Credit Card Incident

the_syco · 10-05-2006 03:03AM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

it hink theres a difference between someone slipping you false fivers, and someone having the ability to remove money from your bank account.

And she only copped on now? That anyone that she hands her cc to can defruad her?

Oh, and if someone did charge her for something... say a bottle of coke, a pack of Carrolls, and €30 cashback, and then forged the signature from the previous reciept... wouldn't that be hard for the person to say "I didn't do that"?

=-=

Oh, and for the record, I use a 3v cc. I'm paranoid, cos some of the sites I buy off/plan to buy off are dodgy.

luckat · 10-05-2006 09:12AM

I honestly don't see what this woman did wrong. She's just horrified to realise that her details will be stored on the machine after her credit card has been used.

And surely she's right to be horrified? Shouldn't the transaction go through and be wiped, and the details only be kept in the credit card's own company, if it's to be a secure transaction?

She's not saying anything bad about the OP or his petrol station, just about the way the credit card transaction works.

As for the business about the oil - well, that was just rudeness on both sides. The customer was rude to make a "what an idiot - of course!" expression when asked was it engine oil; the OP was rude not to just take the oil can and bin it. And it would probably be sensible to have said "We do home heating oil and engine oil, which one are you after?"

We all have bad days. Put it behind you.

WhiteWashMan · 10-05-2006 09:43AM

Stekelly wrote:

Nope

so you shout at some woman who is not knowledgable about the ways of the credit card, and yet you admit you dont know everything about them.

kinda makes your opinion redundent really.

i mean, if youre not an expert, why should i listen to you. just sounds like youre having a rant really.

rant away.

Funk you wrote:

At the end of the day when you get ANY card from the bank it comes with a booklet(or at least all the ones i've gotten have) and this booklet explains everything about the card. She should have taken the time to read it cover to cover or she shouldn't have been using the card. If any money is charged to or taken from your a/c it'll be on your statement.

When you get the statement at the end of the month and see that something is wrongfully charged/taken from the a/c you contact the bank and dispute it. If you havn't entered a pin or signed for it : case closed, you get your money.

When you give out any card information(numbers/pin/security code/anything) you are taking a risk which is mentioned in the booklet you receive. Also when you're applying for the card you get the terms & conditions which you are asked to read.

This woman has been given all the information and it seems just wasn't arsed reading it all. She had to have known full well that all you need is the card no. , expiriry date and on visa/mastercard the security code to make any phone/online purchase and that anyone with this information about her card can also.

It actually mentions in the booklet i got with my cc not to let it out of your sight when making a transaction and to review your statement when you get it to make sure eveything is ok. Also to always make sure to sign your card and ANY receipt that you have not been asked to enter the pin for.

She didn't educate herself about her card and got indignant and acted surprised at how the card can function. She IS an idiot. It IS her over-reacting. She IS an idiot.

If she wants the card maybe she should spend 15-20 minutes educating herself with the information that was actually POSTED RIGHT TO HER DOOR.

does it say that people who swipe your card can go back and take money from your card?

because i was always warned about people who swipe your card twice etc to take money. in fact, you even mention it in your post. but that isnt what is being talked about here.

in fact, everyone seems to think that the woman is upset to learn that credit card fruad exists. i dont see that either. i see someone who is upset to learn that if someone swipes your card, they can go back and take money at a later time.

personally, i also didnt know that. i thought that they card had to be swiped and then a secure connection to the bank was made and pins were entered and all that good stuff.
obviously that doesnt count for signing the reciept, but then again, thats why i thought you made sure that they didnt swipe your card twice.
have a look back over your information and let us know if it does indeed say that retailers can take money from your credit card at a later date, id be very interested to know.

placebo wrote:

what a stupid bitch.
Absolute illiterate to todays technology, CC frauds are easily caught.

WHAT!?

you need to be employed by credit companies now!!!!!!!

with your intimate knowledge of the credit card and fraud world, you should be able to put a complete stop to the estimated 500m GPB that was stolen in the UK in 2004.

those guys obviously have no clue what they are doing! please, stupid people like this woman need your help now!

Sam Vimes · 10-05-2006 09:49AM

luckat wrote:

I honestly don't see what this woman did wrong. She's just horrified to realise that her details will be stored on the machine after her credit card has been used.

they're not stored on the machine. they're stored on the signed copy of the receipt

WhiteWashMan · 10-05-2006 09:50AM

the_syco wrote:

And she only copped on now? That anyone that she hands her cc to can defruad her?

im going to say this one more time for the terminally slow people that post here.

the woman was upset because she was unaware that someone could go back and take money after a physical electrionic transaction has taken place, and without her authorisation. ie, the pin part of the chip.

god i wish people here would actually take the time to sit and think before they post.

whizzbang · 10-05-2006 09:53AM

The Doktor wrote:

pin me arse.. dont know how many times ive been asked to sign the reciept cos the pin entering bit of the machine is broken or somthing. Or ive seen people say, "I cant remember my pin.. can i sign".. and never once seen an assistant check the sig against the card...

sometimes they check http://www.zug.com/pranks/credit_card/

WhiteWashMan · 10-05-2006 09:56AM

Commander Vimes wrote:

they're not stored on the machine. they're stored on the signed copy of the receipt

so im confused...

if the number comes up as xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx1234, how do you re-enter the details?

BigCon · 10-05-2006 09:59AM

The op said that the customer's reciept shows 1234 1234 1234 xxxx, while the store's copy shows the full number 1234 1234 1234 1234.

luckat · 10-05-2006 10:06AM

Ah, the store receipt, of course.

(Though a local takeaway told me that people in suits came in to "check their credit card machine for Visa". They said fine, but they'd just have to ring Visa to get the OK on this, and the people scarpered.... Gardaí became involved...)

Guy:Incognito · 10-05-2006 10:35AM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

im going to say this one more time for the terminally slow people that post here.

the woman was upset because she was unaware that someone could go back and take money after a physical electrionic transaction has taken place, and without her authorisation. ie, the pin part of the chip.

god i wish people here would actually take the time to sit and think before they post.

I'll explain it to you seeing as you obviously fall into this terminally slow catagory. All this was explained to her in the laflet she got. Plus the fact that if she had security concerns (i'd be very surprised if a woman like that had'nt had any sort of incling before) she has the whoel internet to do research on, or she could have asked the bank ( maybe sat down for a lenghty chat with teh manager as you suggested) or watched tv. I find it very hard to believe that someone who has a credit card is so cut off from the rest of the world as to be pretty much unaware of cc fraud.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

so im confused...

if the number comes up as xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx1234, how do you re-enter the details?

Are you just acting or do you genuinly not realise how it works? the one the shop prints off for its records has all the info. (see how I managed to restrain myself from using the word stupid, it wasnt easy)

BigCon · 10-05-2006 10:48AM

Have to say I never knew that a shop, petrol station etc had your full cc no. on their copy of the reciept - I thought that once it went through the machine that they only got the same reciept that you got (i.e. 1234 1234 1234 xxxx).
Sounds a bit unsafe to me...

WhiteWashMan · 10-05-2006 11:29AM

Stekelly wrote:

. I find it very hard to believe that someone who has a credit card is so cut off from the rest of the world as to be pretty much unaware of cc fraud.

its not about credit card fraud. do you want me to say it again?

i mean, maybe im not making myself clear here. which part are you not picking up on?

its about not knowing that a shop keeps your details and can debit funds which you havent authorised at a later date.

Stekelly wrote:

Are you just acting or do you genuinly not realise how it works? the one the shop prints off for its records has all the info. (see how I managed to restrain myself from using the word stupid, it wasnt easy)

no, i didnt realise the shop part has my full number on it.

why would i?
i dont work in a shop. i dont see the shop receipt. i would assume that there is a direct secure connection to a bank or whatever that does the transaction, credits shop, debits customer.

is that so outrageous to believe.

why would a shop need to keep my details, when they can go back to the bank if there is some sort of fraud issue?

Stekelly wrote:

I'll explain it to you seeing as you obviously fall into this terminally slow catagory.

oh god. *yawny mcyawn from yawn land*

youve already claimed you dont know everything about credit cards, and yet you damn someone else for not knowing stuff about it.

youre a hypocrit and you dont even realise it. stop trolling and get on with it.

Sgt. Politeness · 10-05-2006 12:35PM

fightin irish wrote:

But i tell ya, I'd be rightly pissed at someone going to the press etc with a biddy story like this one:rolleyes:

lol yeah, what next:
stop press!! young boy in overcharged 5 cent for fizzy cola bottle shocker

Guy:Incognito · 10-05-2006 01:02PM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

its not about credit card fraud. do you want me to say it again?

i mean, maybe im not making myself clear here. which part are you not picking up on?

its about not knowing that a shop keeps your details and can debit funds which you havent authorised at a later date..

Thats called fraud.

BigCon wrote:

Have to say I never knew that a shop, petrol station etc had your full cc no. on their copy of the reciept - I thought that once it went through the machine that they only got the same reciept that you got (i.e. 1234 1234 1234 xxxx).
Sounds a bit unsafe to me...

It's no more unsafe than giving them your card in the first place.

Placebo · 10-05-2006 01:14PM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

WHAT!?

you need to be employed by credit companies now!!!!!!!

with your intimate knowledge of the credit card and fraud world, you should be able to put a complete stop to the estimated 500m GPB that was stolen in the UK in 2004.

those guys obviously have no clue what they are doing! please, stupid people like this woman need your help now!

Any transaction made these days can be pin pointed exactly where it was made from,
cc companys now have anti fraud protection on cards aswell, tough luck if your CARD got stolen and someone used it on an ATM

Duff Man Jr. · 10-05-2006 01:19PM

The reason a retailers receipt has all the digits is because if someone was charged 50 a month ago and later wanted to see the recipt for it - if the reciept had ****-****-****-1234 they could say it has the same last 4 digits but its not my card.
With all digits there is no doubt as to whos card it is.

WhiteWashMan · 10-05-2006 01:50PM

Duff Man Jr. wrote:

The reason a retailers receipt has all the digits is because if someone was charged 50 a month ago and later wanted to see the recipt for it - if the reciept had ****-****-****-1234 they could say it has the same last 4 digits but its not my card.
With all digits there is no doubt as to whos card it is.

i would assume that whoever validates the transaction on the other side of the line (bank, holding house, visa, whoever) would be able to just call up the transaction ID and then you can see exactly what the card number etc was, where it was used etc etc etc.

after all, if someone comes back and calls fraud at a retailer, im quite sure that the visa company would be involved in it the investigation.

placebo wrote:

Any transaction made these days can be pin pointed exactly where it was made from,
cc companys now have anti fraud protection on cards aswell, tough luck if your CARD got stolen and someone used it on an ATM

very true, but of course nothing to do with this conversation....

have you applied for the job yet? i hear they are desperate to figure out how to combat it.

Stekelly wrote:

Thats called fraud.

hmmm, wait til i just scroll back and read where i said that. but thanks for reminding me.
i wonder if you will ever get around to actually reading anything i say instead of just trying to insult me and troll this thread.

delly · 10-05-2006 02:01PM

Sure of course you can use credit cards without needing the pin entered, how else would you be able to buy online, book hotels or rent cars. All of which don't need the pin entered and can be used in 'offline' mode?

/EDIT oh and in relation to the retailers slip having the full number, the onus is on the retailer to retain the slips for a 12 month period to prove the transactions occurred, and as another reason credit card terminals can drop there program and fail before the days transactions are batched to the bank. If this occurs, the retailer can rekey these transactions in offline mode using the auth codes from the previous reciepts.

Lump · 10-05-2006 02:11PM

*Note To Self *Don't get in a discussion with WhiteWashMan, he's got too much knowledge/sensible arguments, and too much time to form and type them. If in doubt, call him a name and log off. */Note to Self*

WhiteWashMan · 10-05-2006 02:29PM

delly wrote:

Sure of course you can use credit cards without needing the pin entered, how else would you be able to buy online, book hotels or rent cars. All of which don't need the pin entered and can be used in 'offline' mode?
.

yes, we all know about that. my local chinese doesnt need a pin or a signature to get stuff ordered.

but thats not the point thats being discussed here. rather the point that retialers have the ability to go back and enter in things after your 'authorised' transaction has been completed.
for me the retailer is just a point in between you and your visa company, and as far as i was aware, there was a secure connection between the two. i was not aware that there were ways to make transactions happen afterwards, because, as i said, once you have completed the transaction, why would there be any need for the retailer to retain those details.

does this make any sense to anyone other than me here?

delly wrote:

/EDIT oh and in relation to the retailers slip having the full number, the onus is on the retailer to retain the slips for a 12 month period to prove the transactions occurred, and as another reason credit card terminals can drop there program and fail before the days transactions are batched to the bank. If this occurs, the retailer can rekey these transactions in offline mode using the auth codes from the previous reciepts.

now that makes sense to me. and i can see why that may happen, i would still think the onus is on the credit card company to ensure this happens and not the retailer. after all, if you cant get through to cred card company, you cant complete the transaction. at that stage, bring out the old swish swish contraption of the 80s!
and again, transaction IDs from successful transactions will stil be in the slips as proof, so i dont know why you would actually need to have the full credit card number on there. but then again, it wont have the security number, but there you go.

Angels · 10-05-2006 02:58PM

Duff man jr. it seems to me that she has a huge attitude problem & that she has to be the most arrogant person going.

Sur god love ya if it wasn't you twas going to be someone else that was going to get it from her that day.

She went completely over the top going to the local newspaper about it, was her photo printed?? she only wanted her 5 mins of fame, shes obviously a desperate lady (set in her ways).

I mean she cancelled her card because of this silly person with no life.

Maybe she didn't want people to rob all her millions!!!

delly · 10-05-2006 03:16PM

The auth numbers from the bank are not linked to the actual transaction. When I was installing the older terminals, the auth code would be a six digit number which could be repeated on any other machine, i.e. you couldn't check the auth number on the PC in the banks HQ, it simply means that you successfully obtained one.

I can see your other point about it being a secure transaction, but I'm afraid its not the case, and yes that means that there is a chance for fraud. On the receipt the retailer retains, it will say that the transaction was verified by pin, and its this receipt that will be sought if there is a dispute.

Hugh Hefner · 10-05-2006 03:31PM

ZOMG! We read this article in Business class last week. I'll definitely be telling my teacher about this thread.

Sam Vimes · 10-05-2006 03:42PM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

but thats not the point thats being discussed here. rather the point that retialers have the ability to go back and enter in things after your 'authorised' transaction has been completed.
for me the retailer is just a point in between you and your visa company, and as far as i was aware, there was a secure connection between the two. i was not aware that there were ways to make transactions happen afterwards, because, as i said, once you have completed the transaction, why would there be any need for the retailer to retain those details.

does this make any sense to anyone other than me here?

not necessarily afterwards but they have to be able to do transactions without your card being present. otherwise your chinese couldn't take cards and there'd be no online retailers. once someone has your full number and exp date they can pretty much do whatever they want. the point is that all the customer has to do is look at their statement when it arrives and they'll never be charged wrongly

WhiteWashMan · 10-05-2006 05:41PM

Commander Vimes wrote:

not necessarily afterwards but they have to be able to do transactions without your card being present. otherwise your chinese couldn't take cards and there'd be no online retailers. once someone has your full number and exp date they can pretty much do whatever they want. the point is that all the customer has to do is look at their statement when it arrives and they'll never be charged wrongly

yeah, youre point was made several times and answered several times in this thread already, but thanks for adding your 2c worth...

by the way, looking at your statement does not protect you from fraud. it tells you if its happening...

delly wrote:

The auth numbers from the bank are not linked to the actual transaction. When I was installing the older terminals, the auth code would be a six digit number which could be repeated on any other machine, i.e. you couldn't check the auth number on the PC in the banks HQ, it simply means that you successfully obtained one.

I can see your other point about it being a secure transaction, but I'm afraid its not the case, and yes that means that there is a chance for fraud. On the receipt the retailer retains, it will say that the transaction was verified by pin, and its this receipt that will be sought if there is a dispute.

now i just happen to have no cc receipts on me today for a change, but i thought there was a seperate transaction id on it?
in other words, it has a unique code for your transaction, this is printed on oyur receipt and i guess used at the other end to credit the reatiler (and no doubt remove a small % as fee)

but thanks for some actual useful factual information other than 'OMFG THAT WOMAN SI A CNUT!!!!!!'

like i said, i presume these things are pretty much secure. i am aware of the usual fruad bits and bobs that go on, and i keep myself fairly protected, but you cant 100% protect yourself.
the fact that someone can actually go back afterwards and just help themselves to your cc is news to me.

but its 'a bit oirish' to shout down someone in that manner, isnt it

funk-you · 11-05-2006 02:11AM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

does it say that people who swipe your card can go back and take money from your card?

because i was always warned about people who swipe your card twice etc to take money. in fact, you even mention it in your post. but that isnt what is being talked about here.

in fact, everyone seems to think that the woman is upset to learn that credit card fruad exists. i dont see that either. i see someone who is upset to learn that if someone swipes your card, they can go back and take money at a later time.

personally, i also didnt know that. i thought that they card had to be swiped and then a secure connection to the bank was made and pins were entered and all that good stuff.
obviously that doesnt count for signing the reciept, but then again, thats why i thought you made sure that they didnt swipe your card twice.
have a look back over your information and let us know if it does indeed say that retailers can take money from your credit card at a later date, id be very interested to know.

No it doesn't BUT it does say that all someone needs is you card number and expiry date which are on their system(and the front of the card which you hand to them) when you swipe it. 2+2 maybe? We may be in a nanny state but if someone needs that much spoon feeding they aren't responsible enough to own/use such a card. All the information is there and she didn't research it like she should if she is going to trust all her financial security to a piece of plastic. Actually if she needed that much spoonfeeding maybe we should have someone follow her around with toilet roll because no one explained to her EXACTLY how to wipe her own ass.

-Funk

Credit Card Incident

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