The begrudgery of the Irish

Saskia

Im seething here and need to vent before I end up pouring coffee over a couple of workmates PCs.

Ive just gotten a hard fought promotion for which Ive sacrificed family and BF time and put in 14 hour days a few days a week in work and taking some work home with me. That makes me sound like a bleeding heart but I wanted to put some facts forward. The reaction to the recent promotion by workmates and even family members has made me think that there's something very wrong with this country when it comes to "getting on" and "moving up" (ok Im not keen on that last term of phrase either) on the work and social ladder.

I wont go into any more details as Im sure at least one other here reads Boards but I want to know this ;

why isnt there some sort of study done on us as a nation to figure this out once and for all?

I think the big multi-nationals deserve this information before they set up base here. They'll be setting up in a country where we're a nation of begrudging f*cks. Its not a generalisation, Ive worked in the same occupation in 5 different countries.

Can anyone put this down to anything from down through the years? We were oppressed for years and then are insecure when we get something good?

If not, then what?!

Cos its by far our most disgusting trait.

Saskia

Saskia wrote:

Cos its by fair our most disgusting trait.

You are kidding yourself if you think that is purely an Irish trait.

Ag marbh

Well done :rolleyes:

Ruu_Old

Yeah its not just an Irish trait, open your eyes.

Saskia

I never said it was purely an Irish trait, I said it was our worst one and much more noticeable than, say, the States where you are encouraged to better yourself.

Mexicola

Tell us more about the begrudery Saskia - was it the usual crap like 'She probably soaked corks to get to the top?" etc etc... Was it more from men or from women??

Saskia

Saskia wrote:

we're a nation of begrudging f*cks.

So you make sweeping generalisations about the nation based on one experience you have had. You think someone should have 'some sort of study' done on this for some obscure reason. Maybe they should try and figure out what percentage of the Irishman's body is nasty and what is good

Hmmmm, yes indeed...

Ruu_Old

Hmm Ive lived in the US for the last year and I havent seen anything different to what you have said, just what I have seen anyway.

Degsy

I'm sure its just as common everywhere else..you'll see an element of begrudgery in almost all sit coms,movies,plays,songs..you name it.I think where irish begrudgery is pre-eminent is that it extends to almost everything and is manifested in quite a sneaky,underhanded way.A little like the irish trait of being very bad complainers..we'll bitch and moan about a bad meal but when the waiter asks was everything okay we'll say "yes,couldnt be better"!

simu

Well, what exactly did people do to you? How did they react?

People usually begrudge those a few steps removed from them, not their own family or friends, I find. (unless there's been a falling out for some other reason).

pyramuid man

Why does it matter what everyone else thinks?
You worked hard and you got the rewards. If you are happy the that should be all that matters. Not what everyone else thinks.

tracert

The multinationals care. Talk to them.

darkman2

Saskia wrote:

Im seething here and need to vent before I end up pouring coffee over a couple of workmates PCs.

Ive just gotten a hard fought promotion for which Ive sacrificed family and BF time and put in 14 hour days a few days a week in work and taking some work home with me. That makes me sound like a bleeding heart but I wanted to put some facts forward. The reaction to the recent promotion by workmates and even family members has made me think that there's something very wrong with this country when it comes to "getting on" and "moving up" (ok Im not keen on that last term of phrase either) on the work and social ladder.

I wont go into any more details as Im sure at least one other here reads Boards but I want to know this ;

why isnt there some sort of study done on us as a nation to figure this out once and for all?

I think the big multi-nationals deserve this information before they set up base here. They'll be setting up in a country where we're a nation of begrudging f*cks. Its not a generalisation, Ive worked in the same occupation in 5 different countries.

Can anyone put this down to anything from down through the years? We were oppressed for years and then are insecure when we get something good?

If not, then what?!

Cos its by far our most disgusting trait.

I agree with you. Why do you think SF get votes at all. PPL claiming the celtic tiger dosnt exist are the ppl on the dole who think life owes them something. Dont know the meanoing of work. Begrudgers through and through. In fairness it was worse in the 80s and its nowhere near as bad now but its still a problem.

Saskia

Must be just you and me been paranoid then Darkman?

There is something wrong with us as a nation and I want to know where people thinks it stems from.

darkman2

Saskia wrote:

Must be just you and me been paranoid then Darkman?

There is something wrong with us as a nation and I want to know where people thinks it stems from.

Simply because until recently we were a very poor country and that breeds begrudgery. I think though it is getting better but only slowly:rolleyes:

Savman

darkman2 wrote:

PPL claiming the celtic tiger dosnt exist are the ppl on the dole who think life owes them something. Dont know the meanoing of work. Begrudgers through and through.

Tripe of the highest order. Many dole receivers are more than willing to work and work hard, to say "begrudgers are all on the dole" is stoopid. What's worse, a lazy fooker on the dole or a lazy fooker in your job getting paid good money for doing a half arsed job? Both spongers in the eyes of society.

There are also a lot of people who through no circumstances of their own lost their employment and have every right to feel hard done by.

darkman2

Savman wrote:

Tripe of the highest order. Many dole receivers are more than willing to work and work hard, to say "begrudgers are all on the dole" is stoopid. What's worse, a lazy fooker on the dole or a lazy fooker in your job getting paid good money for doing a half arsed job? Both spongers in the eyes of society.

There are also a lot of people who through no circumstances of their own lost their employment and have every right to feel hard done by.

'Alot of ppl who lost employment'. EH we have 'full' employment. There are jobs everywhere for gods sake. Or should we go back to the 'good aul days' of the 80s?

Also what do you mean 'your job'. You dont know where or what I do.

skyhighflyer

Saskia you are bang on. Over here, if you are successful, drive a nice car, and have a good lifestyle people begrudge you it, despite the fact that you may have worked your ass off to get where you are today. People won't compliment people on their success, rather they think "What's this guy trying to prove".

As you say, in the US things are very different. Successful people are seen rather as people to aspire to rather than people to hate.

kittex

And ex of mine dumped me the day I got a promotion as he said he couldn't deal with me making more than him.

People in Hollywood and the music industry in the States, moan they are raised only to be torn down by the begrudgers there.

Yesterday I had a long chat with a friend in Glasgow who is suffering the same experience. None of her friends have their own homes, as they spend all their money on partying, so she is being given the 'tall poppy' treatment.

I've heard a work colleague of mine complain her Romanian husband is being treated differently by his family since he got a fairly impressive job.

It is small minded to think this is a uniquely Irish problem. Human beings do not like other people doing well if they aren't doing well. It reminds them of their own failures.

slipss

Its just ridiculas to try to make out that begrudgery is just an Irish trait or that its any worse in Ireland than anywhere else in the world, its not an Irish trait its a human trait( in some people not all). You just have to look at the way people reacted to Manchester United in England in the late 90's when they were winning everything or how people in the USA talk about Bill Gates, people in general just don't like to see other people doing better than they are, thats it. But if you find that absalutley everybody you know is reacting in a begrudging way to you, even your own family maybe the problem could be with yourself and not everybody else, congrats on the promotion btw.

AngryAnderson

Er, so what? If you're friends become nasty and begrudging because you're doing well, they're not your friends. If your family are giving you a hard time, maybe your recent success has instilled some airs and graces that you didn't have before. Maybe you have a persecution complex.

ArphaRima

In my experience Irish people are quite different to Americans In exactly that way. In America a typical poor man's reaction to a person driving a porsche is "Man I'd love to be like him some day". In Ireland its more like "I'd love to kill that man some day"..
I think Irish people think all success is ill-got or undeserved.

14 hour days a few days a week

Perhaps however your workmates may have a minor point. Were you working uncontracted hours (ie unpaid) or on overtime? A colleague who did not wish to sacrifice his/her time off for unpaid work may feel betrayed by the system.

pleba

this reminds of a 'story' that Bono has told....(probably quite a bit!)

".........but it's like, in America, you look up at the house on
the hill, the mansion on the hill and say, 'One day I'm--that--that could be me.' In Ireland, they look up at the mansion on the hill and go, 'One day I'm gonna get that bastard'........"

Sleepy

I dunno, I'll begrudge someone's success if I don't rate them as being any good at the job. I'll admire it if it's someone I know to be capable. Could your co-workers possibly think they're better at the job than you because they could fit the same work into a 9 to 5 without the need for all that over-time?

Dyr

pleba wrote:

this reminds of a 'story' that Bono has told....(probably quite a bit!)

".........but it's like, in America, you look up at the house on
the hill, the mansion on the hill and say, 'One day I'm--that--that could be me.' In Ireland, they look up at the mansion on the hill and go, 'One day I'm gonna get that bastard'........"

Sadly the f****r is still walking around in one piece so this cant be true

luckat

Yeah, Saskia, you're quite right. This is an unattractive trait, and we have to discuss it and change it.

Used to be that Irish people had no money, but were known worldwide for gracious and graceful manners - travel writers through the centuries commented on how people who scarcely had the rags to stand up in would escort them into a mud cabin and treat them to everything they had.

One theory on the reason was that with the annexation of Irish land from the 16th century on, the aristocracy had become peasants, so the beautiful manners came from an aristocratic famimly in the first place. Another is that the tradition held within the language included stringent rules on correct behaviour with others.

We seem to have done a direct trade; now we have plenty of money but no manners.

And what's happened to you is really a failure of grace and manners and composure. Even if someone feels envy at another's good luck, proper training in courtesy, and its accustomed use, should allow them to smile and congratulate the lucky person.

And by the same token, hearty congratulations on your well-deserved promotion. Go mairfidh tú is go gcaithfidh tú é!

OMcGovern

To the OP:

I suspect that part of the problem is that you didn't get all the attention and praise you expected....

How would you define your problem.
Was it
a) a number of people made negative comments or
b) little or no people made positive comments

If it's (b), then you're throwing a tantrum because you want attention.
If it's (a), then maybe a number of other people have worked just as hard as you, and rightly believe they deserved the promotion just as much.

If the promotion was properly handled by the management, then the position should've been advertised openly, applications taken in, and everyone has a chance to put their case forward in an interview. But if the promotion was done in secret, behind closed doors, then others have a right to complain about the promotion policy. Although that should be directed against the management more than yourself.

regards,
Owen

Spalk0

fluffer wrote:

In America a typical poor man's reaction to a person driving a porsche is "Man I'd love to be like him some day". In Ireland its more like "I'd love to kill that man some day"..

Thats a bit of Generalistic rubbish if you ask me....

Yes there are some people that begrudge others for doing well.But that is a select few and a minority if you ask me, and i bet its the same pretty much in any other country.
I certainly dont think im gonna kill someone or have any dislike for them because they have a nice porsche ffs!All id think is 'Damn, id love that car....'
Ive an uncle who is now a millionaire and pretty much has a new flash car every time i see him.So the typical Irish reaction should be that of begrudging him?.......no no no
He worked very very hard for years and is now reaping the benifits.Fair play to him he deserves every penny.
Begrudgery stems a lot from jealousy and thats a nasty business to dwell on.

FillSpectre

I will say I do resent certain work colleges for how they do their jobs. The do things like work 14 hour days always take on more work than they can do in normal working hours etc... Yes they get promotions and are entiled to them but then they think everybody should work like them. I friends and family that is more important and I get paid to work for a certain amount of time not to live for the company. If you have a promoted boss going on about how they expect more and they did it you resent them. It is not begrudgery yet that is what some bosses think it is.
Is it wrong to begrudy sombody for making you work harder because they want to sacrfice their life for work?

I think the OP might not be loking at the issue from any other point of view than their own. Working a huge amount of hours in order to be promoted putting pressure on others or to compete with them is not admirable so will warrant other reactions.

alienhead

i hear ye.

rater than going to college, i worked and did part time courses.

by my early 20's i was working for a v reputable companay earing a v good wage.

my mates at the time werre v begrudging.

alot of irish people are like this.

i guess when you get on in life, it just highlights their own inadequacies.

fuzzywiggle

I'm not going to say that all irish people are begrudgers but I do think that just people in general are, regardless of thier nationality. IMO a lot of people don't like to see anyone else ahead of them, don't like to see other people achieving success in what ever area of their lives. I think they're just low minded and I pay no attention to people like that, neither should you OP. Well done on the promotion and more luck to you!

Tha Gopher

I remember Noel Gallagher was on Jonathan Ross show one night, and was asked why he ran to London as soon as he became famous instead of staying in Manchester. He replied that he was sick of going into local pubs he had been a regular at since he was 16, and being called a flash git if he bought everyone a drink, and a tight bastard if he didnt.

The fact that half of Manchester has an Irish surname probably proves Saskias point.

Actully OP, for someone hoping nobody in work will recognise her post, Saskia is a pretty rare name:( Id be hpoing that somewhere in Ireland theres 20 more girls of your name who have just got promoted and have only received sh1te from their colleagues

Jix

Morrissey - "We hate it when our friends become successful."
I think luckat hit the nail on the head by saying it seems to be a failure of grace & manners. Feelings of envy and jealousy are perfectly natural but in the interest of good manners people tend not to act on these emotions. Rather than having more begrudgering tendencies than others, maybe, just maybe, we are rude.

stovelid

Its pointless to say that people have reacted badly to your promotion but to be so vague about the details.

While begrudgery certainly exists (outside Ireland as well), sometimes it is used as a vague, indefinate response to people who either don't care about your goals or who have been sidelined in pursuit of them.

I'm not saying this applies to you of course, just that its impossible to know what to believe from the vague original post.

fluffer

fluffer wrote:

Perhaps however your workmates may have a minor point. Were you working uncontracted hours (ie unpaid) or on overtime? A colleague who did not wish to sacrifice his/her time off for unpaid work may feel betrayed by the system.

God fobid that she work hard, and look to achieve success rather than waiting for it to be handed to her. The problem I see is that many Irish people expect to get promotions or better wages from doing the bare minimum, without trying to excell at their jobs. (I understand you weren't making the point that she was wrong, but your post got me thinking)

Its like when we were in school. The people that studied hard for the best grades (not that I was one of them) were nerds, and when they got better college placements they were dismissed because they had no lives. Same in college. Same in work.

If you put in the extra effort to get a promotion, many workers seem to think you're betraying the community of workers.

When I bought my house, i had a number of friends turn their noses at me because I had done what they hadn't managed to do themselves. I've seen similiar with a friend who bought a BMV Z4 at 26. People have dismissed him, because he's done better than them in life.

There's a nasty condition with many Irish people where they see anyone displaying success or wealth as being a bad thing. We seem to believe we should hide our success. Rediculous I know.........

leeroybrown

As pointed out throughout this thread you've failed to give any examples.

When you got promoted you probably annoyed some colleagues who felt that they were equally deserving of a promotion. They could be annoyed with themselves for not getting a promotion or your employer for not recognising them which will come across in their demeanor. Some people will view the 14 hour days you were putting in as brown-nosing that made their positions more awkward and difficult. If that's the case then they may well be justified in being annoyed with you. Perhaps they think that you have made it such that a 14 hour working day is needed for promotion.

Personally speaking I don't have any problem with a colleague doing long hard days to get a promtion.

kittex wrote:

And ex of mine dumped me the day I got a promotion as he said he couldn't deal with me making more than him.

That's insecurity not begrudgery. Theres a big difference.

FillSpectre

Deleted User wrote:

If you put in the extra effort to get a promotion, many workers seem to think you're betraying the community of workers.

Maybe you missed the point of what I and Fluffer have made. If somebody makes the work environment a place where excessive overtime is the only way to get a promotion they ARE betraying the community of workers. If you can't get the promotion without working excessively over the hours you are meant to you aren't better than anybody else you are more commited to work. If a college who is more capable can do more work than you to a better standard in the same time should they not deserve the promotion?

The OP may not be looking at the entire picture. Family memebers can be well annoyed if you missed an important event or may see the greed involved in making work conditions worse for other people working in the company.

I worked with one guy who used to be in work for excessive hours without need and the boss took this as a hard worker. The truth was he did nothing during the day and then workedhard in his overtime. As a result his work was substandard and when a fellow college had it out with him he called them a begrudger for his promotion. It took a year before the boss realised the guy did nothing and actually cost the company time.

Cianos

I dont buy the excuse that the co-workers could just be pissed off because they feel that by her working above and beyond the call of duty it makes them look bad. She had the motivation and dedication to work hard to achieve what she has achieved. From the employers perspective who's going to be the obvious choice? While they are co-workers, in some aspects they are competing against eachother...thats just the way it is so they should just live with it and admit defeat and dont begrudge someone for being duly rewarded.

Cianos

FillSpectre wrote:

Maybe you missed the point of what I and Fluffer have made. If somebody makes the work environment a place where excessive overtime is the only way to get a promotion they ARE betraying the community of workers. If you can't get the promotion without working excessively over the hours you are meant to you aren't better than anybody else you are more commited to work. If a college who is more capable can do more work than you to a better standard in the same time should they not deserve the promotion?

The OP may not be looking at the entire picture. Family memebers can be well annoyed if you missed an important event or may see the greed involved in making work conditions worse for other people working in the company.

I worked with one guy who used to be in work for excessive hours without need and the boss took this as a hard worker. The truth was he did nothing during the day and then workedhard in his overtime. As a result his work was substandard and when a fellow college had it out with him he called them a begrudger for his promotion. It took a year before the boss realised the guy did nothing and actually cost the company time.

If they are working "over-time" just to make it look like they are doing loads of work then that is obviously not cool. But different people have different ways of working. Some people can sit down in one go and do loads of work, whereas others work better by spacing it out over longer periods of time. It doesnt matter who is working what hours in relation to a day/week. It should matter about who is doing the best work overall.

FillSpectre

Cianos wrote:

It should matter about who is doing the best work overall.

Yes it should be but it isn't. Say if you have a young child and have to keep to regular working hours. If somebody else is doing overtime you can't by sacrificing thier personal life how do you compare quality of work? Bosses will go for the person in the office or produced the most work.
I know of jobs where one person did the job and after they left it is realised that their wasn't enough work for one person or that their needs to be two people doing the job to cover the hours of somebody needing to be in the office for clients.
Working unpaid overtime is bad for the people you work with and yourself. It is selfish unless absolutely nesseary. If you regualrly have to do unpaid overtime you are being taken advantage of and you make working life bad for others.

Cianos

If someone wants to progress in their career faster there is nothing wrong with putting in the extra work to be noticed. As long as they are doing it honourably and are not taking advantage of the situation.

There is enough bitching and two-faced carry on in the workplace used in order to get one over on workmates. The fact that someone is willing to put in the hard work to achieve better things is only a good thing imo.

mayhem#

ronoc wrote:

You are kidding yourself if you think that is purely an Irish trait.

But the irish seem to have turned it into a national pastime...

E.

FillSpectre

Cianos wrote:

If someone wants to progress in their career faster there is nothing wrong with putting in the extra work to be noticed. As long as they are doing it honourably and are not taking advantage of the situation.

There is enough bitching and two-faced carry on in the workplace used in order to get one over on workmates. The fact that someone is willing to put in the hard work to achieve better things is only a good thing imo.

You are missing the point. It isn't that other people can choose not to work unpaid overtime it is they can't.iF it was just willingness that would be still bad the reality is by doing so you are simply undercutting everybodies wages in order to get personal gain. Do you understand this and just dismiss it?
A married man with two kids can't do what a single person can without a social life. THe father should not have to sacrifice his life because someboduy is undercutting them.
I must admit when I was younger I thiought it was fair but now I see how it is not fair and is against your fellow employees.

Sleepy

While I can see your point Fill, I'm not necessarily sure it's unfair of someone to work unpaid overtime provided they're working to full capacity during their regular shift. Sure, a family man can't work the hours of a single twentysomething but it was his own decision to have a family. If this holds back his career prospects, that's the opportunity cost he has to pay for having a family. Similarly, if the twentysomething works the unpaid over-time, his social life is the opportunity cost he pays for it.

Siogfinsceal

The Ant & the Grasshopper - A Modern Fable
>CLASSIC VERSION:
>
>The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer
>long, building his house and laying up supplies for
>the winter.
>
>The grasshopper thinks he's a fool, and laughs and
>dances and plays the summer away.
>
>Come winter, the Ant is warm and well fed.
>
>The shivering grasshopper has no food or shelter, so
>he dies out in the cold.
>
>THE END.
>
>
>
>THE IRISH VERSION:
>
>The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer
>long, building his house and laying up supplies for
>the winter.
>
>The grasshopper thinks he's a fool, and laughs and
>dances and plays the summer away.
>
>Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed.
>
>So far, so good, eh?
>
>
>
>
>
>The shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and
>demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be
>warm and well fed while others less fortunate, like
>him, are cold and starving.
>
>RTE shows up to provide live coverage of the
>shivering grasshopper, with cuts to a video of the ant
>in his comfortable warm home in Kildare with a table
>laden with food.
>
>The Irish are stunned that in a country of such
>wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so
>while others have plenty.
>
>
>
>The Labour Party, Sinn Fein, The Greens, The
>Transvestites With Starving Babies Party, the Single
>Lesbian One Eyed Mothers Party and the Coalition
>Against Poverty demonstrate in front of the ant's
>house.
>
>RTE, interrupting a Rastafarian cultural festival
>special from Waterford with breaking news, broadcasts
>them singing "We Shall Overcome."
>
>
>Tony Gregory laments in an interview with Prime Time
>that the ant has got rich off the backs of
>grasshoppers, and calls for an immediate tax hike on
>the ant to make him pay his "fair share".
>
>In response, Michael Mc Dowell drafts the
>Economic Equity and Grasshopper Anti-Discrimination
>Act, retroactive to the beginning of the summer.
>
>The ant's taxes are reassessed, and he is also fined
>for failing to Hire grasshoppers as helpers. Without
>enough money to pay the fine and his newly imposed
>retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by Kildare County
>Council.
>
>
>
>The ant moves to France, and starts a successful
>AgriBiz company [funded by the EU] (although within
>weeks, his business is threatened with Compulsory
>purchase by the state unless he marries a French ant).
>
>
>
>RTE later shows the now fat grasshopper finishing
>up the last of the ant's food, though Spring is still
>months away, while the government house he is in,
>which just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles
>around him because he hasn't bothered to maintain it.
>Inadequate government funding is blamed, Diane Abbot
>is appointed to head a commission of enquiry that will
>cost E10,000,000.
>
>
>
>The grasshopper is soon dead of a drug overdose, the
>Guardian blames it on the obvious failure of
>government to address the root causes of despair
>arising from social inequity. The abandoned house is
>taken over by a Gang of immigrant spiders, praised by
>the government for enriching Irelands multicultural
>diversity, who promptly set up a marijuana growing
>Operations and terrorize the community.
>
>
>
>THE END .

kittex

leeroybrown wrote:

That's insecurity not begrudgery. Theres a big difference.

Is that not what begrudging is at the end of the day?

Begrudging behaviour is rooted in jealousy and insecurity.
If people were happy and confident with their own life and achievements, they wouldn't need to take away anything from other people.

Sleepy

What if those other people have gotten their achievements at the expense of the begrudger?

TBH, I can understand begrudgery if the person gaining the achievements are doing so undeservedly. And in those cases, I can't really condemn anyone for feeling that way.

Saskia

I cant see how the amount of hours Ive worked has to do with anything? Overtime is there for everyone if they want it. This isnt a work issue, its one about Irish attitudes. Great post Siogfinsceal, it sums up how much Ireland is screwed but it does it with some humour at least.

nesf

Saskia wrote:

I cant see how the amount of hours Ive worked has to do with anything? Overtime is there for everyone if they want it.

No it isn't. Some companies allow it, some don't. The ones that don't generally don't want to pay you overtime. Some just actively discourage it by being nasty and closing up when people finish work at 5.30. Inconsiderate buggers!

Saskia wrote:

This isnt a work issue, its one about Irish attitudes. Great post Siogfinsceal, it sums up how much Ireland is screwed but it does it with some humour at least.

I disagree. This seems to be more an issue about your need for adulation and the lack thereof, but let's not get off-topic. I don't disagree with you that quite a few people in this country begrudge other's sucess. It's some messed up anti-wealth thing or something. I wouldn't jump the gun and blame it for your particular situation. It's probably a lot more complicated than that (the very fact you think in terms of "social ladders" could be what got under some people's skin. That is something that seems to drive certain individuals nuts).

Saskia wrote:

Begrudging behaviour is rooted in jealousy and insecurity.
If people were happy and confident with their own life and achievements, they wouldn't need to take away anything from other people.

Not necessarily. Some people might genuinely believe that you don't deserve the promotion, ie they could have little respect for you or something. Not necessarily insecurity usually just plain old arrogance.

Saskia

mayhem# wrote:

But the irish seem to have turned it into a national pastime...

E.

Well that and drinking as a sport.

Saskia

Cianos wrote:

There is enough bitching and two-faced carry on in the workplace used in order to get one over on workmates. The fact that someone is willing to put in the hard work to achieve better things is only a good thing imo.

Exactly, why shouldnt my sacrifices have an upside? Competition among workmates is encouraged in the States, actually, overall - bloody capitalism is encouraged!

Nesf I'll reply to you later, gotta get back on that "social ladder" for now :rolleyes: