Luas line to Lucan

strassenwolf · 02-11-2005 10:25AM #1

Well "Metro West" has its own thread now, so how about this one for a discussion of the City Centre-Lucan LUAS.

I think it's probably an idea if there's limitless cash. The problem with yesterday's announcement is that it's not bringing public transport to areas of town that don't or won't have them in abundance.

What I mean is, the LUAS to Lucan seems to run from College Green to Lucan, pretty much parallel to the interconnector/Kildare Route between Pearse Station and Adamstown (south of Lucan). According to the dept. of transport map revealed yesterday, it looks like the two lines will probably never more than a mile apart, and a lot of the time a lot closer than that.

This might be okay if the number of trains on the Kildare line was remaining small. But it's not. There's eventually going to be a lot of trains on that route because of the interconnector. There's also going to be a lot of trains on the Maynooth Line (because of the interconnector) and that line passes to the north of Lucan. It was mentioned in this forum a couple of weeks ago that a Lucan North station had been proposed for this line.

So there's a fair amount of duplication to one area of town. Perhaps a tram line (or a really good bus service) between Lucan North and Adamstown, via Lucan, would save building a tram line the whole way into town.

luckat · 02-11-2005 11:24AM

It makes a laughable pass at serving the flatlands of Rathmines and Harold's Cross - very handy if you're going to Phibsboro. Nobody I know in either suburb travels regularly there; they all travel to Dublin city centre. Useless.

Bring a Luas up Harold's Cross by Clanbrassil Street and then run it along Leinster Road and up through upper Rathmines - *that* would be useful.

You could then join it to the Cowper Road station, or else bring it on up through Dundrum and out to Enniskerry.

strassenwolf · 02-11-2005 11:41AM

Well, according to the Dept. of transport map, the LUAS to Lucan seems to run approx. as follows:

College Green-Christchurch-Thomas Street-James Street-Kilmainham-Inchicore (Interchange with DART)-Ballyfermot-Coldcut-Liffey Valley

The DART to Adamstown runs approx as follows (from Pearse)

Pearse-St. Stephen's Green-High Street (Christchurch)-Heuston-Inchicore-Park West-Fonthill Road-Adamstown.

So basically parallel lines.

I agree, Luckat, that Clanbrassil Street could be used to get to Rathmines, etc. But I'd favour continuing the metro to Harold's Cross rather than allowing trains into the city to just fizzle out on their way to St. Stephen's Green. Gradually over the years it could then be extended further south/west

philologos · 02-11-2005 11:45AM

does anyone have any links to the dept of transport plans?

strassenwolf · 02-11-2005 11:56AM

Jakkass wrote:

does anyone have any links to the dept of transport plans?

Well this is the proposed Dublin stuff - most of it anyway (it may not include all the proposed LUAS lines)

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7048-5.pdf

Winters · 02-11-2005 01:07PM

This new Transport 21 proposed Lucan luas line is quite ad hoc. Why dont they go with the previously proposed and examined route from DTO Platform for change? This used the South Circular Road and linked up with the Green line at Harcourt, the DART at Grand Canal Dock and the Red Luas line, DART and mainline at Spencer Dock.

The reason I suspect is that it wouldnt connect with the Metro North. Silly planning. The current alignment parallels the interconnector route.

http://www.dto.ie/fig4.pdf
http://www.dto.ie/fig7.pdf

philologos · 02-11-2005 02:05PM

the changes listed here are welcome if they come about by 2015. Which I doubt will ever happen to be honest because they are planning to build the Western Link rail between Sligo and Ennis and they are building pretty much an entire motorway network at the same time as this Dublin metro plan

ApeXaviour · 02-11-2005 02:13PM

All I can say is that there better be tickets that are bus/luas/metro/dart/interconnector all in one (like every other western country) or it's a complete joke. The more private-partnerships there the less likely the above is...

ballooba · 02-11-2005 02:22PM

I would suspect that the ITS (Integrated Ticketing System) is a t an advanced stage given that the RFID Tag validators are installed on a lot of buses already.

philologos · 02-11-2005 02:24PM

ApeXaviour wrote:

All I can say is that there better be tickets that are bus/luas/metro/dart/interconnector all in one (like every other western country) or it's a complete joke. The more private-partnerships there the less likely the above is...

that wouldnt be hard to do in other cities they have private companies running different things. All you need is a central commission from each of the different companies to divide the profits between the companies.

murphaph · 02-11-2005 02:40PM

The Lucan Luas is crazy, particularly in this incarnation. As has been pointed out, Lucan is sandwiched between 2 lines 'supposed' to be upgraded to high frequency DART. In ANY sane country the area between these two heavy rail lines would be serviced by north-south running buses (high frequency on high quality QBCs where traffic jams occur) feeding into the stations on the DART lines. This would serve MORE people and get them into the south inner city (Still no. 1 destination for transit in Ireland) FASTER than a tram. The Tram is great in the right environment, but this is not it. The max speed of a Luas (on segregated stretches!) is 70km/h. The max speed of a DART is 70mph, with nothing stopping a higher speed in future.

The money saved on this Luas which parallels the DART (maybe) could be spent much more wisely on a Luas to an area with no rail connection within a reasonable distance (Finglas perhaps).

This proposed Luas line to Lucan will prove very disappointing to the majority of people who think they live in Lucan as it will be a long (unrealistic) walk for many to actually get to it.

Winters · 02-11-2005 02:50PM

The current Luas Smart card is just a glorified debit card. The RPA have shown with the development of the Smart card over simple integrated ticketing that the idea of one ticket - multiple journeys is lost on them.

SeanW · 02-11-2005 08:59PM

ballooba wrote:

I would suspect that the ITS (Integrated Ticketing System) is a t an advanced stage given that the RFID Tag validators are installed on a lot of buses already.

Emm ... theres a difference between smart cards and integrated ticketing. Smart cards just means that you can use the same card to pay for everything, like a glorified debit card, with a chip in it. big deal.

"Integrated Ticketing" means that you only pay once for a journey regardless of what "legs" your jounrey has, for example you start your journey on Howth DART, change for Luas at Connolly, then change for a bus to Citywest you do it with one ticket, one fare. You really have to go and visit a modern European capital to see what Integration really is, such as Berlin for example.

ApeXaviour · 02-11-2005 10:57PM

SeanW wrote:

Emm ... theres a difference between smart cards and integrated ticketing. Smart cards just means that you can use the same card to pay for everything, like a glorified debit card, with a chip in it. big deal.

"Integrated Ticketing" means that you only pay once for a journey regardless of what "legs" your jounrey has, for example you start your journey on Howth DART, change for Luas at Connolly, then change for a bus to Citywest you do it with one ticket, one fare.

Yes thank-you Sean, smart cards are no better than a whole lot of change in your pocket, you're still paying loads just to change from bus to luas to metro etc.. if that was the case I'd be better off driving tbh timewise AND fiscally.

bk · 03-11-2005 12:14AM

SeanW wrote:

Emm ... theres a difference between smart cards and integrated ticketing. Smart cards just means that you can use the same card to pay for everything, like a glorified debit card, with a chip in it. big deal.

You are right, however a Smartcard system is a prerequiste for a decent integrated ticketing system.

Yes integrated ticketing already exists between Rail, Dart, Bus and Luas, however at the moment it is simply to difficult to use, overly expensive and most people don't even know it exists.

A Smart card Integrated Ticket will likely lead to much higher use and potentially more cost effective use.

The debit card system in place on Luas will be handy for light users wanting to reduce times at ticket machines, however really it is jsut a test, the real thing will come later once all the buses are upgraded and the Dart, surburban rail stations introduce it. The current Luas technology is completely compatible with more advanced systems. This will likely happen on a phased bases with more avanced options being added as they go.

I'm actually surprised at how fast the rollout is going, I was expecting rail/dart would get it next and that it would take much longer to get on buses. The buses are really the hard part because there are so many compared to rail stations.

mackerski · 03-11-2005 12:26AM

bk wrote:

You are right, however a Smartcard system is a prerequiste for a decent integrated ticketing system.

You reckon?

Dermot

GerardKeating · 03-11-2005 12:29AM

strassenwolf wrote:

But I'd favour continuing the metro to Harold's Cross rather than allowing trains into the city to just fizzle out on their way to St. Stephen's Green. Gradually over the years it could then be extended further south/west

An advantage of this would be to avoid the need to dig at the green, the TBM could start in Harolds Cross...

murphaph · 03-11-2005 12:32AM

I'm not sure the TBM will be inserted at Stephen's Green. They might use the Iveagh Gardens.

BrianD · 03-11-2005 12:45AM

The lucan luas seems to be badly though out. Money would be better spent on two new stations - north and south of the town and used to upgrade those lines. Luas to Finglas would make sense or along the malahide road. ANother route could be south and west through rathmines.

strassenwolf · 03-11-2005 08:32AM

GerardKeating wrote:

An advantage of this would be to avoid the need to dig at the green, the TBM could start in Harolds Cross...

Well I think were probably going to be doing some digging at the Green to put in the station. I don't know anything about tunnelling, but that might require more extensive digging than putting in a tunnel machine. No? And they plan to put in a station on at least two levels (interconnector/metro).

markpb · 03-11-2005 09:53AM

bk wrote:

The current Luas technology is completely compatible with more advanced systems. This will likely happen on a phased bases with more avanced options being added as they go.

Unless you mean the radio waves it uses are vaguely compatible with some RFID spec, the current Luas technology is compatible with nothing. There's much more to a smartcard system than just being able to communicate with a card.

AFAIK there is no plan to integrate the smartcard tickets just yet. Instead, they plan to let each of the three companies roll our their own independent smartcard ticketing systems. If all goes well, each companies will install readers for the other companies cards and try to sort out the mess at the back-end.

Integrated ticketing this is not. It's a step back from the bus/rail, bus/luas magstrip cards we have at the moment.

ApeXaviour · 03-11-2005 10:41AM

BrianD wrote:

The lucan luas seems to be badly though out. Money would be better spent on two new stations - north and south of the town and used to upgrade those lines.

Riiight... and how would that help Lucan exactly? These two new stations north and south (they're upgrading the existing luas lines as it is, if you'd paid attention) are not as needed as much as an easier commute from Lucan. With a population of 40,000 set to double in the next 10 years, think about it.. :rolleyes:

markpb wrote:

If all goes well, each companies will install readers for the other companies cards and try to sort out the mess at the back-end.

Integrated ticketing this is not. It's a step back from the bus/rail, bus/luas magstrip cards we have at the moment.

It's a complete joke..

jlang · 03-11-2005 10:58AM

ApeXaviour wrote:

Riiight... and how would that help Lucan exactly?

I dunno, but if I was in Lucan, I think I'd prefer to get to Adamstown station and then DART direct to St Stephen's Green rather than get to Liffey Valley, then a Luas into town.

Depends where in Lucan I'm coming from and where my ultimate destination is but the fact is the Dublin-Cork line passes pretty close to Lucan. Between the 4-tracking, new stations and the Interconnector the connectivity to the city along that corridor will be transformed.

If a station just north of the river was to open on the Maynooth line as well it could be the best option for people near Lucan village/Laraghcon (change to DART 2 at Pearse/ Metro West at Coolmine/ Metro North at Glasnevin/ Red Luas at Connolly).

The Luas seems designed as much to feed people out to Liffey Valley area and the Metro West line as to connect Lucan people to town.

Yes, having Luas would be great but Adamstown+DART sounds better - anyway, Lucan seems to be doing very well thank you out of all this. The sprawl of semi-D's that it has become is not really suitable for having everybody within a 5min walk of a station but three lines serving the area comes pretty close.

bk · 03-11-2005 01:10PM

markpb wrote:

Unless you mean the radio waves it uses are vaguely compatible with some RFID spec, the current Luas technology is compatible with nothing. There's much more to a smartcard system than just being able to communicate with a card.

AFAIK there is no plan to integrate the smartcard tickets just yet. Instead, they plan to let each of the three companies roll our their own independent smartcard ticketing systems. If all goes well, each companies will install readers for the other companies cards and try to sort out the mess at the back-end.

Both the LUAS and the new Bus ticket machines use the ITSO standard contactless cards and readers from the same company http://www.wayfarer.co.uk

See the new bus ticket machines:
http://www.wayfarer.co.uk/solutions/smartcards/smarttgx.htm

I don't know about IE but I assume they will also use the same standard. That means no new euipment will need to be installed in future.

You are partly right, initially IE, DB and RPA will probably run independent ticket systems until thet sort out the back office integration and revenue sharing agreements. But once it is integrated, all the ticket readers will remain the same, you'll just get a new card (the new card will just be the same as the old, but with some sort of platform neutral branding, like Oyster in the UK).

Personally I'm looking forward to it as it will have many benefits.

markpb · 03-11-2005 01:37PM

bk wrote:

You are partly right, initially IE, DB and RPA will probably run independent ticket systems until thet sort out the back office integration and revenue sharing agreements.

Which could be a *very* long time away yet. Almost all of the companies who expressed interest in tendering for the project walked away because of the mess it's currently in. What should be a relatively simple system is being crushed by lack of political will, infighting and no overall dublin transport authority.

But once it is integrated, all the ticket readers will remain the same, you'll just get a new card (the new card will just be the same as the old, but with some sort of platform neutral branding, like Oyster in the UK).

Not necessarily. That's just one of the options being evaluated at the moment.

Personally I'm looking forward to it as it will have many benefits.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a properly thought out and well implemented integrated ticketing system and I think it would make a big difference but the current one is awful in every respect.

Winters · 03-11-2005 02:38PM

strassenwolf wrote:

Well I think were probably going to be doing some digging at the Green to put in the station. I don't know anything about tunnelling, but that might require more extensive digging than putting in a tunnel machine. No? And they plan to put in a station on at least two levels (interconnector/metro).

You should take a read of the lastest RPA presentation to the joint committee

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=TRJ200 51027.xml&Node=H2&Page=4

They talk about the TBM and proceeding it on to Beechwood, Harolds Cross/Kimmage or just leaving it in the ground. If thats the case then there's a hell of a big amount of ancillary works needed in the launch shaft behind a TBM. St. Stephens Green couldnt cope. It should be continued on no doubt.

spacetweek · 09-11-2005 08:55PM

ApeXaviour wrote:

Riiight... and how would that help Lucan exactly? These two new stations north and south

As a long time (but no more!) resident of Lucan, I can tell you that the north and south DART stations will be useless for virtually everyone that lives in Lucan.

The north station seems close as the crow flies, but the road you'd need to use to get to it is winding, steep, and very dangerous with no footpaths. The only people within walking distance of it are the residents of Laraghcon, all of whom paid 400k+ for their houses and own Beemers. Don't see them traipsing up the boreen to the DART station any time soon.

The south station will be handy but is still too far (20-30 mins walk) from the majority of Lucan residents in the old part of the town. Everyone in old Lucan, Ballyowen, and Ronanstown are out of walking distance of any theoretical station on either DART line.

A Luas line is the only reasonable solution. It will serve Ronanstown, Ballyowen and Esker, and will presumably penetrate north of the N4, though I don't see an obvious alignment - maybe through Griffeen/Vesey Park terminating at the Newcastle road. This is about a 5-10 min walk for virtually any Lucanian.

It's unfortunate that the two mainlines that pass Lucan were both built too far away to be of any use for the village centre, but it's too late to think about that now. We need a Luas to get us into the city - the existing buses, although plentiful, are gridlocked in rush hour despite bus lanes all over the place.

Victor · 09-11-2005 09:21PM

spacetweek wrote:

The north station seems close as the crow flies, but the road you'd need to use to get to it is winding, steep, and very dangerous with no footpaths. The only people within walking distance of it are the residents of Laraghcon, all of whom paid 400k+ for their houses and own Beemers. Don't see them traipsing up the boreen to the DART station any time soon.

Modest development is proposed on the north side of the river.

The south station will be handy but is still too far (20-30 mins walk) from the majority of Lucan residents in the old part of the town. Everyone in old Lucan, Ballyowen, and Ronanstown are out of walking distance of any theoretical station on either DART line.

It will be very useful for Adamstown and QBCs will link the rest of the area.

It's unfortunate that the two mainlines that pass Lucan were both built too far away to be of any use for the village centre,

Rather, Lucan (town) was expanded in the wrong places.

murphaph · 09-11-2005 11:04PM

The Lucan Luas to the city centre will be thrashed on speed by DART from Adamstown and Lucan North. FCC wish to construct a new road from Ongar to the M4 J2 interchange. If and when this opens, traffic from Lucan-D15 could be forced to use it and serius bus priority measures introduced on north-south routes through Lucan (including making the old main street bus only).

The road from Lucan village to Lucan North could be upgraded to include foot and cylce paths at modest cost.

The roads in 'new lucan' are, for the most part, wide enough to be upgraded to include 24 hr buslanes (FCC is doing this to similar 'suburban' roads in D15 to allow proper bus priority measures on north-south routes to interchange at Porterstown station, when it's built, SDCC could do the same!).

The Luas is snazzy and flash, but not the best solution (especially in tis incarnation-the original PFC incarnaion had some advantages because it didn't 'compete' with heavy rail to get to the city centre, it provided a new south city orbital route altogether!). The bus (including road widening and bus priority measures) & DART would be far better for most people in Lucan.

Ronanstown is within 5 mins walk of the railway. Look for Ronanstown Garda Station and see where it is!

dr zoidberg · 10-11-2005 01:11PM

Does anyone have a map of this planned development for Lucan north of the Liffey? Because the Maynooth line is certainly too far from Lucan as it is. Besides, surely any development there would be Leixlip east rather than Lucan (unless it was a very big development, it would not be close to the train line without being built just east of Leixlip).

The Kildare line would be good enough for the people in south Lucan and Ronanstown, but at the same time as said no line is near enough to the centre of the town.

Of course, the real problem would be a lack of park and ride facilities at train stations on the DART lines. The transport plan only has one of these planned at Liffey Valley and doesn't mention any other ones.

murphaph · 10-11-2005 01:41PM

dr zoidberg wrote:

Does anyone have a map of this planned development for Lucan north of the Liffey?

Here you go. The brown coloured area is zoned for residential. It is actually walkable to the Maynooth line which sweeps south from Clonsilla (the dark green stretch) but if you didn't want to walk you could cycle or take a feeder bus.

Incidentaly, you can also see the planned road from Ongar o the M4 J2. It's the dashed grey line running roughly north-south at the western side of the map. Traffic could be diverted to this road and away from Lucan Village (legally enforced!) and buses could have free reign through Lucan's north-south routes linking the railway stations.

dr zoidberg wrote:

The Kildare line would be good enough for the people in south Lucan and Ronanstown, but at the same time as said no line is near enough to the centre of the town.

Most people don't live in the old village of Lucan which is actually pretty small and will be dwarfed by Adamstown. Again, feeder buses from the village to the two stations could be provided. Proper bus priority measures would have to be provided, up to and including banning cars from the Ulster Bank round to Courtneys.

dr zoidberg wrote:

Of course, the real problem would be a lack of park and ride facilities at train stations on the DART lines. The transport plan only has one of these planned at Liffey Valley and doesn't mention any other ones.

You're completely missing the point. It's not to provide P&R for areas like Lucan rather to provide a reliable, quality bus feed into the heavy rail network. That's how it's done elsewhere and encouraging people to clog up the streets of Lucan to get to a station which is maybe only a mile away is nonsensical.

Luas line to Lucan

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