Revenge?

Zulu · 28-04-2006 12:38PM

ambro25 wrote:

And then there's 'judgement' passed by others which, frankly, is misplaced

I disagree. We live in a society. We are social creatures. Our standing amongst our peers is important to us.

Second, to a slighted person, it's that person who has been slighted, not onlookers... So who-the-f*ck cares what others think,

Well to be honest, it's far more important for me, what I think of myself. To me, I do not wish to be a spiteful person; I do not wish to carry out cowardly attacks on a person I've little respect for, and if for some reason I'm aggravated enough to seek justice, I'll seek it openly. People will perceive me for who I am.
That's the point I was trying to get across.

e.g. that such a person would be "spiteful", if vengeance -to a greater or lesser extent- is required as part of the slighted person's psychological healing process?

I don't think there's a therapist or psychologist in the world that would recommend vengeance as a form of "psychological" healing. A sense of justice helps, but the pursuit of vengeance is unhealthy - particularly in a cowardly/devious way.

it's a personal thing, which does not call for judgment (yay-ing or nay-ing) by others, who would be best advised to mind their own affairs instead of scrutinizing that of others, and who could not in any objective way experience the slight the way the aggrieved person has.

Three things:
1) you are a member of your society
2) it's for yourself you carry out these actions, and its the actions you carry out that make you who you are
3) If you post on an internet fourm...

All well and good to profer women's magazine parapsychology to depict 'vengeance' as a baaad thing to do... but there's only so much "offering the left cheek" any one person is ever willing to do before reaching their own personal threshold of tolerance and tipping over to the 'dark side'.

"Women's magazine parapsychology" - did I hit a raw nerve? or are you just trying to rise me for another reason? perhaps because your main point is based entirely on small minded concepts? See my above point on being cowardly, and how I'd seek justice.

Zulu · 28-04-2006 12:43PM

ambro25, just after seeing your "edit" now.
Case a: 2 & 3
Case b: 2 (and it's hardly 50/50 - why was I dismissed)
lets try and keep this on topic please.
By the by, how old are you?

Katykaboom - good to hear, she's a feisty one! ...and love does indeed make people crazy.

28-04-2006 12:44PM

Zulu wrote:

What? Your ex was seeing someone else and you were considering revenge?!? Revenge? For what??

we had been seeing each other again for a while

Merrick · 28-04-2006 12:46PM

coolsmileygirl wrote:

we had been seeing each other again for a while

Oh dear, that sort of situation is bound to get messy.

28-04-2006 12:50PM

Merrick wrote:

Oh dear, that sort of situation is bound to get messy.

Yeah but it worked itself out and i'm happy anyway

Katykaboom · 28-04-2006 12:56PM

I just dont understand why men do it ( not saying girls dont) like this girl is a drop dead stunner, has her own car, is independent, has one of theeeee most down to earth personalities I have ever come across, doesnt care what othere people think (obviously). Most fellas I know are crazy about her. why people feel the need to do the dirt is beyond me.

pbsuxok1znja4r · 28-04-2006 01:04PM

ambro25 wrote:

Second, to a slighted person, it's that person who has been slighted, not onlookers. They don't have to get on with their lives after the slight, that person has. So who-the-f*ck cares what others think, e.g. that such a person would be "spiteful", if vengeance -to a greater or lesser extent- is required as part of the slighted person's psychological healing process? Again, that was mainly my point earlier on: it's a personal thing, which does not call for judgment (yay-ing or nay-ing) by others,

Many things do not "call" for judgment from others, but always recieve it nonetheless. I find that very often, the people who are the most desperate to portray themselves as "not caring what others think", are, in fact, the ones who care the most.
My opinion is that of course one should care what (certain) others think. We're all people living life together; interacting, etc, and in practice it does affect you, it matters what others think of you. There's nothing wrong with that.
There is of course a difference between not caring what others think full stop, and not caring if others think one particular thing about you, i.e. that you are spiteful/desperately petty, etc.
When a partner betrays or cheats, there are two kinds of people - those who need revenge, and then there are those who are satisfied without it. Revenge does not involve gaining pleasure, it invovles satisfying a kind of deficiency in satisfaction. It takes a dull-minded person not to realise that 99 times out of 100, revenge does nothing but waste more of the "victims" time, energy, and emotion.

Merrick · 28-04-2006 01:05PM

I guess if the guy's not happy he's not happy, no matter how down to earth or gorgeous she is. I'm not saying it's right for him to stray at all though, the guy should just finish it if he's after someone else.

ambro25 · 28-04-2006 01:20PM

FillSpectre wrote:

AMbro your stories mean nothing. The girl picked the wrong boyfriend and she needs to move on. A simple answer to the your quizz of silly stories is you do the right thing not the petty revenge thing.

Correct - they are 'case studies' for thread readers, if they are so enclined, to consider and in respect of which they can indicate whether they exact revenge, or go the 'formal' way about redress for the tort, or just do nothing.

As I stated, it's a little experiment, nothing more. But there's two ways to consider the 'right thing' : the socially-acceptable 'right thing' (such as exemplified by Zulu later on) and the personally-dictated 'right thing' (such as discussed by scouser.tommy later on).

Revenge doesn't have to be petty (or cowardly, as Zulu put it). What if the tort itself is perceived as cowardly in the first place? Revenge is, to the person exacting it, usually commensurate with how wronged that person feels that she has been.

And I am loathe to repeat, yet again, that it's for this reason that it is a personal matter: could be that, considering a particular tort and identical circumstances, person A feels it is a mere slight and person B is mortally offended. In which case person A might or might not go the 'formal way' but certainly not exact revenge, but person B would go at it disproportionally. So whereas two standards (A/B) are applied to question of revenge, society as a whole only ever applies one and the same (revenge is wrong, unnecessary, wasteful, etc, etc.). To me, that just negates (represses?) the individuality of a person.

Get one thing right: I'm not advocating revenge in general (i.e. "thou shall always exact revenge!", revenge is always good for the soul and all that crap), I'm just trying to have an educated discussion about it. And my point is simple: revenge is entirely individual to a person, and will depend on squillions of factors, from way back down the background of a person to the perception and circumstances of the wrong just now committed. Much the same way as the A/B case above, there will be just as many onlookers who will either condemn or condone an act of revenge!

FillSpectre wrote:

Only children and the immature act with the vegence you are describing. If you are wronged illegally address the matter that way. Justice is not revenge.

Only children and the immature see the world and it's affairs in black and white. I didn't described any 'vengeance', note -just the choice of exacting revenge or not, nothing more. Justice is indeed not revenge (well... could be construed as such - it is a 'reaction' to a tort, after all), but justice doesn't often repair the tort to the tunme of what the wronged person is expecting: witness for instance the all-too frequent case of parents with a murdered kid, and for which murder the perps most often get medium to light single-digit prison sentences.

Zulu wrote:

I disagree. <snip>That's the point I was trying to get across.

All in your honour, and good for you, and point understood a ways back in the thread. And that's not a jibe

It's just not mine (point), so we may be at cross-purposes here.

Zulu wrote:

I don't think there's a therapist or psychologist in the world that would recommend vengeance as a form of "psychological" healing. A sense of justice helps, but the pursuit of vengeance is unhealthy - particularly in a cowardly/devious way.

There is such a thing as professional liability, you know - of course no therapist is going to recommend it, they'd be liable! :rolleyes:
Zulu, who is speaking about "cowardly/devious ways"?

Zulu wrote:

Three things:
1) you are a member of your society
2) it's for yourself you carry out these actions, and its the actions you carry out that make you who you are
3) If you post on an internet fourm....

and... what?

"Women's magazine parapsychology" - did I hit a raw nerve? (etc.)

Not at all - inoffensive, good-natured rib, my apologies if you were offended.

zulu wrote:

Case b: 2 (and it's hardly 50/50 - why was I dismissed)

You don't have much experience of employment tribunals, do you?

faceman · 28-04-2006 01:23PM

Manolo Blahnik wrote:

If someone did something like that to me I'd stay calm although I'd be dying inside. To act like it doesn't really bother you and you don't want anything to do with them, would hurt them more.

Doing stupid stuff like that isn't revenge isn't satisying enough. It makes it look like you're a mean person anyway.

Always stay calm.

I totally agree i once regretably cheated on someone and thats what she did to me. Was far more effective in soul destroying me than seekin revenge.

Like someone said already if u try get revenge then its u who will end up with the bad name. Alot of ppl cheat in relationships and society accepts that. its the revenge artists who get the psycho name.

faceman · 28-04-2006 01:27PM

Katykaboom wrote:

I just dont understand why men do it ( not saying girls dont) like this girl is a drop dead stunner, has her own car, is independent, has one of theeeee most down to earth personalities I have ever come across, doesnt care what othere people think (obviously). Most fellas I know are crazy about her. why people feel the need to do the dirt is beyond me.

I have 5 words for u: Hugh Grant and Divine Brown.

Just how cud he!!!

ambro25 · 28-04-2006 01:36PM

faceman wrote:

I have 5 words for u: Hugh Grant and Divine Brown.

Just how cud he!!!

Is it because Liz wouldn't smoke cigar?

But that was hardly revenge. Was it intended as such?

FillSpectre · 28-04-2006 01:38PM

ambro25 wrote:

Get one thing right: I'm not advocating revenge in general (i.e. "thou shall always exact revenge!", revenge is always good for the soul and all that crap), I'm just trying to have an educated discussion about it. And my point is simple: revenge is entirely individual to a person, and will depend on squillions of factors, from way back down the background of a person to the perception and circumstances of the wrong just now committed. Much the same way as the A/B case above, there will be just as many onlookers who will either condemn or condone an act of revenge!

You are trying to justify revenge. Going to massive lengths to do it too. You are not doing it in an educated informed view either. The point is anybody who is willing to take revenge over their personal justification on such a small issue as not having thier relationship last they would easily be considered a loon. You think it has no effect on the individual image I don't agree ANd as at least half the people here have mentioned it would effect their view of somebody it is clear it would effect them.

ambro25 wrote:

Only children and the immature see the world and it's affairs in black and white. I didn't described any 'vengeance', note -just the choice of exacting revenge or not, nothing more. Justice is indeed not revenge (well... could be construed as such - it is a 'reaction' to a tort, after all), but justice doesn't often repair the tort to the tunme of what the wronged person is expecting: witness for instance the all-too frequent case of parents with a murdered kid, and for which murder the perps most often get medium to light single-digit prison sentences.

Maybe you should look up the word vegence. AS you are advocating revenge your bias cases are obviously an attempt to push the idea of vegence or revenge if you would like.

I am not into arguing with people who just want attention so I won't bother reply to what will probably be hints at how I am stupid and you are having a balanced arguement that I can't handel. You aren't balanced and really long winded child like scenarios are not proving your point

ambro25 · 28-04-2006 01:55PM

FillSpectre wrote:

(...) The point is anybody who is willing to take revenge over their personal justification on such a small issue as not having thier relationship last they would easily be considered a loon.

No sorry, can't have that: the OP stated that revenge was exacted because the BF had been sleeping around, not just "not having the relationship last". That's a perceived wrong in anyone's book. Get your facts right.

My point is the degree to which such a wrong would be 'wrong' to the aggrieved person, i.e. to the extent of self-justifying revenge to that aggrieved person (I never posted anything to the effect that she was right to exact revenge or not - read the thread, please).

FillSpectre wrote:

You think it has no effect on the individual image I don't agree ANd as at least half the people here have mentioned it would effect their view of somebody it is clear it would effect them.

Half the people here can tell me a bath in the Liffey is good for my health, doesn't mean I'll jump in it. Think for yourself, not by others :rolleyes:

I don't think it has no effect on the individual image: it has effect both on the image you have of yourself, and the image others have of you. The question is which is of most importance to you, as an individual and a society member: to me, the first is more important. And I fully acceopt that to others, the reverse may be just as true.

Remember: fact and degree. From personal experience: to a few people, 4 or 5, I'm the devil incarnate (but could have been, and was for years, a staunch supportive colleague, even as far as to say a friend - until they wronged to the extent that I deemed they were fair game), to hundreds of others, I'm the milk of the Earth: it's not because I have on very rare occasion chosen to exact revenge (and many more occasions chosen not to, for many reasons rightly stated in the thread already: waste of time, effort, unnecessary aggro', etc.), that I cannot discuss it in a dispassionate/unbiased manner.

Always and again: an individual matter, and facts, degree and circumstances.

FillSpectre wrote:

Maybe you should look up the word vegence. AS you are advocating revenge your bias cases are obviously an attempt to push the idea of vegence or revenge if you would like.

But I'm not. Can't you read? I'm not justifying it, I'm debating why and where and how revenge happens, and how in the case of the OP maybe she felt justified at the time (not anymore now, and that's to her credit indeed).

FillSpectre wrote:

I am not into arguing with people who just want attention so I won't bother reply to what will probably be hints at how I am stupid and you are having a balanced arguement that I can't handel. You aren't balanced and really long winded child like scenarios are not proving your point

Where-oh-where have I attacked you? Why the aggro? Because you disagree with my posts?

tbh · 28-04-2006 02:17PM

Katykaboom wrote:

I just dont understand why men do it ( not saying girls dont) like this girl is a drop dead stunner, has her own car, is independent, has one of theeeee most down to earth personalities I have ever come across, doesnt care what othere people think (obviously). Most fellas I know are crazy about her. why people feel the need to do the dirt is beyond me.

its the old adage Katy - no matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is sick of her ****.

At the end of the day, revenge is all about taking back some sort of self-respect. "He dumped me, so I cut off his balls" "she lied to me, so I ate all her nail polish". I'm not going to judge myself by what people do to me. If a g/f does the dirt on me, then she's the arsehole, not me, and I don't need to "take the power back" by doing something stupid to her car.

for example.

Zulu · 28-04-2006 02:28PM

ambro25 wrote:

Correct - they are 'case studies' for thread readers, if they are so enclined, to consider and in respect of which they can indicate whether they exact revenge, or go the 'formal' way about redress for the tort, or just do nothing.

ok fair enough (thats why I answered), but you're straying off course, way off course. (And, it could be argued that you're trying to build a straw man.)

the socially-acceptable 'right thing' (such as exemplified by Zulu later on) and the personally-dictated 'right thing' (such as discussed by scouser.tommy later on).

Well in fairness, I'd argue that my choice is personally-dictated, and, because it's deemed right by society, it's socially- acceptable

(ie: there is no difference - there is only the 'right thing'.)

Revenge doesn't have to be petty (or cowardly, as Zulu put it). What if the tort itself is perceived as cowardly in the first place?

Well I was referring to the original example. The attack of the bebo page, the threaten conversation to the mother - both petty; both cowardly.

And I am loathe to repeat, yet again, that it's for this reason that it is a personal matter: could be that, considering a particular tort and identical circumstances, person A feels it is a mere slight and person B is mortally offended. In which case person A might or might not go the 'formal way' but certainly not exact revenge, but person B would go at it disproportionally.

Well this is it - everything is personal. So the actions of person a/b determine person a/b. All these pains are perceived by the individual, so they are all relative. The fact that person a reacts in one way is solely down to the reason that person a is that type of person. So a petty person will act in a petty way. The only way to change this is to act in the way you want to be

I'm just trying to have an educated discussion about it. And my point is simple: revenge is entirely individual to a person, and will depend on squillions of factors, from way back down the background of a person to the perception and circumstances of the wrong just now committed.

I know, and I agree that revenge is individual, but it determines actions determine who the person is - that the important factor.

Only children and the immature see the world and it's affairs in black and white.

Well now, adults can also argue that there is right and that there is wrong. If you are serious about having a civil debate, be careful with the veiled insults.

There is such a thing as professional liability, you know - of course no therapist is going to recommend it, they'd be liable! :rolleyes:

That's not much of a defence. :rolleyes: The simple fact of the matter is that they won't.
Feel free to prove it wrong, or acknowledge that it's right.

and... what?

Sorry - that was in relation to your point about being judged.

Not at all - inoffensive, good-natured rib, my apologies if you were offended.

No worries - taught you were looking for a rise.

You don't have much experience of employment tribunals, do you?

I can have a SIPTU organiser join the debate if you'd like

Suffice to say, in your case study, I'd feel very confident.

Katykaboom · 28-04-2006 02:48PM

faceman wrote:

I have 5 words for u: Hugh Grant and Divine Brown.

Just how cud he!!!

That is so true. the mysteries of the universe ey?? maybe Liz was just crap in the sack

ambro25 · 28-04-2006 03:58PM

Zulu wrote:

ok fair enough (thats why I answered), but you're straying off course, way off course. (And, it could be argued that you're trying to build a straw man.)

OK - my digression, forget the examples. I mistakenly thought they could add something to the debate, they didn't - so there.

Well I was referring to the original example. The attack of the bebo page, the threaten conversation to the mother - both petty; both cowardly.

Petty, perhaps, although I'll pass on that, and see below why. Cowardly, I don't know: after all, both intended revenge acts were/would have been 'immediate' to speak: the BF would have first-hand experience of the effects of same, first when accessing his bebo page and second when next visiting his ma.

Cowardly, to me, is more like shopping the BF to the Tax Office about his nixing or equivalent... i.e. involving an unrelated third party to carry out the revenge act on behalf. I'm not counting the BF's Ma as a third party because, if he introduced the then-GF to his Ma, then of course he should be expecting her to call his Ma (or at least envisage the possibility thereof) if he's going to be a d1ck- the fact that he apparently thinks with his gonads first, speaks volume in this respect.

Well this is it - everything is personal. So the actions of person a/b determine person a/b. All these pains are perceived by the individual, so they are all relative. The fact that person a reacts in one way is solely down to the reason that person a is that type of person. So a petty person will act in a petty way. The only way to change this is to act in the way you want to be
I know, and I agree that revenge is individual, but it determines actions determine who the person is - that the important factor.

Agreed to a large extent BUT you do not consider degree and your take on this is still judgmental (e.g. "So a petty person will act in a petty way").

For instance, most posters in this thread have been quick to lambast the jilted GF as petty and immature (until it was posted that she had apologised: suddenly, everything was OK..sorry, forgiven-another societal precept?)

yet, for all they know, she could be a social model at any time other than when suffering from emotional distress (presumably large emotional distress to boot), and this dimension of her (totally-unknown) personality was totally glossed over: everything that has been considered were her reported actions, and nothing else, and those were used to quickly sum her up pretty arbitrarily in absence of any further details, circumstances, etc, etc. - that was, and remains, my problem.

So she reacted badly to being 2-timed. Doesn't mean she would react as badly to being cut up on the road. Or that she'd react as badly to being sacked or whatnot... But somehow it's enough to convict her of being petty :rolleyes:

And that's why I have attempted to post about the motivations and the main personal element of 'revenge'.

That's not much of a defence. :rolleyes: The simple fact of the matter is that they won't. Feel free to prove it wrong, or acknowledge that it's right.

I'll not prove it wrong - it's right to state that psydocs do not advocate revenge (most psydocs would agree that anger is a normal and healthy emotion, but that it should be managed before it becomes channelled into revenge). It's also right to state that a psydoc telling a client to exact revenge to sate their emotional distress would engage his professional liability in doing so.

Zulu · 28-04-2006 04:29PM

ambro25 wrote:

yet, for all they know, she could be a social model at any time ...

Well you see thats the reality of the real world.
It's how you act when you are down that defines would you are. Everyone can be happy and nice when it's all going good, but it's the true character traits that shine through when a person is down.

...that's just who you are.

ambro25 · 28-04-2006 04:54PM

Zulu wrote:

Well you see thats the reality of the real world. It's how you act when you are down that defines would you are.

It was my understanding of all things Real Life®-related, that you are whatever/whoever you are at any point of time in your life, and that what forms you as a person are your experiences, good and bad.

We can trade platitudes all afternoon

Doesn't change the fact that a person generally considered by its peers to be not petty (in good times as in bad) will, by the tone and content of this thread, be lined up against a wall and summarily petty'ed and cowardly'ed if such a person ever exacted any form of 'revenge' irrespective of the reason or their habitual character. Am I wrong?

Don't matter. To all, enjoy the fine weather and @ OP, tell your GF to get out and get her fill of rays & dress "springly" - she'll be back on her relationship feet in no time.

Revenge?

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