Why cant English people say 'Doherty'

deisedevil · 06-10-2005 03:44PM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

Originally Posted by deisedevil
. To say that we "chose" it or "adopted" however is pure ignorance on your part, it was forced on us and people died for merely speaking the irish language,teaching it, singing irish songs basically anything to do with irish culture was beaten out of the Irish so it is great that we still have anyone speaking the language or aware of Irish culture at all. It's not your fault this happened but the fact is it did happen. If you aren't aware of these things then don't speak about them!..

so organise a referrendum to have english removed as one of the national languages of the country.
personally, i dont care about why ireleand speaks english. its a fact that it does, thats all that matters.
but dont give us the 'you dont know, so dont speak about them' argument is silly. people are allowed to have an opinon onthese things. just because they dont agree with you does not mean that they are unaware of what has happened, as if being aware would change their minds in an instance.
some people dont care about 'the occupation'. its long gone, and its better to live in the world today, than to try and bring back some sort of old world that represents ireland of old.

hey, what have the romans ever done for us.

well, theres.....

I don't want english removed as one of our national languages and i never said i did, we're better of with it than without. why did you come out with that? I was reffering to the fact that it was said that we 'chose' or 'adopted' the english language, we didn't.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

but who are you to say how people should pronounce their own names?

i know a couple of people with the name Padrig,and they all pronounce them differently.
theres even a pad-rick.

are you saying they are all wrong?

If their name is padraig and they pronounce it po-rick as someone suggested then it is the incorrect pronounciation! but if they are happy pronouncing it and changing it to something slightly different then fair nuff, i never said anyone had to pronounce it a certain way and they don't have to but that doesn't mean it's the right way of saying it. If people reading the news etc. are going to use names then they should try and get the correct pronounciation of it and that is my point, padraig harrington doesn't call himself poraic!!

To be honest i think you took me up totally wrong on those.

Feenikusu · 06-10-2005 04:28PM

This may be a very stupid question, but....HOW are Doherty, Gallagher and Dun Laoghaire pronounced correctly?
I have no idea...I thought Doherty is pronounced as it is written, but I always wanted to know how Gallagher and Dun Laoghaire are pronounced. I've heard many different variants.

WhiteWashMan · 06-10-2005 04:39PM

deisedevil wrote:

If their name is padraig and they pronounce it po-rick as someone suggested then it is the incorrect pronounciation!

says you.

but what makes you think that you should dictate how someone pronounces something.
just becuase its not what you know, does not mean its right.

and just because you so its so, also does not mean you are right.

come back with this silly arguement when you become ireland dictator and can tell people what to do.

WhiteWashMan · 06-10-2005 04:45PM

MorningStar wrote:

We don't call England Southern Scotland.

simple, england is the predominant country, and there is no vast political differences between scotland and england.
and basically, the whole thing is called britain.

ireland and northern ireland are completely seperate countries.

MorningStar wrote:

I am not saying the ins and outs we are talking basics. To not know the name of the closest country is a level of ignorance that is not excusable. What misconceptions do you think irish people have? There are idiots who just hate but that is not a misconception.

really?
so you can pronounce all those welsh names with multiple L's etc?
whats the difference between ireland, southern ireland or eire?
it really depends on who you talk to. they all mean the same thing.
i know people in dublin who dont know where letterkenny is.
hell, i know people in dublin that dont know where dophins barn is!
i know people that think bray is in country dublin!

how about ignorance of your own country? is it really that surprising that people dont care about the country next door?

as for misconceptions, how about the fact that many irish people think that ireland was invaded by protestants?

Mr.Nice Guy · 06-10-2005 04:50PM

They can't pronounce 'Moran' properly either. They say it like it's 'Mur-Ran'.

Does my head in...

deisedevil · 06-10-2005 04:50PM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

says you.

but what makes you think that you should dictate how someone pronounces something.
just becuase its not what you know, does not mean its right.

and just because you so its so, also does not mean you are right.

come back with this silly arguement when you become ireland dictator and can tell people what to do.

Lmao, why do ya keep saying i am trying to dictate how people pronounce it, i'm not and never said they have to pronounce it a certain way, read over my last post ffs!

There is a name padraig and another name which is padraic. two different names with two different pronounciations. But like i said none of that matters, people can pronounce it however they want but the original pronounciations of both above were paw-draig and paw-raic.
Not porrick as someone suggested for padraig, that's where a lot of people get confused with it, theres so many different variations on the name.

jaggeh · 06-10-2005 04:52PM

it might have something to do with the irish spelling maybe?
dochartaigh?

Enii · 06-10-2005 04:54PM

i know someone called Ciaran who was waiting on a bench outside an interview room in Sydney, Australia. when the interview came out he said "OK Siren is next". Everyone just looked at each other. Wehn the interviewer called out "Siren plus family name" a 2nd time, Ciaran realised that he was actually Siren!!!!

Femelade · 06-10-2005 04:59PM

i remember being in a hospital waiting room, and the dr. who was irish, came out and started to call my name but couldnt pronounce it, its an irish spelt name, then a student dr. came out to help him pronounce it and he was like indian or paki or something and he said it perfectly first go.

wierd.

sceptre · 06-10-2005 05:00PM

magpie wrote:

Why can't Irish people pronounce Thames?

Given that Thames, like Thomas and thyme, is supposed to be said as if the th- is just a t- (they're the three notable exceptions to the general rule) I would have thought that Irish people would tend to pronounce it perfectly well as a rule. I've no idea why some newbie TV announcers insist on saying it with a th-. Or why some people will pronounce it thaymes like those people in Connecticut who pronounce the name of their local river thus (just like people living in Norwich, Vermont, though one can apparently tell how long someone's been living there by how they pronounce it).

I can forgive anyone for not getting Marylebone right though. Londoners tend to call it Marleybone though a real local just calls it something like m'bun. Ayrshire apparently has about 17 different pronounciations all reasonably locally used and let's not get started on Featherstonehaugh.

So what's wrong with the way Irish types say "Thames" then?

Endurance Man · 06-10-2005 05:03PM

So what's wrong with the way Irish types say "Thames" then?

Nothing is wrong with the way the irish say it, just like there is nothing wrong with the way british say Doherty. This thread is making no sense, and i notice that the OP has vanished to, perhaps a fire starter :rolleyes: .

nesf · 06-10-2005 05:08PM

deisedevil wrote:

What you talking bout?? The irish for patrick is padraig and IT IS pronounced paw-drig!!! end of story. a lot of people get that wrong in fairness though. like in england they say Paw-rick Harrington and that's kinda what this thread is about, the way some English people pronounce Irish names differently.

Eh, no. The name Padraig/Pádraig is pronounced quite differently in different provinces in Ireland. Read a good paper on it ages ago, it was mostly put down to different evolutions of the latin root in the different dialects of Irish.

The c/ck ending was generally found in Connemara iirc. The more common pronounciation was found originally in Munster.

Whether you look at them as different names or not is a moot point tbh. They both descended from the same root and are used interchangeably from area to area.

I'll try to dig up that paper for you.

grumpytrousers · 06-10-2005 05:18PM

Sceptre wrote:

I can forgive anyone for not getting Marylebone right though

Indeed. Not to mention the way most people who aren't Londoners also can't pronounce Holborn (silent L) or Southwark (silent W)...

It's funny. I made those mistakes (repeatedly in the case of Holborn - in fact I continued out of sheer bloody mindedness. Saying SouthWark was just too much of a mouthful) and never got chided by my co-workers for being ignorant of how these things were pronounced. Tolerant little sh!ts...
...:D

cournioni · 06-10-2005 05:21PM

Even more to the point, anyone notice how English people cannot pronounce "a" at the end of a word/name. Prime examples:

Nirvana = Nirvanerr
America = Americerr
Maradona = Maradonerr

deisedevil · 06-10-2005 05:24PM

nesf wrote:

Eh, no. The name Padraig/Pádraig is pronounced quite differently in different provinces in Ireland. Read a good paper on it ages ago, it was mostly put down to different evolutions of the latin root in the different dialects of Irish.

The c/ck ending was generally found in Connemara iirc. The more common pronounciation was found originally in Munster.

Whether you look at them as different names or not is a moot point tbh. They both descended from the same root and are used interchangeably from area to area.

I'll try to dig up that paper for you.

That'd be great, would like to see it. Like you said the more common pronounciation was found in munster and i'm from a gaeltacht in munster so anyone i know who spells it pádraig or padraig pronounces it paw-draig. It came to ireland from the word patricius which is latin but the irish had problems with it and used Coithric as there was no p in the irish langusge at the time. the d followed by r in the irish language can often mean that the d is left out or not sounded. but the names padraig and pádraig are the same word but the fada over the a is left out because of there being no fada in the english language. the name padraic or pádraic is another variation of what started off as patricius. That's what i was saying, pádraig harrington is not paw-rick. pádraig and pádraic came from the same word but both sound different due to the original being written and pronounced in different parts of the country.

magpie · 06-10-2005 05:38PM

So what's wrong with the way Irish types say "Thames" then?

As you point out its mainly a newsreader/mucker-only phenomenon, but hearing it pronounced "thames" rather than "tames" gets my back up as its clearly an overcompensation for being aware of the stereotypical "oirish" inability to pronouce th-es properly, Viz: dis, dat, dese and dose.

Other culprits are pronouncing roundabout "rindabite", Gardai "Gordy", DART "dort" and father "forther".

All stems from muckers ashamed of their roots and trying to talk like city folk but making a mess of it.

eth0_ · 06-10-2005 05:47PM

It's not because they're idiots, it's because of the way language has been programmed into their brains, to put it bluntly.

It's similar to how chinese people can't pronounce the work 'rice' as 'rice'.

nesf · 06-10-2005 05:49PM

deisedevil wrote:

That'd be great, would like to see it. Like you said the more common pronounciation was found in munster and i'm from a gaeltacht in munster so anyone i know who spells it pádraig or padraig pronounces it paw-draig. It came to ireland from the word patricius which is latin but the irish had problems with it and used Coithric as there was no p in the irish langusge at the time. the d followed by r in the irish language can often mean that the d is left out or not sounded. but the names padraig and pádraig are the same word but the fada over the a is left out because of there being no fada in the english language. the name padraic or pádraic is another variation of what started off as patricius. That's what i was saying, pádraig harrington is not paw-rick. pádraig and pádraic came from the same word but both sound different due to the original being written and pronounced in different parts of the country.

To an extent I agree, but tbh I'd consider Padraic and Padraig to be equivilant them just being different dialectal pronounciations of the same name in essence.

It is more difficult when there isn't a "correct" dialect though. I know that I am called "Padraic" in the Connemara but "Padraig" down here. I know I grew up listening to the munster pronounciation so I think of it as my name but it doesn't make the two different names. Just different pronounciations.

There's also more than two pronounciations for the name anyways. Even Cork and Kerry pronounciations can differ depending on the area you're in, as I'm sure you know.

MorningStar · 06-10-2005 06:10PM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

simple, england is the predominant country, and there is no vast political differences between scotland and england.
and basically, the whole thing is called britain.

ireland and northern ireland are completely seperate countries.

No they are not, what makes your think Northern Ireland is a country? Scotland has it's own parliment and England doesn't have a scotish national party as far as I know.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

really?
so you can pronounce all those welsh names with multiple L's etc?
whats the difference between ireland, southern ireland or eire?
it really depends on who you talk to. they all mean the same thing.
i know people in dublin who dont know where letterkenny is.
hell, i know people in dublin that dont know where dophins barn is!
i know people that think bray is in country dublin!

how about ignorance of your own country? is it really that surprising that people dont care about the country next door?

as for misconceptions, how about the fact that many irish people think that ireland was invaded by protestants?

No I can't use all the correct Whesh names but I can name the state and they can't plus that is local detailed knowledge. Southern Ireland is not a country, Ireland is an Island and Eire is the countries(state) name in Irish.
Just because some Irish people are ignorant does not excuse others. We aren't talking about just the lower educated people in England we are talking a larger portion. If somebody was bombing my country for 30 years I'd try to figure out the basics.
I went ape with a US firm for asking me really stupid questions and giving me stupid answers to my requests. First they refered to Dublin as the UK, then Southern Ireland, mispelled my name, called me English, addressed the parcel to Britian,then another to the UK, mispelled my name, refered to me as a woman, paid me in sterling,mispelled my name again and called me a waoman. Now at the start I get the lack of knowledge but after that it was either intentional or stupidity. Incase youare wondering my first name is 4 letters long.
I get the general ignorance of the UK people but it is the media that drives me insane as they are meant to check details. I ,and have also heard English Proffesors, media commentators etc... say this, that the BBC intetionally mispronouce certain people's names,place etc... in full knowledge of correct pronunciation. There ar lot of people in the UK that hate the Irish and they aren't just mindless thugs.

magpie · 06-10-2005 06:13PM

the BBC intetionally mispronouce certain people's names,place etc... in full knowledge of correct pronunciation. There ar lot of people in the UK that hate the Irish and they aren't just mindless thugs.

Of course, its all part of their Black Ops Propaganda. :rolleyes:

deisedevil · 06-10-2005 06:17PM

nesf wrote:

To an extent I agree, but tbh I'd consider Padraic and Padraig to be equivilant them just being different dialectal pronounciations of the same name in essence.

It is more difficult when there isn't a "correct" dialect though. I know that I am called "Padraic" in the Connemara but "Padraig" down here. I know I grew up listening to the munster pronounciation so I think of it as my name but it doesn't make the two different names. Just different pronounciations.

There's also more than two pronounciations for the name anyways. Even Cork and Kerry pronounciations can differ depending on the area you're in, as I'm sure you know.

Ya i understand what your saying. Could it not be though that padraic was the connemara(connaught area in general) form of the original name and padraig was the munster form and if someone goes from munster to connemara they get it mixed up with their own form and just pronounce it as their own form of the original and vice versa.

grumpytrousers · 06-10-2005 06:22PM

magpie wrote:

Of course, its all part of their Black Ops Propaganda. :rolleyes:

Can't wait for the episode of Spooks when they go into this particular bit of foreign policy. I can imagine Colm Meaney popping up and telling 'em "Naw, ye want to say 'Dockerteehee' cos that really pi$$es them off, especially that gang that hang around on the internet"...

Laguna · 06-10-2005 06:30PM

Femmy wrote:

i remember being in a hospital waiting room, and the dr. who was irish, came out and started to call my name but couldnt pronounce it, its an irish spelt name, then a student dr. came out to help him pronounce it and he was like indian or paki or something and he said it perfectly first go.

wierd.

Wow, referring to a someone as a "paki", yet more racism.

Let's face it, all the Irish love having the boulder sized chip on their shoulder and revert to blaming the English for absolutely everything.

We've got such a **** government, ah sure, tis all the fault of the English

We're not gonna qualify for the world cup, ah sure, blame Mick McCarthy, sure didn't Roy Keane say he was an English **** after all.

deisedevil · 06-10-2005 06:33PM

MorningStar wrote:

No they are not, what makes your think Northern Ireland is a country? Scotland has it's own parliment and England doesn't have a scotish national party as far as I know.

No I can't use all the correct Whesh names but I can name the state and they can't plus that is local detailed knowledge. Southern Ireland is not a country, Ireland is an Island and Eire is the countries(state) name in Irish.
Just because some Irish people are ignorant does not excuse others. We aren't talking about just the lower educated people in England we are talking a larger portion. If somebody was bombing my country for 30 years I'd try to figure out the basics.
I went ape with a US firm for asking me really stupid questions and giving me stupid answers to my requests. First they refered to Dublin as the UK, then Southern Ireland, mispelled my name, called me English, addressed the parcel to Britian,then another to the UK, mispelled my name, refered to me as a woman, paid me in sterling,mispelled my name again and called me a waoman. Now at the start I get the lack of knowledge but after that it was either intentional or stupidity. Incase youare wondering my first name is 4 letters long.
I get the general ignorance of the UK people but it is the media that drives me insane as they are meant to check details. I ,and have also heard English Proffesors, media commentators etc... say this, that the BBC intetionally mispronouce certain people's names,place etc... in full knowledge of correct pronunciation. There ar lot of people in the UK that hate the Irish and they aren't just mindless thugs.

I can relate to that. I deal with people in England every day where i work and things can get very confusing with names etc. but something that seriously annoys and amazes me is the amount of people i come across who refer to Ireland being in the UK or calling me British is beyond belief. Some genuinely think that Ireland is still part of the UK or Britain but most just love doing it to have a go. I always give a laugh and tell them that we are not part of Britain anymore as we finally got free of it thank god,lol.

deisedevil · 06-10-2005 06:47PM

Laguna wrote:

Wow, referring to a someone as a "paki", yet more racism.

Let's face it, all the Irish love having the boulder sized chip on their shoulder and revert to blaming the English for absolutely everything.

We've got such a **** government, ah sure, tis all the fault of the English

We're not gonna qualify for the world cup, ah sure, blame Mick McCarthy, sure didn't Roy Keane say he was an English **** after all.

Lets face it, some English don't like the fact that they ruled many countries with an iron fist and some people in some countries are still annoyed over what happened. Not your fault but it happened, we're entitled to have a boulder of a chip on our shoulder if we want to and i am entitled to be annoyed with how my family were treated, however some idiots think there is a valid reason for hatred towards the current generation of english which is a bit pathetic.

robinph · 06-10-2005 06:48PM

The Irish do know a lot more about the UK than the other way round, but a lot of that will come from what TV channels and newspapers you are watching/ reading to get your news and entertainment from. People in the England couldn't care less about Ireland, as long as a few kegs of beer are sent over ocasionally and no bombs go off their not interested. But the Irish seemingly can't get enough of the UK soaps, football, celebs, big brother and other such rubbish, so its not really surprising which country knows more, and how to pronounce names of the other place.

06-10-2005 07:02PM

englander wrote:

What the hell are you doing watching 'DA BRIT' tv channels QUOTE]

Because they have entertaining shows such as Top Gear and Match of The Day,why else?

Alun · 06-10-2005 07:03PM

robinph wrote:

The Irish do know a lot more about the UK than the other way round, but a lot of that will come from what TV channels and newspapers you are watching/ reading to get your news and entertainment from. People in the England couldn't care less about Ireland, as long as a few kegs of beer are sent over ocasionally and no bombs go off their not interested. But the Irish seemingly can't get enough of the UK soaps, football, celebs, big brother and other such rubbish, so its not really surprising which country knows more, and how to pronounce names of the other place.

I'd disagree. I know a lot of Irish people who apparently haven't got a clue with regard to the whole England/Scotland/Wales, Britain, British Isles, Great Britain, UK thing. I've even had some tw@t in a government department seriously trying to tell me that my nationality was "English" and not "British" FFS!

And as for mis-pronunciation of place names, you only have to listen to any football reports on the TV or radio here (Birming-ham, Sunder-land, Middles-burrow etc., etc.) to know that it isn't all a one-way street

FatherTed · 06-10-2005 07:39PM

Who are we to tell someone that the way they pronounce their name is incorrect. Take Tim Cahill for example, in Austrailia I'm sure he and his family pronounce it "Kay-Hill", not like the Irish "Ca-hill". So then a commentator should respect that. If someone calls him "Ca-hill" instead of "Kay-hill", they are incorrect. Such as with me, I moved to the US about 13 years ago. My first name is Martin and they don't pronounce the "T" that much more like a silent T so I was called "Mar-In". I continually correct then telling them I am "Mar-Tin". Most people get it but at this stage I'm tired of correcting people all the time.

One of the biggest battle I had was with my mother-in-law who is a yank and they moved to a new house about 2 years ago on a street called Dolphin Cove Quay. They had no idea what a Quay is, I guess it is not a common term here. Sure enough they were pronouncing it "Qu-way". It took a long time to convince them it was "key".

As for us Irish, it is not a dialect if we say "Da time is tree-tirty-tree". Is is poor annunciation.

robinph · 06-10-2005 07:45PM

Alun wrote:

I'd disagree. I know a lot of Irish people who apparently haven't got a clue with regard to the whole England/Scotland/Wales, Britain, British Isles, Great Britain, UK thing. I've even had some tw@t in a government department seriously trying to tell me that my nationality was "English" and not "British" FFS!

And as for mis-pronunciation of place names, you only have to listen to any football reports on the TV or radio here (Birming-ham, Sunder-land, Middles-burrow etc., etc.) to know that it isn't all a one-way street

Agreed, the Irish do seem to get a bit confused as to the difference between England and Britain, although they do seem to know what Scotland and Wales are more often. The splitting of some place names into two words does annoy me a bit though.

Why cant English people say 'Doherty'

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