Credit Card Incident

jor el · 08-05-2006 11:27PM

This seems like over reaction on the woman's part. If a retailer decides to start taking extra money from people's cards then they leave themselves open to fraud investigations. All people need to do is check their statement when it arrives. If you saw two transactions in the one shop on the same day that would probably stand out as odd. You can then query this with the bank and they will investigate. It could have been a simple mistake, or fraud by the retailer, but either way the customer is protected.

The full story can be seen on the limerickpost.ie website. This is also a badly written article as it refers to a Laser card as a credit card, which it isn't, and isn't covered by the same insurances as a credit card, as far as I know. I'm sure though that a retailer issuing false debits to a Laser card would find themselves in hot water if they couldn't prove that you authorised it.

She contacted her credit card company after the incident but could not get answers to her questions, she claims.
She told the Limerick Post that she had now cancelled her Laser card and would pay in cash in the future.

So she discovered that retailers have the ability to charge her card and decided to cancel it. This is the knee-jerk reaction of an idiot if there ever was one. As has been mentioned, online and over the phone retailers do this all the time, and have been doing so for years. Hell, if you go to the self-service till in Tesco you just swipe your card and don't sign anything. Seems to me either the woman, or the Limerick Post, (or both) haven't a clue what they're on about.

Despite crowing about the added security of the system, banks have been left red-faced by a claim from a Limerick consumer that retailers can access bank accounts without the permission, signature or PIN of the card owner.

This is just bollox. The retailers have no access to peoples bank accounts, but they can issue charges to a customers card. If the customer queries the charge then the retailer will be asked to produce a PIN or signature verified receipt for the transaction. Failure to do so will result in the transaction being reversed, multiple queries to any particular retailer can result in credit/debit card facilities being removed and possibly Garda investigations if fraud is suspected.

astrofool · 08-05-2006 11:28PM

As has been noted, and as is the way all over the world, charges can be made to the account with the 16 numbers + expiry, BUT unless the person who took the payment has proof of it being authorised (via signature, or pin) then they can lose the payment.

This is the reason why making orders on the internet can be such a pain when people have to fax through ID to prove who they are. Verified by VISA is a new system being implemented online, which basically gives each card a password, and like chip and pin, the password is the card owners responsibility.

Now, this does not stop any website in the world from taking thousands of euro from anyone, but if that person has a confirmation order for say €50, then the credit card company will know the larger amount was fraudulent (the importance of keeping receipts for at least a month shown here).

It seems to me that alot of the people here should go out and learn about their credit cards before taking the risk of using them again.

Also, to the OP, when it comes to handling credit cards, ALWAYS use the physical card, its just the proper way to do it. Of course using the receipt is a short cut, but that is not the procedure, and causes problems like this. If the woman refused to sign the new receipt, created without the card, then the shop would legally lose the money, by using the card and swiping it, it is then the person's responsibility to sign it, or the shop can ring the cops about non-payment.

All shops should be using chip and pin solely now, if a card is fraudulent and they didn't use chip/pin, then the shop has no legal comeback. Chip and pin can be bypassed by anyone, if I remember right, a default auth code could be used, but as I said, this is at risk to the shop that the payment won't be disputed (shop videotapes can also play a role here).

It's also the reason shops have limits on cashback on laser, as the cashback is not guaranteed by the card issuer, only the sale amount. The retailer provides the service at risk in order to attract customers.

Tips can be taken after a meal, because the holder has signed that the tips can be taken off. Of course it doesn't use chip+pin, so the person could claim a forgery, but few judges would believe it.

[edit]and WWM, what was 1) the point of quoting the whole passage, when everyone can read it on the front page and 2) dividing secret_squirrels post into mini quotes without actually making any points how the hell does "and?" prove a point wrong and the "contents may be hot" meant he/she did imply that the person was stupid, and you could at least show otherwise. At the very least its been established that she doesn't know how the credit card system works, it's not a far reach to imply its because she's stupid and can't understand after, i'm sure, countless people have explained it to her before getting as far as the local rag. 3) grrrr![/edit]

Guy:Incognito · 08-05-2006 11:32PM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

it hink theres a difference between someone slipping you false fivers, and someone having the ability to remove money from your bank account.

If you can explain how someone can take money out of your account using your cc details, I'm all ears. Im sure the bank would be interested too.

jimmycrackcorm · 08-05-2006 11:39PM

I would have told that woman not to order pizza from Dominos either as they will takeyour card number over the phone - no pin required!

Fact is that the retailer is liable for the fraud where pin is not used not the card holder.

subway · 08-05-2006 11:43PM

we used to manually enter numbers all the time,
particualrly when a card was unreadable.

never did it w/o a sig tho,
fair enough the woman over reacted to the idea that her card number + exp date was enough info to process the transaction - has she never bought online / over the phone?
but the retailer should always get the receipt signed / pin entered

WhiteWashMan · 08-05-2006 11:56PM

secret_squirrel wrote:

Couldnt have said it better myself Mr Pot.

Tell me do you go trolling when there's not enough modding to do?

Im tempted to refute your comments but most of us realise its futile when you're in this kind of mood. /Ignore tbh.

yeah, you cant defend your over the top points and are just wrong. so what.

*yawn*

Stekelly wrote:

If you can explain how someone can take money out of your account using your cc details, I'm all ears. Im sure the bank would be interested too

you tell me. the OP told the woman he could deduct 10 quid from her account by using the receipt on the till.

why dont you ask the OP. after all, that is what the woman was complaining about, yes?

astrofool wrote:

[edit]and WWM, what was 1) the point of quoting the whole passage, when everyone can read it on the front page and 2) dividing secret_squirrels post into mini quotes without actually making any points how the hell does "and?" prove a point wrong and the "contents may be hot" meant he/she did imply that the person was stupid, and you could at least show otherwise. At the very least its been established that she doesn't know how the credit card system works, it's not a far reach to imply its because she's stupid and can't understand after, i'm sure, countless people have explained it to her before getting as far as the local rag. 3) grrrr![/edit]

not understanding the credit card system = stupid?

interesting.

im going to have to say that 'stupid assumptions of people = stupid'

that makes you stupid i guess. right?

stekelly wrote:

Anyone with access to your cc for 10 seconds could rub an imprint into a piece of paper with a pencil, he could have done it on the sly if he wanted to steal, but he didnt he told the customer what he was doing.

did the customer say he was stealing money?

i fail to see anywhere in that entire passage that says the customer attacked the OP over the deduction of money.

everyone else appears to think she does, but i see no proof.
i see her going off on one that money can be deducted at a later point, and i have to agree withthat.
i dont want some fúcker in some esso garage somewhere with the ability to remove money from my account after i have shopped there.

regardless of whether he has taken a rubbing of it or not. i dont see how thats even relative to this conversation.

its amazing how so many people here can damn some woman as stupid etc just because she is concerned about credit card fraud, throw out insults her way, and have a go at her and the local newspaper. pathetic.
slow day on boards.ie is it?

astrofool · 09-05-2006 12:17AM

Great at ignoring anything that basically answered any of your "points".

The local Esso garage can of course, as has been stated, remove money from your account after you have shopped there with your laser/credit card.

WWM, how about posting something to show she isn't stupid, of course there isn't any, all we know is that she doesn't know about the credit card system, so in that area, yes, she is stupid, like i'd be stupid when it came to being a neuro-surgeon. You also seem to be stupid when it comes to credit cards, on evidence so far (of course you're not stupid in general). But at least stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

And notice the lack of need for quoting people? I'm assuming people aren't too stupid to put together what is being answered, rather than making posts long, drawn out, and unreadable. So, either you think everyone here is stupid, in which case, stop being so arrogant, or you have a short term memory block preventing you from remembering posts without quoting them (btw, it must take a hell of a time in formatting to put it all back together like that and not end up with

being left in because you misssed a "/").

snappieT · 09-05-2006 12:18AM

I've told customers in Argos this so many times, I might as well say it here.

On Valentines Day this year, the banks decision to remove liability from themselves kicked in. Upto that point, if there was any fraud on CC transactions, the banks would be pay for it. On Valentines Day, they revoked this, with the exception of Chip & Pin, a system they are so confident in that they are willing to take the brunt.
Retailers can take CC transactions whatever way they like, but they now suffer the cost if the card is stolen, cloned etc. Most retailers want to avoid bad debts, so they will either insist on Chip & Pin (no risk to them) or will assemble trust with the customer (many other cards in the same name, photo ID with same name, capability to write down own name [It's scary how many people I've caught out this way])
Dominos etc. can take details over the phone, but they assume trust (and the accompanying risk) in that customer. They always have your address to come over and break your legs if the business goes under because of you anyways.

astrofool · 09-05-2006 12:22AM

Speaking of which, Shell in England just got stung by a gang who took away the physical CC machine, put in a skimmer, and gave it back (saying they were repairing it). Article here:

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=31547

I'd presume it also caught the pin number entered.

Skyuser · 09-05-2006 12:25AM

TempestSabre wrote:

Its no safer than it was before, because if the pin machine is not working (quite often) they go back to using the signature which is no security at all IMO. Then you have over the phone transactions, they ae equally insecure. Nearly every 2nd place you use a cc they try to take it out of your sight to use it, mainly because they have the machine in an awkward place. Which means they have the same problem with every CC customer. But its obviously not such a problem that they've had to move the machine.

This is only temporary while they introduce the system. There will be a date in the future set when ONLY pin's will be accepted. No signatures.
This happened in UK a few months back. They now only accept pin's.

Guy:Incognito · 09-05-2006 12:30AM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

you tell me. the OP told the woman he could deduct 10 quid from her account by using the receipt on the till.

The subject is credit cards. I also asked you to explain how to take money from someones bank account with their credit card details. Hint: You cant.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

not understanding the credit card system = stupid?

interesting.

Blindly jumping into something with large financial implicatiosn without educating yourself first? I'd call that stupid.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

did the customer say he was stealing money?

i fail to see anywhere in that entire passage that says the customer attacked the OP over the deduction of money.

I was replying to your point that was ignorant of the way a credit card works in that you cant use it in any way to get funds from someones bank account. The customer lost the head because he was able to charge without teh card, but failed to notice that he, or anyone lese that has ever held her card could have taken the numbers and charged what they like.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

everyone else appears to think she does, but i see no proof.
i see her going off on one that money can be deducted at a later point, and i have to agree withthat.
i dont want some fúcker in some esso garage somewhere with the ability to remove money from my account after i have shopped there.

What about "some fúcker" in a warehouse in the Jersey where you have just bought a dvd from? (or any other online purchase) Or the person from the cinema you gave your details to over the phone? Why do people think that because they cant see someone theres no problem.?

seamus · 09-05-2006 01:03AM

While her concerns were valid, they're not exactly new, and her reaction was over-the-top.

Having worked in customer services for years before, it's typical of customers who assume they understand what they're talking about, to first off blow something out of all proportion, and then once they've done that they have difficulty recalling the incidents and conversations with any accuracy, and instead substitute the actual truth with what they they think was said, or assume was said.

Ultimately, it is has been said. No-one can deduct money from your card without your consent. I don't know about anyone else, but I'd spot something that I hadn't paid for pretty quickly, and get my money back.

vector · 09-05-2006 01:48AM

"She got €49 worth of petrol and came over and handed me her card, she took the oil and said she would put it in while the card was going through."

That was the point to stop and say to the woman "I'll have to wait until I know how much engine oil you've used before I can know the total bill"

while it makes sense to you, and everyone else here reading it from the comfort of their computers, to put throught the petrol and then settle the engine oil, you must remember that the point of sale public are stupid or pretend to be or are not thinking, so every transaction must be simple and immediate

I learned that from working in a petrol station myself, someone would buy say 20 of petrol and walk into the shop and hand me a card, meanwhile his children would present him with some sweets to purchase, learning this I'd not enter the total for people who came in with children until it was clear they weren't going to buy stuff.

Sam Vimes · 09-05-2006 10:23AM

secret_squirrel wrote:

a) the woman is an idiot

the woman is an idiot. not because she doesn't understand the credit card system, but because she blew her top over something she knew nothing about.

secret_squirrel wrote:

b) she took your comments the wrong way.

i hate when people do that. isn't that right [not naming any names].

me and the biz wrote:

That annoys me too, it takes a sec just check the sig.

Not just a UK/Ireland thing, I've been asked to enter my pin over here a few times.

i never actually did a handwriting recognition class and so am completely unqualified to check a signature. in fact any time i took a credit card i made a point of not checking the signature to show how ludicrous the system is. there were two exceptions to this:

1. if the person looked really dodgy
2. if it was a new card that they hadn't signed yet and then signed it in front of me. those times i made damn sure the sigs matched

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

You can still use your card without its pin number over the internet and when ordering, for instance, a home delivery chinese takeaway.

my local doesn't do that anymore. i like to think they stopped in large part because i used to sign all the receipts "D Duck"

seamus wrote:

Ultimately, it is has been said. No-one can deduct money from your card without your consent. I don't know about anyone else, but I'd spot something that I hadn't paid for pretty quickly, and get my money back.

sure they can. retailers have all the details necessary to deduct money. they have to or they wouldn't be able to deduct money. they can take money after the customer is gone but then when the person notices they get the money back

appropriate linky:
http://www.zug.com/pranks/credit_card/

TempestSabre · 09-05-2006 11:40AM

This is not going to help...

Chip and pin hack exposed
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=31547

WhiteWashMan · 09-05-2006 12:43PM

ok, lets go through this one more time...

Stekelly wrote:

The subject is credit cards. I also asked you to explain how to take money from someones bank account with their credit card details. Hint: You cant.

you got me. even when i said i couldnt explain it, but that the OP had said he could, you found me out. yep, you cought me telling the truth.

i cant explain it.

nice one. your powers of detection are second to none.

Stekelly wrote:

Blindly jumping into something with large financial implicatiosn without educating yourself first? I'd call that stupid.

so im going to assume that you know every single method of banking, pension and finance?
well go you.

i was not aware that anyone could 'legally' access money on my credit card without my authorisation.

the OP telling the woman that he could deduct money from her card without the need for her to authorise it doesnt imply a need for education on her part.

if that can be done (and i dont know how its done as already spotted by your good self) then i think the woman is right. some education of the masses id needed.

i assume that when you first applied for a credit card you sat down with the banker and he told you every conceivable way that people could deduct money from you without your knowledge or authorisation.
didnt you?

you didnt?

now, does that make you stupid as well?

Stekelly wrote:

I was replying to your point that was ignorant of the way a credit card works in that you cant use it in any way to get funds from someones bank account. The customer lost the head because he was able to charge without teh card, but failed to notice that he, or anyone lese that has ever held her card could have taken the numbers and charged what they like.

well, if you know what she was thinking youre a better man than i. apparently you have the 6th sight.

i am well aware that you can be charged without the physical use of the card, but i think the womans point was that the OP said he would just deduct it after he already charged her. so a second charge was being made without her authorisation.
i would not be happy with that at all either.

if youre going to run a business with a CC as a tool, then you need to go by the rules. if you dont, you can be accused of fraud.

'sorry your honour, i was only trying to save the woman some time by reading back through our till results and deducting money from her account.'

'and you have a signed till reciept or a chip and pin entry?'

'well, no, i dont... but i swear your honour, im an honest lad.'

i dont see that the woman had a go at the OP, i dont see that she blamed him. i see someone getting upset that such a thing could happen that they didnt know about.
well, shame on her! perhaps we should stone her and make an example out of her and her ignorance in the ways of credit card fraud!
next we'll target people who dont know how to make bombs!

Stekelly wrote:

What about "some fúcker" in a warehouse in the Jersey where you have just bought a dvd from? (or any other online purchase) Or the person from the cinema you gave your details to over the phone? Why do people think that because they cant see someone theres no problem.?

what about it? these examples are silly. they in no way fit what happened at the petrol station.

at the end of the day, youre just saying this woman is stupid becuase she didnt realise that this could be done.

i dont think she is stupid. and she has the right to kick up a fuss if she wants.

if you think shes stupid for that, then go you and everyone else. personally, id like to think im a little more tolerant of other peoples lack of education in the way of freud and criminal activity.

Boggle · 09-05-2006 01:00PM

I'd have to agree with whitewashman here...

Personally, I'd always taken it for granted that purchases whereby the card was presented needed to be verified. Whats to stop some lad adding a fiver to every 10 people and taking it from the till? What happens when the CC company goes back and asks for verification of the tx??

seamus · 09-05-2006 01:46PM

Commander Vimes wrote:

sure they can. retailers have all the details necessary to deduct money. they have to or they wouldn't be able to deduct money. they can take money after the customer is gone but then when the person notices they get the money back

OK, I'll rephrase what I was saying - They can take out money whenever they like, but without your consent the transaction isn't valid. So you just get your money back. So retailers can't get anything from your credit card without your consent.

WhiteWashMan · 09-05-2006 01:54PM

well, they can. but it would be freud...

jaggeh · 09-05-2006 02:08PM

actually WWman is correct

the card in question wasnt a credit card it was a laser debit card which takes money directly from your bank account.

*swish*

Sam Vimes · 09-05-2006 02:42PM

Boggle wrote:

I'd have to agree with whitewashman here...

Personally, I'd always taken it for granted that purchases whereby the card was presented needed to be verified. Whats to stop some lad adding a fiver to every 10 people and taking it from the till? What happens when the CC company goes back and asks for verification of the tx??

as i found out in a club on saturday, sometimes they do put extra on the cc. he thought i was too drunk to notice. i showed him

WhiteWashMan wrote:

well, they can. but it would be freud...

as in the psychiatrist?

you can definitely do a transaction on someone's card without their authorisation. the only way to stop it would be force the cards to be swiped each time, ie you can't enter the numbers if the card is faulty and you can't buy anything online. people just have to look at their statements and contest any transactions they don't recognise.

Duff Man Jr. · 09-05-2006 02:56PM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

the OP told the woman he could deduct 10 quid from her account by using the receipt on the till.

why dont you ask the OP. after all, that is what the woman was complaining about, yes?

I said i could charge €10 to her card not deduct it from her a/c. Theres a difference.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

i dont want some fúcker in some esso garage somewhere with the ability to remove money from my account after i have shopped there.

As i told her its not just me but anyone using a cc machine.

Duff Man Jr. · 09-05-2006 03:22PM

jaggeh wrote:

actually WWman is correct

the card in question wasnt a credit card it was a laser debit card which takes money directly from your bank account.

*swish*

Yes the debit card takes money from your bank a/c. The retailer charges €10 to the card, they dont have access to any bank a/c.

WhiteWashMan · 09-05-2006 04:48PM

Duff Man Jr. wrote:

I said i could charge €10 to her card not deduct it from her a/c. Theres a difference.

to the bank there is.
to the end user, there really isnt.
its 10 quid of mine that goes missing. whether it added to a credit card, or taken from an account makes no odds to me. im still a 10er down.

Duff Man Jr. wrote:

As i told her its not just me but anyone using a cc machine.

well aware of it

Duff Man Jr. wrote:

Yes the debit card takes money from your bank a/c. The retailer charges €10 to the card, they dont have access to any bank a/c.

again, see first point. youre talking semantics.

no on e is really saying that anyone has direct access to your account. what were talking about is the ability for people to get money that you will either find gone from your account, or credited to your card.

either way you lose out.

Commander Vimes wrote:

as in the psychiatrist?

brainfart!
fraud

you know when you get a spelling in your head and no matter what it just wont go away....

funk-you · 10-05-2006 12:19AM

At the end of the day when you get ANY card from the bank it comes with a booklet(or at least all the ones i've gotten have) and this booklet explains everything about the card. She should have taken the time to read it cover to cover or she shouldn't have been using the card. If any money is charged to or taken from your a/c it'll be on your statement.

When you get the statement at the end of the month and see that something is wrongfully charged/taken from the a/c you contact the bank and dispute it. If you havn't entered a pin or signed for it : case closed, you get your money.

When you give out any card information(numbers/pin/security code/anything) you are taking a risk which is mentioned in the booklet you receive. Also when you're applying for the card you get the terms & conditions which you are asked to read.

This woman has been given all the information and it seems just wasn't arsed reading it all. She had to have known full well that all you need is the card no. , expiriry date and on visa/mastercard the security code to make any phone/online purchase and that anyone with this information about her card can also.

It actually mentions in the booklet i got with my cc not to let it out of your sight when making a transaction and to review your statement when you get it to make sure eveything is ok. Also to always make sure to sign your card and ANY receipt that you have not been asked to enter the pin for.

She didn't educate herself about her card and got indignant and acted surprised at how the card can function. She IS an idiot. It IS her over-reacting. She IS an idiot.

If she wants the card maybe she should spend 15-20 minutes educating herself with the information that was actually POSTED RIGHT TO HER DOOR.

-Funk

Placebo · 10-05-2006 12:26AM

what a stupid bitch.
Absolute illiterate to todays technology, CC frauds are easily caught.

The Sweeper · 10-05-2006 01:54AM

Placebo wrote:

CC frauds are easily caught.

o_O

...what now?

jimmycrackcorm · 10-05-2006 02:09AM

TempestSabre wrote:

This is not going to help...

Chip and pin hack exposed
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=31547

Lest anyone be unaware, it is next to impossible to clone the card chip as they operate in a black box capacity. So even if someone has your pin it is only useful with the original card or with a normal swipe that in atms that have not been converted to chip and pin.

The shell link was purely askimming operation like many before.

Guy:Incognito · 10-05-2006 02:23AM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

well, they can. but it would be freud...

My appologies, I assumed I was dealing with an adult. Of course they can but people notice, then companies get sued.

jaggeh wrote:

actually WWman is correct

the card in question wasnt a credit card it was a laser debit card which takes money directly from your bank account.
*swish*

Yes, but if you read the thread the words "credit card" are specifically mentioned as teh subject of the questions, so Swish right back atcha.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

so im going to assume that you know every single method of banking, pension and finance? well go you.

Nope but I know the basics of what I use, as it would be foolish not to. ie, what details to give people or not re: my current a/c . The only other service I use from the bank is a credit card I got yesterday. I know the in's and outs of credit cards and how buying online/in person/ on the phone carries a risk. A good proportion of people with a c will have had a charge put on without the retailer physically having the card and as such, know it can be done easily.

As was mentioned above, an element of trust is required on the retailers behalf. A person in a shop charging things to a cc is a very basic and easy to catch method of fraud that wouldnt last long.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

the OP telling the woman that he could deduct money from her card without the need for her to authorise it doesnt imply a need for education on her part..

Yes it does, because as I sadi above the majority of people (not just those with cc's) know that a charge can be done without the card and without her authorisation. The bank never gets the reciepts anyway so whether she signs it is irrelevant, the only time the reciept is used is when a customer queries a charge. the bank go looking for the reciept that the customer was aware of the charge (the pin or signature)

WhiteWashMan wrote:

i assume that when you first applied for a credit card you sat down with the banker and he told you every conceivable way that people could deduct money from you without your knowledge or authorisation.
didnt you?

you didnt?

now, does that make you stupid as well?..

Nope I'm not an idiot, I know how credit cards work, no need for a sit down.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

well, if you know what she was thinking youre a better man than i. apparently you have the 6th sight.

Nah, just the 2 (one from each eye)

WhiteWashMan wrote:

no on e is really saying that anyone has direct access to your account. what were talking about is the ability for people to get money that you will either find gone from your account, or credited to your card.

either way you lose out.

How? You see a charge that should'nt be there, you complain to teh cc company, they ask the shop for the signed slip/slip with proof that the pin was entrered. The transaction wasn't authorised by you so they cancel it, you don't get charged.

Where are you losing out?

Sparky · 10-05-2006 02:58AM

Skyuser wrote:

This is only temporary while they introduce the system. There will be a date in the future set when ONLY pin's will be accepted. No signatures.
This happened in UK a few months back. They now only accept pin's.

bring on the day they use photo id on the card and biometrics.

Credit Card Incident

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