Luas line to Lucan

strassenwolf

Well "Metro West" has its own thread now, so how about this one for a discussion of the City Centre-Lucan LUAS.

I think it's probably an idea if there's limitless cash. The problem with yesterday's announcement is that it's not bringing public transport to areas of town that don't or won't have them in abundance.

What I mean is, the LUAS to Lucan seems to run from College Green to Lucan, pretty much parallel to the interconnector/Kildare Route between Pearse Station and Adamstown (south of Lucan). According to the dept. of transport map revealed yesterday, it looks like the two lines will probably never more than a mile apart, and a lot of the time a lot closer than that.

This might be okay if the number of trains on the Kildare line was remaining small. But it's not. There's eventually going to be a lot of trains on that route because of the interconnector. There's also going to be a lot of trains on the Maynooth Line (because of the interconnector) and that line passes to the north of Lucan. It was mentioned in this forum a couple of weeks ago that a Lucan North station had been proposed for this line.

So there's a fair amount of duplication to one area of town. Perhaps a tram line (or a really good bus service) between Lucan North and Adamstown, via Lucan, would save building a tram line the whole way into town.

luckat

It makes a laughable pass at serving the flatlands of Rathmines and Harold's Cross - very handy if you're going to Phibsboro. Nobody I know in either suburb travels regularly there; they all travel to Dublin city centre. Useless.

Bring a Luas up Harold's Cross by Clanbrassil Street and then run it along Leinster Road and up through upper Rathmines - *that* would be useful.

You could then join it to the Cowper Road station, or else bring it on up through Dundrum and out to Enniskerry.

strassenwolf

Well, according to the Dept. of transport map, the LUAS to Lucan seems to run approx. as follows:

College Green-Christchurch-Thomas Street-James Street-Kilmainham-Inchicore (Interchange with DART)-Ballyfermot-Coldcut-Liffey Valley

The DART to Adamstown runs approx as follows (from Pearse)

Pearse-St. Stephen's Green-High Street (Christchurch)-Heuston-Inchicore-Park West-Fonthill Road-Adamstown.

So basically parallel lines.


I agree, Luckat, that Clanbrassil Street could be used to get to Rathmines, etc. But I'd favour continuing the metro to Harold's Cross rather than allowing trains into the city to just fizzle out on their way to St. Stephen's Green. Gradually over the years it could then be extended further south/west

philologos

does anyone have any links to the dept of transport plans?

strassenwolf

Jakkass wrote:

does anyone have any links to the dept of transport plans?

Well this is the proposed Dublin stuff - most of it anyway (it may not include all the proposed LUAS lines)

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7048-5.pdf

Winters

This new Transport 21 proposed Lucan luas line is quite ad hoc. Why dont they go with the previously proposed and examined route from DTO Platform for change? This used the South Circular Road and linked up with the Green line at Harcourt, the DART at Grand Canal Dock and the Red Luas line, DART and mainline at Spencer Dock.

The reason I suspect is that it wouldnt connect with the Metro North. Silly planning. The current alignment parallels the interconnector route.


http://www.dto.ie/fig4.pdf
http://www.dto.ie/fig7.pdf

philologos

the changes listed here are welcome if they come about by 2015. Which I doubt will ever happen to be honest because they are planning to build the Western Link rail between Sligo and Ennis and they are building pretty much an entire motorway network at the same time as this Dublin metro plan

ApeXaviour

All I can say is that there better be tickets that are bus/luas/metro/dart/interconnector all in one (like every other western country) or it's a complete joke. The more private-partnerships there the less likely the above is...

ballooba

I would suspect that the ITS (Integrated Ticketing System) is a t an advanced stage given that the RFID Tag validators are installed on a lot of buses already.

philologos

ApeXaviour wrote:

All I can say is that there better be tickets that are bus/luas/metro/dart/interconnector all in one (like every other western country) or it's a complete joke. The more private-partnerships there the less likely the above is...

that wouldnt be hard to do in other cities they have private companies running different things. All you need is a central commission from each of the different companies to divide the profits between the companies.

murphaph

The Lucan Luas is crazy, particularly in this incarnation. As has been pointed out, Lucan is sandwiched between 2 lines 'supposed' to be upgraded to high frequency DART. In ANY sane country the area between these two heavy rail lines would be serviced by north-south running buses (high frequency on high quality QBCs where traffic jams occur) feeding into the stations on the DART lines. This would serve MORE people and get them into the south inner city (Still no. 1 destination for transit in Ireland) FASTER than a tram. The Tram is great in the right environment, but this is not it. The max speed of a Luas (on segregated stretches!) is 70km/h. The max speed of a DART is 70mph, with nothing stopping a higher speed in future.

The money saved on this Luas which parallels the DART (maybe) could be spent much more wisely on a Luas to an area with no rail connection within a reasonable distance (Finglas perhaps).

This proposed Luas line to Lucan will prove very disappointing to the majority of people who think they live in Lucan as it will be a long (unrealistic) walk for many to actually get to it.

Winters

The current Luas Smart card is just a glorified debit card. The RPA have shown with the development of the Smart card over simple integrated ticketing that the idea of one ticket - multiple journeys is lost on them.

SeanW

ballooba wrote:

I would suspect that the ITS (Integrated Ticketing System) is a t an advanced stage given that the RFID Tag validators are installed on a lot of buses already.

Emm ... theres a difference between smart cards and integrated ticketing. Smart cards just means that you can use the same card to pay for everything, like a glorified debit card, with a chip in it. big deal.

"Integrated Ticketing" means that you only pay once for a journey regardless of what "legs" your jounrey has, for example you start your journey on Howth DART, change for Luas at Connolly, then change for a bus to Citywest you do it with one ticket, one fare. You really have to go and visit a modern European capital to see what Integration really is, such as Berlin for example.

ApeXaviour

SeanW wrote:

Emm ... theres a difference between smart cards and integrated ticketing. Smart cards just means that you can use the same card to pay for everything, like a glorified debit card, with a chip in it. big deal.

"Integrated Ticketing" means that you only pay once for a journey regardless of what "legs" your jounrey has, for example you start your journey on Howth DART, change for Luas at Connolly, then change for a bus to Citywest you do it with one ticket, one fare.

Yes thank-you Sean, smart cards are no better than a whole lot of change in your pocket, you're still paying loads just to change from bus to luas to metro etc.. if that was the case I'd be better off driving tbh timewise AND fiscally.

bk

SeanW wrote:

Emm ... theres a difference between smart cards and integrated ticketing. Smart cards just means that you can use the same card to pay for everything, like a glorified debit card, with a chip in it. big deal.

You are right, however a Smartcard system is a prerequiste for a decent integrated ticketing system.

Yes integrated ticketing already exists between Rail, Dart, Bus and Luas, however at the moment it is simply to difficult to use, overly expensive and most people don't even know it exists.

A Smart card Integrated Ticket will likely lead to much higher use and potentially more cost effective use.

The debit card system in place on Luas will be handy for light users wanting to reduce times at ticket machines, however really it is jsut a test, the real thing will come later once all the buses are upgraded and the Dart, surburban rail stations introduce it. The current Luas technology is completely compatible with more advanced systems. This will likely happen on a phased bases with more avanced options being added as they go.

I'm actually surprised at how fast the rollout is going, I was expecting rail/dart would get it next and that it would take much longer to get on buses. The buses are really the hard part because there are so many compared to rail stations.

mackerski

bk wrote:

You are right, however a Smartcard system is a prerequiste for a decent integrated ticketing system.

You reckon?



Dermot

GerardKeating

strassenwolf wrote:

But I'd favour continuing the metro to Harold's Cross rather than allowing trains into the city to just fizzle out on their way to St. Stephen's Green. Gradually over the years it could then be extended further south/west

An advantage of this would be to avoid the need to dig at the green, the TBM could start in Harolds Cross...

murphaph

I'm not sure the TBM will be inserted at Stephen's Green. They might use the Iveagh Gardens.

BrianD

The lucan luas seems to be badly though out. Money would be better spent on two new stations - north and south of the town and used to upgrade those lines. Luas to Finglas would make sense or along the malahide road. ANother route could be south and west through rathmines.

strassenwolf

GerardKeating wrote:

An advantage of this would be to avoid the need to dig at the green, the TBM could start in Harolds Cross...

Well I think were probably going to be doing some digging at the Green to put in the station. I don't know anything about tunnelling, but that might require more extensive digging than putting in a tunnel machine. No? And they plan to put in a station on at least two levels (interconnector/metro).

markpb

bk wrote:

The current Luas technology is completely compatible with more advanced systems. This will likely happen on a phased bases with more avanced options being added as they go.

Unless you mean the radio waves it uses are vaguely compatible with some RFID spec, the current Luas technology is compatible with nothing. There's much more to a smartcard system than just being able to communicate with a card.

AFAIK there is no plan to integrate the smartcard tickets just yet. Instead, they plan to let each of the three companies roll our their own independent smartcard ticketing systems. If all goes well, each companies will install readers for the other companies cards and try to sort out the mess at the back-end.

Integrated ticketing this is not. It's a step back from the bus/rail, bus/luas magstrip cards we have at the moment.

ApeXaviour

BrianD wrote:

The lucan luas seems to be badly though out. Money would be better spent on two new stations - north and south of the town and used to upgrade those lines.

Riiight... and how would that help Lucan exactly? These two new stations north and south (they're upgrading the existing luas lines as it is, if you'd paid attention) are not as needed as much as an easier commute from Lucan. With a population of 40,000 set to double in the next 10 years, think about it.. :rolleyes:

markpb wrote:

If all goes well, each companies will install readers for the other companies cards and try to sort out the mess at the back-end.

Integrated ticketing this is not. It's a step back from the bus/rail, bus/luas magstrip cards we have at the moment.

It's a complete joke..

jlang

ApeXaviour wrote:

Riiight... and how would that help Lucan exactly?

I dunno, but if I was in Lucan, I think I'd prefer to get to Adamstown station and then DART direct to St Stephen's Green rather than get to Liffey Valley, then a Luas into town.

Depends where in Lucan I'm coming from and where my ultimate destination is but the fact is the Dublin-Cork line passes pretty close to Lucan. Between the 4-tracking, new stations and the Interconnector the connectivity to the city along that corridor will be transformed.

If a station just north of the river was to open on the Maynooth line as well it could be the best option for people near Lucan village/Laraghcon (change to DART 2 at Pearse/ Metro West at Coolmine/ Metro North at Glasnevin/ Red Luas at Connolly).

The Luas seems designed as much to feed people out to Liffey Valley area and the Metro West line as to connect Lucan people to town.

Yes, having Luas would be great but Adamstown+DART sounds better - anyway, Lucan seems to be doing very well thank you out of all this. The sprawl of semi-D's that it has become is not really suitable for having everybody within a 5min walk of a station but three lines serving the area comes pretty close.

bk

markpb wrote:

Unless you mean the radio waves it uses are vaguely compatible with some RFID spec, the current Luas technology is compatible with nothing. There's much more to a smartcard system than just being able to communicate with a card.

AFAIK there is no plan to integrate the smartcard tickets just yet. Instead, they plan to let each of the three companies roll our their own independent smartcard ticketing systems. If all goes well, each companies will install readers for the other companies cards and try to sort out the mess at the back-end.

Both the LUAS and the new Bus ticket machines use the ITSO standard contactless cards and readers from the same company http://www.wayfarer.co.uk

See the new bus ticket machines:
http://www.wayfarer.co.uk/solutions/smartcards/smarttgx.htm

I don't know about IE but I assume they will also use the same standard. That means no new euipment will need to be installed in future.

You are partly right, initially IE, DB and RPA will probably run independent ticket systems until thet sort out the back office integration and revenue sharing agreements. But once it is integrated, all the ticket readers will remain the same, you'll just get a new card (the new card will just be the same as the old, but with some sort of platform neutral branding, like Oyster in the UK).

Personally I'm looking forward to it as it will have many benefits.

markpb

bk wrote:

You are partly right, initially IE, DB and RPA will probably run independent ticket systems until thet sort out the back office integration and revenue sharing agreements.

Which could be a *very* long time away yet. Almost all of the companies who expressed interest in tendering for the project walked away because of the mess it's currently in. What should be a relatively simple system is being crushed by lack of political will, infighting and no overall dublin transport authority.

But once it is integrated, all the ticket readers will remain the same, you'll just get a new card (the new card will just be the same as the old, but with some sort of platform neutral branding, like Oyster in the UK).

Not necessarily. That's just one of the options being evaluated at the moment.

Personally I'm looking forward to it as it will have many benefits.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a properly thought out and well implemented integrated ticketing system and I think it would make a big difference but the current one is awful in every respect.

Winters

strassenwolf wrote:

Well I think were probably going to be doing some digging at the Green to put in the station. I don't know anything about tunnelling, but that might require more extensive digging than putting in a tunnel machine. No? And they plan to put in a station on at least two levels (interconnector/metro).

You should take a read of the lastest RPA presentation to the joint committee

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=TRJ200 51027.xml&Node=H2&Page=4

They talk about the TBM and proceeding it on to Beechwood, Harolds Cross/Kimmage or just leaving it in the ground. If thats the case then there's a hell of a big amount of ancillary works needed in the launch shaft behind a TBM. St. Stephens Green couldnt cope. It should be continued on no doubt.

spacetweek

ApeXaviour wrote:

Riiight... and how would that help Lucan exactly? These two new stations north and south

As a long time (but no more!) resident of Lucan, I can tell you that the north and south DART stations will be useless for virtually everyone that lives in Lucan.

The north station seems close as the crow flies, but the road you'd need to use to get to it is winding, steep, and very dangerous with no footpaths. The only people within walking distance of it are the residents of Laraghcon, all of whom paid 400k+ for their houses and own Beemers. Don't see them traipsing up the boreen to the DART station any time soon.

The south station will be handy but is still too far (20-30 mins walk) from the majority of Lucan residents in the old part of the town. Everyone in old Lucan, Ballyowen, and Ronanstown are out of walking distance of any theoretical station on either DART line.

A Luas line is the only reasonable solution. It will serve Ronanstown, Ballyowen and Esker, and will presumably penetrate north of the N4, though I don't see an obvious alignment - maybe through Griffeen/Vesey Park terminating at the Newcastle road. This is about a 5-10 min walk for virtually any Lucanian.

It's unfortunate that the two mainlines that pass Lucan were both built too far away to be of any use for the village centre, but it's too late to think about that now. We need a Luas to get us into the city - the existing buses, although plentiful, are gridlocked in rush hour despite bus lanes all over the place.

Victor

spacetweek wrote:

The north station seems close as the crow flies, but the road you'd need to use to get to it is winding, steep, and very dangerous with no footpaths. The only people within walking distance of it are the residents of Laraghcon, all of whom paid 400k+ for their houses and own Beemers. Don't see them traipsing up the boreen to the DART station any time soon.

Modest development is proposed on the north side of the river.

The south station will be handy but is still too far (20-30 mins walk) from the majority of Lucan residents in the old part of the town. Everyone in old Lucan, Ballyowen, and Ronanstown are out of walking distance of any theoretical station on either DART line.

It will be very useful for Adamstown and QBCs will link the rest of the area.

It's unfortunate that the two mainlines that pass Lucan were both built too far away to be of any use for the village centre,

Rather, Lucan (town) was expanded in the wrong places.

murphaph

The Lucan Luas to the city centre will be thrashed on speed by DART from Adamstown and Lucan North. FCC wish to construct a new road from Ongar to the M4 J2 interchange. If and when this opens, traffic from Lucan-D15 could be forced to use it and serius bus priority measures introduced on north-south routes through Lucan (including making the old main street bus only).

The road from Lucan village to Lucan North could be upgraded to include foot and cylce paths at modest cost.

The roads in 'new lucan' are, for the most part, wide enough to be upgraded to include 24 hr buslanes (FCC is doing this to similar 'suburban' roads in D15 to allow proper bus priority measures on north-south routes to interchange at Porterstown station, when it's built, SDCC could do the same!).

The Luas is snazzy and flash, but not the best solution (especially in tis incarnation-the original PFC incarnaion had some advantages because it didn't 'compete' with heavy rail to get to the city centre, it provided a new south city orbital route altogether!). The bus (including road widening and bus priority measures) & DART would be far better for most people in Lucan.

Ronanstown is within 5 mins walk of the railway. Look for Ronanstown Garda Station and see where it is!

dr zoidberg

Does anyone have a map of this planned development for Lucan north of the Liffey? Because the Maynooth line is certainly too far from Lucan as it is. Besides, surely any development there would be Leixlip east rather than Lucan (unless it was a very big development, it would not be close to the train line without being built just east of Leixlip).

The Kildare line would be good enough for the people in south Lucan and Ronanstown, but at the same time as said no line is near enough to the centre of the town.

Of course, the real problem would be a lack of park and ride facilities at train stations on the DART lines. The transport plan only has one of these planned at Liffey Valley and doesn't mention any other ones.

murphaph

dr zoidberg wrote:

Does anyone have a map of this planned development for Lucan north of the Liffey?

Here you go. The brown coloured area is zoned for residential. It is actually walkable to the Maynooth line which sweeps south from Clonsilla (the dark green stretch) but if you didn't want to walk you could cycle or take a feeder bus.

Incidentaly, you can also see the planned road from Ongar o the M4 J2. It's the dashed grey line running roughly north-south at the western side of the map. Traffic could be diverted to this road and away from Lucan Village (legally enforced!) and buses could have free reign through Lucan's north-south routes linking the railway stations.

dr zoidberg wrote:

The Kildare line would be good enough for the people in south Lucan and Ronanstown, but at the same time as said no line is near enough to the centre of the town.

Most people don't live in the old village of Lucan which is actually pretty small and will be dwarfed by Adamstown. Again, feeder buses from the village to the two stations could be provided. Proper bus priority measures would have to be provided, up to and including banning cars from the Ulster Bank round to Courtneys.

dr zoidberg wrote:

Of course, the real problem would be a lack of park and ride facilities at train stations on the DART lines. The transport plan only has one of these planned at Liffey Valley and doesn't mention any other ones.

You're completely missing the point. It's not to provide P&R for areas like Lucan rather to provide a reliable, quality bus feed into the heavy rail network. That's how it's done elsewhere and encouraging people to clog up the streets of Lucan to get to a station which is maybe only a mile away is nonsensical.

spacetweek

dr zoidberg wrote:

Does anyone have a map of this planned development for Lucan north of the Liffey?

Try here

It's very modest. It's totally the wrong size - too small to be of any use providing numbers for the new DART station to the north, but still big enough to worsen already terrible traffic in Lucan village! This development was very controversial when it was under construction.

dr zoidberg wrote:

surely any development there would be Leixlip east rather than Lucan

Good point. Leixlip north Arrow station (Confey) has loads of vacant land all around it. I can't understand why they aren't aiming to develop Leixlip further north, they could easily stay within the station catchment.


Remember that Lucan Luas is about way more than Lucan. As well as being for parts of the town inaccessible to buses and unsuitable for QBCs (e.g. Esker and the village), it's also aimed at south Palmerstown and Ballyfermot as well as providing a southside counterpart to the Red Line along the northern quays, completing the quays loop.

Victor

spacetweek wrote:

Leixlip north Arrow station (Confey) has loads of vacant land all around it. I can't understand why they aren't aiming to develop Leixlip further north, they could easily stay within the station catchment.

Double edged sword. the railway line forms the northern boundary of the town, breaching it risks expanding the town ad infinitum. That said, a small dense pocket of mixed development could be put in place.

dr zoidberg

Yeah the way the town has developed it almost looks well planned. Then you look at the lack of facilities and realise that it wasn't.

My problem is that, according to Kildare Co. Co. the town is supposed to expand to a population of 25000 in the next ten years (pop. was 15000 in 2002) but the Confey side has expanded to its limits along the railway line (and that land you can see on the west of the map link is a public park), the west side (Gleneaston) has also developed to its limit because land past the Celbridge Interchange is zoned for industrial and retail development, so there seems to be little choice if the town is to expand other than crossing the Dublin border. The natural place for housing development would be past the canal on the north and north east sides of the town.

Anyway back on topic, the Luas is badly needed for Lucan. My comment about P&R facilities was however a general comment rather than specifically for the Lucan North station - there is a serious lack of them. Although it would make much more sense for a bus to and from the station along the planned road.

It is walkable from the development to the proposed station - but I can tell you, I have walked along the St Catherine's Park paths on the left, and it takes much longer to walk than it looks on the map.

markpb

murphaph wrote:

If and when this opens, traffic from Lucan-D15 could be forced to use it and serius bus priority measures introduced on north-south routes through Lucan (including making the old main street bus only).

Assuming T21 goes ahead and is actually completed, does anyone actually believe that feeder buses and "serious bus priority measures" will actually happen?

Perhaps I'm cynical but DB call the 103/104 Dart feeder buses and any bus priority measures have either been half-assed (most of the QBCs) or dysfunctional (bus priority lane at the junction of Malahide Road/Collins Avenue).

BrianD

ApeXaviour wrote:

Riiight... and how would that help Lucan exactly? These two new stations north and south (they're upgrading the existing luas lines as it is, if you'd paid attention) are not as needed as much as an easier commute from Lucan. With a population of 40,000 set to double in the next 10 years, think about it.. :rolleyes:

It's a complete joke..

eh? How would a heavy rail station north and south of the town help? How do you think!!!! A lot better than a little tram that will take at least 60 min to get into town. Local buses can provide transport to either station. This is how it works elsewhere in the world.

There are no Luas lines to Lucan and there is no upgrades on the existing Luas lines other than proposed extensions and the lengthening of trams on the Red line from 30 to 40m so I'm not sure what upgrade you refer to.

Trams are not the solution to Lucan's transport issues. A commuter rail station is.

dowlingm

Victor - re Leixlip

I would contend the railway should form the central backbone of a town rather than being on the outskirts - a "from scratch" district plan creating a new town centre with the northern new town designed for bus transit from the rail stations as hubs, cycle lanes and pedestrians from day one. All new development south of the line should be curtailed to redevelopment of brownfield sites.

Instead an orbital road (here linking to the M4 as the southern boundary) should be the de facto cut off point. It sounds like Leixlip's rail line is like the current DART - only one side has much of a catchment (although it's probably better than open sea). Looking at Google Earth with the "Dublin Transport" overlay it looks like Louisa Bridge at least has development on both sides but Confey is decidedly lopsided in its catchment.

spacetweek

Victor wrote:

Double edged sword. the railway line forms the northern boundary of the town, breaching it risks expanding the town ad infinitum. That said, a small dense pocket of mixed development could be put in place.

It wouldn't be ad infinitum. That's what planning control is for.

BrianD

dowlingm wrote:

Victor - re Leixlip

I would contend the railway should form the central backbone of a town rather than being on the outskirts - a "from scratch" district plan creating a new town centre with the northern new town designed for bus transit from the rail stations as hubs, cycle lanes and pedestrians from day one. All new development south of the line should be curtailed to redevelopment of brownfield sites.

Instead an orbital road (here linking to the M4 as the southern boundary) should be the de facto cut off point. It sounds like Leixlip's rail line is like the current DART - only one side has much of a catchment (although it's probably better than open sea). Looking at Google Earth with the "Dublin Transport" overlay it looks like Louisa Bridge at least has development on both sides but Confey is decidedly lopsided in its catchment.

Blame the planning (and corruption for that). The railway has been there for a century or more (a guess). It's not unusual for a railway station to be on the outskirts of a town and local buses can sort that issue out.

dowlingm

BrianD

I agree it's not unusual but it's hardly optimal either...

Sarsfield

BrianD wrote:

Blame the planning (and corruption for that). The railway has been there for a century or more (a guess). It's not unusual for a railway station to be on the outskirts of a town and local buses can sort that issue out.

I don't know if it's true but the reason for train stations being on the outskirts of towns was explained to me once. Basically when there was trouble in any of the towns, the authorities (British) could send the troops in by train to quell disturbances. They could assemble outside the town before entering. Don't know if this is true or complete bull.

silverside

Sarsfield wrote:

I don't know if it's true but the reason for train stations being on the outskirts of towns was explained to me once. Basically when there was trouble in any of the towns, the authorities (British) could send the troops in by train to quell disturbances. They could assemble outside the town before entering. Don't know if this is true or complete bull.

sounds like complete pub talk to me Sarsfield