The Shooting Forum Makes Me Mad

cormie · 2006-04-14 20:47:05

Quite a few times I've seen posts on the front page that have caught my attention. Just now a thread asking how many animals to kill is too much. Of course my response would be 1. I'm not a vegetarian but I don't believe in killing for sport.:(

#62 15-04-2006 01:32AM

Basq

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WhiteWashMan wrote:

the hoff forum annoys me.

Seconded!

All forums annoy me! :mad: :mad:

Grrrrr... After Hours.. Oh, the flash of white rage before my eyes right now!

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#63 15-04-2006 01:34AM

Tar.Aldarion

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DaveMcG wrote:

Was that a Muslim fundamentalist sheep?

Running at bob? :P

Seriously class part of the book there NTM.

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#64 15-04-2006 01:38AM

Giblet

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Tar.Aldarion wrote:

@ Giblet
To not give animals 'soul' and character is so typically human, and btw humans are just animals too.
Humans do not need to eat meat to survive, other animals that do, have to. You are an omnivore, I am not. No it does not 'have to be done'.

No, you are, you choose not to eat meat, it doesn't mean you have a different make up to the rest of us.

You don't even need to supplement it with any vitamins, tablets etc. Just naturally.

Not quite so naturally, you mean, natural as in we don't require pills. Many of the nutrients we need are not supplied naturally. We have learned what the body needs and we have the ability to adhere to it. It's about as natural as saying "God gave us hands to use knives and forks instead of prominent canines..."

Also they would not be living in our hair. We just breed tens of billions of animals every year needlessly. It's even more cost effective not to. It is simply for pleasure at the expense of life.

Did you read this somewhere or research it? If it was needlessly, we would find no need, yet we do...

Let me sum up my views...

Leo Tolstoy:

"It may be suggested by some books that it is not a sin to kill an animal, but it is written in our own hearts - more clearly than in any book - that we should take pity on animals in the same way as we do on humans."

"A man can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if he eats meat he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his appetite. And to act so is immoral."

"What I think about vivisection is that if people admit that they have the right to take or endanger the life of living beings for the benefit of many, there will be no limit for their cruelty."

Mark Twain, author:

"Of all the creatures ever made he (man) is the most detestable. He is the only creature that inflicts pain for sport, knowing it to be pain."

Robert Louis Stevenson:

"We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs as our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear."

Mahatma Gandhi, statesman and philosopher:

"To my mind the life of a lamb is no less precious than that of a human being. I should be unwilling to take the life of a lamb for the sake of the human body. I hold that, the more helpless a creature, the more entitled it is to the protection by man from the cruelty of man."

George Bernard Shaw, playwright, Nobel Prize 1925:

"If a group of beings from another planet were to land on Earth -- beings who considered themselves as superior to you as you feel yourself to be to other animals -- would you concede them the rights over you that you assume over other animals?"

"The worst sin towards our fellow creatures is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them. That’s the essence of inhumanity."

"When a man wants to murder an animal, it's called sport, when the animal wants to murder him, it is called ferocity."

"Animals are my friends and I don't eat my friends."

Etc, etc.

I eat meat, it taste good - giblet....

Killing an animal is either wrong or it isn't

Why does it have to be clear cut, because you say so? Killing an animal so you can have a laugh about it with mates is wrong, to eat, not wrong. See!! That's my opinion.

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#65 15-04-2006 01:39AM

RobertFoster

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DaveMcG wrote:

Was that a Muslim fundamentalist sheep?

Speaking of which - can you actually kill a worm, or can they survive from being cut in half?

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#66 15-04-2006 02:04AM

Manic Moran

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Bob wrote:

NTM... San Jose... Cal Tanker / IMO?

Oddly enough, and by a massive coincidence, yes.

OK.. So so far we've determined that the title of this thread shouldn't be 'The Shooting Forum Makes Me Sick', but should be 'Any forum that advocates the killing of animals for food makes me sick,' to include Shooting, Angling, Food/Drink, and any other as yet un-named fora?

NTM

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#67 15-04-2006 02:06AM

Tar.Aldarion

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Zillah wrote:

Huh... Curious. I shall try this..stuff. Does it actually taste like meat or is it just supposed to? Does it provide the healthy benefits of real meat, such as protein and iron?

http://www.quorn.com/
You need to cook it well and it tastes fabulous, badly and it is crap. Also there are so many types, you will hate some and love some.
It has plenty of protein, as for Iron, we get enough of that from fruit, eggs, grains, nuts etc. added bonus is you get Vit C which is not in meat and it's not bad for your heart.

Giblet wrote:

No, you are, you choose not to eat meat, it doesn't mean you have a different make up to the rest of us.

My earlier reply in this thread to this.

Omnivore as in the definition of eating meat and veg.
Have you done much biology first of all?
There is quite some debate as to whether humans were omnivourous or herbivores. Human tribes of vegans still exist today which date back over 5,000 years.
If you look at tables of generic traits between carnivores, herbivores and omnivores you will notice humas are far closer to herbivores than any other group, biologically and chemically.
The fact is, if we were omnivorous or vegetarian, it does not matter.
Why should we do what is 'natural'?
Our intelligence is seemingly why we don't act like animals, we don't have to.
If you want to talk about this in furhter detail I will happily answer in vegan/vegetarian.

Not quite so naturally, you mean, natural as in we don't require pills. Many of the nutrients we need are not supplied naturally. We have learned what the body needs and we have the ability to adhere to it. It's about as natural as saying "God gave us hands to use knives and forks instead of prominent canines..."

How is it not natural to eat foods that are natural?
As for things being natural, I said above, it doesn't matter at all what is natural because our intelligence is what should define us. See quote above.

Did you read this somewhere or research it? If it was needlessly, we would find no need, yet we do...

Both. Actually you don't have the need, you have the want. Completely different and as it wastes so more much resourses every year(fossil fuels, grain, water( over half the water used in America is for cows alone) etc) on maintaining an ultimately unsustainable diet of meat, it is beneficial to the world to give up the huge meat factories. Currently we need over 13 Earths to sustain us (research) as we stand and we are needing more as every day goes by. The amount of food you have to use to rear billions of animals alone is staggering. Humans are starving and without a meat based society there would be easily enough food to feed them, if only to not have the storage costs of it on our hands.
However, knowing governments, that probably doesn't matter.
Then again, humans are probably ****ed anyway, these factioies or no.

I eat meat, it taste good - giblet....

Why does it have to be clear cut, because you say so? Killing an animal so you can have a laugh about it with mates is wrong, to eat, not wrong. See!! That's my opinion.

Well then, explain this reasoning to me?
Killing for sport is killing for pleasure, killing for food is killing for pleasure.
You like one so it is right and don't like the other so it is wrong, eh?

As Mr Tolstoy said, "A man can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if he eats meat he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his appetite. And to act so is immoral."

Appetite, pleasure. If you have any moral qualms about animals being killed( and you clearly do) then you should now better than what you said and that's my opinion.

RobertFoster wrote:

Speaking of which - can you actually kill a worm, or can they survive from being cut in half?

According to biology lectures, the worm dies.

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#68 15-04-2006 04:10AM

Zillah

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Well then, explain this reasoning to me?
Killing for sport is killing for pleasure, killing for food is killing for pleasure.
You like one so it is right and don't like the other so it is wrong, eh?

There is a small difference. Someone who goes out and kills an animal for fun has to go and get a weapon, learn to use it, plan the event and go do it. He has to go out of his way to kill it.

However, with becoming vegetarian, one must be more careful to balance one's diet, research alternate foods, perhaps take supplements etc. So you have to go out of your way to be vegetarian.

Its not a major point, but it is why I would be far far more forgiving of the average meat eating person than of a shooter.

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#69 15-04-2006 04:29AM

Tar.Aldarion

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Zillah wrote:

There is a small difference. Someone who goes out and kills an animal for fun has to go and get a weapon, learn to use it, plan the event and go do it. He has to go out of his way to kill it.

However, with becoming vegetarian, one must be more careful to balance one's diet, research alternate foods, perhaps take supplements etc. So you have to go out of your way to be vegetarian.

Its not a major point, but it is why I would be far far more forgiving of the average meat eating person than of a shooter.

Because something is easier, it doesn't make it any more right to me, it's just upbringing that makes a lot people accept killing animals point blank, much like poeple being indoctrinated into religion.
Meat is easy to come by, it's in all the shops, surely it is ok...It's what I was brought up tobelieve and it was tough to break away from that.
I preached about the rights of animals long before I was a vegetarian until one day I was like 'wtf am i eating meat for'.
I admit it was some effort for me to become a vegetarian way back when, especially as meat is the only food I enjoy, practically.
If you asked anybody who knows me, who they know that is least likely to be a vegetarian they would say me because of that. :P
I can see what you mean though, I just am not forgiving of either whatsoever.
I do happen to have respect for poeple's opinions and rights so I am not some form of hardline rights terrorist, barely. (:

The only thing I can say about somebody who goes out and kills their food, I have more respect(in theory, not actually) for that than somebody who has other people kill it, cure it, cook it and serve it to them. They don't have to go through the killing process. Maybe if they did have to take part in actually killing hteir food, they would not.
I know plenty of people who could ot kill or hurt an animal for the life of them and can't stand to think of what their food actually is, so they push it out of their mind. Funnily enough, I have o problem with killing if I wanted to...anyway... At least a hunter had to go through with killing it etc.
Bah enough exhausted rambing from me tonight.
I hope this even makes sense in the morning.

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#70 15-04-2006 06:26AM

Zillah

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Hey I just remembered, weren't you the one advocating a canabolistic utopia!?

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#71 15-04-2006 06:31AM

bounty

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as long as the animal is not endangered, then shooting it is natural

we have evolved to be the top predator on earth, revel in your time!

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#72 15-04-2006 06:39AM

Zillah

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bounty wrote:

as long as the animal is not endangered, then shooting it is natural

we have evolved to be the top predator on earth, revel in your time!

Its also natural for me to smash your head in if you piss me off enough, but I won't be doing that now will I? Intellect over primitive instinct. Saying something is "natural" means absolutely nothing. Cancer is natural, does that mean you shouldn't have treatment? How about antibiotics? They're not natural. Unpasteurised milk is natural but I doubt you drink it.

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#73 15-04-2006 06:56AM

bounty

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if you tried to "smash my head in", naturally i'd defend myself, by maybe shooting you. so no, you won't be doing that

your examples are kind of dumb :rolleyes:

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#74 15-04-2006 07:14AM

Zillah

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bounty wrote:

if you tried to "smash my head in", naturally i'd defend myself, by maybe shooting you. so no, you won't be doing that

your examples are kind of dumb :rolleyes:

No, the examples are perfect. The logic, which I borrowed from you, is dumb. Thats my very point.

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#75 15-04-2006 07:35AM

bounty

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no, i didn't loan you anything

dont blame me for your dumb examples!

everyone knows its natural to threat sicknesses

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#76 15-04-2006 08:39AM

ArphaRima

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well yes if you are a vegitarian then i think you have the moral high ground

I completely disagree. Vegetarians hold no moral superiority over an omnivore. Thats the whole point. Eating meat is NOT "wrong". It never has been. If you are religious you can't even claim that. What did jesus eat at his last supper? Bloody lamb and other good tasty meats.

As for shooting. It's a sport. It is not "wrong" either. Again you do not occupy the moral high ground over a shooter. I think it shows conviction and responsibility to kill an animal to eat. A wild animal killed in the wild using skill and cunning would have had a much better/interesting life than one kept in captivity I would assume.

Intellect over primitive instinct.

Humans use their intellect to topple greater animals. Thats why we are at the top of the food chain despite having many animals physically stronger and larger than us.

Have you ever seen what nature gets up to? It is savage. Its raw. Insects and animals butcher each other for survival constantly. Just because in the last 100 years we invented vitamins, (and for the most part the concepts of vegetarianism, veganism, etc.) does not raise us above nature.

Humans are starving and without a meat based society there would be easily enough food to feed them, if only to not have the storage costs of it on our hands.

This is one of the most fantastical claims that I have ever heard. Source? Are you an economist, nutritionist, farmer or a logistics specialist?

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#77 15-04-2006 11:33AM

dathi1

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If you're hunting / Shooting for sport and the result is eaten then its ok. Hunting is fine if its done ethically. Going out and shooting carrion or whatever flies overhead for the hell of it should carry a jail sentence. New measures should be and I think will be introduced in the future to safeguard ethical hunting. The whole don't kill animals / veggie thing I think is very unnatural.

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#78 15-04-2006 11:43AM

CiaranC

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If God didnt want us to eat Animals, then why'd he make them out of tasty meat then, huh?

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#79 15-04-2006 12:00PM

cormie

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CiaranC wrote:

If God didnt want us to eat Animals, then why'd he make them out of tasty meat then, huh?

Have you eaten human meat before?

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#80 15-04-2006 12:32PM

dathi1

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Have you eaten human meat before?

If push came to shove in a famine situation ect..its not unheard of. But with lots of other meat running around lets stick to other species.

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#81 15-04-2006 01:32PM

Clare gunner

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Tastes like....chicken!:D

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#82 15-04-2006 01:33PM

Tar.Aldarion

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Zillah wrote:

Hey I just remembered, weren't you the one advocating a canabolistic utopia!?

I for one, look forward to this cannibalistic Utopia.

Zillah wrote:

No, the examples are perfect. The logic, which I borrowed from you, is dumb. Thats my very point.

Very true..I mean wow...

I completely disagree. Vegetarians hold no moral superiority over an omnivore. Thats the whole point. Eating meat is NOT "wrong".

And his whole point, even though he is not a vegetarian, is that we do...

It never has been. If you are religious you can't even claim that. What did jesus eat at his last supper? Bloody lamb and other good tasty meats.

Depends on your religion there and a lot of people think jesus was vegetarian, as with most apostoles, anyway I couldn't care in the slightest. People that are brought up in christianity have it instilled in them that eating meat is ok becacouse humans are the chosen race, with other animals just here for us, codswallop.

As for shooting. It's a sport. It is not "wrong" either. Again you do not occupy the moral high ground over a shooter. I think it shows conviction and responsibility to kill an animal to eat. A wild animal killed in the wild using skill and cunning would have had a much better/interesting life than one kept in captivity I would assume.

The very fact that your recognise that animals live good, interesting lives themselves should show you it is wrong, empathy, no?
Would you feel the same hunting a person?
What's the difference?

"If a group of beings from another planet were to land on Earth -- beings who considered themselves as superior to you as you feel yourself to be to other animals -- would you concede them the rights over you that you assume over other animals?"

Humans use their intellect to topple greater animals. Thats why we are at the top of the food chain despite having many animals physically stronger and larger than us.

And a lot of us think we should use that intelect to not kill animals, because unlike other animals, we don't need to kill to survive.

Have you ever seen what nature gets up to? It is savage. Its raw. Insects and animals butcher each other for survival constantly.

"Of all the creatures ever made he (man) is the most detestable. He is the only creature that inflicts pain for sport, knowing it to be pain."

Just because in the last 100 years we invented vitamins,

We invented vitamins?
Ha!
Anyway, what's that got to do with anything, vegetarians don't need to take any supplements. No uneducated assumptions please.

(and for the most part the concepts of vegetarianism, veganism, etc.)

Now that is also a load of trite tripe. We were called pythagoreans long before idn't really live vegetarians, all those greek philosophers didn't really live in the last one hundred years and if you didn't make these wild assumptions(and even actually read this thread where it is already mentioned twice) you will notice that there are human groupsa liv today that have been vegans for at least 5,000 years.

does not raise us above nature.

So you agree we are no better than any other animal?

This is one of the most fantastical claims that I have ever heard. Source? Are you an economist, nutritionist, farmer or a logistics specialist?

Well, you can call me a bit of each.
I don't see why it is fantastical, the nmbers speak for themselves.
Well, I suppose, if you hadn't looked at them, which you haven't.

Heres a fferent post of mine relating to that, with a few basic figures.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=3194225&postcount=3

Also, here's a good book mentioned in teh post.
http://www.vivavegie.org/vv101/101reas98.html
http://www.vivavegie.org/vvi/pdf/101.2001.pdf
There are a good few editions.

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#83 15-04-2006 01:35PM

Tar.Aldarion

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cormie wrote:

Have you eaten human meat before?

Buy some hufu, the artificial human meat, mmm.

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#84 15-04-2006 02:03PM

cranoo

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For all you anti hunters, its not against the law to hunt so I will be going out to bag a few bunnies later, for the pot of course, much nicer than the burgers you eat in McDonalds and much healthier, but those burgers just seem to fall from the sky, so it wont bother your conscience, I usually shoot two for the pot but im feeling so good today I might bag me three

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#85 15-04-2006 02:05PM

lodgepole

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Tar.Aldarion wrote:

And his whole point, even though he is not a vegetarian, is that we do...

Wasn't his point that some vegetarians think they do?

a lot of people think jesus was vegetarian, as with most apostoles, anyway I couldn't care in the slightest. People that are brought up in christianity have it instilled in them that eating meat is ok becacouse humans are the chosen race, with other animals just here for us, codswallop.

I'd never heard that about Jesus, I wonder where they got that from. Equally, the idea that Christian families teach that is, as you say, codswollop. I was raised Christian (though i'm no longer so) and we ate meat because it tastes good and is good for you.

The very fact that your recognise that animals live good, interesting lives themselves should show you it is wrong, empathy, no?
Would you feel the same hunting a person?
What's the difference?

The difference is that we are also human. Animals may live good interesting lives but they still taste good and we are still above them in the food chain. That's nature.

So you agree we are no better than any other animal?

That's not what he said. We are, essentially, the best creatures on the planet. We've evolved more, created more, thought more. We've reached a point where despite our obvious physical weaknesses we can still conquer any creature on Earth. We are at the top of the food chain. Yet we actively strive (somewhat) to retain a balance and to prevent species becoming extinct.

Nobody likes a vegetarian.

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#86 15-04-2006 02:29PM

Tar.Aldarion

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cranoo wrote:

but those burgers just seem to fall from the sky, so it wont bother your conscience,

Nicely put.

Lodgepole wrote:

Wasn't his point that some vegetarians think they do?

No, he just said tht we had the moral highground.
Where do you get that from?

I'd never heard that about Jesus, I wonder where they got that from.

Well, there are quotes in the bible that say jesus was for eating of meat and equally ones that say he was against. It's a vague book...That is their interpretation.
There are a lot of books, essays and websites which have titles similar to, 'was jesus a vegetarian?'

Equally, the idea that Christian families teach that is, as you say, codswollop. I was raised Christian (though i'm no longer so) and we ate meat because it tastes good and is good for you.

That is your family, they obviously didn't instill the christian dogma into you.
Much as mine did not to me. However, in Christianity it is generally accepted that eating meat is ok, in eden and especially after the great fall.
They may be the reasons you ate meat, but they are simply more reasons aswell as being christian.
Since people are brought up to believe, in christianity anyways, that jesus and th apostles etc ate meat, they wouldn't have moral qualms with it.

The difference is that we are also human. Animals may live good interesting lives but they still taste good and we are still above them in the food chain. That's nature.

and as I said, it is my opinion that as we are the only animals that kill, knowing t to be causing pain to another living being, we should not.
Our intelligence which puts us atop this food chain should also show us that, if we do not need to kill, we should not.
Yes it tastes good, as I have found the substitute meats tases great too so there is another reason to just not eat meat for me...

That's not what he said.

I'm asking him a question.

We are, essentially, the best creatures on the planet

Some believe us to be the worst.

We've evolved more

No we haven't but we have evolved differently.

created more,

Destroyed much more.

thought more.

Speculation.

We've reached a point where despite our obvious physical weaknesses we can still conquer any creature on Earth.

Yet, we are doomed as it stands to die as a species where most animals are not. Humans are like a virus that spread through each continant and we are unsubstanable. How long do you think we can maintain oour current rate of technology looking at resoursand sheer numbers?
I think mother nature may eventually wipe us out if we don't do it ourselves first. Ye swe can conquer creatures, but we have evolved so we don't have to and to know that we don't have to.

Yes, We are at the top of the food chain. Yet we actively strive (somewhat) to retain a balance and to prevent species becoming extinct.

That is a very light somewhat, as in barely non existant. We have wiped out thousand of species and well, read this for things to come.
http://www.gsreport.com/articles/art000179.html

Nobody likes a vegetarian.

http://store.naturalnirvana.com/iththiamvet.html

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#87 15-04-2006 06:29PM

MDP

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Tar - maybe a little OT here but just wondering as I was reading through all these posts. Do you keep pets? If you did have a pet dog/cat would you allow it to eat meat?

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#88 15-04-2006 06:43PM

Tar.Aldarion

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MDP wrote:

Tar - maybe a little OT here but just wondering as I was reading through all these posts. Do you keep pets? If you did have a pet dog/cat would you allow it to eat meat?

I don't have any pets no...
At home the only pets we ever took on were strays/abused and I would do it again.
As to whether you should feed a cat or dog meat, here is a thread going on about that.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054883275

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#89 15-04-2006 06:43PM

Ri_Nollaig

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"we trained a lion to eat tofu" - hippy from futurama

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#90 15-04-2006 07:11PM

astro

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i'd let them do their own thing, what else can they do fun out in the bog

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#91 15-04-2006 07:22PM

Ri_Nollaig

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astro wrote:

i'd let them do their own thing, what else can they do fun out in the bog

learn english ?

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