Muslim cartoons...

Boggle

This may have been posted before but I was wondering if anyone had a link to these cartoons that are driving the muslim communities mad?

Personally I'm kind of confused as to why the Danish PM apologised for it... if it was a cartoon of the pope and Christians complained then no-one would give a sh1t but because it is Muslims they are falling all over themselves to accomodate them.

Is this the reward for terrorism??

dudara

The simple fact is that images of the Prophet are blaspehmous to the muslims.

It's rude of us to print something that offends them. Making fun of religion is not actually fun.

HelterSkelter

Already a discussion on it here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054884016

BaZmO*

dudara wrote:

The simple fact is that images of the Prophet are blaspehmous to the muslims.

It's rude of us to print something that offends them. Making fun of religion is not actually fun.

In your opinion.

The Life of Brian is an absolutely hilarious film.

RE*AC*TOR

BaZmO* wrote:

In your opinion.

The Life of Brian is an absolutely hilarious film.

Agreed. Religion is a great source of humour. Since its all inherently farcical.

toffeapple

Its rude for us to offend them????

who gives a sh!t...I say lets offend them even more

Tobias Greeshman

And if they were blasphemous images of the pope or jesus would they get the same amount of publicity that they're getting now? I doubt it.

The Danish PM may of apologised after Denmark was threatened by suicide bombers/terrorists due to the image about Mohammad.

RE*AC*TOR

by the way the cartoons can be seen here:

http://face-of-muhammed.blogspot.com/

dudara

The Life of Brian is very funny. Let me clarify what I meant.

To Muslims this is blasphemous, it extends beyond just being insulting. We should respect that.

Blisterman

Muslims are boycotting Danish goods. it's crazy. I'm not gonna boycott american goods because Gary Larson drew a cartoon of God at his computer.

BaZmO*

dudara wrote:

The Life of Brian is very funny. Let me clarify what I meant.

To Muslims this is blasphemous, it extends beyond just being insulting. We should respect that.

But the Life of Brian is blasphemous too.

Archeron

It seems odd that you can be offended by the fact that someone will associate your religion with terrorism, then you react by saying its offensive and if apologies arent made you'lll start blowing things up and shooting civilians. Hmmmm....

Tobias Greeshman

BaZmO* wrote:

But the Life of Brian is blasphemous too.

Blasphemous enough for the church to ban it when it came out all those years ago.

BaZmO*

silas wrote:

Blasphemous enough for the church to ban it when it came out all those years ago.

Yeah I know. But you didn't have the English Government issuing an apology.

Boggle

Cheers reactor - I see that they're a little to the point but I don not see a need for burning Danish flags. If they don't like it, then don't buy the paper again.

As for the fact that Europe tolerates this kind of crap from any section of society towards on of our countries reflects poorly on us. Why didn't the Danish PM come out and tell em to fcuk off? The only reason I can think of is that he's afraid of terror attacks.
Is the muslim faith so intrinsically linked with terrorism now that we are actually afraid of them?

faceman

Boggle wrote:

Why didn't the Danish PM come out and tell em to fcuk off? The only reason I can think of is that he's afraid of terror attacks.
Is the muslim faith so intrinsically linked with terrorism now that we are actually afraid of them?

Dont be daft - not all muslims live in the arab world, im sure there are plenty in denmark. Its nothing to do with terror attacks. its double standards if just because most christians cudnt give a toss if u draw a pic of the pope in bed with shirley valentine, doesnt mean u have the rite to diss others. Its called respect.

Granted whatever clown declared a "Day of Anger" in the muslim world, shud be hung by his ghoulies upside down over a pit of savage starving lions.

I dont care what religon u are, whichever God you believe in certainly wudnt approve of a "day of anger" or killing non believers.

grumpytrousers

I could've sworn that on the news last night they said that as far as muslims are concerned the mere portrayal of the prophet in ANY form is seen as being blasphemous. In other words, if - to be facetious - a newspaper ran a feature on 'how the prophet might look today' and put him in the kind of garb that you see ordinary folk in, that would still, by their terms, be inherently blasphemous. They then went on to say that even in mosques, etc, there are no pictures/icons/whatever of the prophet. Can anybody confirm this?

HelterSkelter

Archeron wrote:

It seems odd that you can be offended by the fact that someone will associate your religion with terrorism, then you react by saying its offensive and if apologies arent made you'lll start blowing things up and shooting civilians. Hmmmm....

Do you even know any Muslims? What are they doing about it? I know quite a lot of Muslims, they are annoyed about it but and none of them are threatening to blow things up.

I think this post from the Politics forum sums it up:

We have to get out of the habit of viewing the entire Muslim world as a single entity with a single opinion on everything.

Some Muslims might be mildly pissed off about this, some Muslims might want to run into the Danish embassy with TNT straped to their chest.

There are degrees to which people get annoyed. The media of course is only going to report the most extreme positions because those are the ones that make the news (the gun men surrounding the EU base for example).

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50817496&postcount=67

HelterSkelter

Grumpytrousers, That is true

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4674864.stm


Q&A: Depicting the Prophet Muhammad
Protests have spread across the Muslim world over the publication in Europe of cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad.

The BBC News website looks at why the depictions have caused such offence.

What does the Koran, the holy book of Islam, say on the issue?

There is no specific, or explicit ban on images of Allah or the Prophet Muhammad - be they carved, painted or drawn.

However, chapter 42, verse 11 of the Koran does say: "[Allah is] the originator of the heavens and the earth... [there is] nothing like a likeness of Him."

This is taken by Muslims to mean that Allah cannot be captured in an image by human hand, such is his beauty and grandeur. To attempt such a thing is seen as an insult to Allah.

The same is believed to apply to Muhammad.

Chapter 21, verses 52-54 of the Koran read: "[Abraham] said to his father and his people: 'What are these images to whose worship you cleave?' They said: 'We found our fathers worshipping them.' He said: 'Certainly you have been, you and your fathers, in manifest error.'"

From this arises the Muslim belief that images can give rise to idolatry - that is to say an image, rather than the divine being it symbolises, can become the object of worship and veneration.

What does Islamic tradition say on the matter?

Islamic tradition or Hadith, the stories of the words and actions of Muhammad and his Companions, explicitly prohibits images of Allah, Muhammad and all the major prophets of the Christian and Jewish traditions.

More widely, Islamic tradition has discouraged the figurative depiction of living creatures, especially human beings. Islamic art has therefore tended to be abstract or decorative.

Why is the insult so deeply felt by some Muslims?

Of course, there is the prohibition on images of Muhammad.

But one cartoon, showing the Prophet wearing a turban shaped as a bomb with a burning fuse, extends the caricature of Muslims as terrorists to Muhammad.

In this image, Muslims see a depiction of Islam, its prophet and Muslims in general as terrorists.

This will certainly play into a widespread perception among Muslims across the world that many in the West harbour a hostility towards - or fear of - Islam and Muslims.

BaZmO*

BaZmO* wrote:

But the Life of Brian is blasphemous too.

Did christians cause violent riots and blame the English government for letting Monthy Python create it??

Asiaprod

grumpytrousers wrote:

I could've sworn that on the news last night they said that as far as muslims are concerned the mere portrayal of the prophet in ANY form is seen as being blasphemous.

Only to other Muslims

Boggle

But one cartoon, showing the Prophet wearing a turban shaped as a bomb with a burning fuse, extends the caricature of Muslims as terrorists to Muhammad.

No, the actions of Muslims willing to blow themselves up in the name of their faith extends the caricature to mohammed. All the cartoon did was to express this opinion.

Dont be daft - not all muslims live in the arab world, im sure there are plenty in denmark. Its nothing to do with terror attacks. its double standards if just because most christians cudnt give a toss if u draw a pic of the pope in bed with shirley valentine, doesnt mean u have the rite to diss others. Its called respect.

Respect? If the muslims want respect for their religion then perhaps they should revolt about any suicide bombings taken up in their name. The cartoonist expressed his opinions on the current climate which is clearly allowed. You are entitled to dislike it but no more...

Wibbs

faceman wrote:

I dont care what religon u are, whichever God you believe in certainly wudnt approve of a "day of anger" or killing non believers.

You reckon? Maybe you should read some of the Islamic holy books. Killing non believers is all over the place. Instructions to kill Muslims who decide to reject the faith is in black and white too. Check out the old testament too. While it's not quite as bad, it's not that far off. People make too many happy clappy assumptions about a lot of religions and their issues.

As said before, the politics/news media/Islam fora are better places for this though.

Wibbs

Blisterman wrote:

Muslims are boycotting Danish goods. it's crazy. I'm not gonna boycott american goods because Gary Larson drew a cartoon of God at his computer.

Classic.:D

Hagar

HelterSkelter wrote:

In this image, Muslims see a depiction of Islam, its prophet and Muslims in general as terrorists.

It's beyond me how such an unfortunate mis-conception could ever have arisen...

dudara

Lots of moderate western muslims are offended by this, never mind the terrorist element. Don't focus in on one section exclusively.

As a previous poster said, it's all about respect.

All this fuss illustrates one point however. It shows how little we know in general about Muslim religion and law. As westeners, we need to learn a little more.

mcgarnicle

Isnt islam about 500 years younger than christianity? What was christianity like 500 years ago, plenty of killing of non believers as far as i know. Just pointing out that all religion is bolox, christians did plenty of bad things back then in the name of their religion and i bet that depictions slagging off the pope 500 years ago would not have gone down too well. As for images of mahomad being blasphemous, there were plenty of civil wars etc in europe which were driven by people pissed off at alot of depictions of jesus and other such idolatry

Wibbs

dudara wrote:

As a previous poster said, it's all about respect.

respect goes both ways and we see precious little flowing our way, for our way of life.

All this fuss illustrates one point however. It shows how little we know in general about Muslim religion and law. As westeners, we need to learn a little more.

True, Knowledge is power and all that. I find it equally interesting that we're the ones who need to learn a little more. That sentiment goes both ways too.

Wibbs

mcgarnicle wrote:

Isnt islam about 500 years younger than christianity? What was christianity like 500 years ago? Plenty of killing of non believer as far as i know

True, but not explicitly directed by the founder of same. There are historical/cultural/political differences too, between the faiths. We had a reformation for a start. That hasn't happened yet in Islam(some would say the prospect is unlikely due to structure).

PS I reckon the Lion would kick the tigers ass

Tusky

dudara wrote:

The simple fact is that images of the Prophet are blaspehmous to the muslims.

It's rude of us to print something that offends them. Making fun of religion is not actually fun.

Its rude ? so what. They need to learn to have a sence of humour. They are their beliefs, not ours.

lazydaisy

Wibbs wrote:

respect goes both ways and we see precious little flowing our way, for our way of life.

True, Knowledge is power and all that. I find it equally interesting that we're the ones who need to learn a little more. That sentiment goes both ways too.

It would seem so. Can someone remind me, did we such protests from the Muslim community after 911, Bali, London, and Madrid bombings?

Yet a cartoon can provoke such bahavior as this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4661572.stm

RE*AC*TOR

dudara wrote:

Lots of moderate western muslims are offended by this, never mind the terrorist element. Don't focus in on one section exclusively.

As a previous poster said, it's all about respect.

That's the point, exactly - the cartoons were respectful by western standards. They were perfectly within our boundaries regarding respect towards religion. They were published in a western country. No one was ramming this down Muslim throats.
If the other cartoons (that were falsely attributed to the danish paper) of Muhammed with a snout, or being sodomized by a dog, had been printed then I could understand this fuss. They send out a particular insulting message, whereas the actual cartoons all make sober, soci-religious observations.

Boggle

All this fuss illustrates one point however. It shows how little we know in general about Muslim religion and law. As westeners, we need to learn a little more.

Why should i need to learn about Muslims?If I wish to go to a Muslim country I respect their traditions, but when at home I'll observe my own culture and not be shackled by the beliefs of others... next you'll have post-offices pulling toy piglets from the shelves cos its offensive - oh wait, too late!!

Long and short, all religions are more than welcome at the table - as long as they do not force their own religion/intolerances onto the others.

themole

Boggle wrote:

Long and short, all religions are more than welcome at the table - as long as they do not force their own religion/intolerances onto the others.

i would agree with the above.

some one posted on the irishtimes breaking news the following comment
(in relation to the cartoon thing)
"Freedom of expression is a right that carries with it a duty not to offend."

just thought i would air my opinion on this.

i think the staments is rubbish.

you would need to define offence and i would not like to put such restrictions on freedom of speach.

toffeapple

I think its all been blown out of proportion..Its like after 911 when CNN showed pictures of Muslims "celebrating" on the streets..this was a farce..they just rounded up some loo laa's of the street and asked them to dance around burning American flags...The media need to create an "enemy" so they can keep us in fear and exploit us with sensationalism....if you talk to muslims the reality is there just normal people trying to get on with there life's raises kids etc just like any of us...same with any race or creed....

if a minority of extremists take to the streets so what? they still have neo Nazi rallies all over Europe....how much coverage does this receive??
fu#k all...as i said they need to create an enemy..its all boll0x.

mcgarnicle

toffeapple wrote:

I think its all been blown out of proportion..Its like after 911 when CNN showed pictures of Muslims "celebrating" on the streets..this was a farce..they just rounded up some loo laa's of the street and asked them to dance around burning American flags...The media need to create an "enemy" so they can keep us in fear and exploit us with sensationalism....if you talk to muslims the reality is there just normal people trying to get on with there life's raises kids etc just like any of us...same with any race or creed....

if a minority of extremists take to the streets so what? they still have neo Nazi rallies all over Europe....how much coverage does this receive??
fu#k all...as i said they need to create an enemy..its all boll0x.

You must be joking, i think youre reading too much 1984/ michael moore. Why did the iranian guy say he would wipe israel off the map? we know he wont do it, it was just to appeal domestically, so obviously if he is doing that there must be a pretty large desire among normal muslims to wipe israel off the map. I think you need to lay off the media, they are just reporting what they see, if you talk to journalists the reality is they're just normal people trying to get on with their lives, raise kids etc..... just like any of us.......... same as any job or profession........

toffeapple

Iran is different senario...Its Iran not Muslims...thats like equating Christians with Americans..we were talking muslims not Iranians...And 1984 is one of my favorites books and IMO a master piece..moore although to biased to present a balanced argument does make some points that are hard to disbute.....I wasnt refering to journalists per se so don't put words in my mouth....ask your "journalist" friends...fear sells.
Before you start im not anti war either

BaZmO*

ronoc wrote:

Did christians cause violent riots and blame the English government for letting Monthy Python create it??

Did you read the rest of my posts, or just the one that you quoted?

HelterSkelter

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

That's the point, exactly - the cartoons were respectful by western standards. They were perfectly within our boundaries regarding respect towards religion. They were published in a western country. No one was ramming this down Muslim throats.

Yeah but there are pleanty of Muslims living in western countries who live like us, dress like us, work in the same jobs as us, watch the same tv programs as us. There are Irish Muslims, British Muslims, French Muslims, etc who have been living here for generations. They ARE western. And they ARE offended by the cartoon.

My reading of the cartoon is it was suggesting that all Muslims support suicide bombers. The reality is totally different. Yet in countries like Ireland where most people don't have much contact with Muslims and don't know much about the religion it renforces the incorrect opinion. That is why I think it is wrong to publish something like that. It is adding to a prejudice against Muslims.

I wonder would people be defending the cartoon if it was taking the piss out of black people? The paper would be condemed by everyone as being racist.

mcgarnicle

toffeapple wrote:

Iran is different senario...Its Iran not Muslims...thats like equating Christians with Americans..we were talking muslims not Iranians...And 1984 is one of my favorites books and IMO a master piece..moore although to biased to present a balanced argument does make some points that are hard to disbute.....I wasnt refering to journalists per se so don't put words in my mouth....ask your "journalist" friends...fear sells.
Before you start im not anti war either

My point was that there are alot of muslims who, in my oppinion, are nutters. They respond to threats to wipe out entire nations, they regularly go through streets waving around ak-47s etc. Im not saying they are all like this, but to compare the numbers of extremist muslims to the numbers of neo-nazis is pretty stupid. Moore is a fool and 1984 is just a piece of fiction and because you can see similarities today doesn't mean that we are living on air strip 1. My point about the journalists was that you seem to be giving out about people bunching muslims up into one big group while you then talk about "the media" as if it is some form of massive conspiracy to keep us all at war forever, just so they can have something to report, give me a break.

HelterSkelter

mcgarnicle wrote:

My point was that there are alot of muslims who, in my oppinion, are nutters.

I heard a Christian nutter on the news complaining about the opening of Stringfellows in Dublin. A lot of Christians are nutters. :rolleyes:

RE*AC*TOR

HelterSkelter wrote:

I wonder would people be defending the cartoon if it was taking the piss out of black people? The paper would be condemed by everyone as being racist.

The cartoons didn't take the piss out of anything in fairness, they were quite sober.

dudara

HelterSkelter wrote:

Yeah but there are pleanty of Muslims living in western countries who live like us, dress like us, work in the same jobs as us, watch the same tv programs as us. There are Irish Muslims, British Muslims, French Muslims, etc who have been living here for generations. They ARE western. And they ARE offended by the cartoon.

This is what I said earlier, but it's said better here. There are western muslims, who believe in free speech and so on. But these cartoons still insult them. People here are focussing too exclusively on the reactions of the militant muslims, who I think we can all agree, are not worth our consideration.

mcgarnicle

HelterSkelter wrote:

I heard a Christian nutter on the news complaining about the opening of Stringfellows in Dublin. A lot of Christians are nutters. :rolleyes:

Oh ok, i am wrong, its ok for muslims to blow up israel and all the rest because some old biddy doesnt want a strip club down her road. I think you need to get some perspective, also, id imagine there would be a fatwah on stringfellow pretty quickly if he tried to open a strip club in baghdad.

RE*AC*TOR

HelterSkelter wrote:

I heard a Christian nutter on the news complaining about the opening of Stringfellows in Dublin. A lot of Christians are nutters. :rolleyes:

As far as I'm concerned all you religious people are nutters, but when you (they) start imposing their crazy beliefs on other peoples' rights/freedoms, then a line has been crossed that shouldn't be.

Mmmm_Lemony

faceman wrote:

Dont be daft - not all muslims live in the arab world, im sure there are plenty in denmark. Its nothing to do with terror attacks. its double standards if just because most christians cudnt give a toss if u draw a pic of the pope in bed with shirley valentine, doesnt mean u have the rite to diss others. Its called respect.

Granted whatever clown declared a "Day of Anger" in the muslim world, shud be hung by his ghoulies upside down over a pit of savage starving lions.

I dont care what religon u are, whichever God you believe in certainly wudnt approve of a "day of anger" or killing non believers.

Where could I get one of these pictures?

HelterSkelter

mcgarnicle wrote:

Oh ok, i am wrong, its ok for muslims to blow up israel and all the rest because some old biddy doesnt want a strip club down her road. I think you need to get some perspective, also, id imagine there would be a fatwah on stringfellow pretty quickly if he tried to open a strip club in baghdad.

My point is that just because a minority of Muslims are involved in violent demonstrations it is wrong to imply that all Muslims are like this. The majority will get angry about it, talk about it at the dinner table and in the mosque but that will be the end of it. I used the nutter complaining about Stringfellows as an example that it would be wrong to assume the majority of Christians hold the same view as her.

Mmmm_Lemony

HelterSkelter wrote:

Grumpytrousers, That is true
There is no specific, or explicit ban on images of Allah or the Prophet Muhammad - be they carved, painted or drawn.

However, chapter 42, verse 11 of the Koran does say: "[Allah is] the originator of the heavens and the earth... [there is] nothing like a likeness of Him."

This is taken by Muslims to mean that Allah cannot be captured in an image by human hand, such is his beauty and grandeur. To attempt such a thing is seen as an insult to Allah.

The same is believed to apply to Muhammad.

Chapter 21, verses 52-54 of the Koran read: "[Abraham] said to his father and his people: 'What are these images to whose worship you cleave?' They said: 'We found our fathers worshipping them.' He said: 'Certainly you have been, you and your fathers, in manifest error.'"

From this arises the Muslim belief that images can give rise to idolatry - that is to say an image, rather than the divine being it symbolises, can become the object of worship and veneration.

They really read between the lines, huh?

HelterSkelter

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

As far as I'm concerned all you religious people are nutters, but when you (they) start imposing their crazy beliefs on other peoples' rights/freedoms, then a line has been crossed that shouldn't be.

Do you think it would be ok for me to draw a cartoon of somebody doing your mam up the arse and post it here? It is freedom of speech afterall.

toffeapple

mcgarnicle wrote:

My point was that there are alot of muslims who, in my oppinion, are nutters. They respond to threats to wipe out entire nations, they regularly go through streets waving around ak-47s etc. Im not saying they are all like this, but to compare the numbers of extremist muslims to the numbers of neo-nazis is pretty stupid. Moore is a fool and 1984 is just a piece of fiction and because you can see similarities today doesn't mean that we are living on air strip 1. My point about the journalists was that you seem to be giving out about people bunching muslims up into one big group while you then talk about "the media" as if it is some form of massive conspiracy to keep us all at war forever, just so they can have something to report, give me a break.

Ok what led you to your informed opinion that a lot of muslims are nutters? wouldnt have been media coverage by any chance?
i am refering of course to mainstream media like cnn and skynews. of course 1984 is fiction..stop making stupid inane comments with no revelvance to the argument...have you ever seen the nerumburg rallies or the march in lipzeig?
I seen first hand a march in leipzieg in 1998..scary. They occur in Yugoslavia, Croatia ...they have BNP marchs in London for fu#k sake!

And its not just the media bunching muslims together YOU did the same when you said "there must be a pretty large desire among normal muslims to wipe israel off the map"...how to you conclude this..you are making sweeping generalizations...

Im no left wing new age love everyone type..that much is for certain..ya wouldnt catch me hanging around gazza strip saying "there so misunderstood...waaaaaaa" fu#k all that..I think just think most of this is hype and blown out of proportion

RE*AC*TOR

HelterSkelter wrote:

Do you think it would be ok for me to draw a cartoon of somebody doing your mam up the arse and post it here? It is freedom of speech afterall.

go for it!