Morgan Spurlock's 30 Days - Living on Minimum Wage

bonkey · 04-04-2006 01:11PM

BoozyBabe wrote:

He was signed up with a temp agency, so it could be a different job, different rates each day

If he was getting different rates each day, then they couldn't all surely be minimum wage?

Shabadu wrote:

Good choice Freelancer. Lindaloo, try Fast Food Nation too if you're curious about the way minimum wage American employees are treated. They are both great reading.

Reefer Madness (also by the same author) goes into the same in even more detail.

Mayhem# wrote:

Isnt labour & wage levels not just a question of supply & demand?

No. It should be a question of supply and demand. However, when you have a grey market of labour to the extent that exists in the US, you end up with the following situation:

Excessive supply of workers ==> too much supply ==> wages go down
Shortage of workers ==> more are "imported" to the grey market to avoid wage increases ==> wage increases stunted, followed quickly by an excessive supply.

Mayhem# wrote:

I have been in that position and without patting myself on the back I've managed to "better myself"....
And seeing that I do not consider myself any better, stronger or smarter than the next person I do not see why someone else should not be able to do the same...

"Better, stronger or smarter" being the only three factors that distinguish people, yes? Availability of opportunity has no influence? Nor Luck? Nor anything else?

You bettered yourself, they haven't, but you don't consider yourself better, stronger or smarter than them.....so what do you attribute the difference to?

Seems like any answer will either contradict the assertion that you're no better than them (e.g. if you were to suggest they are too lazy or something), or must suggest that these three factors aren't all that matter (thus undermining the notion that if you can do it, anyone can).

jc

MorningStar · 04-04-2006 01:12PM

jsr wrote:

What figures are you refering to? The UN Study refered to the developed world, you don't tend to have to bribe your way out in/out of them very often. The study was also an ecomonic one not a political one and nowhere I did I entend to imply otherwise. Again sorry for no link as it makes it hard to debate the merits of the doc. It was by the UN and is over a year old. That said I think you have the developing and the developed world mixed up. The level of corruption in the developing world does indeed require bribes to be paid for day to day services but corruption in the developed world tends not to effect the day to day running of things.

Sorry Ireland rates very high for corruption but when you look at how it is calculated it is basing in on the number of tribunals in part and people's belief and not fact. If you were to beleive the reports Ireland is close to many African countries

mayhem# · 04-04-2006 01:17PM

bonkey wrote:

No. It should be a question of supply and demand. However, when you have a grey market of labour to the extent that exists in the US, you end up with the following situation:

Excessive supply of workers ==> too much supply ==> wages go down
Shortage of workers ==> more are "imported" to the grey market to avoid wage increases ==> wage increases stunted, followed quickly by an excessive supply.

Explain the concept of a "grey market" labour market to me.

You bettered yourself, they haven't, but you don't consider yourself better, stronger or smarter than them.....so what do you attribute the difference to?

Well, seeing that you have all the answers why don't you tell me?

E.

Freelancer · 04-04-2006 01:22PM

bonkey wrote:

If he was getting different rates each day, then they couldn't all surely be minimum wage?

They were all in the region of minimum wage, at one point he gets quite excited at an extra fifty cents an hour.

Reefer Madness (also by the same author) goes into the same in even more detail.

Excellent book.

No. It should be a question of supply and demand. However, when you have a grey market of labour to the extent that exists in the US, you end up with the following situation:

Excessive supply of workers ==> too much supply ==> wages go down
Shortage of workers ==> more are "imported" to the grey market to avoid wage increases ==> wage increases stunted, followed quickly by an excessive supply.

It's not just poor migrant workers, five years ago the UK were desperate for doctors and imported them from the developing world. Today with UK universities churning out Doctors, the UK government quietly switched the rule back to the job must go to the most "compedent" (not best, compedent) UK or EU national applying for the job.

So now you have trained specialists in UK hospitals (and indeed, non EU National doctors, sitting the board qualification exams) who cannot find work because of a twist in legislation.

Its not exactly the same situation, but its a situation were people from the developing world, stood up got an education in their home country, left came to the UK to better themselves and provide a vital role for society, now thrown to the wayside unable to get work.

Mayhem's simplistic worldview cannot handle such complexities.

jsr · 04-04-2006 01:23PM

mayhem# wrote:

Explain the concept of a "grey market" labour market to me.

Well, seeing that you have all the answers why don't you tell me?

E.

Is that is not what they were doing?!:D

mayhem# · 04-04-2006 01:38PM

Freelancer wrote:

So now you have trained specialists in UK hospitals (and indeed, non EU National doctors, sitting the board qualification exams) who cannot find work because of a twist in legislation.

Its not exactly the same situation, but its a situation were people from the developing world, stood up got an education in their home country, left came to the UK to better themselves and provide a vital role for society, now thrown to the wayside unable to get work.

A clear case of supply being greater than demand...

Mayhem's simplistic worldview cannot handle such complexities.

So worldviews have to be complicated in order to be correct?

E.

Freelancer · 04-04-2006 01:50PM

mayhem# wrote:

A clear case of supply being greater than demand...

:rolleyes:

These are the sort of men and women who you claim to admire, hardworkers, coming from the developing world, answering a call to help a developed worlds health system, and after years of doing so now find themselves flung on the disgard heap. Many of these people will have to work in the grey and black labour markets to stay in the UK.

These are people who bettered themselves and are going to have to suffer now your simplisitic supply and demand situation resolves itself.

So worldviews have to be complicated in order to be correct?

E.

Not correct, more accurate and aware of the reality is more complex than the simple black and white your protray it

bonkey · 04-04-2006 02:19PM

mayhem# wrote:

Explain the concept of a "grey market" labour market to me.

In American terms, it refers hte practice of having a large notionally-illegal migrant workforce. Technically its illegal to employ such people but the law has no interest in enforcing this properly. Thus, you have an employment pool of workers which is neither illegal in any meaningful sense of the word, nor legal. Thus, neither black nor white, but grey.

Well, seeing that you have all the answers why don't you tell me?

I think I've already made my position clear - I'm suggesting that your comment doesn't hold water as it inherently contradicts itself - you claim you are no better (or at least that don't see yourself that way) but also argue that you are not the same as you have avoided the problems that others have not.

Your "I'm no better and I did it" line of reasoning is therefore inapplicable. It requires the presence of factors that you fail to consider the relevance of, or it requires that the base assertions that you made (wrt. being no better) are false.

Thats my answer. Apparently I have them all....or will you contradict yourself on that one as well?

jc

nesf · 04-04-2006 02:24PM

mayhem# wrote:

Hey, do I look like I care if you care?
Biatch. (better now?)

E.

Banned for 2 weeks. Editting the post don't make the original any better. You really should know better.

daveirl · 04-04-2006 02:40PM

This post has been deleted.

ionapaul · 04-04-2006 02:57PM

I imagine that one of the reasons why hundreds of thousands of illegals (most surely on minimum wage) protested last week in America for the right to stay in the country (on minimum wage) is that they place some value on the hope for eventual betterment and achievement of the American dream. Also, having spent some time in Central America and more than 5 years in the US itself, I am quite confident in saying I would rather be on minimum wage in the States than without a job in Central America. Millions would agree with me!

I also know personally a man who has achieved the American dream - a father of a good friend I was in graduate school with, he illegally crossed the border to the States from Mexico for the first time in the 60s to work, without question, on minimum wage as a fruit picker in California. He subsequently was deported three times, and once came back over the border in the boot of a car! He is now a successful construction foreman with a lovely big home and both his children have graduate degrees and own property. Imagine the added value of hope, of the American dream, to minimum wage workers who hear that story?

As for me, I'd prefer to be on the dole in Ireland than working on minimum wage in the States! But then again I am a lazy bugger...

Macha · 04-04-2006 02:59PM

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Ok Ok I exaggerated. There are public hospitals but they are only really good in an emergency. Routine care is another matter altogether.

And about 1 in 7 Americans don't have health insurance and so are reliant on these hospitals. I wonder what the budget is, on average, for a private hospital and for a public hospital.

Yes the US budget allocated x billion of dollars last year, but how much of that filters down to the hospitals, etc? US doctors are among the highest paid in the world. Also, does a lot of that money go on research?

Sleepy · 04-04-2006 03:05PM

ionapaul wrote:

I imagine that one of the reasons why hundreds of thousands of illegals (most surely on minimum wage) protested last week in America for the right to stay in the country (on minimum wage) is that they place some value on the hope for eventual betterment and achievement of the American dream. Also, having spent some time in Central America and more than 5 years in the US itself, I am quite confident in saying I would rather be on minimum wage in the States than without a job in Central America. Millions would agree with me!

I also know personally a man who has achieved the American dream - a father of a good friend I was in graduate school with, he illegally crossed the border to the States from Mexico for the first time in the 60s to work, without question, on minimum wage as a fruit picker in California. He subsequently was deported three times, and once came back over the border in the boot of a car! He is now a successful construction foreman with a lovely big home and both his children have graduate degrees and own property. Imagine the added value of hope, of the American dream, to minimum wage workers who hear that story?

As for me, I'd prefer to be on the dole in Ireland than working on minimum wage in the States! But then again I am a lazy bugger...

While it's a lovely story paul, and one we hear variants of all the tim, I think you'd admit yourself that your friend's father achieved that in a different America that what exists today.

ionapaul · 04-04-2006 03:26PM

Sleepy wrote:

While it's a lovely story paul, and one we hear variants of all the tim, I think you'd admit yourself that your friend's father achieved that in a different America that what exists today.

No, I certainly wouldn't agree with you there. In the 60s I think the hurdles facing new immigrants of a certain colour were even greater. The man couldn't (and even today can't really) speak English! The US remains the country of choice for millions of immigrants who are willing to work hard because they honestly believe they can achieve the American dream. From my experience in both countries, if there is an 'Irish dream' for our immigrants, I don't think it will be as obtainable as if they moved to the States. Who knows though, maybe we'll have some Nigerian and Polish millionaires with similar stories in Ireland in 20 years?

CodeMonkey · 04-04-2006 04:06PM

ionapaul wrote:

The US remains the country of choice for millions of immigrants who are willing to work hard because they honestly believe they can achieve the American dream. From my experience in both countries, if there is an 'Irish dream' for our immigrants, I don't think it will be as obtainable as if they moved to the States. Who knows though, maybe we'll have some Nigerian and Polish millionaires with similar stories in Ireland in 20 years?

bonkey wrote:

In American terms, it refers hte practice of having a large notionally-illegal migrant workforce. Technically its illegal to employ such people but the law has no interest in enforcing this properly. Thus, you have an employment pool of workers which is neither illegal in any meaningful sense of the word, nor legal. Thus, neither black nor white, but grey.

Well can the immigrant workers find work in their home countries? Can they find work that pays better than the minimum wage in the states or other western countries? Is their poor standard of living compared to the priviledged (i.e. you and me) better than the standard of living in their home country? People are willing to be exploited a lot of the times because the alternative might be even worse. Plus they are doing the ****ty jobs that snobby priviledged kids like us will never do, especially for minimum wage. Raise the minimum wage, promise them all 1st world standard of living and even more illegal immigrants will come into the country. So what are the solutions?

jsr · 04-04-2006 04:29PM

CodeMonkey wrote:

Well can the immigrant workers find work in their home countries? Can they find work that pays better than the minimum wage in the states or other western countries? Is their poor standard of living compared to the priviledged (i.e. you and me) better than the standard of living in their home country? People are willing to be exploited a lot of the times because the alternative might be even worse.

True but ever wonder why many of these people come from countries which have vast mineral/natural wealth. The ecomonic/political heavy handed nature of western politics has often crippled their economies or prevented them from developing. That is why they are over here looking for a better life, all too often we have recked their gaff.
Would anyone be shocked if they heard a boat load of Iraqs finest arrived over there looking for work even though their country posesses the second largest quantity of the the worlds most valuable comsumer good?

RoundyMooney · 04-04-2006 04:30PM

:mad:

Eddie Hobbes

:mad:

It's Hobbs goddammitt..., Hobbs!

Hobbes is a boards user, and Calvin's buddy.

Good post Boozy, pity it got sidetracked...

biko · 04-04-2006 04:33PM

mayhem# wrote:

Spurlock is nothing but a media hungry slut who is only on a big self promotional trip. He cares **** all about the less priviliged classes in the US (or elsewhere). He's seen Michael Moore and decided that he coild do that too.....

E.

Where do I get the feeling it's MacDonald's talking here?

jsr · 04-04-2006 04:40PM

RoundyMooney wrote:

:mad:

:mad:

It's Hobbs goddammitt..., Hobbs!

Hobbes is a boards user, and Calvin's buddy.

Good post Boozy, pity it got sidetracked...

Could you figure out who they were on about? Yeah? Well then relax. No harm done. As for saying that it is a shame the thread got sidetracked after ranting about spelling, well at least it shows you have a sense of irony;)

RoundyMooney · 04-04-2006 04:40PM

biko wrote:

Where do I get the feeling it's MacDonald's talking here?

I'm NOT lovin' it... (If it is indeed the Fallen Arches speaking).

Black_Couch · 04-04-2006 05:01PM

If they increase the minimum wage it will have 2 effects

1) Employers less likely to hire/more strict about hiring people thus they reduce the number of people they hire. This leaves more people unemployed which is worse than earning the current wage rate.

2) Economy slows down, government has less to spend on social benefits etc.

Really need a diagram to explain it.

Freelancer · 04-04-2006 05:13PM

Black_Couch wrote:

If they increase the minimum wage it will have 2 effects

1) Employers less likely to hire/more strict about hiring people thus they reduce the number of people they hire. This leaves more people unemployed which is worse than earning the current wage rate.

2) Economy slows down, government has less to spend on social benefits etc.

Really need a diagram to explain it.

Alternatively, people making more means more cash is being spent. Employee's standard of living goes up, shops see a revenue increase, pubs bars and restaurants see more people in there. Shops and businesses expand and employee more people. All this adds to increased revenue to the exchequer. People want and can spend more on accomdation, landlords, rennoviate properties. Long term unemployed see benefits now there is a significant disparity between the dole and minimum wage, and leave dole Qs.

Now thats an overly simplistic version of events, small business's and business' with cashflow issues would struggle to meet the increased minimum wage and the increase to the excheqeur would be slow and steady. However there is historical precident, Ford in 1914 doubled the pay of his workers, forcing many of his competitors do the same, the domino effect was a radical improvement in worker pay in the US and helped drive the post war economy forward.

Now I'm not saying all that would happen, but it's slightly more plausible then your "economics for dummies" theory.

Kernel32 · 04-04-2006 05:52PM

The Federal Minimum Wage is $5.15 an hour. This is the minimum a person can be paid for most jobs. Some jobs such as waitress can be paid less because they get tips. Each state can set its own minimum wage. Most align with the federal but some go higher. In Maine where I live it's $6.50 hour.

Health insurance is a big problem but what I have read here blows it out of proportion. There are assistance programs such as Medicare and Medicaid. Most employers offer some form of health insurance but often at a high price. Walmart as an example is getting huge pressure lately to offer more affordable health insurance to their employees. Many states are subsidizing health insurance for their residents. Here in Maine there is a sliding scale system of deep discounts based on your income.

rubadub · 04-04-2006 05:54PM

Sleepy wrote:

How did he show you could live healthly on McDonalds? He was in bits by the end of the documentary!?

At the end he admitted that it was a bit unreasonable and that most do not eat like that. The portions in the US are just ridiculous, when I was in mcd's many were just going supersize and splitting with friends. They are buckets of coke, and sacks of chips.

If you went to most "normal" resturaunts in Ireland and got a full irish breakfast, 3 course lunch, and 3 course dinner, you could also be getting a good 4-5000kcal into you in a day, and after a month you would probably be as badly off.

At least the documentary did show the skinny guy who ate 2 big macs a day. Meat, lettuce, pickles, onions, bread, mostly processed stuff but no more than most sandwiches people would buy in a supermarket or sandwich bar(which many I know consider "healthy" for some reason). I remember nutritionalists in the UK revising the school menus were asking to stop this over-demonising of burgers.

This story of him spending 11hrs travelling in one day would be exactly what I would expect from him, overburdening himself so it looks like his plight is worse than it was. Was he blowing his money on branded food & clothes? Eating in takeaways etc? Any other obvious flaws like the supersize documentary?

Sam Vimes · 04-04-2006 06:26PM

mayhem# wrote:

And who will pay for the cost of healthcare then? The government? And where do they get their money?

well, yes the government will pay for healthcare. thats kind of the point of tax. the government takes a portion of our wages and in return provides services such as good public transport and a health care system*

*well not in ireland but you get the idea

Freelancer · 04-04-2006 06:28PM

rubadub wrote:

If you went to most "normal" resturaunts in Ireland and got a full irish breakfast, 3 course lunch, and 3 course dinner, you could also be getting a good 4-5000kcal into you in a day, and after a month you would probably be as badly off.

I think there were several points he was trying to make is

A) Mc Donalds pimp the gigantic proportion on you. You don't go into your local cafe and say, "gissus the full Irish there luv" and she says "you can have the bleeding massive Irish for just 50c more, ya want it" And along comes a obscene amount of food.

He was making points about the processed sugar in the food, the amount of additivies

C) the way it is marketed, particularly at children.

This story of him spending 11hrs travelling in one day would be exactly what I would expect from him, overburdening himself so it looks like his plight is worse than it was.

No, and I've its a common complaint about people stuck in minimum wage jobs. American cities are sprawls. Working in one mall at the arse end of town, and living in another shítty suburb at the other end, with no public transport system means they have to do that.

Was he blowing his money on branded food & clothes? Eating in takeaways etc? Any other obvious flaws like the supersize documentary?

Very realistic, shopping in thrift stories, getting furniture from church group ones. He took his girlfriend out for a vegan meal for her birthday, tap water, shared starter, and two main course, blew his 20 dollar budget by a whole couple of bucks.

rubadub · 04-04-2006 06:49PM

Freelancer wrote:

I think there were several points he was trying to make is

A) Mc Donalds pimp the gigantic proportion on you. You don't go into your local cafe and say, "gissus the full Irish there luv" and she says "you can have the bleeding massive Irish for just 50c more, ya want it" And along comes a obscene amount of food.

He was making points about the processed sugar in the food, the amount of additivies

C) the way it is marketed, particularly at children.

I agree with those points. I was just responding to the person saying he was "in bits" after a month, and how it was totally unhealthy. He was actually only asked a few times if he wanted to supersize (I think much to his surprise and disappointment). In Ireland I regularly see the same tactic, overcharging on smaller meals with apparent discounts for larger ones. Many places have 3 or 4 breakfast "deals" with only 50c-€2 in the difference for a far bigger one, many would hit 2000kcal.
Point is if you go to a "normal" returaunt and eat foolishly you will end up in a bad way, no need to demonise just one company, demonise ignorant idiots.

Freelancer wrote:

No, and I've its a common complaint about people stuck in minimum wage jobs. American cities are sprawls. Working in one mall at the arse end of town, and living in another shítty suburb at the other end, with no public transport system means they have to do that.

Just seems he could have got a job closer if he really tried. I remember in school & college people all had low paid jobs and worked nearby. If it is min wage it requires little or no skill so you can be selective of your company. In a high skill job the company is selective of you so you may have to travel a long way. I cannot imagine a guy in wexford commuting to dublin to work in a fast food resturaunt.

Freelancer wrote:

Very realistic, shopping in thrift stories, getting furniture from church group ones. He took his girlfriend out for a vegan meal for her birthday, tap water, shared starter, and two main course, blew his 20 dollar budget by a whole couple of bucks.

Good stuff, want to watch it now, will have to look out for repeats.

WhiteWashMan · 04-04-2006 07:20PM

mayhem# wrote:

Hey, do I look like I care if you care?
Biatch. (better now?)

E.

banned

segadreamcast · 04-04-2006 07:25PM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

banned

Nesf beat you to it

.

RoundyMooney · 04-04-2006 08:38PM

jsr wrote:

Could you figure out who they were on about? Yeah? Well then relax. No harm done. As for saying that it is a shame the thread got sidetracked after ranting about spelling, well at least it shows you have a sense of irony;)

Ah, well you see, my irony was always my strong point.

Morgan Spurlock's 30 Days - Living on Minimum Wage

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