The Shooting Forum Makes Me Mad

Tar.Aldarion · 14-04-2006 10:39PM

Gordon wrote:

I'd say "Get a job hippies!"

Gandhi had a job! Kind of... :P

No hippie was ever a fruitarian, I would imagine and breatharians just die!

Manic Moran · 14-04-2006 10:48PM

Zillah wrote:

And I don't think anyone is claiming that the shooters actually need to shoot and eat that rabbit to feed his family.

Nope, but is there any particular difference between eating a pheasant or rabbit that you shot yourself, and buying one pre-packaged down the supermarket? Ditto Venison. Other than the fact that you had to bring yourself to do the killing yourself. Even better, if you do your own butchering. Most hunters have a sort of 'respect for life' which goes beyond that of those of us who never see life taken. Take the 'last meal' that European hunters give their kills, for example.

How about fishing, do the anti-hunting people have a problem with fishing as well? It's categorised as the world's most popular passtime. Only difference is that you don't use a firearm to hunt fish. (Usually. There actually is a freshwater fish-shooting season in some places. My grand-dad hunted sharks with rifles too)

NTM

Dave! · 14-04-2006 10:51PM

Zillah wrote:

Is that some "circle of life" crap?

Pretty much, yeh. Are you a vegetarian? If you are then we're obviously not gonna see eye to eye, but if you're not, and you only agree with eating animals after they've been raised on a farm, fattened up, marched into a slaughter house with all of their mates, chopped up, then wrapped in plastic and sold to you, then you're a hypocrit.

[Jackass] · 14-04-2006 10:56PM

I saw a courier in a pretty vicious car accident near work about a month back. Now i'm sorry I didn't take pictures on my phone so pighead could have a big ****.

Two thumbs up to you sir, your hatred of couriers is an insperation to us all.

doctor evil · 15-04-2006 12:08AM

Couldn`t care less unless it is killed properly, also not endngered.

Nature is red in tooth and claw, I don`t think much of bleedin`hearts that pine for little bunnies.

Giblet · 15-04-2006 12:20AM

Giving animals "soul" and "character" is so typically human. Every other animal eats for survival, we do the same. Big deal. You can be ethical and not do it inhumanly, but it has to be done. We're omnivores, live with it.

Dave! · 15-04-2006 12:23AM

Well vegetarians would probably argue that it doesn't have to be done, that we can live perfectly healthily eating vegetables and supplementing it with vitamins, protein tablets, etc.

But sure if we didn't kill the animals they'd be livin in our hair, ffs

Tar.Aldarion · 15-04-2006 12:24AM

@ Giblet
To not give animals 'soul' and character is so typically human, and btw humans are just animals too.
Humans do not need to eat meat to survive, other animals that do, have to. You are an omnivore, I am not. No it does not 'have to be done'.

Well vegetarians would probably argue that it doesn't have to be done, that we can live perfectly healthily eating vegetables and supplementing it with vitamins, protein tablets, etc. But sure if we didn't kill the animals they'd be livin in our hair, ffs

You don't even need to supplement it with any vitamins, tablets etc. Just naturally.
Also they would not be living in our hair. We just breed tens of billions of animals every year needlessly. It's even more cost effective not to. It is simply for pleasure at the expense of life.

Let me sum up my views...

Leo Tolstoy:

"It may be suggested by some books that it is not a sin to kill an animal, but it is written in our own hearts - more clearly than in any book - that we should take pity on animals in the same way as we do on humans."

"A man can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if he eats meat he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his appetite. And to act so is immoral."

"What I think about vivisection is that if people admit that they have the right to take or endanger the life of living beings for the benefit of many, there will be no limit for their cruelty."

Mark Twain, author:

"Of all the creatures ever made he (man) is the most detestable. He is the only creature that inflicts pain for sport, knowing it to be pain."

Robert Louis Stevenson:

"We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs as our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear."

Mahatma Gandhi, statesman and philosopher:

"To my mind the life of a lamb is no less precious than that of a human being. I should be unwilling to take the life of a lamb for the sake of the human body. I hold that, the more helpless a creature, the more entitled it is to the protection by man from the cruelty of man."

George Bernard Shaw, playwright, Nobel Prize 1925:

"If a group of beings from another planet were to land on Earth -- beings who considered themselves as superior to you as you feel yourself to be to other animals -- would you concede them the rights over you that you assume over other animals?"

"The worst sin towards our fellow creatures is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them. That’s the essence of inhumanity."

"When a man wants to murder an animal, it's called sport, when the animal wants to murder him, it is called ferocity."

"Animals are my friends and I don't eat my friends."

Etc, etc.

tuxy · 15-04-2006 12:35AM

well yes if you are a vegitarian then i think you have the moral high ground. however i don't see how people who eat meat can be aginst hunting.
at least the animals in a hunt have a chance of getting away, and live in the wild. sounds better then being kept in a small cage with no chance of escape.

WhiteWashMan · 15-04-2006 12:35AM

the hoff forum annoys me.

junkyard · 15-04-2006 12:38AM

I don't believe in shooting animals for sport, I'm not a fan of killing any animal tbh but I suppose if its done as humanely as possible with as little stress to the animal its acceptable for food. I find it hard to consider killing animals and then eating them, I couldn't get the picture of the animal out of my head when it was alive.

Manic Moran · 15-04-2006 12:39AM

I note we have an angling forum, and a shooting forum.

Angling: Luring schwimmies to a hook, and either pulling them in and letting them suffocate (Or whacking them a bit), or just taking a photo, unhooking them and leaving them swim around a bit with a hole in their mouth. There doesn't seem to be an angling option which doesn't involve causing pain to animals that I know of.

Shooting: Hunting by shooting animals dead, marksmanship by way of shooting poor, defenseless paper targets, and utility. (Either animal pest control, or defense, depending on situation).

Seems to me that on the purely 'God's Creatures' aspect, the angling forum should be receiving the vitriol. At least shooting has one other harmless, and one functional purpose if you discount the obtaining of food argument which applies to both fishing and hunting.

NTM

astrofool · 15-04-2006 12:45AM

Tar, you're as much an omnivore as everyone else in the world, not eating meat does not change your genetic make up.

As a matter of interest, does anything you use come from animal derived products? Or is it just meat thats been given up? Would you see animals being locked up for their wool, and eggs as treating them as slaves?

On the one hand, there seems to be a push back to organic products from synthetic products from food to clothing, and if there is, thats gonna mean alot more animals suffering.

homah_7ft · 15-04-2006 12:45AM

I am not usually a reactionary but I say, shooting's not good enough for them.

Tar.Aldarion · 15-04-2006 12:54AM

tuxy wrote:

well yes if you are a vegitarian then i think you have the moral high ground. however i don't see how people who eat meat can be aginst hunting.
at least the animals in a hunt have a chance of getting away, and live in the wild. sounds better then being kept in a small cage with no chance of escape.

I agree with you. I think it is quite hypocritical for somebody to eat meat and think hunting animals is wrong.
Killing an animal is either wrong or it isn't. Which is it for those of you that eat meat and think hunting is wrong?
Obviously you think it is wrong if you go and complain about hunting.
Animals feel pain too(as if I had to say 'too' like we were not an animal) and we are much more alike than you would like to think.
If you can go out, look an animal in the eye, hear it call out in pain as you kill it, and not know in your heart that it is wrong then yes, eat meat away,in my opinion you would not know the meaning of compassion and would not even be inhumane.
I doubt many people are like that.
Could you kill a dog as if it were nothing?
No, if you see somebody hurting a dog, 'omg the cruelty'.

Bah, I've had enough ranting at this screen. I need to calm down...
The quotes I posted sum up how I feel.

Yes, to the person that pointed it out, fishing is just as wrong.

Zillah · 15-04-2006 01:03AM

DaveMcG wrote:

Pretty much, yeh. Are you a vegetarian? If you are then we're obviously not gonna see eye to eye, but if you're not, and you only agree with eating animals after they've been raised on a farm, fattened up, marched into a slaughter house with all of their mates, chopped up, then wrapped in plastic and sold to you, then you're a hypocrit.

You're in no position to call me a hypocrite. I havn't explained my opinion on the matter at all.

In an ideal world I'd like to see meat grown artificially in a factory so I can eat delicious steak knowing that nothing had to die for it. However, such is not yet possible, so for our society to eat meat, animals have to die. Im ok with this. Animals are grown on farms (in good conditions, importantly) and put down humanely. Thats the bare minimum death we need for people to eat meat.

So I get pissed when I hear of people killing free animals for the sake of killing them. Even if they eat them, its still a huge waste, a free happy animal didn't need to die, let one of the less happy already doomed to die farm animals take its place.

Tar.Aldarion · 15-04-2006 01:05AM

astrofool wrote:

Tar, you're as much an omnivore as everyone else in the world, not eating meat does not change your genetic make up.

Omnivore as in the definition of eating meat and veg.
Have you done much biology first of all?
There is quite some debate as to whether humans were omnivourous or herbivores. Human tribes of vegans still exist today which date back over 5,000 years.
If you look at tables of generic traits between carnivores, herbivores and omnivores you will notice humas are far closer to herbivores than any other group, biologically and chemically.
The fact is, if we were omnivorous or vegetarian, it does not matter.
Why should we do what is 'natural'?
Our intelligence is seemingly why we don't act like animals, we don't have to.
If you want to talk about this in furhter detail I will happily answer in vegan/vegetarian.

As a matter of interest, does anything you use come from animal derived products? Or is it just meat thats been given up? Would you see animals being locked up for their wool, and eggs as treating them as slaves?

I use no animal derivitives, gelatin, wool etc, except dairy and eggs. Both have to be traced back to healthy environments before I will go near them however and the animals must live good full lives...which I then pay for.:P

Dave! · 15-04-2006 01:10AM

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

"Animals are my friends and I don't eat my friends."

Wasn't that Timothy Treadwell? Nevermind...

Zillah wrote:

You're in no position to call me a hypocrite. I havn't explained my opinion on the matter at all.

That's why I gave you the 2 options mate...

Zillah wrote:

So I get pissed when I hear of people killing free animals for the sake of killing them. Even if they eat them, its still a huge waste, a free happy animal didn't need to die, let one of the less happy already doomed to die farm animals take its place.

How do you know how 'happy' an animal raised for food is?

Or one in 'freedom', for that matter... I wouldn't be too happy having to run away from lions nearly every day! And hyenas, they're pr*cks...!

And for every cow you eat that's been raised to be eaten, another 'unhappy' cow will take its place. It's a bit of a vicious cycle. If everyone killed their own food, then there'd be no more 'unhappy' animals -- it'd be sweet! Animals would die with a smile on their face

Tar.Aldarion · 15-04-2006 01:13AM

Zillah wrote:

In an ideal world I'd like to see meat grown artificially in a factory so I can eat delicious steak knowing that nothing had to die for it. However, such is not yet possible,

It's called quorn. A lot of it tastes the same, some I like more, some less.
Nothing dies for it, I get to eat something that tastes like meat, happy out.

so for our society to eat meat, animals have to die. Im ok with this. Animals are grown on farms (in good conditions, importantly) and put down humanely. Thats the bare minimum death we need for people to eat meat.

Why are you ok with it, you seem to know it is morally wrong to kill these animals as you are against other killing of them.
I suppose your fair conditions statement is fairly true in Ireland, Irish meat. In a lot of places it is as humane as they can try.
Some places it is not.
Foreign meat is however, a different story. If you eat mean from takeaways or non free range, it is dispicable how they are treated.
Videos of KFC's slaughter houses make people want to puke for example.
Tigs are much better here than in America though. A lot of 'humane'(in your eyes) places that kill animals.

So I get pissed when I hear of people killing free animals for the sake of killing them. Even if they eat them, its still a huge waste, a free happy animal didn't need to die, let one of the less happy already doomed to die farm animals take its place.

Woah! You are happy to kill animals and not other ones...eh...eh...

Zillah · 15-04-2006 01:16AM

DaveMcG wrote:

And for every cow you eat that's been raised to be eaten, another 'unhappy' cow will take its place. It's a bit of a vicious cycle. If everyone killed their own food, then there'd be no more 'unhappy' animals -- it'd be sweet! Animals would die with a smile on their face

Oh I fully agree that the system is not a good idea. But im being very pragmatic in my outlook. Its never going to work that the people of Dublin wander off into the Wicklow mountains every few days to hunt down some rabbit and cows for dinner...

As I said, artificially grown meat would be my preference, but for im willing to accept the system as it is. [And by that I mean the ones who actually do conform to the system, with good living conditions et al]

And maybe a free animal isn't "happier", but I like to think they are. They certainly seem happier. Especially considering that some of the smarter ones like pigs have an idea of whats coming.

EDIT:

It's called quorn. A lot of it tastes the same, some I like more, some less.
Nothing dies for it, I get to eat something that tastes like meat, happy out.

Huh... Curious. I shall try this..stuff. Does it actually taste like meat or is it just supposed to? Does it provide the healthy benefits of real meat, such as protein and iron?

Pighead · 15-04-2006 01:17AM

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Omnivore as in the definition of eating meat and veg.
Have you done much biology first of all?
There is quite some debate as to whether humans were omnivourous or herbivores. Human tribes of vegans still exist today which date back over 5,000 years.
If you look at tables of generic traits between carnivores, herbivores and omnivores you will notice humas are far closer to herbivores than any other group, biologically and chemically.
The fact is, if we were omnivorous or vegetarian, it does not matter.
Why should we do what is 'natural'?
Our intelligence is seemingly why we don't act like animals, we don't have to.
If you want to talk about this in furhter detail I will happily answer in vegan/vegetarian.

I use no animal derivitives, gelatin, wool etc, except dairy and eggs. Both have to be traced back to healthy environments before I will go near them however and the animals must live good full lives...which I then pay for.:P

Tar you know Pighead loves and respects you dearly and can't wait for the day when we high five together but how the hell can you bang on about animal rights and power to the panthers when you're typing your angry thoughts on a keyboard made from elephants ivory and moving your mouse which is made from rhino bone. Hypocritical? Just a bit.

Zillah · 15-04-2006 01:19AM

Pighead wrote:

Tar you know Pighead loves and respects you dearly and can't wait for the day when we high five together but how the hell can you bang on about animal rights and power to the panthers when you're typing your angry thoughts on a keyboard made from elephants ivory and moving your mouse which is made from rhino bone. Hypocritical? Just a bit.

...?

Tar.Aldarion · 15-04-2006 01:21AM

Zillah wrote:

...?

Didn't you know I only kill endangered species?

That was an odd image pighead but thatks for it. I like picturing myself in old castles with a cape, a goblet of blood, a laptop and an evil glint in my eye.

oq4v3ht0u76kf2 · 15-04-2006 01:23AM

Without trying to be childish, how the fsck do we know what animals enjoy? For all we know they could all be born suicidal and cannot wait to die - why push our human outlook and views on the world onto animals?

Put it another way, when's the last time an animal came up to you and told you how it felt about it's mates being shot? Right. Until then, it's all hypothetical and I'll continue eating meat, wearing wool and taking the odd potshot at the sh!tehawk of a dog that keeps using my garden as a toilet.

Zillah · 15-04-2006 01:23AM

Bob wrote:

Without trying to be childish, how the fsck do we know what animals enjoy? For all we know they could all be born suicidal and cannot wait to die - why push our human outlook and views on the world onto animals?

Put it another way, when's the last time an animal came up to you and told you how it felt about it's mates being shot? Right. Until then, it's all hypothetical and I'll continue eating meat, wearing wool and taking the odd potshot at the sh!tehawk of a dog that keeps using my garden as a toilet.

The thread is lessened by your presence.

Tar.Aldarion · 15-04-2006 01:27AM

Bob wrote:

Without trying to be childish, how the fsck do we know what animals enjoy? For all we know they could all be born suicidal and cannot wait to die - why push our human outlook and views on the world onto animals?

Put it another way, when's the last time an animal came up to you and told you how it felt about it's mates being shot? Right. Until then, it's all hypothetical and I'll continue eating meat, wearing wool and taking the odd potshot at the sh!tehawk of a dog that keeps using my garden as a toilet.

Bah...bah...bah... *explode*

Manic Moran · 15-04-2006 01:27AM

Bob wrote:

Without trying to be childish, how the fsck do we know what animals enjoy? For all we know they could all be born suicidal and cannot wait to die - why push our human outlook and views on the world onto animals?

Why do I suddenly have visions of the cow in Restaurant at the End of the Universe...

- snip -

A large dairy animal approached Zaphod Beeblebrox's table,
a large fat meaty quadruped of the bovine type with
large watery eyes, small horns and what might almost have
been an ingratiating smile on its lips.

'Good evening', it lowed and sat back heavily on its haunches,
'I am the main Dish of the Day. May I interest you in the parts
of my body?'

It harrumphed and gurgled a bit, wriggled its hind quarters in
to a more comfortable position and gazed peacefully at them.

Its gaze was met by looks of startled bewilderment from
Arthur and Trillian, a resigned shrug from Ford Prefect and
naked hunger from Zaphod Beeblebrox.

'Something off the shoulder perhaps?' suggested the animal,
'Braised in a white wine sauce?'

'Er, your shoulder?' said Arthur in a horrified whisper.

'But naturallymy shoulder, sir,' mooed the animal contentedly,
'nobody else's is mine to offer.'

Zaphod leapt to his feet and started prodding and feeling
the animal's shoulder appreciatively.

'Or the rump is very good,' murmured the animal. 'I've been
exercising it and eating plenty of grain, so there's a lot
of good meat there.'

It gave a mellow grunt, gurgled again and started to chew
the cud. It swallowed the cud again.

'Or a casselore of me perhaps?' it added.

'You mean this animal actually wants us to eat it?' whispered
Trillian to Ford.

'Me?' said Ford, with a glazed look in his eyes, 'I don't mean
anything.'

'That's absolutely horrible,' exclaimed Arthur, 'the most revolting
thing I've ever heard.'

'What's the problem Earthman?' said Zaphod, now transfering his
attention to the animal's enormous rump.

'I just don't want to eat an animal that's standing there
inviting me to,' said Arthur, 'It's heartless.'

'Better than eating an animal that doesn't want to be
eaten,' said Zaphod.

'That's not the point,' Arthur protested. Then he thought about it
for a moment. 'Alright,' he said, 'maybe it is the point. I don't
care, I'm not going to think about it now. I'll just ... er ... I
think I'll just have a green salad,' he muttered.

'May I urge you to consider my liver?' asked the animal,
'it must be very rich and tender by now, I've been force-feeding
myself for months.'

'A green salad,' said Arthur emphatically.

'A green salad?' said the animal, rolling his eyes disapprovingly
at Arthur.

'Are you going to tell me,' said Arthur, 'that I shouldn't have
green salad?'

'Well,' said the animal, 'I know many vegetables that are
very clear on that point. Which is why it was eventually
decided to cut through the whoile tangled problem and breed
an animal that actually wanted to be eaten and was capable of
saying so clearly and distinctly. And here I am.'

It managed a very slight bow.

'Glass of water please,' said Arthur.

'Look,' said Zaphod, 'we want to eat, we don't want to make
a meal of the issues. Four rare stakes please, and hurry.
We haven't eaten in five hundred and sevebty-six thousand
million years.'

The animal staggered to its feet. It gave a mellow gurgle.
'A very wise coice, sir, if I may say so. Very good,' it
said, 'I'll just nip off and shoot myself.'

He turned and gave a friendly wink to Arthur.
'Don't worry, sir,' he said, 'I'll be very humane.'

It waddled unhurriedly off to the kitchen.

NTM

oq4v3ht0u76kf2 · 15-04-2006 01:31AM

NTM... San Jose... Cal Tanker / IMO?

DEmeant0r · 15-04-2006 01:31AM

haha, that's a classic snippet from the book

Dave! · 15-04-2006 01:32AM

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Bah...bah...bah... *explode*

Was that a Muslim fundamentalist sheep?

The Shooting Forum Makes Me Mad

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