The begrudgery of the Irish

Tha Gopher · 03-05-2006 11:49AM

I remember Noel Gallagher was on Jonathan Ross show one night, and was asked why he ran to London as soon as he became famous instead of staying in Manchester. He replied that he was sick of going into local pubs he had been a regular at since he was 16, and being called a flash git if he bought everyone a drink, and a tight bastard if he didnt.

The fact that half of Manchester has an Irish surname probably proves Saskias point.

Actully OP, for someone hoping nobody in work will recognise her post, Saskia is a pretty rare name:( Id be hpoing that somewhere in Ireland theres 20 more girls of your name who have just got promoted and have only received sh1te from their colleagues

Jix · 03-05-2006 12:39PM

Morrissey - "We hate it when our friends become successful."
I think luckat hit the nail on the head by saying it seems to be a failure of grace & manners. Feelings of envy and jealousy are perfectly natural but in the interest of good manners people tend not to act on these emotions. Rather than having more begrudgering tendencies than others, maybe, just maybe, we are rude.

stovelid · 03-05-2006 01:39PM

Its pointless to say that people have reacted badly to your promotion but to be so vague about the details.

While begrudgery certainly exists (outside Ireland as well), sometimes it is used as a vague, indefinate response to people who either don't care about your goals or who have been sidelined in pursuit of them.

I'm not saying this applies to you of course, just that its impossible to know what to believe from the vague original post.

03-05-2006 01:47PM

fluffer wrote:

Perhaps however your workmates may have a minor point. Were you working uncontracted hours (ie unpaid) or on overtime? A colleague who did not wish to sacrifice his/her time off for unpaid work may feel betrayed by the system.

God fobid that she work hard, and look to achieve success rather than waiting for it to be handed to her. The problem I see is that many Irish people expect to get promotions or better wages from doing the bare minimum, without trying to excell at their jobs. (I understand you weren't making the point that she was wrong, but your post got me thinking)

Its like when we were in school. The people that studied hard for the best grades (not that I was one of them) were nerds, and when they got better college placements they were dismissed because they had no lives. Same in college. Same in work.

If you put in the extra effort to get a promotion, many workers seem to think you're betraying the community of workers.

When I bought my house, i had a number of friends turn their noses at me because I had done what they hadn't managed to do themselves. I've seen similiar with a friend who bought a BMV Z4 at 26. People have dismissed him, because he's done better than them in life.

There's a nasty condition with many Irish people where they see anyone displaying success or wealth as being a bad thing. We seem to believe we should hide our success. Rediculous I know.........

leeroybrown · 03-05-2006 02:02PM

As pointed out throughout this thread you've failed to give any examples.

When you got promoted you probably annoyed some colleagues who felt that they were equally deserving of a promotion. They could be annoyed with themselves for not getting a promotion or your employer for not recognising them which will come across in their demeanor. Some people will view the 14 hour days you were putting in as brown-nosing that made their positions more awkward and difficult. If that's the case then they may well be justified in being annoyed with you. Perhaps they think that you have made it such that a 14 hour working day is needed for promotion.

Personally speaking I don't have any problem with a colleague doing long hard days to get a promtion.

kittex wrote:

And ex of mine dumped me the day I got a promotion as he said he couldn't deal with me making more than him.

That's insecurity not begrudgery. Theres a big difference.

FillSpectre · 03-05-2006 02:14PM

Deleted User wrote:

If you put in the extra effort to get a promotion, many workers seem to think you're betraying the community of workers.

Maybe you missed the point of what I and Fluffer have made. If somebody makes the work environment a place where excessive overtime is the only way to get a promotion they ARE betraying the community of workers. If you can't get the promotion without working excessively over the hours you are meant to you aren't better than anybody else you are more commited to work. If a college who is more capable can do more work than you to a better standard in the same time should they not deserve the promotion?

The OP may not be looking at the entire picture. Family memebers can be well annoyed if you missed an important event or may see the greed involved in making work conditions worse for other people working in the company.

I worked with one guy who used to be in work for excessive hours without need and the boss took this as a hard worker. The truth was he did nothing during the day and then workedhard in his overtime. As a result his work was substandard and when a fellow college had it out with him he called them a begrudger for his promotion. It took a year before the boss realised the guy did nothing and actually cost the company time.

Cianos · 03-05-2006 02:24PM

I dont buy the excuse that the co-workers could just be pissed off because they feel that by her working above and beyond the call of duty it makes them look bad. She had the motivation and dedication to work hard to achieve what she has achieved. From the employers perspective who's going to be the obvious choice? While they are co-workers, in some aspects they are competing against eachother...thats just the way it is so they should just live with it and admit defeat and dont begrudge someone for being duly rewarded.

Cianos · 03-05-2006 02:32PM

FillSpectre wrote:

Maybe you missed the point of what I and Fluffer have made. If somebody makes the work environment a place where excessive overtime is the only way to get a promotion they ARE betraying the community of workers. If you can't get the promotion without working excessively over the hours you are meant to you aren't better than anybody else you are more commited to work. If a college who is more capable can do more work than you to a better standard in the same time should they not deserve the promotion?

The OP may not be looking at the entire picture. Family memebers can be well annoyed if you missed an important event or may see the greed involved in making work conditions worse for other people working in the company.

I worked with one guy who used to be in work for excessive hours without need and the boss took this as a hard worker. The truth was he did nothing during the day and then workedhard in his overtime. As a result his work was substandard and when a fellow college had it out with him he called them a begrudger for his promotion. It took a year before the boss realised the guy did nothing and actually cost the company time.

If they are working "over-time" just to make it look like they are doing loads of work then that is obviously not cool. But different people have different ways of working. Some people can sit down in one go and do loads of work, whereas others work better by spacing it out over longer periods of time. It doesnt matter who is working what hours in relation to a day/week. It should matter about who is doing the best work overall.

FillSpectre · 03-05-2006 02:46PM

Cianos wrote:

It should matter about who is doing the best work overall.

Yes it should be but it isn't. Say if you have a young child and have to keep to regular working hours. If somebody else is doing overtime you can't by sacrificing thier personal life how do you compare quality of work? Bosses will go for the person in the office or produced the most work.
I know of jobs where one person did the job and after they left it is realised that their wasn't enough work for one person or that their needs to be two people doing the job to cover the hours of somebody needing to be in the office for clients.
Working unpaid overtime is bad for the people you work with and yourself. It is selfish unless absolutely nesseary. If you regualrly have to do unpaid overtime you are being taken advantage of and you make working life bad for others.

Cianos · 03-05-2006 04:40PM

If someone wants to progress in their career faster there is nothing wrong with putting in the extra work to be noticed. As long as they are doing it honourably and are not taking advantage of the situation.

There is enough bitching and two-faced carry on in the workplace used in order to get one over on workmates. The fact that someone is willing to put in the hard work to achieve better things is only a good thing imo.

mayhem# · 03-05-2006 04:46PM

ronoc wrote:

You are kidding yourself if you think that is purely an Irish trait.

But the irish seem to have turned it into a national pastime...

E.

FillSpectre · 03-05-2006 04:48PM

Cianos wrote:

If someone wants to progress in their career faster there is nothing wrong with putting in the extra work to be noticed. As long as they are doing it honourably and are not taking advantage of the situation.

There is enough bitching and two-faced carry on in the workplace used in order to get one over on workmates. The fact that someone is willing to put in the hard work to achieve better things is only a good thing imo.

You are missing the point. It isn't that other people can choose not to work unpaid overtime it is they can't.iF it was just willingness that would be still bad the reality is by doing so you are simply undercutting everybodies wages in order to get personal gain. Do you understand this and just dismiss it?
A married man with two kids can't do what a single person can without a social life. THe father should not have to sacrifice his life because someboduy is undercutting them.
I must admit when I was younger I thiought it was fair but now I see how it is not fair and is against your fellow employees.

Sleepy · 03-05-2006 04:56PM

While I can see your point Fill, I'm not necessarily sure it's unfair of someone to work unpaid overtime provided they're working to full capacity during their regular shift. Sure, a family man can't work the hours of a single twentysomething but it was his own decision to have a family. If this holds back his career prospects, that's the opportunity cost he has to pay for having a family. Similarly, if the twentysomething works the unpaid over-time, his social life is the opportunity cost he pays for it.

Siogfinsceal · 03-05-2006 05:11PM

The Ant & the Grasshopper - A Modern Fable
>CLASSIC VERSION:
>
>The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer
>long, building his house and laying up supplies for
>the winter.
>
>The grasshopper thinks he's a fool, and laughs and
>dances and plays the summer away.
>
>Come winter, the Ant is warm and well fed.
>
>The shivering grasshopper has no food or shelter, so
>he dies out in the cold.
>
>THE END.
>
>
>
>THE IRISH VERSION:
>
>The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer
>long, building his house and laying up supplies for
>the winter.
>
>The grasshopper thinks he's a fool, and laughs and
>dances and plays the summer away.
>
>Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed.
>
>So far, so good, eh?
>
>
>
>
>
>The shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and
>demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be
>warm and well fed while others less fortunate, like
>him, are cold and starving.
>
>RTE shows up to provide live coverage of the
>shivering grasshopper, with cuts to a video of the ant
>in his comfortable warm home in Kildare with a table
>laden with food.
>
>The Irish are stunned that in a country of such
>wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so
>while others have plenty.
>
>
>
>The Labour Party, Sinn Fein, The Greens, The
>Transvestites With Starving Babies Party, the Single
>Lesbian One Eyed Mothers Party and the Coalition
>Against Poverty demonstrate in front of the ant's
>house.
>
>RTE, interrupting a Rastafarian cultural festival
>special from Waterford with breaking news, broadcasts
>them singing "We Shall Overcome."
>
>
>Tony Gregory laments in an interview with Prime Time
>that the ant has got rich off the backs of
>grasshoppers, and calls for an immediate tax hike on
>the ant to make him pay his "fair share".
>
>In response, Michael Mc Dowell drafts the
>Economic Equity and Grasshopper Anti-Discrimination
>Act, retroactive to the beginning of the summer.
>
>The ant's taxes are reassessed, and he is also fined
>for failing to Hire grasshoppers as helpers. Without
>enough money to pay the fine and his newly imposed
>retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by Kildare County
>Council.
>
>
>
>The ant moves to France, and starts a successful
>AgriBiz company [funded by the EU] (although within
>weeks, his business is threatened with Compulsory
>purchase by the state unless he marries a French ant).
>
>
>
>RTE later shows the now fat grasshopper finishing
>up the last of the ant's food, though Spring is still
>months away, while the government house he is in,
>which just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles
>around him because he hasn't bothered to maintain it.
>Inadequate government funding is blamed, Diane Abbot
>is appointed to head a commission of enquiry that will
>cost E10,000,000.
>
>
>
>The grasshopper is soon dead of a drug overdose, the
>Guardian blames it on the obvious failure of
>government to address the root causes of despair
>arising from social inequity. The abandoned house is
>taken over by a Gang of immigrant spiders, praised by
>the government for enriching Irelands multicultural
>diversity, who promptly set up a marijuana growing
>Operations and terrorize the community.
>
>
>
>THE END .

kittex · 03-05-2006 05:25PM

leeroybrown wrote:

That's insecurity not begrudgery. Theres a big difference.

Is that not what begrudging is at the end of the day?

Begrudging behaviour is rooted in jealousy and insecurity.
If people were happy and confident with their own life and achievements, they wouldn't need to take away anything from other people.

Sleepy · 03-05-2006 05:36PM

What if those other people have gotten their achievements at the expense of the begrudger?

TBH, I can understand begrudgery if the person gaining the achievements are doing so undeservedly. And in those cases, I can't really condemn anyone for feeling that way.

Saskia · 03-05-2006 08:14PM

I cant see how the amount of hours Ive worked has to do with anything? Overtime is there for everyone if they want it. This isnt a work issue, its one about Irish attitudes. Great post Siogfinsceal, it sums up how much Ireland is screwed but it does it with some humour at least.

nesf · 03-05-2006 08:44PM

Saskia wrote:

I cant see how the amount of hours Ive worked has to do with anything? Overtime is there for everyone if they want it.

No it isn't. Some companies allow it, some don't. The ones that don't generally don't want to pay you overtime. Some just actively discourage it by being nasty and closing up when people finish work at 5.30. Inconsiderate buggers!

Saskia wrote:

This isnt a work issue, its one about Irish attitudes. Great post Siogfinsceal, it sums up how much Ireland is screwed but it does it with some humour at least.

I disagree. This seems to be more an issue about your need for adulation and the lack thereof, but let's not get off-topic. I don't disagree with you that quite a few people in this country begrudge other's sucess. It's some messed up anti-wealth thing or something. I wouldn't jump the gun and blame it for your particular situation. It's probably a lot more complicated than that (the very fact you think in terms of "social ladders" could be what got under some people's skin. That is something that seems to drive certain individuals nuts).

Saskia wrote:

Begrudging behaviour is rooted in jealousy and insecurity.
If people were happy and confident with their own life and achievements, they wouldn't need to take away anything from other people.

Not necessarily. Some people might genuinely believe that you don't deserve the promotion, ie they could have little respect for you or something. Not necessarily insecurity usually just plain old arrogance.

Saskia · 04-05-2006 09:54AM

mayhem# wrote:

But the irish seem to have turned it into a national pastime...

E.

Well that and drinking as a sport.

Saskia · 04-05-2006 09:59AM

Cianos wrote:

There is enough bitching and two-faced carry on in the workplace used in order to get one over on workmates. The fact that someone is willing to put in the hard work to achieve better things is only a good thing imo.

Exactly, why shouldnt my sacrifices have an upside? Competition among workmates is encouraged in the States, actually, overall - bloody capitalism is encouraged!

Nesf I'll reply to you later, gotta get back on that "social ladder" for now :rolleyes:

FillSpectre · 04-05-2006 10:54AM

Saskia wrote:

Exactly, why shouldnt my sacrifices have an upside? Competition among workmates is encouraged in the States, actually, overall - bloody capitalism is encouraged!

Nesf I'll reply to you later, gotta get back on that "social ladder" for now :rolleyes:

Well I don't know about you but I don't want the american society. Survival of the fittest and personal gain over unity of workers. Your sacrifice has only an upside for you and a down size for everybody else.

It is not begrudgry to not be impressed by somebody who got a promotion by undercutting your work.

stovelid · 04-05-2006 12:50PM

I'm still no wiser about the background to this alleged "begrudgery" than 3 pages ago.

Its about a useful as me starting a post saying "My wife said that i'm a c*nt for various things I wont go in to. I think she is over reacting. Typical of Irish women. Discuss."

Perhaps 'begrudging' people just dont care if some of their colleagues want to work more than others.

Perhaps the begrudgers are not particularly quick to praise their colleagues for doing so?

Perhaps the begrudgers are the partners and family of people who prioritize work over them?

Who knows..

04-05-2006 01:02PM

FillSpectre wrote:

Well I don't know about you but I don't want the american society. Survival of the fittest and personal gain over unity of workers. Your sacrifice has only an upside for you and a down size for everybody else.

You don't have to do the overtime the other person is doing. You don't have to work harder. You don't have to make sacrifices. You can continue to do exactly what your job specification requires. And you'll get paid what you signed up for.

However, in business, you're advanced for your ability and dedication to your work. If you're not ambitious enough, you won't get to be a manager. Thats the way its always been, and it makes sense.

And it doesn't impact on other people. They still continue to get paid the rate they signed up for. They continue to do the jobs that they started. The only person affected is the person who got the reward for working hard.

It is not begrudgry to not be impressed by somebody who got a promotion by undercutting your work.

How are they undercutting your work? You've decided you're only going to do the minimum. They've decided they're going to do more. Take some responsibility for your own choice not to advance the ladder of success, and stop moaning about it. [not directed at you personally, but the opinion you seem to be approving.]

04-05-2006 01:19PM

FillSpectre wrote:

Maybe you missed the point of what I and Fluffer have made. If somebody makes the work environment a place where excessive overtime is the only way to get a promotion they ARE betraying the community of workers. If you can't get the promotion without working excessively over the hours you are meant to you aren't better than anybody else you are more commited to work.

But this isn't just about overtime. And its not about making overtime the only way to adance in work. My job doesn't offer paid overtime to employees. I've actually only had one job that did offer that option. And yet I've had many experiences where I've been in work 2 hours after it finished, because I've had a deadline to get the next day.

You seem to think that if people do the minimum requirement then they're entitled to promotion. And that if someone works longer and harder, then they're taking away from the people that don't. It doesn't work that way. If someone gets promoted, its only them that receives the rewards and the extra duties. The people that don't work harder are only affected in that, that person is no longer with them. Its their own personal choice not to work for that same promotion/success.

Thats business. We achieve better positions by being noticed through our ability, and dedication.

If a college who is more capable can do more work than you to a better standard in the same time should they not deserve the promotion?

Sure they should, and they probably will. If they don't, then thats an issue with the company's internal structure. Its not an issue with the people that chose to work longer hours. Working longer hours doesn't necessarily mean getting a promotion.

I worked with one guy who used to be in work for excessive hours without need and the boss took this as a hard worker. The truth was he did nothing during the day and then workedhard in his overtime. As a result his work was substandard and when a fellow college had it out with him he called them a begrudger for his promotion. It took a year before the boss realised the guy did nothing and actually cost the company time.

[/quote]

And thats a problem with the management for not seeing through the issue. If his work is substandard, it should be noticed. Just as if his work is excellent it will be noticed.

I have monthly targets which I need to achieve. If I make those targets I've earned my pay. If I don't, I'm asked why. If I exceed them its noted down and taken into consideration regarding pay rises and promotions. If I work harder and longer hours, to achieve my targets or more, the only person affected in the company is myself. If I just achieve my target, and someone else gets higher, it doesn't impact on my work, or my position.

FillSpectre · 04-05-2006 01:40PM

Deleted User wrote:

You don't have to do the overtime the other person is doing. You don't have to work harder. You don't have to make sacrifices. You can continue to do exactly what your job specification requires. And you'll get paid what you signed up for.

Well maybe you never worked with people I have worked with and for. You aren't given a choice. If you say no to an unreasonable request you are seen as a bad worker.

Deleted User wrote:

However, in business, you're advanced for your ability and dedication to your work. If you're not ambitious enough, you won't get to be a manager. Thats the way its always been, and it makes sense.

I don't agree. Many people are promoted for putting up with unreasonable and illegal work conditions. If you hire such people to be managers you end up with constant unreasonable expectations. Hard worker does not equal good manager proved time and time again so no it doesn't make sense

Deleted User wrote:

And it doesn't impact on other people. They still continue to get paid the rate they signed up for. They continue to do the jobs that they started. The only person affected is the person who got the reward for working hard.

If your manager thinks people should all work as hard as they did or the person trying to get their job it certainly does effect you. I have seen this many times before. Irish business often hire people unsuitable for management or promotion based on level of work not ability to lead. THis effects us all.

Deleted User wrote:

How are they undercutting your work? You've decided you're only going to do the minimum. They've decided they're going to do more. Take some responsibility for your own choice not to advance the ladder of success, and stop moaning about it. [not directed at you personally, but the opinion you seem to be approving.]

If somebody came into your job and said I will do your job for half your wages . That is undercutting you becasue they will cost less and produce the same amount of work. Now if somebody comes in and says they will work twice as many hours as you that is the same. THe company pays that person less per hour as the same net result. That is undercutting and also effecting the work level expected from everybody. Do you know how hard it is to build a team spirit with one person acting like that?

I don't know how old you are but many people here are obviously just in college or their first real jobs. Solidarity with your fellow workers is important for you. I have seen the ambious type doing all the hours and sucking up and get messed over and nobody helped them out. It isn't begrudgery just getting back what you give off. How would you ever improve working conditions is some people will put up with bad working conditions in order to get a promotion.

After years of abuse in my company people simple refused to do unpaid overtime. THe management were simply managing things baddly causing people to work overtime. When that happened the company addressed the planning problems and thus removed the need for overtime.

04-05-2006 02:04PM

Well maybe you never worked with people I have worked with and for. You aren't given a choice. If you say no to an unreasonable request you are seen as a bad worker.

I've had some jobs with quite awful requirements regarding hours to be worked. But since I left college, all my jobs have had a contract signed which stipulated my basic positions details, and I'm protected under law against unreasonable requirements. None of the professional positions I've worked in have requested anything that crossed that boundary. Jobs before contracts, did, but thats what i expected, and part of the reason I chose to work in offices.

I will always be able to point to the results of my job, and if unsatisfied move to another position. My job experience, and variety of positions works for me.

I don't agree. Many people are promoted for putting up with unreasonable and illegal work conditions. If you hire such people to be managers you end up with constant unreasonable expectations. Hard worker does not equal good manager proved time and time again so no it doesn't make sense

Illegal? Where are you getting this from? Guesswork? If its illegal, get another job. That option is there. If you'd rather not leave, speak to your manager. If problem persists, quit. I've done so for other reasons, and have achieved quite a decent amount of success without being very ambitious. That said I recognise the connection between being successful in my position and any promotions/wage increases.

If your manager thinks people should all work as hard as they did or the person trying to get their job it certainly does effect you. I have seen this many times before. Irish business often hire people unsuitable for management or promotion based on level of work not ability to lead. THis effects us all.

Not really. Its a management perception, and as long as you perform your position efficiently you'll be fine. I've been both at the giving and receiving end of this.

Unless you're talking about working in a department store or such. My experience is from an office environment.

If somebody came into your job and said I will do your job for half your wages . That is undercutting you becasue they will cost less and produce the same amount of work. Now if somebody comes in and says they will work twice as many hours as you that is the same. THe company pays that person less per hour as the same net result. That is undercutting and also effecting the work level expected from everybody. Do you know how hard it is to build a team spirit with one person acting like that?

And thats a problem with your company's work ethic. They're the ones screwing with the team spirit. But then as long as I do my job I know I'm ok.

I don't know how old you are but many people here are obviously just in college or their first real jobs. Solidarity with your fellow workers is important for you. I have seen the ambious type doing all the hours and sucking up and get messed over and nobody helped them out. It isn't begrudgery just getting back what you give off. How would you ever improve working conditions is some people will put up with bad working conditions in order to get a promotion.

I'm 29, almost 30. I've worked in 2 businesses since I finished college, and two in the middle of college (failed my exams and skipped a year). I've been working in my field for over 6 years. My CV is looking quite good. And I've left a company that didn't treat me the way I wanted.

People have options. its just that its easy to think you need to stay in one spot.

After years of abuse in my company people simple refused to do unpaid overtime. THe management were simply managing things baddly causing people to work overtime. When that happened the company addressed the planning problems and thus removed the need for overtime.

And rightly so. A management problem. Not an employee problem.

FillSpectre · 04-05-2006 02:46PM

Deleted User wrote:

I've had some jobs with quite awful requirements regarding hours to be worked. But since I left college, all my jobs have had a contract signed which stipulated my basic positions details, and I'm protected under law against unreasonable requirements. None of the professional positions I've worked in have requested anything that crossed that boundary. Jobs before contracts, did, but thats what i expected, and part of the reason I chose to work in offices.

Nice to have a job that can really be contracted to decide all your functions and have no over lap with other departments most people don't have that. Many people are asked to do more than their job and iff there are two people and one will cross teh bondery the other looks bad.

Deleted User wrote:

I will always be able to point to the results of my job, and if unsatisfied move to another position. My job experience, and variety of positions works for me.

Many other people do not have qunatifiable jobs like that. Many people can't move so easily. Think outside your own experinece and situation

Deleted User wrote:

Illegal? Where are you getting this from? Guesswork? If its illegal, get another job. That option is there. If you'd rather not leave, speak to your manager. If problem persists, quit. I've done so for other reasons, and have achieved quite a decent amount of success without being very ambitious. That said I recognise the connection between being successful in my position and any promotions/wage increases.

Experience. People who have commitments can't quit jobs just like that. If other employees put with bad work conditions you are in essence forced to work that way while working there.

Deleted User wrote:

Not really. Its a management perception, and as long as you perform your position efficiently you'll be fine. I've been both at the giving and receiving end of this.

Unless you're talking about working in a department store or such. My experience is from an office environment.

If you have never experineced this you are lucky. That is not the reality for many people. Offices have many differnt types of environments from a technical IT one a call centre. I have worked in many types of office companies big and small, inside and ouside.

Deleted User wrote:

And thats a problem with your company's work ethic. They're the ones screwing with the team spirit. But then as long as I do my job I know I'm ok.

It was an explanation of how it is undercutting becasue you had difficulting understanding it.

Deleted User wrote:

I'm 29, almost 30. I've worked in 2 businesses since I finished college, and two in the middle of college (failed my exams and skipped a year). I've been working in my field for over 6 years. My CV is looking quite good. And I've left a company that didn't treat me the way I wanted.

So your second real job! Not lots of experience in my eyes and you are talking about what is a proffessional white collor job. Other people work their lives in jobs that aren't so organised and clear cut. No matter where somebody works they should be treated fairly and that includes by fellow workers.

People have options. its just that its easy to think you need to stay in one spot.

Somepeople don't have options and other comittments. You should not have to leave your job when they are doing something unfair or after 20 years of working hard and sold some 25 year old who has no commitments starts doing over time for the promotion that you are capable and of proven ability to get. EU law is being brought in to stop the slippage that this does, has and would create.

Deleted User wrote:

And rightly so. A management problem. Not an employee problem.

The point was people had to tell employees to stop doing the company didn't do it. It took a long time and an individual had to leave before it was truely understood. People simply refused to do the extra hours she was doing.

You have a very narrow view of working your job sounds great and very easy in a organisation and emploer way. Others do not have this be greatful and try to think ouside your own personal situation.

THis is about begrudgery I was just pointing out that people working excessive over time like 14 hours by the OP may get negative reaction which aren't begrudgery but simple resentment on how they got the job. The OP needed to work the extra hours so they did undercut everybody elses work which is a selfish act in my eyes.

ArphaRima · 04-05-2006 05:11PM

I am rather glad that a full discussion has resulted from my simple comment. I work in a highly unionised, regulated, and controlled work environment with limits on every hour I work. I am young, but I see my future ahead, and I have mixed feelings. It's not office work but it is white collar.

Some people realise that working more hours for free costs jobs, is selfish, and alienates you from others. Others do not. They only see that it benefits them and the company. Those people are not made of teflon. You will need colleagues support in the future. It will probably not be forthcoming.

Sleepy · 04-05-2006 05:22PM

You don't work in the Public sector by any chance do you fluffer...

Saskia · 04-05-2006 09:06PM

This is more than just a work matter, although the majority of opinions seem to be based in the workplace. Id like to state Ive no airs or graces about me and try to be down to earth and as friendly with workmates as possible. Since I got this promotion I havent been invited to any of the usual drinks after office hours when beforehand I would have been, I wish this was paronia but its not.

I thought I might have changed in ego so I asked my non workmates for some very honest answers recently and they said if anything Im more perky, happy and outgoing than before. The begrudging family member is my sister who, upto now, was like a best friend more than sibling. Anytime there's talk of bills, money, holidays or anything involving money around the house she'll be quick to chip in with "sure ask Saskia (not my real name obviously), she's got plenty to go around" before following it up with a smirk and a flounce out of the room. This isnt in good jest, she simply has stopped been my friend since the promotion.

This isnt about me or my damaged ego. This isnt just about moving up in the workplace, the civil service or overtime. I posted because, again, Id like to ask people's opinions as to what is wrong with us as a nation in this regard.

Can you imagine when the SSIA's kick in??!?:o

I'll be ashamed of been Irish when they do to be honest.

The begrudgery of the Irish

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