Pubs/Clubs on Thurs night (Good Friday etc)

rubadub · 12-04-2006 04:52PM

HelterSkelter wrote:

So are you catholic or not?

I am not (in my mind). Why do you ask? what would your answers/comebacks be to me for both a yes and no answer?

I would also like a quick definition of what you consider a catholic to be, there is a small chance I am.

HelterSkelter · 12-04-2006 05:03PM

rubadub wrote:

I am not (in my mind). Why do you ask?

I noticed you and robinph were the shouting the loudest on this issue and I wondered if you were catholics. I know a lot of people who give out about the Good Friday rule and they are catholics. I find it quite ironic.

rubadub wrote:

what would your answers/comebacks be to me for both a yes and no answer?

I would also like a quick definition of what you consider a catholic to be, there is a small chance I am.

Stop sitting on the fence. You should know yourself if you are a Catholic or not.

I would consider a Catholic to be someone who follows the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Sleepy · 12-04-2006 05:09PM

kippy wrote:

No one has taken away your right to drink......you may not be able to drink in a pub nor buy alcoholic drink on that day but you can still drink......

Fair point but for anyone who owns a pub or off-licence, you're taking away their right to earn their living. Even if it's just for a day, you're still interfering with this. And you're taking away my right to go for a pint in my local.

Muslins do not make up the majority of people in this country-and as far as I am concerned this is not a valid argument......if muslims want to to go to a country that this happens in they should find one which is predominantly Muslin. Ireland is predominantly Catholic.

Did I say anything about health reasons at all?

I dont want to get into a debate about Protestants thinking that they are Catholic......

Would that be a result of the fact that doing so would demonstrate that the majority of this country's population are not in fact Catholic thus discrediting your above argument?

If enough Muslim immigrants settled in Ireland, or enough Irish people converted to Islam to make it the predominant religion, would you then respect their 'right' to enforce Ramadan on the rest of the population? Or more realistically if the majority of the population were to become atheist/agnostic, would you respect the majority then if they decided to ban the closure of churches for 'just one day' a year?

Bottom line-if you dont like it that much you can move to another country.....somewhere where religion as not impact on a persons daily life and where the pubs are open 24/7/365

So, we should just disband Dail Eireann then? Since if we don't like the current laws we should just emmigrate rather than trying to change them? The ability to change the law is a pretty defining trait of democracy. A pretty juvenile argument to be honest.

You can drink yourself into oblivion in those pubs.....even though you can still drink yourself into oblivion in the comfort of your own home this friday while those who want to go to mass will.
Kippy

Where did I say I wanted to drink myself into oblivion? Or that I didn't respect the right of those who want to go to mass to do so? Even the most extreme atheists/agnostics I know respect someone's right to practice whatever religion they like, it's when you start to force those beliefs on others (and that's exactly what is happening) that you encourage people to despise you and your faith.

kippy · 12-04-2006 05:14PM

I dont really think what religion you are comes into it too much....
If you dont like it then get over it....
The country is not going to change for a few people who want it their way.
As I said if you dont like it go somewhere else. No one is forcing you to stay here.
Kippy

rubadub · 12-04-2006 05:15PM

HelterSkelter wrote:

I would consider a Catholic to be someone who follows the teachings of the Catholic Church.

then certainly not! and I dont think I know many catholics either! possibly 2 old women.

I was baptized, had communion & confirmation and attend the odd wedding, thats why I thought I might possibly be catholic in your mind. I don't consider myself to be. I also have attended weddings of other religions.

If this years census shows the majority are not catholic should the ban be abolished?

Jerichoholic · 12-04-2006 05:21PM

rubadub wrote:

then certainly not! and I dont think I know many catholics either! possibly 2 old women.

I was baptized, had communion & confirmation and attend the odd wedding, thats why I thought I might possibly be catholic in your mind. I don't consider myself to be. I also have attended weddings of other religions.

If this years census shows the majority are not catholic should the ban be abolished?

When the census comes to me, I will be telling them that I'm a Jedi, it's just as valid a work of fiction as Christianity to be honest.

HelterSkelter · 12-04-2006 05:34PM

rubadub wrote:

then certainly not! and I dont think I know many catholics either! possibly 2 old women.

I was baptized, had communion & confirmation and attend the odd wedding, thats why I thought I might possibly be catholic in your mind. I don't consider myself to be. I also have attended weddings of other religions.

If this years census shows the majority are not catholic should the ban be abolished?

Personally I don't agree with the ban. If the majority of people want it abolished then so be it. I am the same as you in that I was born and brought up a Catholic but I am not one anymore. I do find it a bit sad that people cannot go one day without alcohol though. I couldn't care less if the ban stays in place or not (and I do like drinking!)

A lot of the people complaining are supposedly Catholics. It is the anniversary of the day (their) God was nailed to a cross and died. Hardly a reason to go out and get píssed.

David19 · 12-04-2006 05:39PM

The issue is not whether people can go a day without alcohol or not. It's about the government taking away people's choice due to religous reasons. Its a silly law that should be done away with. I expect it will be in due course.

HelterSkelter · 12-04-2006 05:43PM

David19 wrote:

The issue is not whether people can go a day without alcohol or not. It's about the government taking away people's choice due to religous reasons. Its a silly law that should be done away with. I expect it will be in due course.

Do you think the bars should be allowed open 24 hours? Including Christmas day?

David19 · 12-04-2006 06:04PM

HelterSkelter wrote:

Do you think the bars should be allowed open 24 hours? Including Christmas day?

What's that got to do with anything? They reason they aren't allowed open for 24 hrs isn't because of an archaic religon based law.

HelterSkelter · 12-04-2006 06:18PM

David19 wrote:

What's that got to do with anything? They reason they aren't allowed open for 24 hrs isn't because of an archaic religon based law.

I'm wondering how far you are prepared to let things go. Do you think there should be some restrictions? What if I want to go for a drink at 5am on Christmas Morning, do you think that should be allowed?

David19 · 12-04-2006 06:27PM

Restrictions for health or social reasons is a totally different argument.

I would like to have the choice to drink on friday evening. I don't because of a religous law, which has nothing to do with health or social reasons.

robinph · 12-04-2006 06:28PM

HelterSkelter wrote:

I'm wondering how far you are prepared to let things go. Do you think there should be some restrictions? What if I want to go for a drink at 5am on Christmas Morning, do you think that should be allowed?

Yes. But that does not mean that a pub has to be open inorder to serve you that drink if the publican does not think he'll get the business at that time to make it worth his while.

I have no problem with pubs deciding of their own accord that they want to shut on Friday, I just have a problem with the government telling them all that they have to close for no reason other than the church said so. Having a set of rules about what times of day a pub is allowed to open and server alcohol is different to picking and chosing which whole days they can open on for religious reasons.

HelterSkelter · 12-04-2006 06:53PM

robinph wrote:

Yes. But that does not mean that a pub has to be open inorder to serve you that drink if the publican does not think he'll get the business at that time to make it worth his while.

Ok then, do you think public holidays on Easter Monday and Christmas Day should be abolished? Why should an employer have to pay his staff double time just because the public holiday is based around a religious event? And do you think employers should be able to make it a condition of employment that you have to work Christmas day if they choose to open (in the same employees sign a contract agreeing to work Sundays/Bank Holidays in some jobs)

Sleepy · 12-04-2006 07:00PM

kippy wrote:

I dont really think what religion you are comes into it too much....
If you dont like it then get over it....
The country is not going to change for a few people who want it their way.
As I said if you dont like it go somewhere else. No one is forcing you to stay here.
Kippy

Are you trolling?

Seriously, I can't tell. Some people are that ignorant and arrogant in their beliefs, so if you're trolling, you've got me.

robinph · 12-04-2006 07:02PM

HelterSkelter wrote:

Ok then, do you think public holidays on Easter Monday and Christmas Day should be abolished? Why should an employer have to pay his staff double time just because the public holiday is based around a religious event? And do you think employers should be able to make it a condition of employment that you have to work Christmas day if they choose to open (in the same employees sign a contract agreeing to work Sundays/Bank Holidays in some jobs)

I'd have no problem with Easter or Christmas etc being abolished.

I'd still be expecting to get the same number of public holidays spread out during the year though. You don't get paid double time or get the day off because its a religious holiday, you get that benifit becasue its a national public holiday and its good to give the general working population days off. People that happen to be working those days get other benifits as a replacement for having to work them, such as more pay.

HelterSkelter · 12-04-2006 08:53PM

robinph wrote:

I'd have no problem with Easter or Christmas etc being abolished.

I'd still be expecting to get the same number of public holidays spread out during the year though. You don't get paid double time or get the day off because its a religious holiday, you get that benifit becasue its a national public holiday and its good to give the general working population days off. People that happen to be working those days get other benifits as a replacement for having to work them, such as more pay.

Yeah, but you've got to admit, it is still a no-go to expect people to work on Christmas Day. There is no problem with people working on any of the other public holidays but they don't like to work Christmas day. Are you one of these people? Would you happily work Christmas Day and take a day in lieu instead?

robinph · 12-04-2006 09:19PM

HelterSkelter wrote:

Yeah, but you've got to admit, it is still a no-go to expect people to work on Christmas Day. There is no problem with people working on any of the other public holidays but they don't like to work Christmas day. Are you one of these people? Would you happily work Christmas Day and take a day in lieu instead?

But nobody is being forced to work on any of the public holidays, it's alway optional or there is some form of appropriate payment for working the 'unsociable' hours.

I've quite happily worked on christmas days in the past and then pocketed the extra cash to then spend on a day off of my own choosing.

kippy · 12-04-2006 09:32PM

Fair point but for anyone who owns a pub or off-licence, you're taking away their right to earn their living. Even if it's just for a day, you're still interfering with this. And you're taking away my right to go for a pint in my local.

No one is forcing these poeple to go into these trades-when they do they get a license-they know full well the laws regarding closing hours etc.....It has always been like that-frankly I dont see what the argument is here.
Many professions work within guidelines and laws-all of which could be argued are taking away their rights to earn a living.....

This right is only being taken away two days a year-if you cant find something else to do these two days I would be of the opinion that you have a problem.....

Would that be a result of the fact that doing so would demonstrate that the majority of this country's population are not in fact Catholic thus discrediting your above argument?

No, not a result of that at all.

If enough Muslim immigrants settled in Ireland, or enough Irish people converted to Islam to make it the predominant religion, would you then respect their 'right' to enforce Ramadan on the rest of the population? Or more realistically if the majority of the population were to become atheist/agnostic, would you respect the majority then if they decided to ban the closure of churches for 'just one day' a year?

Possibly but if that day came I think I would move elsewhere.

So, we should just disband Dail Eireann then? Since if we don't like the current laws we should just emmigrate rather than trying to change them? The ability to change the law is a pretty defining trait of democracy. A pretty juvenile argument to be honest.

Good idea. Possibly the most sane that has been put across so far.
Disband the dail, make carrying guns legal, pubs open 24/7, no religion, nor any laws eminating from religious beliefs! No more schools run by religions organisations-hell, that would be a deadly idea.....

And no I aint trolling.....nor arrogant,
I wouldnt even call myself a seriously practising catholic.....but I have no problem with this law staying in place. It is Ireland and its a law that makes us different from the rest.....
Lets all come into line with the rest of the world-no, I'd prefer not to in this case.
Some people insinuating that I am arrogant/ignorant or other insult that you can possibly throw at me have it wrong.

robinph · 12-04-2006 09:54PM

kippy wrote:

No one is forcing these poeple to go into these trades-when they do they get a license-they know full well the laws regarding closing hours etc.....It has always been like that-frankly I dont see what the argument is here.
Many professions work within guidelines and laws-all of which could be argued are taking away their rights to earn a living.....

This right is only being taken away two days a year-if you cant find something else to do these two days I would be of the opinion that you have a problem.....

I cannot think of any other trade where which days you are allowed to work is set down in law. There are clearly customers wanting to make use of their service, they will therfore be more than happy to provide that service and take money off them. The laws regarding pub opening hours and a pub not getting a license to open at 4am on a Sunday morning is one thing, preventing that pub from being able to trade on what would potentially be one of their busier days is something completely different.

I have no problem with how you spend your time on any day of the year. If you feel the need to go to church on a Sunday then that is entirely up to you and I won't get in your way or say that you can't today becasue I think you should do something different this Sunday, I mean it's not like you can't go tommorow instead now is it as its only one day of the year after all?

But why do you feel the need to prevent me from doing as I please in going to the pub for a pint on a Friday which will not effect your goings on in anyway whatsoever?

Sleepy · 13-04-2006 12:45AM

kippy wrote:

No one is forcing these poeple to go into these trades-when they do they get a license-they know full well the laws regarding closing hours etc.....It has always been like that-frankly I dont see what the argument is here.
Many professions work within guidelines and laws-all of which could be argued are taking away their rights to earn a living.....

Name one other profession that has working hours subject to the whims of a religion in Ireland?

This right is only being taken away two days a year-if you cant find something else to do these two days I would be of the opinion that you have a problem.....

OK. Read this paragraph. I will only say this once more, and if you don't get it this time, I'll simply assume it's because you're too thick to get it: I couldn't give a damn about not being able to drink on a given day. I absolutely object, however, to having another persons religious beliefs forced upon me.

No, not a result of that at all.

Why then? Afraid your faith won't stand to being questioned in an intelligent fashion?

Possibly but if that day came I think I would move elsewhere.

So, you'd object enough to emmigrate if you were in my position? But still feel I don't have the right to complain! That's extremely arrogant, mind-bogglingly ignorant and downright hypocritical.

Good idea. Possibly the most sane that has been put across so far.
Disband the dail, make carrying guns legal, pubs open 24/7, no religion, nor any laws eminating from religious beliefs! No more schools run by religions organisations-hell, that would be a deadly idea....

For the love of Jeff, you try using reductio ad absurdum and end up making sense! That's incredible!!!:eek:

And no I aint trolling.....nor arrogant,
I wouldnt even call myself a seriously practising catholic.....but I have no problem with this law staying in place. It is Ireland and its a law that makes us different from the rest.....
Lets all come into line with the rest of the world-no, I'd prefer not to in this case.
Some people insinuating that I am arrogant/ignorant or other insult that you can possibly throw at me have it wrong.

It pains me to discover that I have it entirely right: you clearly are incredibly arrogant. There's no other explanation for your reasoning in this thread. You tell us that you're not even a "seriously practising catholic" (and ergo, by the laws of that religion, not one) yet you still feel that your religious beliefs should be forced on the rest of the country. There's no other word for that than arrogant tbh.

projectmayhem · 13-04-2006 12:47AM

only in ireland would there be a 5 page fight because pubs are closed on 1 effing day. get over it. use that money on saturday, next week, buy something nice for a loved one, donate it... but for the love of god stfu. the pubs are closed for one night... so what? is it THAT big of a deal that you cannot be pissed on one damn night, regardless of the reasons for the pub being closed?

Sleepy · 13-04-2006 12:54AM

projectmayhem, did you even GLANCE through the rest of the posts in this thread? If not STFU. If so, why the hell bother posting: every point in your post has already been made and refuted.

projectmayhem · 13-04-2006 01:00AM

Sleepy wrote:

projectmayhem, did you even GLANCE through the rest of the posts in this thread? If not STFU. If so, why the hell bother posting: every point in your post has already been made and refuted.

yes, i did glance through. yes, the majority of what i said had been made before... but i thought i'd re-enforce it by saying it again, and questioning the point of the argument in the first place.

kthx.

Sleepy · 13-04-2006 01:06AM

Ehm, word to the wise: repeating a point that has already been soundly hammered in a debate doesn't reinforce the argument, it just makes you look stupid.

the_syco · 13-04-2006 01:12AM

robinph wrote:

what would potentially be one of their busier days is something completely different

If you could drink on Good Friday, it'd be like any other Friday.

blorg · 13-04-2006 01:30AM

(1) What about seperation of church and state and all that? We did change the constitution to remove the "special" position of the Catholic church in 1972 after all (and there was _never_ an established church in _this_ state.)

(2) What other predominantly Catholic countries (Poland, Spain, Italy, etc.) ban the sale of alcohol?

(3) Where does this whole don't drink on Good Friday thing come from anyway? Is it even Catholic in the first place? (Other than the general 'fasting' thing, which I would have thought has more to do with not eating during daylight or avoiding meat, depending on your tradition?)

(4) Why is the sale of meat not banned on Good Friday?

kippy · 13-04-2006 08:51AM

I am sick of being called ignorant, arrogant and indeed hypocritical.
I see nothing wrong with the ban, clearly others do. Thats life-there are always going to be those who agree and those who disagree, and people have a right to state their opinion-thats one of the joys in living in Ireland.

I dont want to see a country that gets so PC that anything that goes against what the minority want is done away with. Especially something as non-serious as this-which has been in place for years.

You cant go to the pub for one day-someone has forced their beliefs on you-so what, live with it, thats the way it is in this country.......complain all you want and come up with as many arguments as you want. Bring it to the dail, run the next election with that one aim in mind. To ban all things which force someone elses beliefs on someone else.

I dont want to see this part of Irish society change just because a few people believe the fews of someone else are being forced on them and they dont agree with it.
There are many thing out there that are being forced on us on a daily basis, this is one which I can accept, if you cant accept it then okay, fair enough.
Dont.

And as for professions that are working within legal boundaries.....
Ever heard of fish quotas, milk quotas? Ever hear of lorry drivers only legally being allowed to only be able drive for certain lengths of time before having to take a break. Granted these are not based on religion. But again-publicans etc know what the deal is when they get into the business-so they have to work within the law.

Anyway, seeing as I am ignorant, hypocrytical and indeed arrogant.....I dont think I have any more to add that wont get hammered back in my face.
So I look forward to a nice peaceful Friday where the pubs wont be open and for a cahnge I will not have that option and perhaps will try something different, like visit some friends I havent seen in a while, go fishing, read a few books, watch a few DVD's. Have a few drinks in the house with family.
Then on Saturday go to the pub and get hammered. Possibly the same on Sunday.

Chris P Duck · 13-04-2006 09:18AM

kippy wrote:

I am sick of being called ignorant, arrogant and indeed hypocritical.
I see nothing wrong with the ban, clearly others do. Thats life-there are always going to be those who agree and those who disagree, and people have a right to state their opinion-thats one of the joys in living in Ireland.

I dont want to see a country that gets so PC that anything that goes against what the minority want is done away with. Especially something as non-serious as this-which has been in place for years.

You cant go to the pub for one day-someone has forced their beliefs on you-so what, live with it, thats the way it is in this country.......complain all you want and come up with as many arguments as you want. Bring it to the dail, run the next election with that one aim in mind. To ban all things which force someone elses beliefs on someone else.

I dont want to see this part of Irish society change just because a few people believe the fews of someone else are being forced on them and they dont agree with it.
There are many thing out there that are being forced on us on a daily basis, this is one which I can accept, if you cant accept it then okay, fair enough.
Dont.

And as for professions that are working within legal boundaries.....
Ever heard of fish quotas, milk quotas? Ever hear of lorry drivers only legally being allowed to only be able drive for certain lengths of time before having to take a break. Granted these are not based on religion. But again-publicans etc know what the deal is when they get into the business-so they have to work within the law.

Anyway, seeing as I am ignorant, hypocrytical and indeed arrogant.....I dont think I have any more to add that wont get hammered back in my face.
So I look forward to a nice peaceful Friday where the pubs wont be open and for a cahnge I will not have that option and perhaps will try something different, like visit some friends I havent seen in a while, go fishing, read a few books, watch a few DVD's. Have a few drinks in the house with family.
Then on Saturday go to the pub and get hammered. Possibly the same on Sunday.

I couldnt agree more

rubadub · 13-04-2006 09:19AM

projectmayhem wrote:

only in ireland would there be a 5 page fight because pubs are closed on 1 effing day. get over it.

AHHHH not this "only in Ireland" crap again, every thread seems to be using that phrase, that is used in every other country too. "typical irish never complain" "typical irish, always complaining" blah blah, theres even a character in some Irish sketch show taking the piss out of this crap.

I did a quick search to see the origins of the ban. Found a few australian forums complaining about the same thing. It is not about the fecking drink, if there was a ban on the sale of milk on good friday and all dairies were forced to close, and milkmen had to take a day off, then people would still be wondering what the logic was behind it, and if it was fair.

Pubs/Clubs on Thurs night (Good Friday etc)

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