Credit Card Incident

Duff Man Jr.

I work part time in a Petrol Station in Limerick, when there was a alteracation between me and a customer, today i heard it was in the paper and found this on the web. I would like to know peoples views on the whole Incident. A long post but bear with me.

First my side,
The station has no shop just a window for people to pay, a woman was filling her car and asked me if we do oil, I asked if she ment Engine oil as we also sell a lot of home heating oil. She replied with a attuide as if to say are you stupid of course engine oil.

She got €49 worth of petrol and came over and handed me her card, she took the oil and said she would put it in while the card was going through. She came back and handed me the empty litre without saying anything, i told her there was a bin on the forecourt behind her. She seemed pretty thick at this.

Then i charged her €44.80 instead of €54.80, she came back to me and i sincearly apoligsed and thanked her for pointing it out, so i said i'll put the €10 through from the receipt because it was raining and there was no need for her to get wet. Well she lost her nut and pratically blamed me for every Credit card fraud ever, She turned to a man behind her and told him not to give me a card cause its not safe with me. I tried to tell her that any shop/restraunt/pub etc.... could charge her card from the receipt. She gave me a tenner and stormed off. My boss met the man behind her later and he agreed that there was no need for it!!!!!!!



THE honesty of one customer in a ***** petrol station has sparked off security doubts over the recently introduced Chip and Pin system. Despite crowing about the added security of the system, banks have been left red-faced by a claim from a Limerick consumer that retailers can access bank accounts without the permission, signature or PIN of the card owner. (Noone mentioned bank A/C's, retailers can't access them)

***** ***** from ***** was dismayed at an incident which occurred at a petrol station in ****** on April 19. Ms ***** returned to the cash register when she discovered that she had been undercharged for her transaction and pointed out the discrepancy.

The assistant responded by saying that this wasn’t a problem as the amount could be deducted from her account at a later time, as her bank details would be stored on their machine. (I never mentioned her a/c or machine, i said from the receipt and i wasn't that casual about it.)

Ms ***** was horrified that her account could be accessed without her permission. (No it Can't.)

She contacted her credit card company after the incident but could not get answers to her questions, she claims.

On ringing her bank the following morning she was told that procedures were in place to stop outlets accessing account information without the direct permission of the account holder but that such incidences did still occur.

Ms ***** told the Limerick Post that she had now cancelled her Laser card and would pay in cash in the future.

"Banks are not highlighting the pitfalls of the Chip and Pin system,” she said, "When you receive your credit card receipt all the digits bar the last four are shown. However the retailer retains all your details and can access them,” Ms ***** continued. (Consumer receipt has last four digits, Retailer receipt has all digits and exp. date. No other details)

She feels that the public should be better informed about where they stand.

"A lot of people would no longer be using their bank cards if they thought that someone could access their accounts at a later date. People are under the impression that it is the person behind them that they have to look out for and not the retailer themselves.”

**** ****** of the Consumers Association of Ireland told the Limerick Post that the reason retailers can bypass the PIN number is to facilitate credit card transactions that take place over the phone or online. However he says that more should be done to ensure that retailers cannot abuse customers’ accounts.

When asked what customers can do to better protect themselves, Mr ***** said that the best they can do is to try to deal with reputable retailers and hope that everyone is as honourable as they are themselves.

Macker

Seems to me like she has reason to be concerned ,people throw away recipts all the time ,imagine she went back a month later after reciveing her statment ,would she have a hope of recovering the money

RuggieBear

she's a moron but in a customer facing role you have to be very careful to explain exactly the how and the why of what you are doing.

dingding

Did the banks change the system that you have to put in the pin.

secret_squirrel

Relax dude its not your fault that

a) the woman is an idiot
b) she took your comments the wrong way.
c) she decided to go on a crusade for truth justice and the irish way.
d) She shouldnt be allowed out on her own.
e) She strikes me as the sort of person who requires "Contents may be hot" warnings on their food or drink.

Like most banking systems there is an element of trust involved. Even with cash you are trusting that the retail hasnt got a pile of forged fivers under the counter.

Its also not your fault that the local Rag was having a quiet news day.

GerardKeating

Macker wrote:

Seems to me like she has reason to be concerned ,people throw away recipts all the time ,imagine she went back a month later after reciveing her statment ,would she have a hope of recovering the money

When a customer queries a transaction, the Merchant has to produce the receipt, if they do not have a PIN verified receipt for the transaction, the lose the money and the customer get re-emburshed.

The ability to PAN key credit card treansaction still exists, for merchants to do mail order or telephone order transaction, but the merchant assumes more risk, since they are easily disowned by the card holder.

Hagar

Sometimes it just doesn't pay to take shortcuts to help people.
In my experience it always comes back to bite you in the arse.
You are generally better off doing thing the long, but more correct, way with a smile.
The attitude she took with the oil should have set off your "Biddy Alarm".
Better luck next time.

kermitdfrog

EDITED AFTER HOMAH'S WELL MADE POINT. Does she not realise that everytime she hands over her card she's taking a risk? All anyone has to do is write down her number and expiry and ccv and they can use it online or over the phone. Online transactions make up a much smaller proportion of CC fraud than over the counter transactions, yet she flips out now? This is why people should keep a constant eye on their accounts online, so they'll see if something goes wrong as soon as possible, cos as much as you can protect yourself there's no guarantees.

EDIT: Oh, and you should have nipped her attitude in the bud when the oil thing happened. I love dealing with people like that, cos I make them see what an ass their being and they shut up in embarassment.

pclancy

You did nothing wrong man. Neither did the credit card co or your outlet. Standard procedure the whole way, Ive had similar instances where wrong amounts been put in and people have said "tougth ****" and walked out then freaked when they've been charged.

Her attitude stinks too.

DOLEMAN

She kind of has a point though. I thought the whole point of the chip and pin thing was that no money can be taken from the card unless the pin is entered? If I understand correctly, you were going to be able to take extra money from her card without needing the pin?

I don't think you did anything wrong (you were trying to be helpful) but I think she has a point...

homah_7ft

I would recommend people be somewhat wary of their descriptions of the complainant. It is clear she is named specifically in the news story and could very easily be linked to this thread.

Duff Man Jr.

secret_squirrel wrote:

Relax dude its not your fault that

a) the woman is an idiot
b) she took your comments the wrong way.
c) she decided to go on a crusade for truth justice and the irish way.
d) She shouldnt be allowed out on her own.
e) She strikes me as the sort of person who requires "Contents may be hot" warnings on their food or drink.

Like most banking systems there is an element of trust involved. Even with cash you are trusting that the retail hasnt got a pile of forged fivers under the counter.

Its also not your fault that the local Rag was having a quiet news day.

Lol and thanks everyone for the comments

kermitdfrog

DOLEMAN wrote:

She kind of has a point though. I thought the whole point of the chip and pin thing was that no money can be taken from the card unless the pin is entered? If I understand correctly, you were going to be able to take extra money from her card without needing the pin?

I don't think you did anything wrong (you were trying to be helpful) but I think she has a point...

You dont use your pin online, do you? Or over the phone?

Duff Man Jr.

homah_7ft wrote:

I would recommend people be somewhat wary of their descriptions of the complainant. It is clear she is named specifically in the news story and could very easily be linked to this thread.

I Blocked out all names in the OP if the story is linked to this thread its not my problem. She realsed the story into the public domain and in doning so leavesd it open for dissusion in places like this.

I am not named in the news artical but it could also be easily be linked to me.

Jenny_H

I can't see what her problem is - if you book a hotel or hire a car, etc they will always swipe your card and additional charges can be applied after you sign off on the final bill.

However, I don't understand why you have to come on here and look for other peoples' views as there are 2 sides to every story and probably after reading your message and the article we are still only hearing some of what actually happened.

Overall, I'd say to you forget about it - learn from it and to Miss Credit Card she needs to learn about T&C for using her card.

fightin irish

DOLEMAN wrote:

She kind of has a point though. I thought the whole point of the chip and pin thing was that no money can be taken from the card unless the pin is entered? If I understand correctly, you were going to be able to take extra money from her card without needing the pin?

...

I think the may reason for chip and pin is to stop stolen cc's being used by the thief etc...i.e.. nick a purse/bag etc and then buy whatever ever one wants on a forged signature, so the pin replaces the signature.

I had a German dude in with me recently and he nearlY died when i asked him to enter his pin...He never heard of the system..Its only exists in Ireland and the UK(i could be wrong) So i just did the old fashioned way which is quite normal to do in my experience because of above.

@ OP...The woman sounds like a right 'ol biddy (as someone mentioned), D'ont worry about it man, I've worked in the retail/services sector for 15 years and one thing i've learned is no good turn goes unpunished.(not excatly the scenario in your case).
And i'm sorry to say it but again in my experience it's usually middle aged woman who react like this(pls no offence) Just based on my own experiences.

But i tell ya, I'd be rightly pissed at someone going to the press etc with a biddy story like this one:rolleyes:

The Doktor

pin me arse.. dont know how many times ive been asked to sign the reciept cos the pin entering bit of the machine is broken or somthing. Or ive seen people say, "I cant remember my pin.. can i sign".. and never once seen an assistant check the sig against the card...

parsi

fightin irish wrote:

I had a German dude in with me recently and he nearlY died when i asked him to enter his pin...He never heard of the system..Its only exists in Ireland and the UK(i could be wrong) So i just did the old fashioned way which is quite normal to do in my experience because of above.

It certainly exists in Germany. I saw a German TV programme last year which highlighted the fact that shouldersurfers could get your pin.

fightin irish

parsi wrote:

It certainly exists in Germany. I saw a German TV programme last year which highlighted the fact that shouldersurfers could get your pin.

Maybe he wasn't German so:D

me and the biz

The Doktor wrote:

pin me arse.. dont know how many times ive been asked to sign the reciept cos the pin entering bit of the machine is broken or somthing. Or ive seen people say, "I cant remember my pin.. can i sign".. and never once seen an assistant check the sig against the card...

That annoys me too, it takes a sec just check the sig.

Not just a UK/Ireland thing, I've been asked to enter my pin over here a few times.

Lump

Macker wrote:

Seems to me like she has reason to be concerned ,people throw away recipts all the time ,imagine she went back a month later after reciveing her statment ,would she have a hope of recovering the money

She would have every right to claim the money, it it was fraduently taken from the account, even if she disposed of the receipt.

John

TempestSabre

Its no safer than it was before, because if the pin machine is not working (quite often) they go back to using the signature which is no security at all IMO. Then you have over the phone transactions, they ae equally insecure. Nearly every 2nd place you use a cc they try to take it out of your sight to use it, mainly because they have the machine in an awkward place. Which means they have the same problem with every CC customer. But its obviously not such a problem that they've had to move the machine.

WhiteWashMan

Duff Man Jr. wrote:

I work part time in a Petrol Station in Limerick, when there was a alteracation between me and a customer, today i heard it was in the paper and found this on the web. I would like to know peoples views on the whole Incident. A long post but bear with me.

First my side,
The station has no shop just a window for people to pay, a woman was filling her car and asked me if we do oil, I asked if she ment Engine oil as we also sell a lot of home heating oil. She replied with a attuide as if to say are you stupid of course engine oil.

She got €49 worth of petrol and came over and handed me her card, she took the oil and said she would put it in while the card was going through. She came back and handed me the empty litre without saying anything, i told her there was a bin on the forecourt behind her. She seemed pretty thick at this.

Then i charged her €44.80 instead of €54.80, she came back to me and i sincearly apoligsed and thanked her for pointing it out, so i said i'll put the €10 through from the receipt because it was raining and there was no need for her to get wet. Well she lost her nut and pratically blamed me for every Credit card fraud ever, She turned to a man behind her and told him not to give me a card cause its not safe with me. I tried to tell her that any shop/restraunt/pub etc.... could charge her card from the receipt. She gave me a tenner and stormed off. My boss met the man behind her later and he agreed that there was no need for it!!!!!!!



THE honesty of one customer in a ***** petrol station has sparked off security doubts over the recently introduced Chip and Pin system. Despite crowing about the added security of the system, banks have been left red-faced by a claim from a Limerick consumer that retailers can access bank accounts without the permission, signature or PIN of the card owner. (Noone mentioned bank A/C's, retailers can't access them)

***** ***** from ***** was dismayed at an incident which occurred at a petrol station in ****** on April 19. Ms ***** returned to the cash register when she discovered that she had been undercharged for her transaction and pointed out the discrepancy.

The assistant responded by saying that this wasn’t a problem as the amount could be deducted from her account at a later time, as her bank details would be stored on their machine. (I never mentioned her a/c or machine, i said from the receipt and i wasn't that casual about it.)

Ms ***** was horrified that her account could be accessed without her permission. (No it Can't.)

She contacted her credit card company after the incident but could not get answers to her questions, she claims.

On ringing her bank the following morning she was told that procedures were in place to stop outlets accessing account information without the direct permission of the account holder but that such incidences did still occur.

Ms ***** told the Limerick Post that she had now cancelled her Laser card and would pay in cash in the future.

"Banks are not highlighting the pitfalls of the Chip and Pin system,” she said, "When you receive your credit card receipt all the digits bar the last four are shown. However the retailer retains all your details and can access them,” Ms ***** continued. (Consumer receipt has last four digits, Retailer receipt has all digits and exp. date. No other details)

She feels that the public should be better informed about where they stand.

"A lot of people would no longer be using their bank cards if they thought that someone could access their accounts at a later date. People are under the impression that it is the person behind them that they have to look out for and not the retailer themselves.”

**** ****** of the Consumers Association of Ireland told the Limerick Post that the reason retailers can bypass the PIN number is to facilitate credit card transactions that take place over the phone or online. However he says that more should be done to ensure that retailers cannot abuse customers’ accounts.

When asked what customers can do to better protect themselves, Mr ***** said that the best they can do is to try to deal with reputable retailers and hope that everyone is as honourable as they are themselves.

2 things.

im not sure why people keep jumping to the defence of the OP.
noone said anything about him.

secondly, id be bloody worried about people being able to remove money from my account without my permission.

i think the young lady has a point.

bounty

typical paranoid aul one, visa cards are always open to fraud by a cashier copying the numbers, and banks know this, that newspaper article was oldnews

anyway, theres insurance built into visa cards, that covers any fraudulent transactions, once your card was in debit

WhiteWashMan

secret_squirrel wrote:

a) the woman is an idiot.

what? for being worried that someone can remove money from her account without her permission?

secret_squirrel wrote:

b) she took your comments the wrong way..

and?

secret_squirrel wrote:

c) she decided to go on a crusade for truth justice and the irish way..

you mean wanting to find out if money could be removed from her account without permission.
yeah, how stupid of her. what a cnut!

secret_squirrel wrote:

d) She shouldnt be allowed out on her own..

why? what proof do you have of that?

secret_squirrel wrote:

e) She strikes me as the sort of person who requires "Contents may be hot" warnings on their food or drink..

why? are you saying shes stupid?

secret_squirrel wrote:

Like most banking systems there is an element of trust involved. Even with cash you are trusting that the retail hasnt got a pile of forged fivers under the counter..

it hink theres a difference between someone slipping you false fivers, and someone having the ability to remove money from your bank account.

secret_squirrel wrote:

Its also not your fault that the local Rag was having a quiet news day.

isnt that what local rags do? tell local news?

come to think of it, none of your points really make any sense. try and think before you post in future yeah?

The Sweeper

Chip and pin is designed to stop thieves using your bank cards in face to face transactions.

You can still use your card without its pin number over the internet and when ordering, for instance, a home delivery chinese takeaway. In order to prevent fraud in phone and internet transactions, more and more websites and restaurants will ask you for your security code - the three-digit number at the end of the list of numbers on the signature strip on the back of your card.

Inotherwords, it's still possible to commit card fraud if you have the sixteen-digit number on the card, the full name and the expiry date.

Most decent card machine receipts star out 12 of the 16 card numbers specifically to prevent people fraudulently doing the sort of thing the OP unwisely offered to do as a favour, i.e. process another transaction against your card using the printed information on the receipt.

What it really boils down to is whether or not you trust the retailer to whom you've offered your card.

...and if you don't, then why are you giving them your card in the first place?

bounty

yea Minesajackdaniels is right, this woman's crusade just shows her ignorance of the visa system (its always been this way), and how the local rag will print any old scare story

TempestSabre

I used to wonder how they put through tips when paying for meals, and was told the retailer can just put it through afterwards.

Same rule applies as always. Check your reciepts against your statement. Always check anything unknown on it.

Debbio69

If I was that woman, yes i would of pointed out the mistake, you could get into trouble if your till was short but there was no need for her actions afterward.

i think alot of Irish people hav the attitude of ''well i can be as rude as i like because this person is serving me''


The customer is never right!!!! :eek:


Those people who have nothing better to do, than to complain and threaten shop assistants with Joe Duffy need their heads banged together

secret_squirrel

WhiteWashMan wrote:

come to think of it, none of your points really make any sense. try and think before you post in future yeah?

Couldnt have said it better myself Mr Pot.

Tell me do you go trolling when there's not enough modding to do?

Im tempted to refute your comments but most of us realise its futile when you're in this kind of mood. /Ignore tbh.

Guy:Incognito

me and the biz wrote:

That annoys me too, it takes a sec just check the sig.

Not just a UK/Ireland thing, I've been asked to enter my pin over here a few times.

The signature is th emost insecure method possible. Any half-wit that has your card, a pen and bit of paper for 5 mins could have your signature reasonably right.

I've had a lot of spanish people in that have a picture embossed on the back of the card. That, together with chip and pin would be reasonably secure.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

2 things.

im not sure why people keep jumping to the defence of the OP.
noone said anything about him.

secondly, id be bloody worried about people being able to remove money from my account without my permission.

i think the young lady has a point.

Anyone with access to your cc for 10 seconds could rub an imprint into a piece of paper with a pencil, he could have done it on the sly if he wanted to steal, but he didnt he told the customer what he was doing.

jor el

This seems like over reaction on the woman's part. If a retailer decides to start taking extra money from people's cards then they leave themselves open to fraud investigations. All people need to do is check their statement when it arrives. If you saw two transactions in the one shop on the same day that would probably stand out as odd. You can then query this with the bank and they will investigate. It could have been a simple mistake, or fraud by the retailer, but either way the customer is protected.

The full story can be seen on the limerickpost.ie website. This is also a badly written article as it refers to a Laser card as a credit card, which it isn't, and isn't covered by the same insurances as a credit card, as far as I know. I'm sure though that a retailer issuing false debits to a Laser card would find themselves in hot water if they couldn't prove that you authorised it.

She contacted her credit card company after the incident but could not get answers to her questions, she claims.
She told the Limerick Post that she had now cancelled her Laser card and would pay in cash in the future.

So she discovered that retailers have the ability to charge her card and decided to cancel it. This is the knee-jerk reaction of an idiot if there ever was one. As has been mentioned, online and over the phone retailers do this all the time, and have been doing so for years. Hell, if you go to the self-service till in Tesco you just swipe your card and don't sign anything. Seems to me either the woman, or the Limerick Post, (or both) haven't a clue what they're on about.

Despite crowing about the added security of the system, banks have been left red-faced by a claim from a Limerick consumer that retailers can access bank accounts without the permission, signature or PIN of the card owner.

This is just bollox. The retailers have no access to peoples bank accounts, but they can issue charges to a customers card. If the customer queries the charge then the retailer will be asked to produce a PIN or signature verified receipt for the transaction. Failure to do so will result in the transaction being reversed, multiple queries to any particular retailer can result in credit/debit card facilities being removed and possibly Garda investigations if fraud is suspected.

astrofool

As has been noted, and as is the way all over the world, charges can be made to the account with the 16 numbers + expiry, BUT unless the person who took the payment has proof of it being authorised (via signature, or pin) then they can lose the payment.

This is the reason why making orders on the internet can be such a pain when people have to fax through ID to prove who they are. Verified by VISA is a new system being implemented online, which basically gives each card a password, and like chip and pin, the password is the card owners responsibility.

Now, this does not stop any website in the world from taking thousands of euro from anyone, but if that person has a confirmation order for say €50, then the credit card company will know the larger amount was fraudulent (the importance of keeping receipts for at least a month shown here).

It seems to me that alot of the people here should go out and learn about their credit cards before taking the risk of using them again.

Also, to the OP, when it comes to handling credit cards, ALWAYS use the physical card, its just the proper way to do it. Of course using the receipt is a short cut, but that is not the procedure, and causes problems like this. If the woman refused to sign the new receipt, created without the card, then the shop would legally lose the money, by using the card and swiping it, it is then the person's responsibility to sign it, or the shop can ring the cops about non-payment.

All shops should be using chip and pin solely now, if a card is fraudulent and they didn't use chip/pin, then the shop has no legal comeback. Chip and pin can be bypassed by anyone, if I remember right, a default auth code could be used, but as I said, this is at risk to the shop that the payment won't be disputed (shop videotapes can also play a role here).

It's also the reason shops have limits on cashback on laser, as the cashback is not guaranteed by the card issuer, only the sale amount. The retailer provides the service at risk in order to attract customers.

Tips can be taken after a meal, because the holder has signed that the tips can be taken off. Of course it doesn't use chip+pin, so the person could claim a forgery, but few judges would believe it.

[edit]and WWM, what was 1) the point of quoting the whole passage, when everyone can read it on the front page and 2) dividing secret_squirrels post into mini quotes without actually making any points how the hell does "and?" prove a point wrong and the "contents may be hot" meant he/she did imply that the person was stupid, and you could at least show otherwise. At the very least its been established that she doesn't know how the credit card system works, it's not a far reach to imply its because she's stupid and can't understand after, i'm sure, countless people have explained it to her before getting as far as the local rag. 3) grrrr![/edit]

Guy:Incognito

WhiteWashMan wrote:

it hink theres a difference between someone slipping you false fivers, and someone having the ability to remove money from your bank account.

If you can explain how someone can take money out of your account using your cc details, I'm all ears. Im sure the bank would be interested too.

jimmycrackcorm

I would have told that woman not to order pizza from Dominos either as they will takeyour card number over the phone - no pin required!

Fact is that the retailer is liable for the fraud where pin is not used not the card holder.

subway

we used to manually enter numbers all the time,
particualrly when a card was unreadable.

never did it w/o a sig tho,
fair enough the woman over reacted to the idea that her card number + exp date was enough info to process the transaction - has she never bought online / over the phone?
but the retailer should always get the receipt signed / pin entered

WhiteWashMan

secret_squirrel wrote:

Couldnt have said it better myself Mr Pot.

Tell me do you go trolling when there's not enough modding to do?

Im tempted to refute your comments but most of us realise its futile when you're in this kind of mood. /Ignore tbh.

yeah, you cant defend your over the top points and are just wrong. so what.

*yawn*

Stekelly wrote:

If you can explain how someone can take money out of your account using your cc details, I'm all ears. Im sure the bank would be interested too

you tell me. the OP told the woman he could deduct 10 quid from her account by using the receipt on the till.

why dont you ask the OP. after all, that is what the woman was complaining about, yes?

astrofool wrote:

[edit]and WWM, what was 1) the point of quoting the whole passage, when everyone can read it on the front page and 2) dividing secret_squirrels post into mini quotes without actually making any points how the hell does "and?" prove a point wrong and the "contents may be hot" meant he/she did imply that the person was stupid, and you could at least show otherwise. At the very least its been established that she doesn't know how the credit card system works, it's not a far reach to imply its because she's stupid and can't understand after, i'm sure, countless people have explained it to her before getting as far as the local rag. 3) grrrr![/edit]

not understanding the credit card system = stupid?

interesting.

im going to have to say that 'stupid assumptions of people = stupid'

that makes you stupid i guess. right?

stekelly wrote:

Anyone with access to your cc for 10 seconds could rub an imprint into a piece of paper with a pencil, he could have done it on the sly if he wanted to steal, but he didnt he told the customer what he was doing.

did the customer say he was stealing money?

i fail to see anywhere in that entire passage that says the customer attacked the OP over the deduction of money.

everyone else appears to think she does, but i see no proof.
i see her going off on one that money can be deducted at a later point, and i have to agree withthat.
i dont want some fúcker in some esso garage somewhere with the ability to remove money from my account after i have shopped there.

regardless of whether he has taken a rubbing of it or not. i dont see how thats even relative to this conversation.

its amazing how so many people here can damn some woman as stupid etc just because she is concerned about credit card fraud, throw out insults her way, and have a go at her and the local newspaper. pathetic.
slow day on boards.ie is it?

astrofool

Great at ignoring anything that basically answered any of your "points".

The local Esso garage can of course, as has been stated, remove money from your account after you have shopped there with your laser/credit card.

WWM, how about posting something to show she isn't stupid, of course there isn't any, all we know is that she doesn't know about the credit card system, so in that area, yes, she is stupid, like i'd be stupid when it came to being a neuro-surgeon. You also seem to be stupid when it comes to credit cards, on evidence so far (of course you're not stupid in general). But at least stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

And notice the lack of need for quoting people? I'm assuming people aren't too stupid to put together what is being answered, rather than making posts long, drawn out, and unreadable. So, either you think everyone here is stupid, in which case, stop being so arrogant, or you have a short term memory block preventing you from remembering posts without quoting them (btw, it must take a hell of a time in formatting to put it all back together like that and not end up with

being left in because you misssed a "/").

snappieT

I've told customers in Argos this so many times, I might as well say it here.

On Valentines Day this year, the banks decision to remove liability from themselves kicked in. Upto that point, if there was any fraud on CC transactions, the banks would be pay for it. On Valentines Day, they revoked this, with the exception of Chip & Pin, a system they are so confident in that they are willing to take the brunt.
Retailers can take CC transactions whatever way they like, but they now suffer the cost if the card is stolen, cloned etc. Most retailers want to avoid bad debts, so they will either insist on Chip & Pin (no risk to them) or will assemble trust with the customer (many other cards in the same name, photo ID with same name, capability to write down own name [It's scary how many people I've caught out this way])
Dominos etc. can take details over the phone, but they assume trust (and the accompanying risk) in that customer. They always have your address to come over and break your legs if the business goes under because of you anyways.

astrofool

Speaking of which, Shell in England just got stung by a gang who took away the physical CC machine, put in a skimmer, and gave it back (saying they were repairing it). Article here:

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=31547

I'd presume it also caught the pin number entered.

Skyuser

TempestSabre wrote:

Its no safer than it was before, because if the pin machine is not working (quite often) they go back to using the signature which is no security at all IMO. Then you have over the phone transactions, they ae equally insecure. Nearly every 2nd place you use a cc they try to take it out of your sight to use it, mainly because they have the machine in an awkward place. Which means they have the same problem with every CC customer. But its obviously not such a problem that they've had to move the machine.

This is only temporary while they introduce the system. There will be a date in the future set when ONLY pin's will be accepted. No signatures.
This happened in UK a few months back. They now only accept pin's.

Guy:Incognito

WhiteWashMan wrote:

you tell me. the OP told the woman he could deduct 10 quid from her account by using the receipt on the till.

The subject is credit cards. I also asked you to explain how to take money from someones bank account with their credit card details. Hint: You cant.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

not understanding the credit card system = stupid?

interesting.

Blindly jumping into something with large financial implicatiosn without educating yourself first? I'd call that stupid.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

did the customer say he was stealing money?

i fail to see anywhere in that entire passage that says the customer attacked the OP over the deduction of money.

I was replying to your point that was ignorant of the way a credit card works in that you cant use it in any way to get funds from someones bank account. The customer lost the head because he was able to charge without teh card, but failed to notice that he, or anyone lese that has ever held her card could have taken the numbers and charged what they like.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

everyone else appears to think she does, but i see no proof.
i see her going off on one that money can be deducted at a later point, and i have to agree withthat.
i dont want some fúcker in some esso garage somewhere with the ability to remove money from my account after i have shopped there.

What about "some fúcker" in a warehouse in the Jersey where you have just bought a dvd from? (or any other online purchase) Or the person from the cinema you gave your details to over the phone? Why do people think that because they cant see someone theres no problem.?

seamus

While her concerns were valid, they're not exactly new, and her reaction was over-the-top.

Having worked in customer services for years before, it's typical of customers who assume they understand what they're talking about, to first off blow something out of all proportion, and then once they've done that they have difficulty recalling the incidents and conversations with any accuracy, and instead substitute the actual truth with what they they think was said, or assume was said.

Ultimately, it is has been said. No-one can deduct money from your card without your consent. I don't know about anyone else, but I'd spot something that I hadn't paid for pretty quickly, and get my money back.

vector

"She got €49 worth of petrol and came over and handed me her card, she took the oil and said she would put it in while the card was going through."

That was the point to stop and say to the woman "I'll have to wait until I know how much engine oil you've used before I can know the total bill"

while it makes sense to you, and everyone else here reading it from the comfort of their computers, to put throught the petrol and then settle the engine oil, you must remember that the point of sale public are stupid or pretend to be or are not thinking, so every transaction must be simple and immediate

I learned that from working in a petrol station myself, someone would buy say 20 of petrol and walk into the shop and hand me a card, meanwhile his children would present him with some sweets to purchase, learning this I'd not enter the total for people who came in with children until it was clear they weren't going to buy stuff.

Sam Vimes

secret_squirrel wrote:

a) the woman is an idiot

the woman is an idiot. not because she doesn't understand the credit card system, but because she blew her top over something she knew nothing about.

secret_squirrel wrote:

b) she took your comments the wrong way.

i hate when people do that. isn't that right [not naming any names].

me and the biz wrote:

That annoys me too, it takes a sec just check the sig.

Not just a UK/Ireland thing, I've been asked to enter my pin over here a few times.

i never actually did a handwriting recognition class and so am completely unqualified to check a signature. in fact any time i took a credit card i made a point of not checking the signature to show how ludicrous the system is. there were two exceptions to this:

1. if the person looked really dodgy
2. if it was a new card that they hadn't signed yet and then signed it in front of me. those times i made damn sure the sigs matched

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

You can still use your card without its pin number over the internet and when ordering, for instance, a home delivery chinese takeaway.

my local doesn't do that anymore. i like to think they stopped in large part because i used to sign all the receipts "D Duck"

seamus wrote:

Ultimately, it is has been said. No-one can deduct money from your card without your consent. I don't know about anyone else, but I'd spot something that I hadn't paid for pretty quickly, and get my money back.

sure they can. retailers have all the details necessary to deduct money. they have to or they wouldn't be able to deduct money. they can take money after the customer is gone but then when the person notices they get the money back


appropriate linky:
http://www.zug.com/pranks/credit_card/

TempestSabre

This is not going to help...

Chip and pin hack exposed
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=31547

WhiteWashMan

ok, lets go through this one more time...

Stekelly wrote:

The subject is credit cards. I also asked you to explain how to take money from someones bank account with their credit card details. Hint: You cant.

you got me. even when i said i couldnt explain it, but that the OP had said he could, you found me out. yep, you cought me telling the truth.

i cant explain it.

nice one. your powers of detection are second to none.

Stekelly wrote:

Blindly jumping into something with large financial implicatiosn without educating yourself first? I'd call that stupid.

so im going to assume that you know every single method of banking, pension and finance?
well go you.

i was not aware that anyone could 'legally' access money on my credit card without my authorisation.

the OP telling the woman that he could deduct money from her card without the need for her to authorise it doesnt imply a need for education on her part.

if that can be done (and i dont know how its done as already spotted by your good self) then i think the woman is right. some education of the masses id needed.

i assume that when you first applied for a credit card you sat down with the banker and he told you every conceivable way that people could deduct money from you without your knowledge or authorisation.
didnt you?

you didnt?

now, does that make you stupid as well?

Stekelly wrote:

I was replying to your point that was ignorant of the way a credit card works in that you cant use it in any way to get funds from someones bank account. The customer lost the head because he was able to charge without teh card, but failed to notice that he, or anyone lese that has ever held her card could have taken the numbers and charged what they like.

well, if you know what she was thinking youre a better man than i. apparently you have the 6th sight.

i am well aware that you can be charged without the physical use of the card, but i think the womans point was that the OP said he would just deduct it after he already charged her. so a second charge was being made without her authorisation.
i would not be happy with that at all either.

if youre going to run a business with a CC as a tool, then you need to go by the rules. if you dont, you can be accused of fraud.

'sorry your honour, i was only trying to save the woman some time by reading back through our till results and deducting money from her account.'

'and you have a signed till reciept or a chip and pin entry?'

'well, no, i dont... but i swear your honour, im an honest lad.'


i dont see that the woman had a go at the OP, i dont see that she blamed him. i see someone getting upset that such a thing could happen that they didnt know about.
well, shame on her! perhaps we should stone her and make an example out of her and her ignorance in the ways of credit card fraud!
next we'll target people who dont know how to make bombs!

Stekelly wrote:

What about "some fúcker" in a warehouse in the Jersey where you have just bought a dvd from? (or any other online purchase) Or the person from the cinema you gave your details to over the phone? Why do people think that because they cant see someone theres no problem.?

what about it? these examples are silly. they in no way fit what happened at the petrol station.


at the end of the day, youre just saying this woman is stupid becuase she didnt realise that this could be done.

i dont think she is stupid. and she has the right to kick up a fuss if she wants.

if you think shes stupid for that, then go you and everyone else. personally, id like to think im a little more tolerant of other peoples lack of education in the way of freud and criminal activity.

Boggle

I'd have to agree with whitewashman here...

Personally, I'd always taken it for granted that purchases whereby the card was presented needed to be verified. Whats to stop some lad adding a fiver to every 10 people and taking it from the till? What happens when the CC company goes back and asks for verification of the tx??

seamus

Commander Vimes wrote:

sure they can. retailers have all the details necessary to deduct money. they have to or they wouldn't be able to deduct money. they can take money after the customer is gone but then when the person notices they get the money back

OK, I'll rephrase what I was saying - They can take out money whenever they like, but without your consent the transaction isn't valid. So you just get your money back. So retailers can't get anything from your credit card without your consent.

WhiteWashMan

well, they can. but it would be freud...

jaggeh

actually WWman is correct

the card in question wasnt a credit card it was a laser debit card which takes money directly from your bank account.

*swish*