest of the world, with Australia and New Zealand right on our heels. The question is are we becoming more similar as times goes on, is this a good thing and what are people's opinions of how this should change (if at all) going forward? I should state that I'm planning to move to Canada, perhaps permanently, someone over the next few years so it should also be obvious that I see the better aspects of the Anglo-American Trans-Atlantic life!

Zebra3

gabhain7 wrote:

I'd be interested in knowing where the 51st state is though.

District of Columbia.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

MrJoeSoap wrote:

I'd say we were more like a UK nation than a US state, but I'd be shot before I could say "I love Ian Paisley".

Wow, thats two posts mentioning Ian Paisley in 20 minutes... weird.

Same difference....?

ChityWest

I am not seeing the similarities at all - and wouldnt rate Dave Williams' opinion on the matter either. We dont go around invading countries or trying to tell the rest of the world how to behave/think/vote. As for increasing consumerism - well that isnt a uniquely american trait - its global and human nature. (imo)

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Pigman II wrote:

USA is the empire and the rest of us are her colonies.

Disagree with this... Euope's managed to keep a wide cultural diffreemce. I think the langauge barrier helps. If a country speaks English, it's more likley to assimilated the way we have.

thebaz

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

that would be Britain

Good shout , i was never too good at Geography !

bonkey

Zebra3 wrote:

District of Columbia.

That would be a district, not a state. Which is why they called it such.

I'm more intrested in how this Dave guy is the father of the Celtic Tiger. Did he dictate government and corporate policy in Ireland or something?

jc

arbeitsscheuer

Ireland's a mixture between a UK nation and a US state, as MrJoeSoap accurately pointed out. It should've pretty predictable really. Geographically located to be a link to the European "market", but historically influenced by our nearest neighbour, the UK. British architecture, a lot of British institutions and heritage, swamped/influenced by US consumerism and culture.

Tbh, what I've just written could easily describe Britain itself as well...

Ruu_Old

I dont think Ireland has become the '52nd state', maybe a while ago it was looking that way. Ireland doesnt get any special treatment from the US like it once did despite all the lick arshes in the government bending over backwards to help the US military and such.

Funkstard

Actually...who the hell is this Dave McWilliams lad? I've flicked through a few interviews with him about his book, and read last week he landed some record book deal or something. Is he one of these self-helpey type gob****es?

thebaz

thebaz wrote:

Dave McWilliams, father of the Celtic Tiger,

That's stretching it a little. He was an economist who coined the phrase, he can hardly claim credit for actually starting the revival.

We're like the US? Good.

Lord Oz

We're still a republic, right?

thebaz

bonkey wrote:

That would be a district, not a state. Which is why they called it such.

I'm more intrested in how this Dave guy is the father of the Celtic Tiger. Did he dictate government and corporate policy in Ireland or something?

jc

he coined the term Celtic Tiger , and writes a weekly journal in the Irish Indo . He's a financial whizzkidd , who writes on economics , on his own website , used to host a business program on TV3 .

Pigman II

I like the sig Lord Oz:D

segadreamcast

thebaz wrote:

he coined the term Celtic Tiger , and writes a weekly journal in the Irish Indo . He's a financial whizzkidd , who writes on economics , on his own website , used to host a business program on TV3 .

There are arguments that he didn't coin the term either - it was recorded elsewhere several months previously IIRC...

trillianv

Zebra3 wrote:

District of Columbia.

Uhhm actually it's not a state. There are only 50 states. Guam and Puerto Rico are our territories and DC is exactly what it says on the tin, it's a district that contains most of our political headquarters.

I am American and have been here in Ireland for the last 3 years (and no I am not of Irish descent). I am married to an Irishman and my kids will be raised here, but do I think that this country is our newest addition? No. Ireland has retained a hell of lot of it's culture and identity whilst opening itself up to globalization. And globalization is not always a bad thing. Having other cultures living here only broadens the horizons of the residents. Why would you want to live in a country that shuts itself off to the opportunities diversification can bring?

Zebra3

I'm well aware that the District of Columbia is a district and not a state, but afaik people refer to it as the 51st state because it's not in any other state and it's on the American mainland.

Plug

51st state done in the union jack:mad: :mad:

thebaz

Zebra3 wrote:

I'm well aware that the District of Columbia is a district and not a state, but afaik people refer to it as the 51st state because it's not in any other state and it's on the American mainland.

Maybe my geography was not so bad -- as there seems a bit of confusion if there is actually 50 or 51 states in the U.S.
I do know Hawaii is the the 50 th.

MrJoeSoap

thebaz wrote:

Maybe my geography was not so bad -- as there seems a bit of confusion if there is actually 50 or 51 states in the U.S.
I do know Hawaii is the the 50 th.

There are 50 states.

metrovelvet

Puerto Rico is jokingly referred to as the 51st state.

DC is not a state and no one refers to it as such.

Ireland seems to be far more English than American. Its political models, its educational systems, its cuisine, its clothes and customs seem to be green coloured versions of whatever is in Britain.

robinph

MrJoeSoap wrote:

There are 50 states.

50 states + DC which gets taxed but not represented in any of the political houses they have. PuertoRico and what ever the other little island in the caribbean is are really just colonies effectively, but don't tell the Americans that they have an empire as that may offend them.

thebaz

I forgot to mention our preppie tennagers going around in their American -Eagle/ Abercromie gear at Eddie Rockets , the googleland phenomon , most large American Multinationals having an outpost here in sunny Ireland . There are many good point in our Californiasation , more jobs , good to have Dell, Microsoft, Google , Yahoo etc etc here -- they boost economy -- the point of the article was that these institutions could pack up in the future to cheaper climes such as India, China, Eastern Europe . In fact many sucessfully and unsuccessfully such as Dell have done just that.

Gandhi

A lot of times when you go down to DC there will be a few nutjobs protesting that DC should get stateship, or one of those free newspapers will be having a campaign for it. Whatever slogan they are using, it typically has "51st State" in it somewhere.

Manic Moran

Puerto Rico is jokingly referred to as the 51st state.

Curiously, Puerto Ricans, although they hold US Passports, have no voting rights in the US. Their representative in Congress, Louis Fortuno, Republican, also has no voting rights.

There have been referenda on the issue in 1967, 1993 and 1998, in all three cases, the citizens of Puerto Rico chose to maintain the status as it is.

NTM

metrovelvet

Yes and they get social security, welfare and medicaid benefits.

We are quite aware that we have an empire. I'm neither surprised nor offended.

simu

OP, have you been to the US? It's pretty damn different from here tbh.

bonkey

robinph wrote:

PuertoRico and what ever the other little island in the caribbean.

That would be Guam - the worse-off one.

dr zoidberg

Guam's in the Pacific

But yeah, Ireland is becoming a lot like the US, but I don't think any much more so than the rest of Europe, maybe a little more due to the language. The whole process of "globalisation" is really just one of Americanisation, and american culture is whitewashing everyone elses in the world - go anywhere developed and people will be wearing jeans, eating at McDonald's, drinking Coca-cola etc. It's sad because we are losing our soul, but it's not just us it's all of the so-called "west".

Of course there are still a lot of unique things about us, and we need to do everything possible to preserve our identity.

DublinWriter

We're far closer to the states than we like to admit.

But anytime anyone levels that accusation at us we always fall back on the good auld 'ooohh but we're members of the EU' patter.

Like the states, we don't have a functioning health care system and most of us subscribe to private health care schemes.

Like the states, we're law\litigation crazy. Mention anything barely legally naughty and people froth at the mouth. Boards.ie is a great case in point. I just came from a thread started by someone asking about newsgroups and NNTP. A mod threatened to close the thread stating that he/she/it didn't want anything to do with warez being discussed, yet there was no previous talk about warez at all. Secondly, like the states, you won't see an uneven paving stone around Dublin city as the council are scared people may sue. I've worked in Brussels, Paris and Frankfurt and lost count of the number of times I've nearly went arse over tit on paving stones.

Like the states, we think that poor people are poor because they are lazy. Feck all idea of social inclusion. I'm all right Jack, stuff you.

Like the states, we work hard, not smart. Always make sure the boss sees you working early\late, although you might be surfing the Internet for all he/she/it knows.

Or in other words, like the states, we honestly believe that 'arbeit macht frei'.

...now I wonder where they got that particular idea from?!

thebaz

simu wrote:

OP, have you been to the US? It's pretty damn different from here tbh.

Did i not state in my original post that i lived there -- and in my opinion Ireland is pretty damn similar - for your information i lived in Seattle which even had similar weather.

Black Swan

thebaz wrote:

Have we become the 52nd state of America ?

Just curious. Like what's the name of the 51st state? And don't tell me Tony Blairland. The last time I travelled my homeland, there were only 50 states. DC is not a state (although maybe a in a state of Bushy confusion). Nor are the territories like Puerto Rico or Guam.

Now to address the OP topic. There may be some truth to what (s)he says. For example, one of the best brews in the world is Guinness from Dublin (not that stuff manufactured in the UK or Canada by the same name). But for some reason, that poor quality, mass produced swill that we carelessly make in the states called Bud is having record sales in Ireland.

mang87

I'm not american. I atleast have a basic grasp of geogprapy.

thebaz

as you can see from previous posts in this thread, it is not crystal clear if Washington DC is counted -- again as stated previously my Geography was never too hot -- 50 or 51 who cares anyway -- thats not the point i'm making. Sitting in Eddie Rockets, walking in Dundrum mall , or sipping Starbucks coffee watching the SUVs go by , reminds of the U.S. I myself like much of American culture , music, film ... and dislike other aspects such as Mr. Bush, McDonalds.

lostexpectation

Manic Moran wrote:

Curiously, Puerto Ricans, although they hold US Passports, have no voting rights in the US. Their representative in Congress, Louis Fortuno, Republican, also has no voting rights.

There have been referenda on the issue in 1967, 1993 and 1998, in all three cases, the citizens of Puerto Rico chose to maintain the status as it is.

NTM

saw this program on discovery once where these puerto rican independist blew up some america fighter planes (while on the ground in the base on their island) that was cool and end I think there base get reaped by a tornado then later Nature 1 - USA 0

dochasach

ionapaul wrote:

I...The question is are we becoming more similar as times goes on, is this a good thing and what are people's opinions of how this should change (if at all) going forward? ...

Obvious differences:
The Irish still retains a healthy connection with the outside world, much more travel, slightly more likely to speak a 2nd language and a stronger tendency to charity and worker rights. Irish musicians, on average, have much more talent. We have a "slap the wrist" and "coddle the criminal" approach to crime. They throw a minor offender in prison for years beyond our maximum sentence and ask questions later. We are a demographically young country and occasionally naieve.

Similarities: By some measures, Ireland's wealth disparity is 2nd only to the U.S. and wealth is similarly focused on a handful of cities in each country. We're as much in love with cars as they. I'm seeing bigger cars and SUVs here all of the time. I saw a hummer in Dublin a few days ago and we're encouraged to spend our SSIA's on 3 liter cars. The "American dream" of owning a home is also the Irish dream and obsession. Citizens of both nations are self-assured that they deserve every bit of prosperity they have and more. They are certain that they are right and everyone else is wrong. In the Irish capital, people are building a life which matches the dream of wealth portrayed in American T.V. and cinema. If the U.S. is the most litigious society in the world, Ireland must be a close 2nd. We're both net immigration nations, we take in a few 10s of thousands, they take in a few 10s of millions. They have approximately 20,000 undocumented, untaxed Irish living and 10 million other untaxed, undocumented people living there. The politicians there use xenophobic fear of all immigrants to furthur their political careers. We focus the resources of our justice system on the antics of a handful of misguided Afghan refugees while we let a child rapist go free.

Archeron

We're becoming like America??? Oh no, quick someone ring the Ethiopian government and ask them to send us some of their cultural advisors so we can nip this in the bud.......

Manic Moran

lostexpectation wrote:

saw this program on discovery once where these puerto rican independist blew up some america fighter planes (while on the ground in the base on their island) that was cool and end I think there base get reaped by a tornado then later Nature 1 - USA 0

There's a bit of an interesting footnote on that.

About three years ago, maybe four, there were protests/demands etc to have a live-fire bombing range on one end of the island that the Navy was using taken out of service. It took a while, as the US Navy doesn't have that many live bombing ranges on that side of the US.

Finally, the military gave in, and said "OK. We'll do what you want. We'll close the bombing range and the associated base" and they pulled out.

Within months the locals were complaining that the economy in that part of the country had collapsed as it turned out it was dependent on the military base.

NTM

r3nu4l

metrovelvet wrote:

Ireland seems to be far more English than American. Its political models, its educational systems, its cuisine, its clothes and customs seem to be green coloured versions of whatever is in Britain.

Having lived in the UK for a while I can say this is not true. The Irish educational system is far different (and better IMO) than that of the UK.
Our (Irish) customs and people are far different too. Our work practices are different. Our manners and the way in which we treat others, our openness and friendliness are all far better than in the UK.

Only 2 weeks ago a Greek friend of mine was in Galway (with my gf and a gang of Dublin girls) and remarked how Irish people were far more open and friendly than the English (she lives in Cambridge, as do I). Ireland and the people of Ireland are far different, yes we have a few post-colonial systems that resemble British systems but even our courts are losing the wigs and gowns soon

As for being a US state, no way, Irish customer service is really, really crap and whatever we might think we do not have the same level of fanatical pride in our country as Americans do, nor do we always think we are right! We begrudge the success of others, unlike Americans, we have strong public sector unions, unlike the US. We have a good welfare system, unlike the US...

For every similarity there are probably two or three differences.

Esel

IMO, Israel is the 51st state. Nice company we'd be in!

FillSpectre

People in Ireland seem to think we are living the american dream and this is destroying our culture.
Nonsense, first off America is huge and has many cultures both ethnic and location based

Secondly we have social welfare. THe difference this makes is massive.

To use David McWilliams as a refence is hillarious. He didn't coin the phrase "Celtic Tiger" yet people think he did. He is a media opinion person. I wouldn't trust Joe Duffy to tell me what the world is like why would I trust McWilliams who does the same ****e on TV?

thebaz

FillSpectre wrote:

People in Ireland seem to think we are living the american dream and this is destroying our culture.
Nonsense, first off America is huge and has many cultures both ethnic and location based

Secondly we have social welfare. THe difference this makes is massive.

To use David McWilliams as a refence is hillarious. He didn't coin the phrase "Celtic Tiger" yet people think he did. He is a media opinion person. I wouldn't trust Joe Duffy to tell me what the world is like why would I trust McWilliams who does the same ****e on TV?

Don't know if he did or did not coint the phrase , but he is a respected economist , and best selling author and social commentator on the Ireland of today - so i do think his views can be referenced -- he is not the first social commentator to notice this trend of Americanisation -- Mary Harney stated we are closer to Boston than Berlin a few years ago -- about once a month the Irish Times document this transformation -- whether its Starbucks, Dundrum etc etc .