Very interesting rumour RE: immigrants

Delboy05 · 04-01-2006 11:43AM

Hobbes wrote:

You couldn't possibly save me some time and direct link to the figures in question? Cheers.

Those are figures I have kept note of from various reports in the Indo and Irish Times from the last few years. Check them out yourself. U'll find they are accurate e.g. the housing waiting list figure comes from the Dept of the Environment.

Hobbes wrote:

Btw your irish child estimation is bunk as well. Was discussed in depth during the referendum and the ruling of staying in Ireland on having an Irish child was overturned well before people voted on it.

How is it bunk. 10,000 people were given leave to remain here before the referendum and the law was changed. Since then, and this was mentioned by MvDowell just before xmas, 18,000 further people who have had children here have been given leave to remain in a ridiculous amnesty.

Hobbes wrote:

And how do you get 80% from a 6% figure?

Very simple if u really read what I said. Only 6% of asylum seekers on average are succesful in their initial application. A further 15% win their appeals. But because so many asylum seekers have been allowed remain because of the irish-born baby scenarion, well over 80% of all original asylum seekers have been allowed remain on in ireland.

Hobbes wrote:

AFAIR our having to take on Asylum seekers is an EU directive.

The Dublin Convention also originates from the EU and is 1 of the most recent on the subject of asylum. It states that all asylum seekers to the EU must apply for asylum in the first country they arrive in....ever been to Dublin airport? ever seen direct flights from lagos?

stevejazzx · 04-01-2006 11:53AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia

There is an older generation of Irsih people who are pushing the agenda of racial hatred in this country.
Thankfully a higher percentage of the current generation of Irish peole prefer to have more informed and logical stance when dealing with these complex worldly issues.
All this talk etc of free cars and prams only exposes the fear and ignorance of people.
There is balance of government welfare between the peoples of this state which may be bureaucratic but certainly not more benificial for foreigners as Illustrated by hoobes here
http://www.amnesty.ie/content/view/full/764/
The world is beautiful place because we are a diverse multicultural people.

Hobbes · 04-01-2006 11:59AM

Delboy05 wrote:

Those are figures I have kept note of from various reports in the Indo and Irish Times from the last few years.

Thats good. When you read those stories did you then go look up the figures to see if they were correct or not? You really should. I don't have the time now but I will go rummaging if you can't.

I'll give you a story why you should research what you read before taking it as gospel. On the politics forum one member claimed that Chavez was making the country worse and quoted figures and the report. When asked for the direct link they refused to give it and told us to "Go find them yourself". Similar to what you have done here.

So people went looking and it appeared while the figures were correct the implication was totally wrong and it was just a snapshot taken to make it look like it was getting worse when it was the reverse. Turned out all he did was cut and paste from an anti-chavez site news story. Never bothered to check up the facts.

Check them out yourself. U'll find they are accurate e.g. the housing waiting list figure comes from the Dept of the Environment.

If you have never looked for the actual figures how can you make that assertion. I'll go look anyway.

How is it bunk.

Go to the biki, look up threads of fame and then look at the referendum thread. Its huge but goes into detail why the "Get an Irish Baby and you get to stay here" is BS and has been for some time. There was a court case afair 1-2 years before the referendum that meant that having a kid here didn't automatically give you free rights to stay here.

Very simple if u really read what I said. Only 6% of asylum seekers on average are succesful in their initial application. A further 15% win their appeals. But because so many asylum seekers have been allowed remain because of the irish-born baby scenarion, well over 80% of all original asylum seekers have been allowed remain on in ireland.

15% + 6% = 80%

Sorry just doesn't add up. Do you have an exact figure of how many won thier case based on a child? (you will probably find it in the referendum thread).

The Dublin Convention also originates from the EU and is 1 of the most recent on the subject of asylum. It states that all asylum seekers to the EU must apply for asylum in the first country they arrive in....ever been to Dublin airport? ever seen direct flights from lagos?

Read up on it again. Yes they have to register at the first country but it also states that each member country must take on a certain amount of Asylum seekers even if they are not the first country they entered in on. Actually Ireland has the lowest (or near lowest) number of asylum seekers in Europe.

stevejazzx · 04-01-2006 12:04PM

stevejazzx wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia

There is an older generation of Irsih people who are pushing the agenda of racial hatred in this country.
Thankfully a higher percentage of the current generation of Irish peole prefer to have more informed and logical stance when dealing with these complex worldly issues.
All this talk etc of free cars and prams only exposes the fear and ignorance of people.
There is balance of government welfare between the peoples of this state which may be bureaucratic but certainly not more benificial for foreigners as Illustrated by hoobes here
http://www.amnesty.ie/content/view/full/764/
The world is beautiful place because we are a diverse multicultural people.

just in case you were wondering i left out the word not after the word certainly first time around, i have edited now

MorningStar · 04-01-2006 12:10PM

Delboy05 wrote:

The Dublin Convention also originates from the EU and is 1 of the most recent on the subject of asylum. It states that all asylum seekers to the EU must apply for asylum in the first country they arrive in....ever been to Dublin airport? ever seen direct flights from lagos?

Did that actually come into effect? I knew it was proposed but never heard it actually came in. Has anybody actually been sent back to another EU country as a result?
I agree that as there is no direct flights from Nigeria that it certainly indicates that they are not looking for asylum but are economic imigrants. Only the well off can make it here so it's not like we are actually helping the poorest or the persecuted masses. I have heard NGO on the radio say they have helped people come to Ireland which is nice for genuine cases but if I know of an orgainsation manipulating Ireland's poor facilities (ability to handle asylum cases) I will never give them money or my business. Beggers really can't be chosing where the system is not working and then because the system is not working then then say well then asylum must be granted due to the delay.
The likes of "residents against racisim" really annoy me becasue they manipulate everything and are very quick to call the racist card. They seem to think the end justifies the means.

stevejazzx · 04-01-2006 12:12PM

Shock_treatment wrote:

That one just p*sses me off. The same scam artist neighbours of mine have 5 children here, and another 3 in Romania.
Two of the children here they have false Irish birth certs for, and claiming for.
I wouldnt say this on here, unless I know this to be true.
Im sick and feckin tired of hearing the poor asylum seekers rant.
He was buying and cars like nobodys business..
let me tell you they know how to turn tricks. if there was money to be made, the sniffed it out.
At night he sent the missus out selling flowers in the pubs and clubs. I thought I was fcukin seeing things when I opened a window at the back of the house, and their back garden was like old mac donalds farm. there was feckin hens everywhere.. they were sellin eggs out at the market.
As if they werent given enough. now this one makes me sick.. whenever there was a day where charity bags would be full of clothes at peoples gateways ready for collection.. he would send the 3 yr old out pushing a buggy collecting them, then come round the back of the house - he took the bags off him and sent the young lad off again.Thats not even the half of the scams.

Im most certainly not racist, but I'm not about to root for them here.

Not a racist?
There is no understanding in your heart. You want to hate and it is a dangerous thing.
As I recall from another one of your posts you even have a problem with looking at their (foreigners) faces on the bus. This is an illogical and ignorant statement. You are full of fear.

Hobbes · 04-01-2006 12:12PM

Shock_treatment wrote:

Two of the children here they have false Irish birth certs for, and claiming for.
I wouldnt say this on here, unless I know this to be true.

If you know it to be true why don't you report them to the police then?

Im sick and feckin tired of hearing the poor asylum seekers rant.
He was buying and cars like nobodys business..

I think you don't know the difference between an Asylum seeker, refugee and immigrant.

seamus · 04-01-2006 12:13PM

If people don't start posting links, even to newspapers, I'm going to lock this.

None of this "My friend's Auntie's sister's hairdresser's mechanic said", or "My neighbours whom I watch through my curtains" bull****.

ST* · 04-01-2006 12:16PM

Hobbes wrote:

If you know it to be true why don't you report them to the police then?

That would only be a drop in the ocean. There are a hell of a lot more of them getting away with it than them. Whats the bloody point.

Delboy05 · 04-01-2006 12:20PM

Hobbes wrote:

Thats good. When you read those stories did you then go look up the figures to see if they were correct or not? You really should. I don't have the time now but I will go rummaging if you can't.
If you have never looked for the actual figures how can you make that assertion. I'll go look anyway.

I really don't think the Indo and the Times make this stuff up....in fact, The Irish Times is very sympathetic to aslyum seekers in Ireland and very rarely publishes a bad news story on them. The facts and figures they quote come from Govt or Refugee council reports usually.....do u believe no one except the asylum seekers themselves?

Hobbes wrote:

Go to the biki, look up threads of fame and then look at the referendum thread. Its huge but goes into detail why the "Get an Irish Baby and you get to stay here" is BS and has been for some time. There was a court case afair 1-2 years before the referendum that meant that having a kid here didn't automatically give you free rights to stay here.

I am well aware that the govt stopped taking in claims for irish-born children before the refereundum- where do you think the backlog built up, that led to the amnesty we've just had coming into play. It was 10,000 before the claims were stopped, and 18,000 since in the amnesty....FACT.

Hobbes wrote:

15% + 6% = 80%
Sorry just doesn't add up. Do you have an exact figure of how many won thier case based on a child? (you will probably find it in the referendum thread).

Again I ask you to look at what I wrote....A very small number of asylum seekers win their cases to stay here. But because so many failed cases have had irish-born children, over 80% of all the original applicants have remained on in Ireland whether their original case was won or lost. Can u not understand that?

Hobbes wrote:

Read up on it again. Yes they have to register at the first country but it also states that each member country must take on a certain amount of Asylum seekers even if they are not the first country they entered in on. Actually Ireland has the lowest (or near lowest) number of asylum seekers in Europe.

If they did register at the first country they entered, we'd be taking in quotas from Holland, France etc, as we'd have a duty under EU law to do so. In fact we're not doing this, as so many apply directly to ireland...why would u come via France/Germany etc to a small island on the western edges of europe....what would attract u here i wonder?????

In 2003, 25% of all nigerians who claimed asylum in western countries (EU, USA, Australia etc) did so in Ireland (source UNHCR)...........are we the former colonial power in Nigeria???? Do we have some historic links to nigeria???? Tell me, Hobbes, why do so many nigerians choose Ireland........

Delboy05 · 04-01-2006 12:29PM

http://www.unhcr.ch/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/statistics/opendoc.pdf?tbl=STATISTICS&id=41d2c18f0&page=statistics

In 2003, ,19,308 nigrians claimed asylum in 'industrialized' nations according to the UNHCR report above. 3,110 did so in ireland and, for example, 1,225 did so in france.

If you exclude S.Africa from the figures, you have a figure of 21% of all nigrians claiming asylum wroldwide in Western countries in 2003 doing so in ireland. I apologise for quoting 25% earlier.

stevejazzx · 04-01-2006 12:32PM

In 2003, 25% of all nigerians who claimed asylum in western countries (EU, USA, Australia etc) did so in Ireland (source UNHCR)...........are we the former colonial power in Nigeria???? Do we have some historic links to nigeria???? Tell me, Hobbes, why do so many nigerians choose Ireland........[/QUOTE]

Possibly they are hellbent on challenghing our smallmindedness...... or perhaps its just the free motors, I'm not sure

Hobbes · 04-01-2006 12:36PM

Shock_treatment wrote:

That would only be a drop in the ocean. There are a hell of a lot more of them getting away with it than them. Whats the bloody point.

Ahh ok so you know a person is commiting a serious crime yet you aren't going to report it because others are also committing the crime. How does that work?

Delboy05 please use the quoting system correctly or it causes people to quote you as if I am saying it (noticed it earlier).

Delboy05 wrote:

T
I really don't think the Indo and the Times make this stuff up

I don't think they do either, however it is very easy to manipulate figures by taking a subsection. For example again politics someone posted that 40% of the population felt Asylum seekers were a problem. However after we got a look at the report it had in fact pointed out that nearly 60% of the population had no problem with Asylum seekers and the majority didn't share the scaremongering tactic overall.

The facts and figures they quote come from Govt or Refugee council reports usually.....do u believe no one except the asylum seekers themselves?

No I will accept government reports. As I said I will have a read of the figures later.

Again I ask you to look at what I wrote....A very small number of asylum seekers win their cases to stay here. But because so many failed cases have had irish-born children, over 80% of all the original applicants have remained on in Ireland whether their original case was won or lost. Can u not understand that?

No because it doesn't add up with current government figures. You are saying that 80% of all Asylum seekers (failed cases) have had Irish children and thats why they stay here? Can you point me to the actual report where you got this from?

Hobbes wrote:

If they did register at the first country they entered, we'd be taking in quotas from Holland, France etc, as we'd have a duty under EU law to do so. In fact we're not doing this,

Actually we are.

Hobbes · 04-01-2006 12:42PM

Delboy05 wrote:

http://www.unhcr.ch/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/statistics/opendoc.pdf?tbl=STATISTICS&id=41d2c18f0&page=statistics

In 2003, ,19,308 nigrians claimed asylum in 'industrialized' nations according to the UNHCR report above. 3,110 did so in ireland and, for example, 1,225 did so in france.

That report is from 2003 and only lists Asylum applicants. You not try something more up to date? Example.
http://www.irishrefugeecouncil.ie/refugee_stats/july05.html

Yes Nigirians have a higher number then other applicants. However it is less then 1/3 of the number you have quoted and again it only applies to applicants and an even less total overall applies to those that got approval to stay. It also doesn't factor in the 1,117 who were detained and sent back straight away.

Even the 2004 stats are less then what you are claiming.

MorningStar · 04-01-2006 12:44PM

stevejazzx wrote:

just in case you were wondering i left out the word not after the word certainly first time around, i have edited now

I am very accepting of anybody who comes to Ireland to contribute. If people come here becasue it is easy I don't think that is right. It doesn't make me a racist it makes me dislike a criminal element entering the country. I go on the basis that if they try to manipulate the system from the start they are likely to be a criminal element. Cuba got rid of its criminals this way when they realised the US was easily taking people. It is possible that similar is happening.

http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2004/10/28/story173300.asp

Why come to Ireland? If we at risk the first direct flight out would have worked?
Nigeria is a very corrupt country and manipulation of the system is habit and as such thet manipulate our system. My wife deals with people from all around the world in Ireland and she has found that every single nigerian person on her courses has some form of scam. It may be anicdotial and not major items and very little difference to how people of lower social economic groups act here. But as a result Fas do not accept any qualification claimed by people from Nigeria. New policies have been brought in for all spcifically because of fraud from Nigerian citizens. It is not to do with race but a culture of corruption. Irish people try to break rules all the time too but we have moved on from the massive corruption of the 80s.
Crack Cocain in powder form was brought in by Nigerian gangs this is fact. Dublin gangs didn't know how it was made so the market is cornered by the nigerian gangs. If stopping this getting worse means stopping all it has to be considered.
I have not herad any one story that compells me to believe Irealnd was their first and only option it is a definite choice.
Multiculturalism has never worked we need intercultralism and naturalisation.

Delboy05 · 04-01-2006 12:58PM

HOBBES - That report is from 2003 and only lists Asylum applicants. You not try something more up to date? Example.
http://www.irishrefugeecouncil.ie/re...ts/july05.html

Yes Nigirians have a higher number then other applicants. However it is less then 1/3 of the number you have quoted and again it only applies to applicants and an even less total overall applies to those that got approval to stay. It also doesn't factor in the 1,117 who were detained and sent back straight away.

Even the 2004 stats are less then what you are claiming.

It is impossble to have a rational argument with you - I quoted 2003 as i knew the figures for that year. I point you to a UN report which backs me up. The UN report states that these people cailmed asylum in Ireland...i.e. therfore they were not turned away as you say, but were taken into the asylum system. How is it less than 1/3 of the number I have stated!!!!!

You really seem to have a problem with figures and maths- you really can't grasp even some of the basic points i make and work yourself up into a lather trying to put them down!!!. You cant even seem to correctly refer to the years I quote and instead imply I spoke about different years!!!!!
I have found that arguing with people like you on asylum/immigration is impossible - the mantra is....irish bad- foreign good, therefore lets get in as many immigrants as possible becuase we were a terrible race of people and the country the most boring and dull in the world, without them.

I have no problems with people, genuine people, seeking asylum. i believe Ireland should take a quota from other european countries - i also believe we should turn away every one that applies for asylum directly to us as there is no way they could be legit as we have no direct travel links with any country where asylum cases usually come from in this country (we do not as you say, take in people to fulfill our quota from other euro countries as we have more than enough coming here directly).
If you are genuinely in fear of your live, you'll claim asylum as soon as you can....end of story.

MorningStar · 04-01-2006 01:05PM

Delboy05 wrote:

If you are genuinely in fear of your live, you'll claim asylum as soon as you can....end of story.

This is a the bit I have never heard any argument for. Nobody from the involved parties ever give any answer I am really wondering is there any valid reason why they skip through other countries to get here. Family I could understand but that is a different type of application AFAIK.

dbnavan · 04-01-2006 01:15PM

As someone who is an Equality Officer I often wondered about this rumour of immigrants getting cars, I can now confirm following some investigation, it has never happened and is complete urban legend, immigrants DO NOT receive cars or funds towards them.

Hobbes · 04-01-2006 01:16PM

Delboy05 wrote:

It is impossble to have a rational argument with you - I quoted 2003 as i knew the figures for that year. I point you to a UN report which backs me up.

For that time period. You know you don't just pick out the stats that prove your point you pick up the most up to date stats.

How is it less than 1/3 of the number I have stated!!!!!

Actually read the wrong figure (that was July), apologies. It is actually half of what you stated.

2003 from Nigeria (your reference) = 3110
2004 from Nigeria = 1,776
2005 from Nigeria = 1,418 (up to september is latest figure I can find).

http://www.irishrefugeecouncil.ie/refugee_stats/stats_sept_05.html

Now they are only applications.

Ardent · 04-01-2006 01:32PM

flogen wrote:

So what you're telling me is this;
It's common knowledge that asylum seekers get free fancy stuff like prams, so common that people like you know about it without having to do any research at all.

My father was telling me of a lady he knows who went to buy a pram in the Buy & Sell. She called around to the house and it turned out to be a non-national with a room full of prams for sale.

I've also heard the free car story before many times and I have no reason not to believe it. Do some of the replies on this thread confirming it not make you wonder...?

ST* · 04-01-2006 01:38PM

Ardent wrote:

My father was telling me of a lady he knows who went to buy a pram in the Buy & Sell. She called around to the house and it turned out to be a non-national with a room full of prams for sale.

This I would believe in a flash. careful though, you have to linky here - opinions and experience don't hold any merit.

dbnavan · 04-01-2006 01:40PM

Ardent wrote:

My father was telling me of a lady he knows who went to buy a pram in the Buy & Sell. She called around to the house and it turned out to be a non-national with a room full of prams for sale.

I've also heard the free car story before many times and I have no reason not to believe it. Do some of the replies on this thread confirming it not make you wonder...?

As I said before free cars are urban legend, bottom line end of rumour, if they got A pram off the state they where entitled to it, just as Irish Unmarried or 'finiancially in need' do as well, Social Welfare monitior who gets what so unless the man got the prams else where, this is yet another rumor, you wouldnt have even heard about it, if an irish man had a few prams to sell.

Hobbes · 04-01-2006 01:44PM

Ardent wrote:

I've also heard the free car story before many times and I have no reason not to believe it. Do some of the replies on this thread confirming it not make you wonder...?

I've heard numerous times that Bill Gates, Microsoft and AOL are giving away free cash if you forward them your email address. Doesn't make it true.

My father was telling me of a lady he knows who went to buy a pram in the Buy & Sell. She called around to the house and it turned out to be a non-national with a room full of prams for sale.

True or not, who knows. But how does he know she got them from social welfare?

ST* · 04-01-2006 01:47PM

Hobbes wrote:

True or not, who knows. But how does he know she got them from social welfare?

Seeing as you will toy with the notion -
If not the social welfare, then where?

Hobbes · 04-01-2006 01:50PM

Shock_treatment wrote:

Seeing as you will toy with the notion -
If not the social welfare, then where?

Wholesaler?

Maybe she hijacked a lorryload of prams on its way to needy Irish Orphans. Who knows although the latter sounds as believable of her getting a room full of prams off the social welfare. And what is a roomful of prams? 1,2, 50 ?

MorningStar · 04-01-2006 01:51PM

Ardent wrote:

My father was telling me of a lady he knows who went to buy a pram in the Buy & Sell. She called around to the house and it turned out to be a non-national with a room full of prams for sale.

I've also heard the free car story before many times and I have no reason not to believe it. Do some of the replies on this thread confirming it not make you wonder...?

I wouldn't believe it is because they are getting free prams from the state. A friends sister married a Nigerian guy and if you want anny stolen goods he is the man to see. The big thing with him was shopping vouchers bought on stolen credit cards so I maybe he moved into prams. :rolleyes:

If you have people here living with out any means of legal income they were going to be involved in illegal stuff. I already said that insurance, motor tax and NCT are new concepts to some imigrants and they don't see the need. Not saying all but if you see the cars been driven around by people who are obviously not Irish many are really old and not taxed. It is something I noticed and maybe I shouldn't be noticing people's skin colour and features but I notice good looking people and ugly people too. I notice that most people driving mod cars in Dublin are track suit and generally skangers. To explain away the cars people made up the story about free cars and added "reason" behind it

ST* · 04-01-2006 01:57PM

Hobbes wrote:

Wholesaler?
..her getting a room full of prams off the social welfare. And what is a roomful of prams? 1,2, 50 ?

lmao.. a wholesaler?? where do they get the cash from to startup their
EE version of Mothercare?
Not many wholesalers are willing to hand up the prams upfront either.
Mothers aren't willing to leave their childrens prams and buggys outside shops anymore for fear they will be stolen.

oh! oh! I know!! they collect bits of old prams from dumps and the sides of the road, and glue them together with TLC and sell them on for only the fraction of the mothercare prices.....
holy c.rap.. :rolleyes:

dbnavan · 04-01-2006 02:04PM

MorningStar wrote:

A friends sister married a Nigerian guy and if you want anny stolen goods he is the man to see. The big thing with him was shopping vouchers bought on stolen credit cards so I maybe he moved into prams.

Guess what...... I know a guy and if you want phones he's ur man, I know another guy who if you want DVD's he's ur man, I know another guy and if you want dodgy leather jackets he's ur man!!!! Guess what though, they are all white!

So skin color has nothing to do with it!

DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT ENDORSE ANY OF THIS BEHAVEIOUR AND CANT AM NOT IN CONTROL OF THE MINDS OF PEOPLE I HAPPEN TO KNOW! :cool:

CiaranC · 04-01-2006 02:13PM

What shocking carry-on, moving to a richer country and selling prams to make money. These people are evil I tell you. Maybe we could set up some kind of concentration camp complex for these evil pram sellers.

billy the squid · 04-01-2006 02:14PM

jerryadams wrote:

I'd love if someone out there could shed light on this. I just learned about it this evening and can't say whether it's true or not.

Apparently, foreign nationals are given cars if claim they are being harrassed on public transport.

The social welfare is said to be sending out those who claim continued racial abuse on public transport, to select a car (within a budget of course) from a dealer whereupon they will tax and insure it for 3 months, and the new owner must then take over these overheads after this time.

The person who told me seemed to know a great deal about it, and it's supposed to be common knowledge among the immigrant community.

Is there anyone out there who works in the social, or who knows more about this, that would be in a position to confirm or deny the above?

If you are seriously interested in this claim then you are more than entitled to apply for information on it under the freedom of Information act. you should make your applications to either the department of Social Community or family affairs. or the the Health Service Execuitive.

When you finally do get a reply could you please post it up here no matter what the result, so as to shut this lot up?

Very interesting rumour RE: immigrants

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