satanism

solidgear · 27-04-2006 2:15am #1

Is satanism alive & well in Ireland? How does one find out about it here?

Nevyn · 27-04-2006 1:14pm

I have never meet a statanist or anyone professioning to be one ever.
I have meet people who gain an dintrest and go and read up on it but at is all.

solidgear · 27-04-2006 2:14pm

Thank you for your reply Thaedydal.

joseph dawton · 27-04-2006 2:19pm

If you were to meet an actual Satanist I doubt that they are the types to sit down and discuss it with you over a nice cup of tea? This is not tiddly winks, anyone who actually believes in this and follows it as a 'spiritual' path is obviously a dangerous person and hence I would advise you not to play with fire. There are plenty of interesting books available from amazon on the subject, a somewhat safer if not so exciting option.

http://www.electricpublications.com

DarkJager · 27-04-2006 2:32pm

I am a Satanist and I am not ashamed to admit it. There is nothing evil about satanism and most of what people conceive it to be, is pure Hollywood fiction. I would be a follower of the Luciferian traditions of satanism, the other "brand" being the teachings of Anton LaVey, a man who I personally detest for downgrading true satanism to nothing more than a fad for angst ridden teenagers...

The Satanist culture in Ireland is relatively small, with Luciferian followers being somewhere in the region of around 400. We do not drink blood, we do not sacrifice animals (this is done simply by mentally unstable people tagging their hatred for such innocence on our religion). If any of you wish to know more, please feel free to ask me... Open minds with the right information are better than closed minds with the wrong...

Dave! · 27-04-2006 3:03pm

What would be your main beliefs, in a nutshell, DarkJager? I mean, do you believe in the Bible? Lucifer was an angel who got kicked out of heaven, etc? Do you pray? To who, Lucifer?

(try not to link me to another page, I could search but I'd prefer if you could explain your own beliefs)

DarkJager · 27-04-2006 3:13pm

Hello DaveMcG,

In response to your questions here are my answers..

- What are your main beliefs?

1. Indulgence, not abstinence.
2. Vital existence, not spiritual pipe dreams.
3. Undefiled wisdom, not hypocritical self-deceit.
4. Kindness to those deserving of it, not love wasted on ingrates.
5. Vengeance, not turning the other cheek.
6. Responsibility to the responsible,
7. Man as just another animal - the most vicious of all.
8. Gratification of all ones desires.

- Do you believe in the bible?
I believe that some stories within the bible can hold a common ground with me but for the most it is simply fairytales.

- Do you pray?
Satanism is not about worshipping an entity. You are the entity and a god to yourself. Your destiny is decided only by what you choose it to be. So no I do not pray to anyone.

It is nice to see someone ask intelligent questions about my religion for once. Thank you.

solidgear · 27-04-2006 4:56pm

so darkjagger, True satanists hold no regard for witches & wizards, is this true as they worship idols & elements? from what u say, true satanism is about urself as a god. What is ur take on the illuminati & Social engineering of societies?

UU · 27-04-2006 10:12pm

Actually I'd well believe what DarkJager has to say on Satanism.

I've heard that Satanism is not what its made out to be. It was actually the Roman Church, I believe, that initially gave the whole Satanic image to scare people. There's a very good article here on Satanism which I found rather interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism

Don't Hollywood hype up everything?

solidgear · 28-04-2006 2:56am

thanks uu.

joseph dawton · 28-04-2006 9:25am

Darkjager is not a 'Satanist' in the traditional sense (neither are followers of Levay). I'd consider both classes as a misnomer as neither involve worship or belief in Satan, Asmodai, Beelzebub, Lucifer, Mephistopheles etc or any other dark gods/powers or use of grimoires or black magic in the traditional sense. Maybe the old satanism has died out or perhaps is kept completely secret if it does still exist?

http://www.electricpublications.com

solidgear · 28-04-2006 12:18pm

one thinks kept completely secret & hidden. Painted over by social engineering of mass media,(Bilderberg group) etc. Look at the "Order of skull n bones"(yale uni)/ "the group"(oxford uni) these members are running countries/defence policies/ united nations, etc whilst of partaking in the "occult Cremation of Care ceremony". How real an impact is this type of religion effecting our lifes daily?

solidgear · 28-04-2006 12:23pm

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1489
http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/bohemian_grove.htm

Just some links for the less aware!

Nevyn · 28-04-2006 12:54pm

solidgear this forum is for disscusion spirituaitly amd the aspects of it,
disscusions about such influences are better suited to the conspirscy theroy forum.

KTRIC · 28-04-2006 12:59pm

DarkJager wrote:

Hello DaveMcG,

In response to your questions here are my answers..

- What are your main beliefs?

1. Indulgence, not abstinence.
2. Vital existence, not spiritual pipe dreams.
3. Undefiled wisdom, not hypocritical self-deceit.
4. Kindness to those deserving of it, not love wasted on ingrates.
5. Vengeance, not turning the other cheek.
6. Responsibility to the responsible,
7. Man as just another animal - the most vicious of all.
8. Gratification of all ones desires.

- Do you believe in the bible?
I believe that some stories within the bible can hold a common ground with me but for the most it is simply fairytales.

- Do you pray?
Satanism is not about worshipping an entity. You are the entity and a god to yourself. Your destiny is decided only by what you choose it to be. So no I do not pray to anyone.

It is nice to see someone ask intelligent questions about my religion for once. Thank you.

Interesting stuff. Do you meet with like minded people at any stage. Drop me a PM sometime.

Tar.Aldarion · 28-04-2006 1:03pm

I don't know any true ones nor watered down ones for a better want of a word for it, above.
However I am simply interested in it and have read about it.

faceman · 28-04-2006 1:08pm

DarkJager wrote:

- Do you believe in the bible?
I believe that some stories within the bible can hold a common ground with me but for the most it is simply fairytales.

- Do you pray?
Satanism is not about worshipping an entity. You are the entity and a god to yourself. Your destiny is decided only by what you choose it to be. So no I do not pray to anyone.

Hi DarkJager, I wud consider myself well read in varying religons/occults etc but i have to say ur comments did surprise me as I never expected it. (and i mean that comment with all respect) I do have a couple of curiousities tho:

* Do you believe in a creator and if so, with what regard to you hold him/her?
* Is ur satanic belief related to the bible interpretation of lucifer fallen angel and the 48 other demons or wud u consider urself more a pagan than satanist?
* what is ur opinion on Aleister Crowley?
* how does ur religon interpret women in society/relationships?

Interesting reading!

mr_angry · 28-04-2006 1:34pm

I find it interesting to note that this particular belief system seems to make no mention of Satan, or of anything beyond the current obstacle of death. As such, I think "Satanism" is a somewhat misleading term, and its place in Spirituality would seem to be questionable because of its disregard for any praeternatural elements. It seems more like a brand of philosophical self-ism to me...

solidgear · 28-04-2006 5:22pm

in fairness thaedydal, all religions impact on society,that is an aspect. i'm not going down conspiracy theories route. the worship of elements & gods anti christian affect daily life, even a person who believes in mother earth sees that. So don't go jumpin down my neck because it's been proved that a bunch of high ranking world deligates attend occult gatherings. thank you

Nevyn · 28-04-2006 6:14pm

I am not jumping down your neck, I don't jump down peoples neck I simply ban them.
I am warning you to keep the thread in contect of the forum that it is in.

There are many gods who have nothing to do with the christian faith what so ever but there are no antichristain gods.
The followers of other gods and other faiths may have differnt views and differing morals but that does not make them antichristian.

solidgear · 29-04-2006 1:46am

There are no anti christian gods? please explain, does everyone agree that all gods are of the christian nature & diety? please, thaedydal what then makes "satanism & Christianity" walk hand in hand in this great nation of Ireland?

Nevyn · 29-04-2006 11:09am

The type of Satanism you are refering to has satan aka lucifer worship in replacement of a god, lucifer was not a god by angelic scripture but an one of
the angels cast out of heaven for ploting against the christain god.

Saying that all gods are christain is just plain silly, chirstians say they have only one god, many other faiths have thier own gods who are completly different and have no connection or context with in a christain frame work which does not make them anti christian.

Zillah · 29-04-2006 1:49pm

DarkJager wrote:

- What are your main beliefs?

1. Indulgence, not abstinence.
2. Vital existence, not spiritual pipe dreams.
3. Undefiled wisdom, not hypocritical self-deceit.
4. Kindness to those deserving of it, not love wasted on ingrates.
5. Vengeance, not turning the other cheek.
6. Responsibility to the responsible,
7. Man as just another animal - the most vicious of all.
8. Gratification of all ones desires.

Uh oh...I think I might be a Satanist...

- Do you believe in the bible?
I believe that some stories within the bible can hold a common ground with me but for the most it is simply fairytales.

- Do you pray?
Satanism is not about worshipping an entity. You are the entity and a god to yourself. Your destiny is decided only by what you choose it to be. So no I do not pray to anyone.

What then makes it Satanism? Without the context of the Bible, God and Hell, what does the word Satan mean anymore?

EDIT: Further research on Wikipedia has been most informative. Particularily LaVeyan Satanism is quite interesting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism). However, a couple things confuse me. Occasionally the article refers to "magic" and "lesser magic", but never explains these terms. Which is strange considering the philosophy seems to reject things so abstract.

solidgear · 29-04-2006 7:11pm

"There are many gods who have nothing to do with the christian faith what so ever but there are no antichristain gods.
The followers of other gods and other faiths may have differnt views and differing morals but that does not make them antichristian".

Well if these dieties call for behavour & worship, (which is not Christian), then surely that would make them Anti christian? No! please enlighten me as too how demon worship, & other forms of Idolitary are not anti christian. Was there a verse that said "you shall have no other Gods above me". A commandment I believe. So satanism & the worship of lucifer, elements, etc does not contraveen this comandment? MMMMMM, Please someone explain that too me.

From what i'm reading satanism is about placing oneself in a position of being a diety, is that right?

Zillah · 29-04-2006 7:22pm

They are "anti christian" from the arrogant Christian perspective. Not from the point of view of the people who worship them, who couldn't give a flying toss what Christians think.

solidgear · 29-04-2006 10:15pm

So, Zillah, what is your understanding of satanism,what defines it as every day normal life? if we celebrate st patricks day, then go about celebraring other satanic celebrations where does that place us? I fear all this paying for readings N stuff is no less corrupt than those tv evangelists. what do u think?

Zillah · 30-04-2006 1:30am

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Undergod · 30-04-2006 4:54pm

Satanism as I understand it is very much what DarkJager described, although Satanism does seem somewhat a misnomer.

I have some interesting points; Lucifer in many traditions is seen as the morningstar, the giver of light. This means worship does not necessitate what would normally be considered evil, but that knowledge and enlightenmnet is revered, in an almost Gnostic way.

Also, for anyone who goes to Mass, notice how in one of this year's Easter Sunday readings, the risen Jesus was refered to as the morningstar? Weird, eh?

Rev Hellfire · 01-05-2006 8:22am

They are not anti-christian they are simply non-christian.
It is not a case of if you're not with us you're against us.

Zillah · 01-05-2006 3:22pm

Rev Hellfire wrote:

They are not anti-christian they are simply non-christian.
It is not a case of if you're not with us you're against us.

With some Christians...it is, unfortunately.

solidgear · 01-05-2006 3:49pm

so does satanism accept & promote co-existance between its form & that of say other religious beliefs which one may hold, be they christian based or not?

Zillah · 01-05-2006 4:18pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism

Talliesin · 12-05-2006 3:53pm

solidgear wrote:

Was there a verse that said "you shall have no other Gods above me".

That means followers of the Christian God shouldn't have any other Gods above him. Means nothing to the rest of us.

Zillah · 12-05-2006 6:25pm

Talliesin wrote:

Means nothing to the rest of us.

...from our point of view. That "hold no other Gods above me" does not merely apply to "those who feel like obeying me", the target is "humanity", so anyone not worshipping the Christian God is living in sin.

Hagar · 12-05-2006 6:45pm

Zillah wrote:

..."hold no other Gods above me"...

Is that an admission that there are other gods?
Wouldn't be much point mentioning them otherwise.
After all it doesn't say "false gods" does it?
So perhaps Satan could be one of the "other Gods"?

Zillah · 12-05-2006 7:05pm

Hagar wrote:

Is that an admission that there are other gods?

No.

Nevyn · 12-05-2006 8:09pm

http://pagan.flindersclubs.asn.au/humour/otherpeople.html

Undergod · 13-05-2006 3:56pm

Originally, the Hebrews were not monotheistic, but some other term which escapes my memory, that meant although they accepted the existence of other gods, they only worshipped YHWH.
Also, 'hold no other Gods above me' is from the Ten Commandments, which according to some parts of the New Testament, don't apply to Christians as they are old Jewish laws. This may be stated in one of Paul's letters, I'm not sure.

Dave! · 13-05-2006 7:10pm

hopefully DarkJager will come back here and address other questions posted, I'm curious!

pbsuxok1znja4r · 15-05-2006 10:59am

DarkJager wrote:

- What are your main beliefs?

1. Indulgence, not abstinence.
2. Vital existence, not spiritual pipe dreams.
3. Undefiled wisdom, not hypocritical self-deceit.
4. Kindness to those deserving of it, not love wasted on ingrates.
5. Vengeance, not turning the other cheek.
6. Responsibility to the responsible,
7. Man as just another animal - the most vicious of all.
8. Gratification of all ones desires.

What happens if you don't follow these rules or beliefs? Are you not then a satanist? Who originally came up with these beliefs for people to subscribe to?
Aren't these the same beliefs of LaVeyan satanism, which you claim to revile?
If satanism is essentially about indulging in whatever one feels like, why would one submit oneself to such rules as outlined above?

Why does it bother with the name "luciferan" if it does not revere or even believe in any character from the bible? Why would anyone bother with adhering to satanism instead of just doing whatever they feel like?
Seems more like a simple code of conduct than a religion, like. Especially the LaVeyan brand.

Nevyn · 15-05-2006 11:22am

Zillah wrote:

...from our point of view. That "hold no other Gods above me" does not merely apply to "those who feel like obeying me", the target is "humanity", so anyone not worshipping the Christian God is living in sin.

Target at the time was those that had followed Moses in to the desert not all of humanity.

Zillah · 17-05-2006 10:36am

The immediately visible target, yes. But the message was to humanity.

Talliesin · 17-05-2006 12:34pm

Why'd he go to the bother of getting one tribe away from the hassle they were having from another tribe (who were doing okay with their gods)?

stormkeeper · 04-06-2006 3:06pm

I remember talking to a Satanist ages ago about their beliefs and I found them beliefs to be quite intriguing, I have to say. What I've read up on regarding Satanism is pretty much what DarkkJager explained. I think some people find it to be quite a shock that Satanism isn't at all what people think it is! I'm still trying to find my way spiritually as it were, so I have no idea what my beliefs are at the moment, but I do appriciate a couple of those.

Sapien · 04-06-2006 3:28pm

joseph dawton wrote:

Darkjager is not a 'Satanist' in the traditional sense (neither are followers of Levay). I'd consider both classes as a misnomer as neither involve worship or belief in Satan, Asmodai, Beelzebub, Lucifer, Mephistopheles etc or any other dark gods/powers or use of grimoires or black magic in the traditional sense. Maybe the old satanism has died out...

I'm not sure that the variety of Satanism to which you refer ever really existed in a significant or lasting way, outside of the paranoid fantasies of zealots and conspiracy theorists.

joseph dawton · 06-06-2006 11:11am

It most certainly did. If not so why are there huge numbers of grimoires of black magic in museums around the world? Why then is there so much folklore and superstition, why does interest in this subject persist?

Just as the church wrongly vilified all witchcraft as worship of the devil for it's political purposes, many pagans now dismiss the existence of Satanism in the past as some kind of vindication of the church's crimes. I think the truth is that evil people have always existed, although they were a miniscule minority to say that Satanists never existed is laughable.

http://www.electricpublications.com

Nevyn · 06-06-2006 1:13pm

I don't doubt that the likes of some of the happenings in Dennis Wheatlys book did in fact happen and that there maybe people who enguage in such practices today.
I do believe in satanism and satanists but not as in the the way of the Opposer and those who worship him and are the opssite of all things 'good'.

layke · 06-06-2006 1:35pm

DarkJager wrote:

If any of you wish to know more, please feel free to ask me... Open minds with the right information are better than closed minds with the wrong...

I would LOVE to get my hands on the 'alternate bible'. I'm not religious in the slightest it's just to satisfy my own curiousity. TBH I can see Christians over the years hyping up all the horror stories of such a religion. Or even if you have any links handy much appreciated mate.

joseph dawton · 06-06-2006 2:00pm

Most of them are based on the lesser key of solomon. The basic principles are the same as any magic that involves invocation except the ends to which they are put are negative.

A good starting point for info : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimoire

or buy the Wordsworth Book of Spells which is dirt cheap and has extracts from several grimoires as well as an interesting commentary (from the late 1900s).

Interesting as part of history but I do not recommend trying any of it!

http://www.electricpublications.com

Sapien · 06-06-2006 5:30pm

joseph dawton wrote:

It most certainly did. If not so why are there huge numbers of grimoires of black magic in museums around the world? Why then is there so much folklore and superstition, why does interest in this subject persist?

Just as the church wrongly vilified all witchcraft as worship of the devil for it's political purposes, many pagans now dismiss the existence of Satanism in the past as some kind of vindication of the church's crimes. I think the truth is that evil people have always existed, although they were a miniscule minority to say that Satanists never existed is laughable.

http://www.electricpublications.com

A jumble of non sequiturs, joseph. I am familiar with most grimoires. Name one that is satanic, if you would.

Whether or not evil people have existed (this is the age of relativism, after all), I see no reason why any of these evil people would necessarily have been drawn towards satanism. I know of no evidence to suggest the existence of any lasting or remotely influential Satanic movements outside of the camp theatrics of La Vey and his squabbling inheritors, the grungy, incoherent antics of Metal groupies attempting to take their non-conformity to the next level, and the occasional, fugacious and uninteresting appearances in history of charlatanic characters like Eugéne Vintras and his coprophagous nuns.

I know of no coherent metaphysical, philosophical or spiritual construct attributed uniquely to, or existing universally among, satanic movements. If satanism exists, it exists as a broad, meaningless category encompassing a pointless jumble of shallow, sophomoric and obnoxious groups.

joseph dawton · 07-06-2006 10:25am

I stand by what I said in my last post. Magic can be applied for bad or good, there is no black mass I know of, but grimoire can be used for both good or bad, some are written with a greater focus on control of dark angels or demons. Many would consider the invocation of demons for either good or bad purposes to be black magic and evil by virtue of their employment regardless of intended outcome. It is the left hand path that is chosen by the magus that made some-one a Satanist, that is the important factor, the magical techniques were common to both good and bad.

satanism

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