Armed Police Force

Wacker · 09-04-2006 12:59PM

grasshopa wrote:

I don't think that gardai having guns is the big issue here. Most of the armed criminals here have been up in court plenty of times and just spit out with a small fine. It's a joke. They're not gonna take it seriously if they can go all the way through the legal system and come out the other end with a slap on the wrist.

Increase minimum sentences to fsck because judges are too lenient, whether that's because they're auld biddy's who want to give them a (twenty) second chance or they're afraid of their own safety or what. It must be disheartening to the gardai who spend all the effort arresting them to see that happen, make it not worth it's while.

If you're found with a firearm, you're a scumbag fullstop, and you deserve to be hung upside down by your testicles and left to rot. You can't just get away with a year or two in jail for that sort of ****.

In my opinion, the real reason that judges are too lenient is that they understand one simple fact; every day that a prisoner uses a cell is a day that another prisoner cannot be using that same cell. There is no point in handing out tough minimum sentences if this means that the perpetrators of the really big crimes will have their sentences drastically cut so as to free up cells for guys doing minimum terms. The real solution is not minimum terms, but more prisons! That way judges could really use their own discretion and take all circumstances into account. Obviously, they could then hand down a tough sentence without knowing that it would reduce the term of a really bad guy.

Of course, prisons and guards have to be paid for, and every cent spent on a jail is a cent not spent on getting someone off a trolley in the A & E. Not easy, is it?

Dave! · 09-04-2006 01:00PM

dbnavan wrote:

What use is a gardai arriving at a scene of an armed robbery with a baton?

There are armed units for responding to those kind of incidents, and they evidentally work well enough.

dbnavan · 09-04-2006 01:02PM

DaveMcG wrote:

There are armed units for responding to those kind of incidents, and they evidentally work well enough.

And they have these in every major town?

Dave! · 09-04-2006 01:09PM

Are there regular armed robberies in every major town where the incident lasts long enough for any Garda to even be aware of it?

And regardless, that would mean that more armed response units are necessary; not that every Garda on the street should be handed a gun.

I like not living in a country where cops have one hand on their gun as they're writing you a ticket (or giving you penalty points, heh heh).

It's only a matter of time though, as was said earlier, as soon as Gardaí start getting shot doing routine things, there'll be no choice. We can only have an unarmed force for so long, looks like the time's up soon enough.

Wertz · 09-04-2006 01:28PM

dbnavan wrote:

And for those who say John Carty was innocent and more people like him will die...."

Next thing John Carthy runs from the house pointing a gun, what use is a baton then? I am not saying they should kill him, but definatly take him down.

The problem in the Carthy case was the armed gardaí at the scene weren't trained for shoot to wound or shoot to disarm; they are only trained for a shoot to kill response...that's what comes of them being geared up to deal with terrorist situations.

Part of me wants armed gardaí, the other part that's seen the bad side of the force says no f*cking way.
I'll say this; the standard uniform officer needs more than what he/she has now, but a gun isn't it...the force needs more armed officers than what they currently have, they need to have eliable back up for the situations that arise in relation to gun crime. 1700 armed officers for the whole country? Considering many of them are tasked with escorting cash in transit, that's just not enough for day to day stuff.

To those talking about longer jail terms, actual sentences being served and a zero tolerance approach, I agree....problem here is lack of jail space and outdated jails. But yet when moves are made to try and build anew, we get the cries of the NIMBYs...
The justice system too needs looked at; many judges are frighteningly out of touch with the real world...far too much reliance on the probabtion service in crimes where a jail term is the only real deterrent.
We also have a huge problem with juveille crime...personally I think the age of criminal responsibility needs to be lowered...kids grow up a lot faster these days, and they know exactly what thye can get away with and are fully aware of the consequences of what they do...it's all very well saying education, better pareting, more social outlets, but we need a carrot AND a stick.

The comment on foreigners is valid too...we've had our fairshare of euro-criminals coming here for "work". They seem to be doing pretty well...it's only a matter of time before we see more organised crime in that regard, unless we move to nip it in the bud...how many of our force can speak even basic Polish, Latvian, whatever? We're ill equipped to deal with a whole multitude of problems further down the line.

Last thing on the gardaí...they face a tough task with small numbers...why is it then they're faced with such outdated practices of having to do their own paperwork, many times in their own hadwriting...take the office work out of the hands of trained officers and give them some back up in the offices...put them back out on the road/street/town where they can be most effective.

blu_sonic · 09-04-2006 01:54PM

imo it will encourage smaller crims to start carrying a firearm to "defend" themselves and imo it would spiral into a situation like the states where some petty crim like a handbag snatcher will be carrying

Pazaz 21 · 09-04-2006 02:20PM

Kingp35 wrote:

I think gun crime is getting out of hand in this country and something has to be done. Bt if im honest I think one of the main reasons that gun crime hasnt been much of a problem in this country in the past is because the gardaí dont carry guns. If every member of the gardaí was armed then I think this could cause escalation among gun crimes with more criminals feeling the need to arm themselves because the gardaí are armed. Im not sure what the answer is if im honest.

Couldn't have said it better myself, well i could, i just couln't be bothered

Eru · 09-04-2006 04:52PM

DaveMcG wrote:

I like not living in a country where cops have one hand on their gun as they're writing you a ticket (or giving you penalty points, heh heh).

Yeah and so do criminals!

Lets be honmest here, does anyone actually doubt that criminal gangs have guns? An armed robbery isnt an armed robbery without a weapons. therefore the gun is there regardless of what the Gardai have. Same with murder and many violent crimes, the guns exist already.

blu_sonic wrote:

imo it will encourage smaller crims to start carrying a firearm to "defend" themselves and imo it would spiral into a situation like the states where some petty crim like a handbag snatcher will be carrying

Why would a small time criminal feel the need to defend himself against an armed Garda? Surely if he is worried about being shot he should A, not commit crime or B, put his hands in the air and surrender?

And your thinking is not mirrored in the vast amount of countries that have armed police.

America has armed everyone, thats different.

hullaballoo · 09-04-2006 05:09PM

Surely tighter border controls should be implemented before anything else happens. I mean, we're an island, so we have a major advantage in terms of policing what comes onto our territory. Police funding should be increased, and that's pretty much the long and the short of it. I'm not sure about arming the rank and file Gardaí, maybe just special forces.

Wertz · 09-04-2006 05:10PM

blu_sonic wrote:

imo it will encourage smaller crims to start carrying a firearm to "defend" themselves and imo it would spiral into a situation like the states where some petty crim like a handbag snatcher will be carrying

Yes but in America handguns are easily and readily available...the tabloids would have you believe it's liek that here too, but not so much...most weaponry is either ex-paramilitary held or black market import from E Eurpoe.

Most petty criminals here are already carrying a knife and are far more likely to use that than they would a gun, if they had one. It's only the big boys and the drug dealers with ready access to firearms...and they're who An Garda need to get to grips with...

Sangre · 09-04-2006 05:43PM

Problem with the media is they make Ireland seem a lot more dangerous than it is.
People read a story in the paper and suddenly Ireland is in chaos. I would not like my gaurds to be armed to the teeth here.
People make mistakes, so lets try and not make those mistakes happen with guns.

I want nothing to do with American police force or justice system. A total joke.

Manic Moran · 09-04-2006 05:59PM

Wertz wrote:

The problem in the Carthy case was the armed gardaí at the scene weren't trained for shoot to wound or shoot to disarm; they are only trained for a shoot to kill response...that's what comes of them being geared up to deal with terrorist situations.

I'm curious... What police forces in the world are trained to shoot to disarm or to wound? Firearms are lethal weapons. If you're shooting, you've got no problem with killing being the result. In that case, you're best off making damned sure your shot hits, as a miss will only make matters worse.

Maybe Tasers as a compromise? They've got about a twenty foot range and are not usually lethal.

NTM

Wertz · 09-04-2006 06:20PM

Yeah but the gardaí in the case in question were armed with SMGs, uzis I think. Their only sniper apparently wasn't in the correct position to make a wounding shot (too close or with bystanders in the field of fire)...it's pretty tough to do anything other than seriously wound or kill with an SMG, since most users are trained to go for centre mass.

the_syco · 10-04-2006 01:59AM

junkyard wrote:

I think I read on one of the papers today that the guards will be armed with pepper spray which is no harm to control some of the scumbags you see fighting after pubs close.

Meh. They should get mace.

Sangre wrote:

I want nothing to do with American police force or justice system. A total joke.

Compare the US with Switzerland (I think). Both have lots of guns, but there's less gun crime in Switzerland, due to more education.

That and every man is given a gun @ the age of 16 (or is it 12 or 18?), shown how to use it... and hey, deja-vu. Same topic, same answer, maybe a year or so ago. Weird.

dbnavan · 10-04-2006 08:53AM

Sangre wrote:

Problem with the media is they make Ireland seem a lot more dangerous than it is.
People read a story in the paper and suddenly Ireland is in chaos. I would not like my gaurds to be armed to the teeth here.
People make mistakes, so lets try and not make those mistakes happen with guns.

I want nothing to do with American police force or justice system. A total joke.

Dublin is a small city is reletive terms to most capital cities in the world, a shooting every couple of nights in it is a dangerous problem as I see it, my grandfather said years ago he could see dublin turning in to a mini chicago, and it has bypassed it at this stage!!

I have lived in america for a while and you get away with nothing with cops over there, no such thing as a nod and a wink over there, criminals over here are running rings around the gardai, half of them know their rights better then the boys in blue do.

I saw a guy last week and this is no joke.....he was in bus aras talking to another bloke, he had just got out of the joy less then a hour, he was arranging for lads to come to bus aras to 'give him some gear' which they openly did, he told them he would back up in a few days when he 'accquired himself some wheels', doubt he was talking about buying it, since he asked them for money for a bus ticket, he then proceeds to tell them how easy it is to get gear into the joy, the guy was obviously thick as he wasnt even keepin his voice down, the lads asked him to keep his voice down serverle times.

I know this is a bit off topic but just goes to prove what a soft touch the justice system is here, this guy was 3 years in the joy, and an hour out and and planning robbing a car, in the national bus station, across the road Store St Garda station, infact the girl who met him to give him the gear met him outside the station!!

Unpossible · 10-04-2006 10:17AM

Can we at least give the gardai body armour ? Or am I going to get the reply "giving them body armour will result in criminals using armour piercing bullets and better guns".

I believe the gardai should be armed, the finnish ploice are armed, its easier for an everyday person to get their hands on a rifle here*, yet I havent seen or heard of any armed crimes over here (Im not saying it never happens, there just isnt regular shoot-outs on the street which people here are suggesting would happen in this scenario).

We also have a huge problem with juveille crime...personally I think the age of criminal responsibility needs to be lowered...kids grow up a lot faster these days

No kids do stupid things and can be easily led, putting them in a remand centre & trying to re-educate them would be better imo.

should be work camps not holiday camps, prisoners rights should go out the window when they are doing time.

I agree, we could use a strike system, 5 convictions and your put away for several years.

Of course, prisons and guards have to be paid for, and every cent spent on a jail is a cent not spent on getting someone off a trolley in the A & E. Not easy, is it?

It depends on how the government goes about it, if they make a hames of it (like they do with so many other things) then we will see them p**sing away millions (if not billions) of euro and we still wont get any new prisons (we might get a nice shiny report saying that we need prisons though).
Also how many of the people are in A&E because of assault or violent crime?

*edit: oops have to make it clear Im talking about here in finland

Manic Moran · 10-04-2006 06:25PM

Sangre wrote:

Problem with the media is they make Ireland seem a lot more dangerous than it is.

Problem with the media is that they make the US seem a lot more dangerous than it is as well.

NTM

Sangre · 10-04-2006 07:53PM

Manic Moran wrote:

Problem with the media is that they make the US seem a lot more dangerous than it is as well.

NTM

I didn't mean to imply the US was dangerous. Just averting to the fact that 2 million people are in jail atm in America and that number is rapidly rising. If you're a black male you have a 1 in 4 chance of being in jail at some point in your life. (correct if me I'm wrong thats off my memory but its a pretty shocking number whatever it is)

Dublin is a small city is reletive terms to most capital cities in the world, a shooting every couple of nights in it is a dangerous problem as I see it

are you for real? every couple of nights a shooting?

Undercoverguy · 11-04-2006 12:41AM

I voted yes with a capital Y. I myself have been involved in a shocking 5 robberies 3 of which included firearms, when the gards arrive it quickly becomes a game of:

Scumbag with Gun -vs - Gard with Batton

Guess who'll win!?!

Long story short Dublin is getting bigger with the gards streched to it's limits, sure gards can sometimes get to the seen of a shootout fairly quickly....

But its getting the armed ones there even faster thats soon going to become the biggest issue....

Manic Moran · 11-04-2006 01:07AM

As an aside from the 'if the cops have guns, the bad guys will all have them as well', how's the crime life in Japan? The country has one of the strongest gun control cultures, yet the police are armed.

NTM

de5p0i1er · 11-04-2006 02:46AM

AK-47 for all the Gardai. Start killing a few of these scumbags and then there wouldn't be as much overcrowding in our prisons.

Snickers Man · 11-04-2006 01:06PM

Look at the date when the commissioner said the Gardai would not be armed. It was during the Civil War. The old RIC was an armed body, to keep the rebellious natives in check. As other posters have said, an unarmed police force is one of this state's great achievements.

What to do about gun crime?

Well no question we have to be tough on those who partake in it. I would suggest a minimum sentence for being caught in posession of an unlicensed firearm. Lock them up for 5-10 years and it will soon lose its appeal.

spideog7 · 11-04-2006 04:59PM

It's only a matter of time though, as was said earlier, as soon as Gardaí start getting shot doing routine things, there'll be no choice. We can only have an unarmed force for so long, looks like the time's up soon enough.

Yup....but it's too late when that happens :eek: so we have to do it now....Me votes YES.
Also Gardaí can't be trained overnight so learning to use guns,clean guns (very important if you want it to work when it has to), disarm criminals and most importantly hit the target and not an innocent bystander...needs to be made a priority in Templemore for the Gardaí going in today because chances are they will have to be armed "tomorrow" when they come out............. so the ball needs to start rolling even if we don't plan on arming the Gardaí for 10 yrs+.
We have to look at this from a logistical point of view.

With a bit of look a few criminals might get shot in a shootout before the are tried and found guilty but get out for good behaviour,good hygiene,good looks .....in fact any excuse to let them go...dang civil rights mad country :mad:

The alternative is arm 6 Gardaí....yup 6

.................................
Just enough for a firing squad !!! and make space in the prisons

fireblade1 · 11-04-2006 05:43PM

The ERU (Emergency Response Unit) i think its called have orders to shoot when they feel either a menber of the public or the gardai are in serious danger.
Also with the john carty case if they hadn't shot him and he had shot someone esp a member of the public there would have been uproar saying the Gardai didn't do their job right.

i don't think it would be a good idea to arm all Gardai maybe just have properly trained sufficiantly manned elite teams. Although i do think that they all Gardai should have proper protection eg bullet proof vests etc.

I would also be worried about the reaction of the public to a Garda who actually shot someone in the line of duty considering the reaction they get when they use their batons (or their reluctance to use them as a result of the bad press)

i def agree with the posts about proper sentancing it is ridiculous the leniency of some judges although i think alot of that is from antiquated laws and precedences set .
we def need more and better prisons and better rehabilitation programmes. i do like the idea of work programmes etc
the availability of drugs is unbelievable not sure where i heard it but i reckom its true that if you go into the joy (and prob other prisons) straight you are very likely to come out with a drug addiction.

Mr Magnolia · 11-04-2006 05:53PM

ferdi wrote:

the gardai have armed units for dealing with this already, the ordinary coppers dont need guns. one of my favorite things about ireland is that the police are unarmed.

I know people who were robbed at gun-point and had to wait 1.25hrs for the Garda to attend, and would you blame them. What would they have done wave their stick and handcuffs at them. The armed units/garda are not always on-duty, it depends on the shift and the station.

If they do arm the Garda further it should only be experienced officers with the relevant training IMHO.

Sangre · 11-04-2006 08:37PM

Harsher prison sentences have no effect on crime whatsoever. If anything it causes a prisoner to be more likely to reoffend.
Few years ago there was a big scramble to build more prisons depsite the fact crime was falling (earlier this decade/last 90s).

Clare gunner · 11-04-2006 11:29PM

Voted dont know on this one.There are too many variables and possibilities to go wrong on this.As a self confessed "gun nut",I would like to see the Gardai armed,BUT my problem is they have so many people in the force that are either mentally incompetant,dangerous,borderline criminals themselves or just plain undesireable to be in any position of law enforcement or to be carrying a deadly weapon.First off their screening process for recruits mUST be tightend 1000 fold.The old nod and wink,having a family member in the Gaurds grauenteeing you a place in Templemore must go.By rights the entire structure of the Gardai,must get a root and branch overhaul before this could even be considerd.That includes of all things their firearms training,it is a sad joke!!
As for the Abbeylara situation.if that had been any other police force,it would have required a SWAT unit to dump a CS grenade in the house and hit Carthy with a taser gun as he came out if need be.
Also you have to ask what kind of an "elite" unit can sneak up to the windows at 3am ,see the guy sleeping with his shotgun,and not formulate a plan to take him down by rushing the house thru all enterances at once.A std simple tactic for any unit in the world.Failing that why was it not possible to distract Carthy outside and then send a K9 [police dog] to subdue him?A properly trained police dog is well capable of that.

Two.In all European countries,and the USA excluding the [UK,and Ireland].The citizenery has access to weaponary of varing leathlithy.From CS or pepper spray up to firearms for self defence[wthin that countries existing firearms laws].It is also an exellent check and balance of Govts getting too heavy handed with it's own people.In the UK and Ireland it is actually prohibited to posses anything in weaponary of the less leathl type for self defence,and even self defence is a very difficult and tricky area to get into and come out a winner in a court.So by arming the Gardai you could be pushing further for a police state here as well,unless the govt will loosen for the irish people a somwhat easier access to firearms and less leathl weapons.But then there we have another crux.Most people have possesion of a deadly weapon,a motorised vechicle.And the way we are wiping each other out here with them leaves me doubtful that some people should be allowed within 20ft of a gun.
So what to do?Enforce the laws on the books as they stand.We have enough laws if enforced would be a deterrant,but you have to have judges willing to impose them as well.Now we have to redo the judical system as well.Plus it is my firm belif that some judges have been gotton to by the criminal element out there.Judges get no special protection in nthe Irish state either.
All in all it is too narrow an approach to just say arm the gardai and crime will dissapper.It wont,and we might get a worse society than we already have.

jcatony · 13-04-2006 12:15AM

Drug dealers shooting drug dealers....personally i dont have a problem with this. Let them at it, i say.

kirving · 13-04-2006 12:42AM

jcatony wrote:

Drug dealers shooting drug dealers....personally i dont have a problem with this. Let them at it, i say.

Perfect! But the problem arises when they are racing down the M50 at 100mph, shootin all over the place.

In America, on some of the late subway trains home (where people can only get off) there is a guard standing opposite the door, hand on his gun. So no messin there. If people thought the gardai were a force to be recconed with, they wouldnt step out of line, and I'm talking about robbing from shops and the like, as for gangs...

Give the gardai a few apaches(to stop the m50 style encounters), and give the (trained) gardai m-16's(or auto matic pistols) and body armor. That'll even the playing field between tha gangsters and guards. A few blackhawks loaded with ERU's circuling dublin waiting for the call to impose some tough justice onto the country's scum.

Maybe I seem a bit drastic, but if you knew that once you pulled a gun you wouldn't live to tell the tale, the gangs with guns problem would be gone overnight.

tba · 13-04-2006 01:07AM

Kevin Irving wrote:

Give the gardai a few apaches(to stop the m50 style encounters), and give the (trained) gardai m-16's(or auto matic pistols) and body armor. That'll even the playing field between tha gangsters and guards. A few blackhawks loaded with ERU's circuling dublin waiting for the call to impose some tough justice onto the country's scum.

Just Like Bagdad! Awesome!

Armed Police Force

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