Should we invest in a modern air force?

And what if a passenger aircraft was hijacked? Not that i consider this a hughe threats, but something that could happen none the less. I seriously doubt that and of the "air corps" planes could come close to catching the thing, let alone forcing it to change course. Or what if a pilot became incapacitacted, I dont think anybody(passenger with training) would have a hope of being helped guide a plane into land.

The Aer Corp only seem to have training planes, what the hell are they training for if those are their most advanced aircraft? Just ferrying VIP's about and then the only useful job they have with the 2 rescue helicopters and I'm not sure how useful it is getting trained in a cessna prop plane to then fly one of the heli's.

The Aer Corps only role is just to remain in existance, as otherwise there would be foriegn planes tasked with patroling Irish airspace, which they probably do anyway but just high enough that we don't see them. The Navy could do with more funding though as they could actually make themsevles usefull in patrolling the waters for stopping drug smuggling and for rescue operations. A plane or two might be usefull to help them with that role, but a small prop plane would not have the range to be of any use for that.

Fact is as mentioned already every country needs a military even if its just to defend its neutality. A small squadron of jets is all that is needed for our airspace. This could be used as already mentioned to protect against hijackings and other terrorist attacks.

cooperguy wrote:

Fact is as mentioned already every country needs a military even if its just to defend its neutality. A small squadron of jets is all that is needed for our airspace. This could be used as already mentioned to protect against hijackings and other terrorist attacks.

Every country does not need a military and there are quite a few that don't. Most of those that don't though are the likes of Andorra, Lichtenstien and a bunch of pacific islands and the securutiy of these mostly comes under the control of some other major nation. Iceland seems to be the largest country with no military, but they are a member of NATO and as part of that then have US airbases etc on their land which then makes their only role as being part of NATO to be a large stationary aircraft carrier.

If Ireland was to completely get rid of their military though then someone else would then need to provide security of the airspace and the seas. I'm presuming that having the RAF patrolling the sky's and the Royal Navy in the seas would not be to everyones liking though so unless the "USAF Shannon Refueling Base" gets considerably expanded someone else would have to be found to do the job.

Okay, folks, sorry about this being a long post but I think it's necessary because this is a subject I feel very strongly about. Hope you can bear with me on all this!

IrishAirCorps wrote:

So is Sweden but they have the first 4th generation fighter the Gripen, they have no enemies yet they had no problem building her, look at Switzerland the are Neutral and yet they have the F18 and among that other Supersonic Jets with no enemies and in order for them to go Supersonic they need to ask Germany or surrounding Countries for permission to use their Airspace for a Supersonic hop, Ireland should invest primarily in Helicopters first and Naval Vessels also, i bet that little of you know that the Irish have to patrol the biggest zone of International water anywhere in the EU, we already rely on the RAF to intercept any AC in trouble etc and to me i deem that as a joke, we are a soverign state and as such we should be able to protect ourselves first, we have the best soldiers in the world for peace keeping and i think we should all be proud of that. But if the Air Corps is to get serious then i suggest getting rid of MATS and concentrate on Heli's first for CSAR,MEDIVAC,TROOP OPS, ARW OPS and Aid to the civil powers and only then should we proceed to having aircraft even if it means only 6-10 figthers thats all we would need anyway for the size of our nation, if i was in charge id but some aircraft that would be a help to ground forces overseas like the A10 Thunderbolt she has it all and id have scrapped the AB139 in preferance for the Blackhawk.

Excellent post and I agree completely with it. People, here is a man who understands the Air Corps and knows what he's talking about so listen to him and listen well. And I especially agree with the bit you mentioned about getting Blackhawks instead of AB139s. Glorified flying limos is all they are, in my opinion, and will end up being used as such by the government, just like the Dauphins beforehand were. You can read my thoughts on the matter in this post here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=51216360&postcount=47

I think the people criticising the Air Corps and saying how we don't have a need for a modern Air Force don't fully understand the Air Corps itself and the roles it is supposed to carry out. The fact of the matter is, successive governments have, time and again, failed to properly equip the Air Corps to carry out it's roles properly and have used it as nothing more than it's own, personal airline. The Air Corps has a duty to support the operations of other branches of the defense forces, a duty to protect the country and it's airspace and to assist in aid-to-civil power operations. However, the Air Corps is woefully underequipped to do any of these as it stands right now (and has been for many years) and it's mainly used for MATS (Ministerial Air Transport Service) on a day to day basis, taking away any ability it has to perform the other tasks assigned to it.

We're not talking about equipping the Air Corps with F18's or Eurofighters or F22 Raptors so we can go bombing the Glen of Imaal for the hell of it or for overseas deployment to Liberia or wherever. We're talking about equipping it with aircraft so that it can carry out the roles I talked about above properly and for the government to stop using it as it's own, personal flying taxi service.

As it stands right now, here is the list of aircraft currently deployed by the Air Corps. Take a look at it and then decide if you think they are equipped properly to carry out the task they're supposed to.


Fixed Wing

1 x Gulfsteam IV private jet
1 x Learjet 45 private jet
1 x Beach King Air 200 turboprop

Al three above are mainly used for MATS. The King Air is also used for multi-engine training purposes.

2 x CASA CN235 - used primarily for maritime and coastal patrol...... when not being used to "airlift" Mary Harney to openings of off-licences! :mad:

8 x Pilatus PC-9M - used primarily for flight training but can also be used for light attack when armed with 0.5" machine gun and 2.75" rocket pods.

5 or 6 (I think! ) x Cessna FR172 - used for parachute training, target towing, observation missions.

Helicopters

7 (I think) x SA316 Allouette III - used for just about everything! But they have been in service for over 40 years now and are in desperate need of replacing.

2 x Eurocopter EC135 - the Air Corps' most recent aquisition. Used for helicopter flight training and in the Light Utility Helicopter role (MATS, light transport, medivac, observation, etc.)

And that's it, folks. A total of 28 aircraft or so, not counting the Garda helicopters and fixed wing Defender 4000 it also operates on behalf of the Gardai. And, of those 28 aircraft, most are used for training of some sort and ministerial and VIP air transport. Even when the four AB139s arrive, that'll still only be 32 aircraft but, seeing as we all know the politicians are mainly going to keep the AB139s for their own personal use anyway (:rolleyes:), you could almost eliminate them from the mix anyway. Eventually the Allouettes are going to have to be retired and the AB139s are supposed to be their replacements. That means that, considering up until recently we had about 12 helicopters (7 Allouettes, 4 Dauphins, 1 Gazelle), when the Allouettes are eventually mothballed we'll be left with just 6 helicopters, a halfing of what we had up till now. And, as I said, you could almost count out the AB139s from the mix. The goverment are going backwards with regards to the Air Corps, not forwards.

Here's what I think would constitute a proper Air Corps lineup:

1 x Goverment Jet - a large one if necessary that can also be used for troop transport and resupply to our troops serving in other countries if necessary. Say an Airbus or something like that. If the government wants something fancier like a Gulfstream or a Learjet, though, then let them have it but at least get the Air Corps a transport of some sort like a secondhand C-130 Hercules or something.

1 x Multi-engine trainer - keep the King Air or buy something similar but newer.

8 x Pilatus PC-9Ms - keep these, they are possibly the best turboprop trainers in the world and one the best aquisitions the Air Corps has ever received.

2 x CASA CN235 - these are possibly one of the most effective aircraft the Air Corps has ever operated. They have been an invalueable assest to our country, in my opinion, and have proven themselves to be fantastic in the maritime patrol role. The upgrades they are due to receive will hopefully make them an even better platform for the future.

4 - 6 x Replacements for the Cessnas - these are very old now as well and could do with being replaced with something similar but perhaps larger. Maybe Cessna Caravans or something along those lines.

6 - 8 x Agusta AB139s - if we have to have these "flying sportscars / limos" instead of proper military utility choppers like Blackhawks, at least let's get more than 4 of them. And don't have them tied up all the time ferrying ministers about, have them doing the proper military and aid-to-civil-power tasks they were assigned to do.

4 x Eurocopter EC135s - increase the current complement of 2 to 4. Would give greater flexibility and, if Bertie and his chums want to something to fly around in, let them fly around in one (no more!) of these, freeing up the larger AC139s for other, more important, tasks.

Now, I think that would be a pretty effective complement of aircraft and would certainly not be something to be embarrased about, don't you? As for the question of fast jets, well, I'm still not sure about that, to be honest. I would like to see the Air Corps having some, of course, and I think in the longer term there would be a use for them but I think we need to re-equip and build up the Air Corps strength to something like I suggested above before we worry about fast jets, to be honest. Let's learn to walk first before we run, eh? If we could get the Air Corps equipped somewhere along the lines that I suggested above within maybe 5 to 8 years or so (I think it's easily possible if the goverment wanted to be serious about it) and operating properly then maybe within the next 10 or 15 years we could start looking at fast jets, perhaps something along the lines of maybe 6 or so Saab JAS-39 Grippens or something similar. Forget about your F22s or Eurofighters, I think something like the Grippen would be much more cost-effective and suitable for our needs.

Muggy Dev wrote:

No!

Not a another single penny spent on our Defense Forces while our patients,relatives,doctors,nurses and staff suffer intolarable conditions in our hospitals.

I would agree with the above, what about the schools that are grossly underfunded? And just think what a small airforce might cost...

Some Slightly older planes:
f-16 fighting falcon (1998) €15 million
f-15 eagle (1998) €25 million
f-18 hornet (2003) €29 million
Saab Grippen (2003) €32 million
Eurofighter 2000 €40-50 million


more Current generation:
Dassault Rafael €53 million for the basic, €118 million for it to be kitted out with electronics and weapons
f-22 raptor €110 million
su-47 berkut €50 million plus
Eurofighter typhoon €40 to 50 million
f-18 Superhornet (2003) €46-55 million


What about some attack helicopters??
an apache AH-64D would be a mere €30 million
or a Eurocopter would be about the same
Mind you a few Blackhawks for troop carrying are only about €5 million

Though I do think that we need a C-130 Hercules, cos every time I see Mary Harney, the less I think the government jets will take the load!!

Maybe the next time the US are transporting weapons through Ireland, we should have our Customs confiscate em. Or just go down to the Glen of Imal and dig up them spitfires we buried .. (but maybe thats DF legend??)

At the end of the day.. these machines are made for killing people..Its what they do best.