ITV 3 &4 removed from ROI EPG

Mossy Monk · 26-01-2006 12:26AM

irishgeo wrote:

think there is a law which states that the home channels get these slots on the EPG

but the BCI have no say over the Sky EPG

Charles Slane · 26-01-2006 12:41AM

irishgeo wrote:

think there is a law which states that the home channels get these slots on the EPG. just wondering where the new channel 6 is going to ppear in the irish epg?

That only applies in the UK - the five terrestrials have to be in the first five places on the EPG (I think that applies to cable as well).

The reason that RTE, TV3 and TG4 are where they are on the EPG is all part of the complex arrangement between them and Sky. Sky pay for their satellite carriage because they know that having them on Sky makes the package more attractive to Irish viewers.

As for Channel 6, they will have no automatic right to get the 105 placing. At present they haven't even reached any agreement for satellite carriage and Sky EPG placement. I'm guessing that if they want 105 they'll have to pay for it.

Sparky · 26-01-2006 12:44AM

andrew3 wrote:

BCI have nothing whatsoever to do with this - they have no control over sky's broadcasts into Ireland -(they even mention it on their websites)

Rte practically gifted themselves to sky because they needed to be on the platform due to waining from advertisers - notice that from December 1998 the first 5 years of sky digital they weren't on it yet they still operated in Ireland.

when the contract for supply ends anybody wanting epg positions 101,-105 could bid whatever they like for the positions

And for an age they had on teletext telling people that RTE is NOT available on sky, NOR DOES NOT PLAN ON BEING, rte is aware that certain retailers are saying that rte is freely available on Sky digital.

3 months later they join with tv3.

L1011 · 26-01-2006 12:57AM

andrew3 wrote:

BCI have nothing whatsoever to do with this - they have no control over sky's broadcasts into Ireland -(they even mention it on their websites)

Not entirely true. The BCI licences Sky and a number of other broadcasters on their platform for PPV services. Comreg licences Sky to provide pay-TV services. Comreg also, obviously, "owns" the Ku-band here, and has actually already allocated much of it to terrestrial digital television, I believe for regional services.

There is an implied agreement that 1-4 get 101-104, should they want them. The other side of the implied agreement being that Sky could find themselves in an extremely dodgy situation if the BCI and Comreg decided to make it so.

BrianD · 26-01-2006 01:41AM

Incorrect. Neither ComReg (frequency use) nor the BCi (content) have licenced Sky for anything. All of it is unregulated here and operates using ITC (UK) licences. In fact, Sky Digital have actually complained about DTT frequency allocations that ComReg have proposed. The only thing that I am not sure about is Sky News Ireland, though technically this would be either an uplink or fibre out of Ireland to the UK. Even the advertising on the Irish opt out channels is not regulated in theis country.

Furthermore, there is no law or rules about the EPG allocations. Many people programme their TV sets starting with the terrestrials first. Sky are just mimicing this. I'm sure that, in the past, BBC and ITV used their clout to ensure that they stayed 'up top' and I'm sure RTE negotiated this as well. Sky can put any channel where it wants.

The BCI have licenced the likes of Setanta Sport for full time channels and PPV services.

Ronan|Raven · 26-01-2006 01:42AM

watty wrote:

I can confirm my FTA box still does all ITV channels now and next

I can also confirm that my PC Digiguide still does all the ITV channels.

My PC Satellite card still records all the FTA channels including all BBC/ITV without help of anything other than Dish and LNB.

I can ALSO confiirm that Sky+ is a rip off:
1) You have to pay a rental or it doesn't record
2) It will NOT record anything Sky doesn't want it to.

Satellite is NOT cable. The problem is Sky closed architecture and the Digibox design, not ITV.

Well said.

L1011 · 26-01-2006 01:47AM

BrianD wrote:

Incorrect. Neither ComReg (frequency use) nor the BCi (content) have licenced Sky for anything. All of it is unregulated here and operates using ITC (UK) licences. In fact, Sky Digital have actually complained about DTT frequency allocations that ComReg have proposed. The only thing that I am not sure about is Sky News Ireland, though technically this would be either an uplink or fibre out of Ireland to the UK. Even the advertising on the Irish opt out channels is not regulated in theis country.

Furthermore, there is no law or rules about the EPG allocations. Many people programme their TV sets starting with the terrestrials first. Sky are just mimicing this. I'm sure that, in the past, BBC and ITV used their clout to ensure that they stayed 'up top' and I'm sure RTE negotiated this as well. Sky can put any channel where it wants.

The BCI have licenced the likes of Setanta Sport for full time channels and PPV services.

The BBC and ITV have not had to "use their clout", as 101-105 are legally protected by Ofcom. There are laws and rules, just not here. However, there is a basic "gentlemans agreement" on it.

Prior to their site being nuked, you could find the BCIs PPV contracts for Premiership Plus, etc on their site, which specifically mentioned them being licenced for satellite transmission. The BCI do control this aspect. However, they've managed to delete about 3/4 of their content recently...

Additionally, Sky's PayTV licencing details were on the ODTR site and not carried forward to Comreg's site. But once again, they have a licence issued for this. The service is not regulated. Their ability to charge money for it is. Which do you think is more important to them?

okcomputer · 26-01-2006 02:11AM

anyone got an email address for TV3 so i can complain? i already sent this to ITV (duty office)

I am really f#cking angry you removed ITV 3 and 4 from the Irish SKY EPG

you lot can f#ck right off

I have sky+ and the “other channels” are no use to me

You are a shower of w#nkers

hawthorn · 26-01-2006 03:53AM

Yes Id say that should do the trick, ITV will be back tomorrow....:D

dahamsta · 26-01-2006 09:30AM

BrianD wrote:

You really should check up on a few facts before writing!

BrianD wrote:

ITV have en massedeparted the Sky Digital platform in favour of FTA D-Sat.

Charles Slane wrote:

No they haven't. The ITV channels are still on the UK Sky EPG. The removal of ITV3 and 4 has only happened on the Irish EPG.

BrianD wrote:

I don't have Sky Dig so I can only take your word on that

Someone posted some sage advice earlier Brian, you might want to heed it. The relevant chap doesn't seem the brightest, and doesn't seem capable of distinguishing fact from opinion, but still. Lemme see now, where is it? Ooh look, it's already at the top of this post, and his name's Brian too!

Muppet.

adam

Hagar · 26-01-2006 09:32AM

okcomputer wrote:

anyone got an email address for TV3 so i can complain? i already sent this to ITV (duty office)

I am really f#cking angry you removed ITV 3 and 4 from the Irish SKY EPG

you lot can f#ck right off

I have sky+ and the “other channels” are no use to me

You are a shower of w#nkers

I can see a future for you in the Diplomatic Corps.

Nordic · 26-01-2006 09:40AM

You're not telling me you guys actually pay Sky for your TV. Most of the channels you're paying for are free to air if you just looked and bought a proper sat receiver and did a simple search. When you search you'll find your money still in your account!!! Wakey wakey!!!

maisflocke · 26-01-2006 10:02AM

BrianD wrote:

You really should check up on a few facts before writing! .

BrianD wrote:

I don't believe either that EU requires a satellite receiver to be able to receive FTA channels.

Can you explain then Brian why the Premiere Nokia D-box 1 was scrutinised by the European Commision and the manufacturer ordered to delete the programme blocking software which was on their receivers?

watty · 26-01-2006 10:07AM

The reason people have Sky is for:
The UK TV group package/channels, The Discovery group /pacakage, Nat Geo, Paramount, Living, Sky1..3, TCM, Disney, Setanta and Sky Sports block are not available free to air anywhere.

Arguably it is better value to buy the DVDs you want than Sky Movies or Sky Box Office which are not FTA anywhere.

These channels are encrypted on Sky, but few people actually get Sky for them. They or similar listed are FTA on other satellites:
Bloomberg, German Eurosport, CNBC, DW-TV, TV5 Europe, Non-English versions of MTV.

RTE, TV3 and TG4 are only FTA on terrestrial Analog. If you want Widescreen RTE the only choice is PayTV.

Sky do have a provider monopoly on certain channels that people want. (NTL/Chorus is not effective competion outside of major cabled areas)

If Mr/Ms Nordic or anyone else promotes stealling PayTV they get banned. It's against forum rules.

BrianD · 26-01-2006 12:49PM

Ken Shabby wrote:

Someone posted some sage advice earlier Brian, you might want to heed it. The relevant chap doesn't seem the brightest, and doesn't seem capable of distinguishing fact from opinion, but still. Lemme see now, where is it? Ooh look, it's already at the top of this post, and his name's Brian too!

Muppet.

adam

What on earth are you on about???

BrianD · 26-01-2006 01:29PM

MYOB wrote:

The BBC and ITV have not had to "use their clout", as 101-105 are legally protected by Ofcom. There are laws and rules, just not here. However, there is a basic "gentlemans agreement" on it.

I stand corrected, apparently there are laws in the UK of some sort and OFCOM have regulations. However, 101-105 are subject to a gentlemans agreement which I would say was influenced by the clout of the terrestrials. Here;s what OFCOM say

Second, we are publishing a draft code that will tell all EPG providers what they must do in order to comply with the law. Parliament has decided that all public service channels (the BBC's public services, ITV 1, Channel 4, Five and S4C) should be given 'appropriate prominence' on EPGs. It is up to Ofcom to decide what this means. We think that there are different ways in which this could be done. For example, one EPG might choose to show channels in list form, and place public service channels at or near the top of the list. Other EPGs might choose to display channels in 'tile' form, in which case public service channels might appear in the centre. For these reasons, Ofcom believes that it is sensible for EPG providers to make their own judgements, and for Ofcom to intervene only if there are complaints, or if it is not happy with the way public service channels are displayed. The draft code says that, in these cases, Ofcom would expect the EPG provider to have rules that explained properly how public service channels were treated in comparison to other channels. It would also consider whether public service channels were displayed in the way viewers would expect. Finally, EPG providers would have to ensure that viewers could get access the public service channel appropriate for their region (e.g. BBC 1 Scotland in Scotland) by going to the main listing for the channel in the EPG.

Prior to their site being nuked, you could find the BCIs PPV contracts for Premiership Plus, etc on their site, which specifically mentioned them being licenced for satellite transmission. The BCI do control this aspect. However, they've managed to delete about 3/4 of their content recently...

I have never noticed this on the BCI web site prior to it's redesign and it's deletion of past press releases. I have every release issued by the BCI for the past few years so I'll refresh my memory. The BCI have only started issuing Digital Content licences in the past couple of years. Sky Sports/PPV would still have an ITC and I can't see why they would bother with one here (unless it was for cable/mmds reasons). Perhaps they have applied and hold them but are they using them? PPV is no different to any other subscription channel except it's obviously for a shorter duration.

Additionally, Sky's PayTV licencing details were on the ODTR site and not carried forward to Comreg's site. But once again, they have a licence issued for this. The service is not regulated. Their ability to charge money for it is. Which do you think is more important to them?

The money of course! The ODTR/ComReg manage frequency spectrum not content.

maisflocke wrote:

Can you explain then Brian why the Premiere Nokia D-box 1 was scrutinised by the European Commision and the manufacturer ordered to delete the programme blocking software which was on their receivers?

I have no knowledge of this case but why was this receiver being scrutinised? I would suggest that there were a number of reasons why it was being examined perhaps because it's design was anti-competitive?

Any problems with the above? Please contact the Duty Office of TV3 or your local radio station.

maisflocke · 26-01-2006 01:55PM

BrianD wrote:

I have no knowledge of this case but why was this receiver being scrutinised? I would suggest that there were a number of reasons why it was being examined perhaps because it's design was anti-competitive?

There was one sole reason as to why this box was up for examination.
It was Anti-competitive because those who bought it were conned into buying a receiver that only received what DF1/ Premiere wanted its viewers to watch. i.e. Its own little digital platform. All other frequencies were intentionally blocked.

This was a violation to EU rules, the rules which you don't want to believe exist

BrianD wrote:

I don't believe either that EU requires a satellite receiver to be able to receive FTA channels

BrianD wrote:

You really should check up on a few facts before writing! .

Pal · 26-01-2006 02:28PM

okcomputer wrote:

anyone got an email address for TV3 so i can complain? i already sent this to ITV (duty office)

I am really f#cking angry you removed ITV 3 and 4 from the Irish SKY EPG

you lot can f#ck right off

I have sky+ and the “other channels” are no use to me

You are a shower of w#nkers

why you all pay SKY for things you don't want is beyond me.

L1011 · 26-01-2006 03:05PM

BrianD wrote:

The money of course! The ODTR/ComReg manage frequency spectrum not content

And they also control your ability to offer PayTV services. And as you said, the money is more important to Sky than anything else; and if Comreg revoke their ability to charge money for it - well, they're gone. And its off this basis of 'no regulation but still control' that state agencies still have some control over Sky's activities in Ireland. Not enough to make them pay VAT here, it seems, but enough to ensure that any verbal 'gentlemans agreements', such as ensuring that RTÉ get 101/2 rather than any other numbers, are kept.

Once again, as with FTA access on satellite receivers, you don't want to believe something which exists. The same way you a while ago refused to believe ITV was FTA till you saw it yourself, and refused to believe that ITV2/3/4 were still on the EPG in the UK earlier in this very thread.

To borrow an analogy from the religion I'm not in but was taught in school - Doubting Thomas, anyone?

BrianD · 26-01-2006 05:06PM

maisflocke wrote:

There was one sole reason as to why this box was up for examination.
It was Anti-competitive because those who bought it were conned into buying a receiver that only received what DF1/ Premiere wanted its viewers to watch. i.e. Its own little digital platform. All other frequencies were intentionally blocked.

This was a violation to EU rules, the rules which you don't want to believe exist

Never said that there was no rule or laws. I merely pointed out that from my last read of the TV without frontiers the approach was that governments should not block overspill from other countries by legislation or by physically blocking it. Private companies can decide if they want to make a station available on their platform or not. Clearly this is not relevant to the debate here as ITv3/4 can be tuned in manually but you lose the convenience of the EPG/Sky + facility that was part of the offering that the customer purchased.

But which legislation? EU may have investigated this item under standard competition rulings as opposed to the Television with out frontiers agenda. Also I understand from browsing the net that this scrutiny came as a result from a complaint from Germany where nearly everything is FTA. Don't know much about the German market but I know they tend not to pay much for their telly. It also depends what the market position of the above platform is in Germany is. Are the abusing their position etc etc. If Sky locked up their boxes here there would probably be a similar complaint given their dominace of the satellite market.

I never said ITV3/4 were not FTA and whether ITV1/2/34 are on the EPG in the UK is irrelevant!! We're in a different market!

Let me re-iterate. Sky Digital is not regulated in this country. ComReg do not regulate it and the BCI do not regulate it. They can charge what they like as a basic sub, for premium channels or for PPV. ComReg/BCI have absolutely no say what so ever. It is a UK platform. They only (semi) state agency that ensured that RTE got the 101-12 positions is RTE themselves. Now perhaps comReg/BCi have some white papers buried away on the subject but they are largely irrelevant till either sky uproots and relocated in Ireland or somebody sets up Speir Digital here. Furthermore, they do not control your ability to offer pay TV, free TV or any other form of TV unless you are seeking a frequency for a service originating in this country.

Oh, the Irish law on EPG services originating in Ireland. It has a vague clause to stop providers deliberately preventing access to other channels that are licenced here.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA4Y2001S16.html

26-01-2006 05:17PM

BrianD wrote:

Clearly this is not relevant to the debate here as ITv3/4 can be tuned in manually but you lose the convenience of the EPG/Sky + facility that was part of the offering that the customer purchased.

And ergo the reason they were removed has nothing to do with programme copyright though as the channels are FTA.The EPG just facilitates a nice way of viewing them with added bells and whistles.

I'd imagine 1 of 2 things happened or probably both
ITV's EPG bill was itemised this time and some clever buck saw that the ROI charge being removed would get him some kudos for savings.
The same individual probably suggested charging Sky for copyrighted ITV listings...

Nothing we can do about either except perhaps asking for a price reduction.
That wont happen as theres no bargaining that can be done.

Imagine going door to door to the 350,000 sky ROI subscribers and saying I want you to dtop paying untill we get ITV 3&4 back on the EPG...

byte · 26-01-2006 09:32PM

Earthman wrote:

Imagine going door to door to the 350,000 sky ROI subscribers and saying I want you to dtop paying untill we get ITV 3&4 back on the EPG...

And of course, when they stop paying and remove the card (or upside down while in SNA), eventually the box will revert to UK listigns, and show ITV1, 2, etc on EPG!

Our man in Havana · 26-01-2006 10:02PM

What are the cancellation monkeys offering if you attempt to cancel?

watty · 26-01-2006 10:18PM

pot luck and depending how pathetic you sound...

L1011 · 26-01-2006 10:35PM

half price for three months usually, however I made the mistake of sounding too determined, got put through to a supervisor, and I haven't had Sky since the 21st of this month

Sparky · 26-01-2006 11:05PM

MYOB wrote:

half price for three months usually, however I made the mistake of sounding too determined, got put through to a supervisor, and I haven't had Sky since the 21st of this month

Me aswell, but i got filmfour out of it and subscription free till the end of the month, when i rang up before christmas about the plus box, which has given up on me.

Widescreen · 27-01-2006 10:01AM

watty wrote:

I can confirm my FTA box still does all ITV channels now and next

I can also confirm that my PC Digiguide still does all the ITV channels.

My PC Satellite card still records all the FTA channels including all BBC/ITV without help of anything other than Dish and LNB.

I can ALSO confiirm that Sky+ is a rip off:
1) You have to pay a rental or it doesn't record
2) It will NOT record anything Sky doesn't want it to.

I can also confirm that ALL the BBC and ALL the ITV channel viewing and EPG and full guide is only a flip away on an ROI sub box. (Just tested)

* Go to Sky News
* Press RED
* Wait for interactive to load
* flip card and put it fully in upside down (or ANY card with no chip downward)
* Press backup
* Wait ....
* When picture is back press Guide. It will have UK Guide and all UK listings and FTA channels work... EXCEPT no recording on the Rip OFF Sky+

If ITV don't want or can't to pay the extra for being on Irish EPG why should they?

Why should Sky pay for then either.

Satellite is NOT cable. The problem is Sky closed architecture and the Digibox design, not ITV.

Actually Watty- you don't need any other card to do this. Basically do as you say and when Active loads just slip out the sky card and press back up. All channels as you indicate then load up. BBC1 London, BBC2 London, ITV Central W etc....May come in handy some time!

watty · 27-01-2006 10:07AM

Widescreen wrote:

Actually Watty- you don't need any other card to do this. Basically do as you say and when Active loads just slip out the sky card and press back up. All channels as you indicate then load up. BBC1 London, BBC2 London, ITV Central W etc....May come in handy some time!

Yes I noticed that. However it did or sometimes need a card. Any card will do to activate the switch at the back of the slot.

Benster · 27-01-2006 01:15PM

If I do this flip-card thing, will I get a nasty letter from Sky? I'm still within the 1st year contract and usually have the phoneline connected, so I assume a big red flashing arrow will appear over my house on their GlobalDominion map and troops will be dispatched.

B.

maisflocke · 27-01-2006 07:07PM

BrianD wrote:

Never said that there was no rule or laws. I merely pointed out that from my last read of the TV without frontiers the approach was that governments should not block overspill from other countries by legislation or by physically blocking it. Private companies can decide if they want to make a station available on their platform or not. Clearly this is not relevant to the debate here as ITv3/4 can be tuned in manually but you lose the convenience of the EPG/Sky + facility that was part of the offering that the customer purchased.

Eh Brian, I think you are barking up the wrong tree. I pointed out that the other channel facility is perfectly within EU rules. I pointed this out because you said "I don't believe either that EU requires a satellite receiver to be able to receive FTA channels". DUH.

BrianD wrote:

I never said ITV3/4 were not FTA and whether ITV1/2/34 are on the EPG in the UK is irrelevant!! We're in a different market!

I never said you did. For gods sake Brian, read the posts carefully and if you want to reply to them - make sure you direct your reply to the right people. :mad:

ITV 3 &4 removed from ROI EPG

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