Abortion

horseflesh · 05-12-2005 10:08AM

Scraggs wrote:

I remember reading a fact on the subway in new york that really interested me I wish I could remember it word for word...
but it was something like 60% of anti-abortionists are male...thats one to think about!

That was one of the points I was making. I'm surprised it's not more than 60% actually, probably is in Ireland.

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

the foetus /child has all the rights in my opinion,the woman sacrificed when she willingly spread her legs

Do you just hate women? Is that what your problem is??

RainyDay, TarAldarion, Shinners21 et al..... wrote:

the child

It's not a child. It has the potential to become a child yes, but within the timeframe of a legal abortion is is not a child.

king of inismac wrote:

Some may argue that abortion is fine as long as the foetus hasn't developed to a certain stage. Let's say they set a time of 2 months after conception that a parent can choose to abort the foetus. So if a woman comes into the abortion clinic 59 days after conception we allow the procedure to continue. However if her friend who also concieved the same day calls into the clinic two days later, we recognise the rights of her child and insist she can't have an abortion?

There have to be hard-and-fast rules legally. You have sex with a girl who's 16 years 364 days old and you could end up in jail. Wait 2 days and everything is fine and dandy. It has to be black and white.

king_of_inismac · 05-12-2005 10:44AM

It's not a child. It has the potential to become a child yes, but within the timeframe of a legal abortion is is not a child.

So you are saying after a certain age the foetus should be recognised as a person, with all the rights what go with that recognition? When the foetus is less developed, more vunerable it should have no rights whatsoever?

My point is the issue is not black and white as suggested earlier. The timeline for deveopment within the first month is as follows:

18 days: Heart is forming. Soon eyes start to develop.

20 days: Foundations of brain, spinal cord and nervous system are laid.

24 days: Heart begins to beat.

28 days: Muscles are developing along the future spine. Arms and legs are budding.

30 days: Child has grown 10,000 times to 6-7 mm (1/4") long. Brain has human proportions. Blood flows in veins (but stays separate from mother's blood).

So even after 24 days, the foetus has a beating heart, hardly what you would call a bunch of arbitary cells...

RainyDay · 05-12-2005 12:01PM

horseflesh wrote:

It's not a child. It has the potential to become a child yes, but within the timeframe of a legal abortion is is not a child.

Neo-natal care technology is outstripping abortion legislation. Some premature babies survive from as early as 22 weeks. Abortions are permitted in the UK up to 24 weeks.

But the idea of an arbitrary deadline of 24 weeks (or any arbitary deadline) is ludicrous. Many babies will survive before this. Some will not survive after this. Certainly, if left in their natural environment (the womb), most will survive.

Love · 05-12-2005 01:03PM

horseflesh wrote:

It's not a child. It has the potential to become a child yes, but within the timeframe of a legal abortion is is not a child.

Abortions can be carried out up to 24 weeks. There are babies born before 6 months who have survived. It is a child. And whether it is or not to you, it is alive and has a right to life.

I don't agree with abortion. Although I'm still unsure if I think the mother should have the choice or not, perhaps in some circumstances... I don't know for sure how I feel about that. But I do know that I couldn't have an abortion, to me that would be murder.

Shinners21 · 05-12-2005 01:12PM

***But I do know that I couldn't have an abortion, to me that would be murder.***

I totally agree, I honestly can't understand how anyone would feel any different...I know everyone is entitled to their opinion it's just hard to get my head around it.

LegacyUser · 05-12-2005 01:28PM

Hi, I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I am not here to argue if abortion is right or wrong, I am just here to give my opinion.

I, personally, do not agree with abortion. I would never consider abortion, under any circumstances. That is my choice. I know I could not live a normal life knowing what might have been. Knowing that I terminated a Childs life.
Who am I to decide if a child should live or die? I am not equipped to play God that is not my decision to make.

It is difficult to say for sure how I would react should I become pregnant through rape, I hope I never find out, but if I was pushed to give an answer to whether I think abortion, where unwanted pregnancy has resulted through rape, is ok, then my answer now would be no. I don't think, even under this circumstance, that I could justify abortion to myself.

However, what if a child (12/13/14) became pregnant as a result of rape, how would I feel should they decide to abort? I don't know, physically, and mentally, they may not be equipped to bring a healthy child into this world.

Where a husband and wife conceive a child, and decide to abort, I think this is morally wrong. Where a young couple, or a single woman, conceives, and is financially stable and emotionally stable enough to raise a child, and they decide to abort, I think this is wrong.

Where ANYONE decides to abort for convenience, I believe this to be wrong.

I realise I am rambling now. I apologise, I cannot answer the question for everyone, I can only answer for myself, and so for me, abortion is never an option.

king_of_inismac · 05-12-2005 01:43PM

However, what if a child (12/13/14) became pregnant as a result of rape, how would I fee should they decide to abort? I don't know, physically, and mentally, they may not be equipped to bring a healthy child into this world.

Good point. My feeling on this is that we should affort EQUAL rights to the life of the mother and the baby. In that way, abortion should be considered if it poses a real risk to the life of the mother.

Love · 05-12-2005 01:45PM

If I was raped I still wouldn't have an abortion. Thankfully I have never been in that situation but I don't think I could, even then. I would probably put the child up for adoption but I wouldn't take away it's right to live.

If a child became pregnant as a result of rape? I don't know. Think of how you would feel as that child.. or their parent... if that happened. I really don;t know how I would feel in this case.

Where ANYONE decides to abort for convenience, I believe this to be wrong.

Likewise.

horseflesh · 05-12-2005 02:10PM

So all you "pro-life" fundamentalists would be happy to force a 12 year old incest/rape victim through a pregnancy? Unless of course her life is in physical danger.

That's hardly very Christian of you is it......?

NikNik · 05-12-2005 02:29PM

My opinion is that unless you are in or have been in a situation, i.e. - you are female and have ended up pregnant as a result of rape, then you are not in a position to judge or speak on behalf of such people.

To me it's like representing the African-Americans in time of opression when you're not even black, or voicing your opinion on how an child feels when they are abused but you've never been abused yourself. You probably couldn't even begin to imagine what it's like or how you would feel in their shoes.

I might/might not have an abortion depending on the situation but I am definately pro-choice and I do believe women should have a right to choose what they do with their bodies - no question about it.

Edit: BTW I also think it's hypocritical of people who believe in modern medicine that saves live but who condemn abortion. Are we not also "playing God" by saving a life of someone who by natural desiese was meant to perish ?

patzer117 · 05-12-2005 02:43PM

horseflesh wrote:

So all you "pro-life" fundamentalists would be happy to force a 12 year old incest/rape victim through a pregnancy? Unless of course her life is in physical danger.

That's hardly very Christian of you is it......?

YES IT IS dammit! it is christian. It is by far the lesser of two evils.
By aborting the child you are both removing the life of the child and are scarring that little girl for life by taking away a child from her. She has gone through a traumatic experience, instead of coming to terms with it she has the added trauma or killing the foetus. The psychological effects are well documented and as bad, if not worse than having the baby.

To get around this 'unless of course her life is in danger point' too, almost all pro-lifers (including the Catholic Church) allow abortion in the case where the mother's life is at risk. Otherwise it could result in the deaths of the two, mother and child. They do not normally accept active abortion - just passive, where treatment to save the mother results in the death of the child, and it is not treatment to cause the death of the child.

But to get on to more mainstream issues, which is whether the child, the foetus, is human or not, the child is in biological continuem. Uninterrupted the child will be born and will prosper into an adult. Inside or outside the womb, killing the child is preventing a human life from prospering. Preventing human life from prospering is wrong even if you don't believe the foetus is a human.

That's my two cents for the afternoon, more later

patzer

LegacyUser · 05-12-2005 03:19PM

horseflesh wrote:

So all you "pro-life" fundamentalists would be happy to force a 12 year old incest/rape victim through a pregnancy? Unless of course her life is in physical danger.

That's hardly very Christian of you is it......?

SILLYSAUSAGE wrote:

However, what if a child (12/13/14) became pregnant as a result of rape, how would I feel should they decide to abort? I don't know, physically, and mentally, they may not be equipped to bring a healthy child into this world.

Just to clarify, I did say mentally able aswell as physically able.

Piste · 05-12-2005 03:21PM

I support abortion, because I do not believe that life begins at contraception. I would not regard a fetus as a child until it is born. I would regard it as alive purely in a physical sense when it's heart starts beating though, but not concious, which is a major characteristic of a full human being.

Shinners21 · 05-12-2005 05:39PM

Piste wrote:

I support abortion, because I do not believe that life begins at contraception. I would not regard a fetus as a child until it is born. I would regard it as alive purely in a physical sense when it's heart starts beating though, but not concious, which is a major characteristic of a full human being.

Do u mean conception?

Shinners21 · 05-12-2005 05:43PM

http://www.preciouslife.net/show-news.asp?NewsArticle=565 :mad:

05-12-2005 05:49PM

This abortion thread will definatly not turn into a flame fest.*

* Yes it will

just42day · 05-12-2005 05:50PM

Regular poster but not using my log on for this(not that I'm ashamed - just don't want to)...

Anyway, unless you've been in the situation I really don't believe that anyone has the right to say they would & wouldn't have a termination. You really don't know until you're there.
For medical reason I had a termination 6 years ago, it's not something that I decided on easily or anything, it broke my heart, but it had to be done.

I spoke with a lot of the girls in the clinic that day & every single one of them was devastated in their own way... I guess what I'm trying to say is, you have NO idea what it's like to go through this, you've go no right what so ever to say that these women are evil & are taking the easy way out, cause believe me, it's not easy, it's the hardest thing a woman will ever do & it's from personal experience it is a HORRIBLE thing to go through,

So have a little concideration ...

Shinners21 · 05-12-2005 06:01PM

A little consideration??

Noone is saying or doubting that it is a horrible thing to have to go through. I completely disagree with abortion, under any circumstance but I don't believe people who go ahead with them are evil. I cannot and will never understand how anyone could go ahead with it but that is my opinion, I'm not trying to push it on anyone or make anyone feel bad for their actions I just feel strongly about it.

just42day · 05-12-2005 06:10PM

Shinners21 wrote:

A little consideration??

Noone is saying or doubting that it is a horrible thing to have to go through. I completely disagree with abortion, under any circumstance but I don't believe people who go ahead with them are evil. I cannot and will never understand how anyone could go ahead with it but that is my opinion, I'm not trying to push it on anyone or make anyone feel bad for their actions I just feel strongly about it.

Ok so if that's your argument, what would you do in these circumstances ...
you have a birth defect, you're after being on a lot of meds & your pill didn't work, you get pregnant, excited, scared etc, go to the doctor - everything is confirmed, & then told well you have two options ... terminate or keep the baby, maybe get to 5 or six months (if you're lucky) & then have a massive stroke or heart attack that will kill both you & the baby????

What would you do?

Shinners21 · 05-12-2005 06:29PM

Did your doc tell you that you would 100% die after 5-6 months?? If so as I have said before it was your choice. I could not terminate a pregnancy for any reason. I know you may find that hard to believe and you can argue that I have not been in the situation so I wouldn’t know, well as far as Im concerned there is no reason that I would be able to go ahead. I would rather die of the stroke/ heart attck than willingly kill my unborn child.

rainbow kirby · 05-12-2005 06:31PM

the foetus /child has all the rights in my opinion,the woman sacrificed when she willingly spread her legs

This is an attitude which seems to be shared by a lot of pro-lifers... it's a very negative attitude to sex, and very insulting.

just42day · 05-12-2005 06:35PM

Shinners21 wrote:

Did your doc tell you that you would 100% die after 5-6 months?? If so as I have said before it was your choice. I could not terminate a pregnancy for any reason. I know you may find that hard to believe and you can argue that I have not been in the situation so I wouldn’t know, well as far as Im concerned there is no reason that I would be able to go ahead. I would rather die of the stroke/ heart attck than willingly kill my unborn child.

What a horrible naive attitude to have, I hope that life never lets anything like that happen to you, I know that you are young but can you really be that naive as to think that there is only black or white to this issue?

You really should try to keep an open mind when you're talking to someone that's been through it, i'm telling you my story so you can see that it's not always as clear cut & I find it very hard to believe that if you were put in the position that I was in that you wouldn't save your own life

ghostchant · 05-12-2005 07:00PM

In my opinion, abortion should only be used if the life of the mother is at risk, or if rape or child abuse has been involved. In fact, if the mother's life is in question, I think abortion is the right choice.
Any other reason for abortion can be solved just as well by putting the child up for adoption after he/she has been born. I just believe that everyone has a right to life. As for rape or child abuse, I cannot disagree with abortion in that case because it's far more complicated, and isnt just a question of 'I can do whatever I want with my body'.

Anyway it's just my opinion, I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong

RainyDay · 05-12-2005 10:26PM

Part of the problem with 'OK for rape/child abuse' approach is that this is completely unenforceable. When abortion was originally legalised in the UK (1950's I think?), the idea was that it would only be used where there was a serious risk to the mother. The signatures of 2 doctors were required to set a serious bar on the requirements. This has turned into abortion on demand, where private clinics will line up the doctors to sign the form.

There is no practical solution to the 'only for rape/child abuse' approach.

missingtime · 05-12-2005 11:13PM

I feel that the choice should be there for someone to have an abortion. Some people said that they would never ever have an abortion but the choice has to be there for people if its the last resort or they feel that they cant handle the situation.
People who are pro-life obviously wont choose abortion and people who are pro-choice MAY choose abortion. Just because its legalised doesnt mean that they have to avail of it.

segadreamcast · 05-12-2005 11:34PM

"The woman is upset..."

Mmm, the baby is dead. How about that?

I don't mean to oversimplify the issue; because it's so damn complex and, even within myself, I find it difficult to clarify my opinion on this one (I think it's the only political issue that I'm internally split about...). Thus, there's really no point in arguing it here - it'll go on for 15 pages, but the pro-lifers will remain pro-lifers...and the pro-choicers will remain pro-choicers... and the confused will remain confused: "The best lack all convictions, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity. " perhaps?

ronbyrne2005 · 06-12-2005 01:45AM

i think when dealing with the abortion issue you have to talk about it in general terms and not bring up individual cases where medical reasons made it neccessary as these are very rare as is pregnancy by rape etc. the vast majority of abortions do not involve rape or medical reasons.the fact is a child is a conscious human from around 22wks at least. its not neccesary to be a female and experience rape to understand how they feel,the same way you dont have to be the family of a murdered person to apprecaite their pain so cut the feminist "its my body" crap it gets us no where and gets the foetus killed.

nesf · 06-12-2005 02:41AM

Asok wrote:

Dementiaman site banned for being a dual account of ^CwAzY^ who has earned a fab 10 day siteban!

^CwAzY^'s temp month ban now a permenant one from this forum. For any who care.

RainyDay · 06-12-2005 08:48AM

missingtime wrote:

I feel that the choice should be there for someone to have an abortion. Some people said that they would never ever have an abortion but the choice has to be there for people if its the last resort or they feel that they cant handle the situation.
People who are pro-life obviously wont choose abortion and people who are pro-choice MAY choose abortion. Just because its legalised doesnt mean that they have to avail of it.

You're missing the point. The person most seriously impacted by the decision (i.e. the baby) doesn't get to participate in the 'choosing'. As a society, we generally don't leave the termination of life to be a matter of 'choice' for one party over another.

horseflesh · 06-12-2005 09:53AM

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

its not neccesary to be a female and experience rape to understand how they feel,the same way you dont have to be the family of a murdered person to apprecaite their pain so cut the feminist "its my body" crap it gets us no where and gets the foetus killed.

You really do hate women don't you?

Abortion

Comments