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Muslim cartoons...

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Comments

  • #32
    RE*AC*TOR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,475 ✭✭✭RE*AC*TOR


    dudara wrote:
    Lots of moderate western muslims are offended by this, never mind the terrorist element. Don't focus in on one section exclusively.

    As a previous poster said, it's all about respect.


    That's the point, exactly - the cartoons were respectful by western standards. They were perfectly within our boundaries regarding respect towards religion. They were published in a western country. No one was ramming this down Muslim throats.
    If the other cartoons (that were falsely attributed to the danish paper) of Muhammed with a snout, or being sodomized by a dog, had been printed then I could understand this fuss. They send out a particular insulting message, whereas the actual cartoons all make sober, soci-religious observations.


  • #33
    Boggle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Boggle


    All this fuss illustrates one point however. It shows how little we know in general about Muslim religion and law. As westeners, we need to learn a little more.
    Why should i need to learn about Muslims?If I wish to go to a Muslim country I respect their traditions, but when at home I'll observe my own culture and not be shackled by the beliefs of others... next you'll have post-offices pulling toy piglets from the shelves cos its offensive - oh wait, too late!!

    Long and short, all religions are more than welcome at the table - as long as they do not force their own religion/intolerances onto the others.


  • #34
    themole
    Closed Accounts Posts: 888 ✭✭✭themole


    Boggle wrote:
    Long and short, all religions are more than welcome at the table - as long as they do not force their own religion/intolerances onto the others.

    i would agree with the above.

    some one posted on the irishtimes breaking news the following comment
    (in relation to the cartoon thing)
    "Freedom of expression is a right that carries with it a duty not to offend."

    just thought i would air my opinion on this.

    i think the staments is rubbish.

    you would need to define offence and i would not like to put such restrictions on freedom of speach.


  • #35
    toffeapple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 454 ✭✭toffeapple


    I think its all been blown out of proportion..Its like after 911 when CNN showed pictures of Muslims "celebrating" on the streets..this was a farce..they just rounded up some loo laa's of the street and asked them to dance around burning American flags...The media need to create an "enemy" so they can keep us in fear and exploit us with sensationalism....if you talk to muslims the reality is there just normal people trying to get on with there life's raises kids etc just like any of us...same with any race or creed....

    if a minority of extremists take to the streets so what? they still have neo Nazi rallies all over Europe....how much coverage does this receive??
    fu#k all...as i said they need to create an enemy..its all boll0x.


  • #36
    mcgarnicle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 779 ✭✭✭mcgarnicle


    toffeapple wrote:
    I think its all been blown out of proportion..Its like after 911 when CNN showed pictures of Muslims "celebrating" on the streets..this was a farce..they just rounded up some loo laa's of the street and asked them to dance around burning American flags...The media need to create an "enemy" so they can keep us in fear and exploit us with sensationalism....if you talk to muslims the reality is there just normal people trying to get on with there life's raises kids etc just like any of us...same with any race or creed....

    if a minority of extremists take to the streets so what? they still have neo Nazi rallies all over Europe....how much coverage does this receive??
    fu#k all...as i said they need to create an enemy..its all boll0x.

    You must be joking, i think youre reading too much 1984/ michael moore. Why did the iranian guy say he would wipe israel off the map? we know he wont do it, it was just to appeal domestically, so obviously if he is doing that there must be a pretty large desire among normal muslims to wipe israel off the map. I think you need to lay off the media, they are just reporting what they see, if you talk to journalists the reality is they're just normal people trying to get on with their lives, raise kids etc..... just like any of us.......... same as any job or profession........


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  • #37
    toffeapple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 454 ✭✭toffeapple


    Iran is different senario...Its Iran not Muslims...thats like equating Christians with Americans..we were talking muslims not Iranians...And 1984 is one of my favorites books and IMO a master piece..moore although to biased to present a balanced argument does make some points that are hard to disbute.....I wasnt refering to journalists per se so don't put words in my mouth....ask your "journalist" friends...fear sells.
    Before you start im not anti war either


  • #38
    BaZmO*
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭BaZmO*


    ronoc wrote:
    Did christians cause violent riots and blame the English government for letting Monthy Python create it??
    Did you read the rest of my posts, or just the one that you quoted?


  • #39
    HelterSkelter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,585 ✭✭✭HelterSkelter


    RE*AC*TOR wrote:
    That's the point, exactly - the cartoons were respectful by western standards. They were perfectly within our boundaries regarding respect towards religion. They were published in a western country. No one was ramming this down Muslim throats.

    Yeah but there are pleanty of Muslims living in western countries who live like us, dress like us, work in the same jobs as us, watch the same tv programs as us. There are Irish Muslims, British Muslims, French Muslims, etc who have been living here for generations. They ARE western. And they ARE offended by the cartoon.

    My reading of the cartoon is it was suggesting that all Muslims support suicide bombers. The reality is totally different. Yet in countries like Ireland where most people don't have much contact with Muslims and don't know much about the religion it renforces the incorrect opinion. That is why I think it is wrong to publish something like that. It is adding to a prejudice against Muslims.

    I wonder would people be defending the cartoon if it was taking the piss out of black people? The paper would be condemed by everyone as being racist.


  • #40
    mcgarnicle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 779 ✭✭✭mcgarnicle


    toffeapple wrote:
    Iran is different senario...Its Iran not Muslims...thats like equating Christians with Americans..we were talking muslims not Iranians...And 1984 is one of my favorites books and IMO a master piece..moore although to biased to present a balanced argument does make some points that are hard to disbute.....I wasnt refering to journalists per se so don't put words in my mouth....ask your "journalist" friends...fear sells.
    Before you start im not anti war either

    My point was that there are alot of muslims who, in my oppinion, are nutters. They respond to threats to wipe out entire nations, they regularly go through streets waving around ak-47s etc. Im not saying they are all like this, but to compare the numbers of extremist muslims to the numbers of neo-nazis is pretty stupid. Moore is a fool and 1984 is just a piece of fiction and because you can see similarities today doesn't mean that we are living on air strip 1. My point about the journalists was that you seem to be giving out about people bunching muslims up into one big group while you then talk about "the media" as if it is some form of massive conspiracy to keep us all at war forever, just so they can have something to report, give me a break.


  • #41
    HelterSkelter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,585 ✭✭✭HelterSkelter


    mcgarnicle wrote:
    My point was that there are alot of muslims who, in my oppinion, are nutters.

    I heard a Christian nutter on the news complaining about the opening of Stringfellows in Dublin. A lot of Christians are nutters. :rolleyes:


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  • #42
    RE*AC*TOR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,475 ✭✭✭RE*AC*TOR


    HelterSkelter wrote:
    I wonder would people be defending the cartoon if it was taking the piss out of black people? The paper would be condemed by everyone as being racist.

    The cartoons didn't take the piss out of anything in fairness, they were quite sober.


  • #43
    dudara
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    HelterSkelter wrote:
    Yeah but there are pleanty of Muslims living in western countries who live like us, dress like us, work in the same jobs as us, watch the same tv programs as us. There are Irish Muslims, British Muslims, French Muslims, etc who have been living here for generations. They ARE western. And they ARE offended by the cartoon.

    This is what I said earlier, but it's said better here. There are western muslims, who believe in free speech and so on. But these cartoons still insult them. People here are focussing too exclusively on the reactions of the militant muslims, who I think we can all agree, are not worth our consideration.


  • #44
    mcgarnicle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 779 ✭✭✭mcgarnicle


    HelterSkelter wrote:
    I heard a Christian nutter on the news complaining about the opening of Stringfellows in Dublin. A lot of Christians are nutters. :rolleyes:

    Oh ok, i am wrong, its ok for muslims to blow up israel and all the rest because some old biddy doesnt want a strip club down her road. I think you need to get some perspective, also, id imagine there would be a fatwah on stringfellow pretty quickly if he tried to open a strip club in baghdad.


  • #45
    RE*AC*TOR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,475 ✭✭✭RE*AC*TOR


    HelterSkelter wrote:
    I heard a Christian nutter on the news complaining about the opening of Stringfellows in Dublin. A lot of Christians are nutters. :rolleyes:
    As far as I'm concerned all you religious people are nutters, but when you (they) start imposing their crazy beliefs on other peoples' rights/freedoms, then a line has been crossed that shouldn't be.


  • #46
    Mmmm_Lemony
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 891 ✭✭✭Mmmm_Lemony


    faceman wrote:
    Dont be daft - not all muslims live in the arab world, im sure there are plenty in denmark. Its nothing to do with terror attacks. its double standards if just because most christians cudnt give a toss if u draw a pic of the pope in bed with shirley valentine, doesnt mean u have the rite to diss others. Its called respect.

    Granted whatever clown declared a "Day of Anger" in the muslim world, shud be hung by his ghoulies upside down over a pit of savage starving lions.

    I dont care what religon u are, whichever God you believe in certainly wudnt approve of a "day of anger" or killing non believers.

    Where could I get one of these pictures?


  • #47
    HelterSkelter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,585 ✭✭✭HelterSkelter


    mcgarnicle wrote:
    Oh ok, i am wrong, its ok for muslims to blow up israel and all the rest because some old biddy doesnt want a strip club down her road. I think you need to get some perspective, also, id imagine there would be a fatwah on stringfellow pretty quickly if he tried to open a strip club in baghdad.

    My point is that just because a minority of Muslims are involved in violent demonstrations it is wrong to imply that all Muslims are like this. The majority will get angry about it, talk about it at the dinner table and in the mosque but that will be the end of it. I used the nutter complaining about Stringfellows as an example that it would be wrong to assume the majority of Christians hold the same view as her.


  • #48
    Mmmm_Lemony
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 891 ✭✭✭Mmmm_Lemony


    HelterSkelter wrote:
    Grumpytrousers, That is true
    There is no specific, or explicit ban on images of Allah or the Prophet Muhammad - be they carved, painted or drawn.

    However, chapter 42, verse 11 of the Koran does say: "[Allah is] the originator of the heavens and the earth... [there is] nothing like a likeness of Him."

    This is taken by Muslims to mean that Allah cannot be captured in an image by human hand, such is his beauty and grandeur. To attempt such a thing is seen as an insult to Allah.

    The same is believed to apply to Muhammad.

    Chapter 21, verses 52-54 of the Koran read: "[Abraham] said to his father and his people: 'What are these images to whose worship you cleave?' They said: 'We found our fathers worshipping them.' He said: 'Certainly you have been, you and your fathers, in manifest error.'"

    From this arises the Muslim belief that images can give rise to idolatry - that is to say an image, rather than the divine being it symbolises, can become the object of worship and veneration.

    They really read between the lines, huh?


  • #49
    HelterSkelter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,585 ✭✭✭HelterSkelter


    RE*AC*TOR wrote:
    As far as I'm concerned all you religious people are nutters, but when you (they) start imposing their crazy beliefs on other peoples' rights/freedoms, then a line has been crossed that shouldn't be.

    Do you think it would be ok for me to draw a cartoon of somebody doing your mam up the arse and post it here? It is freedom of speech afterall.


  • #50
    toffeapple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 454 ✭✭toffeapple


    mcgarnicle wrote:
    My point was that there are alot of muslims who, in my oppinion, are nutters. They respond to threats to wipe out entire nations, they regularly go through streets waving around ak-47s etc. Im not saying they are all like this, but to compare the numbers of extremist muslims to the numbers of neo-nazis is pretty stupid. Moore is a fool and 1984 is just a piece of fiction and because you can see similarities today doesn't mean that we are living on air strip 1. My point about the journalists was that you seem to be giving out about people bunching muslims up into one big group while you then talk about "the media" as if it is some form of massive conspiracy to keep us all at war forever, just so they can have something to report, give me a break.

    Ok what led you to your informed opinion that a lot of muslims are nutters? wouldnt have been media coverage by any chance?
    i am refering of course to mainstream media like cnn and skynews. of course 1984 is fiction..stop making stupid inane comments with no revelvance to the argument...have you ever seen the nerumburg rallies or the march in lipzeig?
    I seen first hand a march in leipzieg in 1998..scary. They occur in Yugoslavia, Croatia ...they have BNP marchs in London for fu#k sake!

    And its not just the media bunching muslims together YOU did the same when you said "there must be a pretty large desire among normal muslims to wipe israel off the map"...how to you conclude this..you are making sweeping generalizations...

    Im no left wing new age love everyone type..that much is for certain..ya wouldnt catch me hanging around gazza strip saying "there so misunderstood...waaaaaaa" fu#k all that..I think just think most of this is hype and blown out of proportion


  • #51
    RE*AC*TOR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,475 ✭✭✭RE*AC*TOR


    HelterSkelter wrote:
    Do you think it would be ok for me to draw a cartoon of somebody doing your mam up the arse and post it here? It is freedom of speech afterall.
    go for it!


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  • #52
    mcgarnicle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 779 ✭✭✭mcgarnicle


    HelterSkelter wrote:
    My point is that just because a minority of Muslims are involved in violent demonstrations it is wrong to imply that all Muslims are like this. The majority will get angry about it, talk about it at the dinner table and in the mosque but that will be the end of it. I used the nutter complaining about Stringfellows as an example that it would be wrong to assume the majority of Christians hold the same view as her.

    and my point was that it a pretty large minority, far larger than the amount of neo-nazis and in some countries, ie iran, it is a majority. if they want to talk about it at dinner or whatever then fair enough. but when they start on that we should show respect for them by censoring our own newspapers etc, well then they can piss right off


  • #53
    HelterSkelter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,585 ✭✭✭HelterSkelter


    mcgarnicle wrote:
    and my point was that it a pretty large minority, far larger than the amount of neo-nazis and in some countries, ie iran, it is a majority. if they want to talk about it at dinner or whatever then fair enough. but when they start on that we should show respect for them by censoring our own newspapers etc, well then they can piss right off

    It's not about freedom press, it's about respect and consideration of things that might cause great offence to others. You wouldn't publish a photo of dead body in a car crash out of respect for the family of the dead person.


  • #54
    BaZmO*
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭BaZmO*


    HelterSkelter wrote:
    It's not about freedom press, it's about respect. You wouldn't publish a photo of dead body in a car crash out of respect for the family of the dead person.
    I think the Star/Sun newspaper would disagree with that, ask Joey Dunlop's family.


  • #55
    Megatron
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭Megatron


    lazydaisy wrote:
    It would seem so. Can someone remind me, did we such protests from the Muslim community after 911, Bali, London, and Madrid bombings?


    No we just bombed the hell out of 2 countries, well not we , but the US and the UK.

    personaly i can understand why they have been upset by this, but going nutz and attacking people who had NOTHING to do with it to show how angry they are is way OTT.

    It's no longer a matter of who was wrong now , it more a case of the media sitting back and rubbing it's hands to see how long this will go on.


    As someone said earlier about the the English goverment issueing a Apology ... I honestly think this goes back to the crusades ( i had a convesation with a m8 about this a few weeks back.)

    Example : lets say a Irish person was killed in a Muslim country ( you know what i mean) there of course would be an apoligy if it was done by mistake but it would be made to the Ambasidor or possible in a letter to Berti.

    Now on the other hand if a Muslim person from the same said country was killed in say England , the English goverment has/would issue a apoligy to the ENTIRE Muslim Faith.

    a bit strange that.


  • #56
    Mmmm_Lemony
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 891 ✭✭✭Mmmm_Lemony


    A danish newspaper prints a few comics of Allah.

    Two messers from North America make a film called Team America - World Police

    Nobody bats an eylid.


    Religion. Makes you think.

    *makes you think it's half the reason half the nations are at war with the other


  • #57
    mcgarnicle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 779 ✭✭✭mcgarnicle


    toffeapple wrote:
    Ok what led you to your informed opinion that a lot of muslims are nutters?

    I never said all muslims were nutters. are you saying that i was wrong to say some of them are?
    toffeapple wrote:
    wouldnt have been media coverage by any chance?
    i am refering of course to mainstream media like cnn and skynews.

    of course it was media coverage, how else would i know anything about anything. do you honestly believe that all the muslim riots and anti western outbirsts are staged by "the media"? if so id like to know where you get all your info from as clearly all the western media are full of crap in your oppinion.
    toffeapple wrote:
    of course 1984 is fiction..stop making stupid inane comments with no revelvance to the argument...


    it's based on your argument, which you clearly just took from that book and also from moore's oppinions as, from what i can see, there is no evidence in the real world to support it.
    toffeapple wrote:
    have you ever seen the nerumburg rallies or the march in lipzeig?
    I seen first hand a march in leipzieg in 1998..scary. They occur in Yugoslavia, Croatia ...they have BNP marchs in London for fu#k sake!

    compare the numbers and activities of neo-nazis to extremist muslims, neo-nazis are largely ignored by the press as there is little to report about them.
    toffeapple wrote:
    And its not just the media bunching muslims together YOU did the same when you said "there must be a pretty large desire among normal muslims to wipe israel off the map"...how to you conclude this..you are making sweeping generalizations...

    yes i did, you want to explain to me then why the leader of iran would try to gain public support for his government by espousing the annihilation of israel? i dont really see any answer except that most normal people in iran want israel to be annihilated. i am using iran as it is a very pertinent and very recent example.


  • #58
    toffeapple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 454 ✭✭toffeapple


    mcgarnicle wrote:
    and my point was that it a pretty large minority, far larger than the amount of neo-nazis and in some countries, ie iran, it is a majority. if they want to talk about it at dinner or whatever then fair enough. but when they start on that we should show respect for them by censoring our own newspapers etc, well then they can piss right off

    what a large minority? where are you getting your figures from...personally I couldn't give a fiddlers wa#k about muslims or anyone else for that matter..but your just brandish unsubstantiated rubbish and expecting it to validate your point......you could of said "i want to kill every muslim" and i wouldnt of cared less


  • #59
    ionapaul
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,375 ✭✭✭ionapaul


    Some Muslim groups based in the West at least recognise that their ME / SE Asian co-religionists' reactions to the cartoons are way over the top and harmful to the world view of Islam:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50819167&postcount=102


  • #60
    toffeapple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 454 ✭✭toffeapple


    "I never said all muslims were nutters. are you saying that i was wrong to say some of them are?"

    your an idiot your qouted me and then missed quoted me in the next sentence!!

    A LOT OF MUSLIMs and you where the one that said it i quoted you!!

    and again with IRAN thing again let me spell it out for you


    IRAN do not represent the muslims


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  • #61
    elurhs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 163 ✭✭elurhs


    Freedom of speech means that it is ok for someone to take a poke at religions, without putting their life at risk. It also means anyone has the right to protest PEACEFULLY against what they might consider blasphemy. I have no problem understanding that many normal Muslims would be offended by the cartoons. Don't forget the hoo-ha surrounding Tommy Tiernan and his infamous Cruxifiction sketch on the Late Late all of ten years ago. He said it, people complained, people were insulted, they had their say, but Tommy is still taking the piss out of the church today. This is freedom of speech. If you don't like it, don't listen, don't buy the paper, turn off the TV etc.

    However, being insulted doesn't give someone the right to threaten death on someone else, to attack their embassy, etc. Bear in mind, a number of governments have withdrawn their ambassadors to Denmark, states like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

    Finally, the one about Muhammed and the suicide bombers at the gates of Paradise - pretty funny.


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