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Legalisation of prostitution?

  • 02-10-2005 5:20pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 131 ✭✭


    whadaya reckon, would it bring all the pervs into ireland or would it free us from the shackles of 1950s catholicism?


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Tomlowe wrote:
    whadaya reckon, would it bring all the pervs into ireland or would it free us from the shackles of 1950s catholicism?
    More importantly would it free those women trafficked here to 'work' in the sex 'industry' by the scum of the earth, human trafficking pimp ba$tards. Legalise it, and regulate it. The criminals can be removed from the equation then and the exchequer ould receive VAT and income tax from the newly legalised and regulated industry.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,537 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Prostitution is legal in Ireland. Cartain activities associated with prostitution are illegal - pimping, kerb crawing, etc.

    PS Read the charter.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,314 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    murphaph wrote:
    The criminals can be removed from the equation then
    Actually, they'd still be there, they'd just go for another niche, such as younger women, possibly underaged, or those imported from abroad.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,730 ✭✭✭✭simu


    Tomlowe wrote:
    whadaya reckon, would it bring all the pervs into ireland or would it free us from the shackles of 1950s catholicism?

    Well, forget about these "shackles" you refer to. They've pretty much been removed by now and there are valid arguments for not allowing prostitution that do not stem from any form of Catholicism at all. As for whether I agree with these or not... well, post up your own opinion first!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 131 ✭✭Tomlowe


    Victor, what parts of it are currently legal? I'd just assumed it was all illegal.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,659 ✭✭✭✭dahamsta


    the_syco wrote:
    Actually, they'd still be there, they'd just go for another niche, such as younger women, possibly underaged, or those imported from abroad.
    There would be less of an opportunity for them though, the market would be smaller and their activities would be "more illegal", and therefore more likely to result in investigation and prosecution. No sympathy because "sure they're only feeding human nature".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,537 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Tomlowe wrote:
    Victor, what parts of it are currently legal? I'd just assumed it was all illegal.
    The actual prostitution bit where one adult gives another adult money in exchange for sex - in private.

    Some people call it marriage.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 142 ✭✭catholicireland


    whadaya reckon, would it bring all the pervs into ireland or would it free us from the shackles of 1950s catholicism?

    Wouldnt you say there are enough of them here already?
    How exactly would it free us from the shackles of 1950s catholicism?
    What in the name of god has allowing men to have sex with women who are most likely going to use the money for drugs and other shadey business got to do with the Church?!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 241 ✭✭defiantshrimp


    It should definitely be legalised. Fundamentally "Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign", what right has the government to ban an activity between consensual adults? But for those who don't accept this (those who would nanny us) the simple fact of the matter is that there will always be a demand for prostitutes and there will always be women who want to work as prostitutes. At the moment it costs a lot of money to keep prostitution illegal, we spend money policing and prosecuting those involved and also on health care from the transmission of disease through unsafe sex. If we legalise it, it will turn into a source of revenue for the government and also cut off a source of funds to criminals involved in prostitution. Furthermore we can regulate it to prevent both unsafe sex and also the trafficking of women and children into the industry. We have legalised pornography but not prostitution. It makes no sense. Prostitution has little negative externalities (it naturally has some) but the benefits outweigh the costs of it being legalised.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,469 ✭✭✭weeder


    i say legalise it as long as condoms are used every time and catholic ireland-some women have no choice because they cant get a normal job so use prostitution as a way to stay alive


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,537 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    It should definitely be legalised. Fundamentally "Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign", what right has the government to ban an activity between consensual adults?
    Please read posts 3 and 8 on this thread.

    Can I ask did you skip past them, ignore them or read them and decide to spout off misleading statements anyway?
    weeder wrote:
    i say legalise it as long as condoms are used every time
    Will we have a Garda hiding behind the [strike]bus stop[/strike], wardrobe with a camera to check?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭Maskhadov


    I would be against it because I think Sexually transmitted diseases would rise a lot and we would have lots of dodgy tourists over. Just look at holland, no thanks


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 142 ✭✭catholicireland


    what right has the government to ban an activity between consensual adults?

    What if that "activity" hurts or affects other people? Im not just talking about prostitution here.
    But for those who don't accept this (those who would nanny us)

    You say "those" as if they are a minority of Irish people. While in fact you and you opinion are in a small minority. I would expect a 90%+ oposition to this if you asked Irish people.
    Prostitution has little negative externalities (it naturally has some) but the benefits outweigh the costs of it being legalised.

    Rubbish. Prostitutes dont do what they do because they love sex, most do it because they are drug addicts.
    Such a legalisation would lower our society into a more immoral and destructive counrty. It would be a disaster, and there is no doubt that some of the support that can be read on this thread is from people who cannot get a woman and would love to be able to have sex without going to holland... ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    simu wrote:
    Well, forget about these "shackles" you refer to.

    How much extra is it with the shackles? What about handcuffs, whips etc.?:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    I would expect a 90%+ oposition to this if you asked Irish people.
    That's just your opinion and you've no facts presented here to support it, so in the context of this debate-it's worthless.
    Rubbish. Prostitutes dont do what they do because they love sex, most do it because they are drug addicts.
    How do you know? In countries like Germany, Holland & Belgium, where prostitution is legal and regulated by government, the prostitutes must pass STD testing to be allowed hold on to their licences. No bothel owner would hire someone without certification and no punter would logically play russian roullette with a crack-whore on the side of the street to save a few quid.
    Such a legalisation would lower our society into a more immoral and destructive counrty. It would be a disaster, and there is no doubt that some of the support that can be read on this thread is from people who cannot get a woman and would love to be able to have sex without going to holland... ;)
    Good argument, you should take up debating professionally :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Hagar wrote:
    How much extra is it with the shackles? What about handcuffs, whips etc.?:D
    Haha classic! :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 142 ✭✭catholicireland


    How do you know?

    Because I have watched tv and read newspapers. Its common knowledge and you know it.
    Good argument, you should take up debating professionally

    Well its true.


    The best bit about this silly arguement is that this sick business will never be allowed in Ireland. Thank God. Because we live in a counrty where people are moral and are not warped liberals like some on here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    eh, most of the people on here live in Ireland!

    Out of curiosity CatholicIreland, would you allow prostitution if it resulted in a united Ireland? or would you give up a united Ireland to keep prostitution illegal?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,730 ✭✭✭✭simu


    But for those who don't accept this (those who would nanny us) the simple fact of the matter is that there will always be a demand for prostitutes and there will always be women who want to work as prostitutes.

    Well, is this a fact? OK, there are probably always people around whose sexual needs are not being met but atm, most people in Ireland would not consider going to a prostitute when they find themselves in such a situation. If prostitution were to become more mainstream and acceptable, you would have a larger market for it because it wouldn't be seen as sleazy and sad anymore. I'm not convinced this would be for the good of Irish society though.

    In theory, it shouldn't be a problem that one person pays another to have sex with them but laws aren't enacted in a blank, ideal state. Attitudes to sex and prostitution are certainly not neutral and are often quite negative at the moment and it would be hard to get rid of this overnight and make prostitutio a career choice like any other.

    (I'm actually undecided still on the question, though!)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    You say "those" as if they are a minority of Irish people. While in fact you and you opinion are in a small minority. I would expect a 90%+ oposition to this if you asked Irish people.

    Yes, the Irish are well known for making decisions like this on the "I don't want to do it, hence no-one should be allowed" basis.

    As befits your username, its an indication of the continuing hold the Catholic church has on the Irish "mentality" in terms of the success of its telling us what to do.
    Rubbish. Prostitutes dont do what they do because they love sex, most do it because they are drug addicts.
    Interestingly, that only seems to hold true with illegal prostitution.

    Legal prostitution often relies on the good ol' financial trap. Take women from Eastern Europe and other "lesser" economies, supply housing etc at exorbitant rates, ultimately resulting in them simply not being able to afford to leave their jobs....especially when their employer holds (real or fictitious) threats over their head like their work permit.
    Such a legalisation would lower our society into a more immoral and destructive counrty.
    Yeah. Just look at Switzerland. Land of despots. Gone to the dogs utterly ever since they legalised it.
    It would be a disaster,
    For Catholic Ireland, perhaps. For the people of Ireland....I very much doubt it, unless it was criminally mismanaged.

    jc


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 241 ✭✭defiantshrimp


    Victor wrote:
    Please read posts 3 and 8 on this thread. Can I ask did you skip past them, ignore them or read them and decide to spout off misleading statements anyway?

    I had indeed read your posts, but lest we be pedantic about it I think the industry should be legalised and regulated. That means including pimping and the other things associated with prostitution. Sorry if I made to many assumptions about what I meant by prostitution.
    Maskhadov wrote:
    I would be against it because I think Sexually transmitted diseases would rise a lot and we would have lots of dodgy tourists over. Just look at holland, no thanks

    Prostitution is legal in many countries (Holland and the state of Nevada for example) and there has not been a rise in the level of STD’s. And we already have a large amount of dodgy tourists! A few more can’t hurt
    What if that "activity" hurts or affects other people? Im not just talking about prostitution here.

    It depends on the activity naturally and what effect it has on others. But we are talking about prostitution here which I believe has only small repercussions for the rest of society.
    You say "those" as if they are a minority of Irish people. While in fact you and you opinion are in a small minority. I would expect a 90%+ oposition to this if you asked Irish people.

    OOO let’s play the made up statistics game! 99% of people support legalised and regulated prostitution! The majority of the public think you are wrong! How do I know…. I can “feel” the public’s support behind me.

    Stop making up s***e and actually contribute to the debate. On a more serious note even if a majority are against it, the point of a debate is to persuade people and enlighten them to the best course of action. Once upon a time people would not support the legalisation of homosexuality. Things change.
    Rubbish. Prostitutes dont do what they do because they love sex, most do it because they are drug addicts.


    Did I say that prostitutes love what they do? Most people don’t love their jobs, according to your wisdom should we ban all those jobs? Maybe you can make up some statistics to kickstart the “ban your job” campaign.
    Such a legalisation would lower our society into a more immoral and destructive counrty. It would be a disaster

    You are committing a logical fallacy by arguing from adverse consequences. Simply saying “You can’t legalise prostitution, it would destroy the world!” is not an argument. It is baloney. Enlighten us to how legalising prostitution would “lower our society into a more immoral and destructive country”? Is Holland an immoral and destructive society? Germany? What about Belgium? Maybe Switzerland? No? Pehaps the USA?
    there is no doubt that some of the support that can be read on this thread is from people who cannot get a woman and would love to be able to have sex without going to holland... ;)

    When all else fails resort to personal attacks! You are some fantastic debater!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    Making prostitution illegal is a fundamental abuse of human rights, based on the fact that it is a victimless crime.

    We need laws that protect societies members from each other, not to regulate their behaviour and thoughts. If a crime has been committed, then you should be able to produce a victim for that crime, if not it's not a crime.

    As for the harm it does, it is a bizarre situation where we criminalise and punish people to 'protect them from harm'.

    Wheras the actual sex act and money changing hands may be technically legal, any attempts to offer or procure sex for money is illegal http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993_20.html making prostitution effectively illegal in Ireland. So random people who bump into each other in private property can have sex for money as long as neither one of them asks or offers. Seems like only psychics can be legal johns or prostitues.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 223 ✭✭AndyWarhol


    It should definitely be legalised. Fundamentally "Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign", what right has the government to ban an activity between consensual adults? But for those who don't accept this (those who would nanny us) the simple fact of the matter is that there will always be a demand for prostitutes and there will always be women who want to work as prostitutes.

    Well if you apply your 'individual is sovereign' logic, then why not allow sex with children?, sex with animals?, stealing?, murder? etc.. You are confusing 'nanny' with law. The legalisation of prositution would, in my opinion, be a mockery to the woman's body and would permit an unhealthy flow of underground seediness within society.
    At the moment it costs a lot of money to keep prostitution illegal, we spend money policing and prosecuting those involved and also on health care from the transmission of disease through unsafe sex. If we legalise it, it will turn into a source of revenue for the government and also cut off a source of funds to criminals involved in prostitution. Furthermore we can regulate it to prevent both unsafe sex and also the trafficking of women and children into the industry. We have legalised pornography but not prostitution. It makes no sense. Prostitution has little negative externalities (it naturally has some) but the benefits outweigh the costs of it being legalised.

    You go on as if legalising prostitution would have few 'negative externalities' as you call it. Have you ever been to Amsterdam? I have, and I was absolutely appaled by the breakdown of morals in that society.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 142 ✭✭catholicireland


    I think its disturbing that some people on here think the whole sex/prostitute world is a great thing and its misunderstood. Its illegal for a start, and wrong. How would you like it if your mother of sister was a prostitute?
    Did I say that prostitutes love what they do? Most people don’t love their jobs, according to your wisdom should we ban all those jobs? Maybe you can make up some statistics to kickstart the “ban your job” campaign.

    I didnt say we should keep it illegal just because these women and girls dont like what they do. It is a by-product of crime. Women sell their bodies to pay drug dealers. The whole thing is sick and alot of the men who go to these prostitutes, some are rapeists and other scum who would love this to be legalised.

    By the way, as a matter of interest, would any of ye actually use the service of a prostitute?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭hairyheretic


    AndyWarhol wrote:
    You go on as if legalising prostitution would have few 'negative externalities' as you call it. Have you ever been to Amsterdam? I have, and I was absolutely appaled by the breakdown of morals in that society.

    Morality is by definition a personal thing, and each individual is going to have differing oppinions as to whether or not something is right or wrong.

    What you consider immoral may not bother others in the slightest.

    Personality I wouldn't have a problem with legalised prostitution. I believe that if you legalised it you would remove (much) of the criminal element from it, making it safer for all involved.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    I think its disturbing that some people on here think the whole sex/prostitute world is a great thing and its misunderstood. Its illegal for a start, and wrong. How would you like it if your mother of sister was a prostitute?
    How do you get from caring for your mother or sister to arguing that she should be put in jail, which is what in effect criminalising prostitution is saying.

    The state (and advocacy groups) have every right to encourage and educate people away from prositution, give them other options and protect them from harm. However giving someone a criminal record and imprisoning them seems a poor way to show you care for them, and in many ways traps them into their chosen profession.

    When something is criminalised (for example see alcohol prohibition in the US) an underworld will form around it's supply, but this is a response to the criminisation not to the underlying supply/demand.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 142 ✭✭catholicireland


    However giving someone a criminal record and imprisoning them seems a poor way to show you care for them, and in many ways traps them into their chosen profession.

    Care? Why should we care for people who break the law? Prostitutes are not dumb, they know its illegal, they know its wrong and filthy but they do it because they are hooked on herion or crack cocaine.
    When something is criminalised (for example see alcohol prohibition in the US) an underworld will form around it's supply, but this is a response to the criminisation not to the underlying supply/demand.

    You could say the same about illegal drugs which destroy peoples lives.

    I dont see why people would want this legalised anyway.? Some people on here are speaking about it so passionatley as if they have something to gain by it being legal!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭hairyheretic


    I didnt say we should keep it illegal just because these women and girls dont like what they do.

    I don't particularly like my job either (I work on a helldesk). Should we make that illegal as well?
    It is a by-product of crime.

    No, its a by-product of demand. If it wasn't wanted, it wouldn't be there.

    Alcohol is bad for you. Cigarettes are bad for you. Both are addictive drugs, and can lead to medical conditions too. Both have been the focus of criminal activity.

    Do you see either of those being banned any time soon?
    Women sell their bodies to pay drug dealers.

    I expect some do, but not all. I recall reading a story a while back about a journalist who went to do a story at the Bunny Ranch in Nevada, and liked it so much she decided to stay and start working there.

    I somehow doubt paying for drugs was her reason for that.
    The whole thing is sick

    In your oppinion.
    and alot of the men who go to these prostitutes, some are rapeists and other scum who would love this to be legalised.

    Do you have any kind of referencable statistics to back that up?
    By the way, as a matter of interest, would any of ye actually use the service of a prostitute?

    I'm married, so the wife might object :)

    I don't have the need for it myself, but I don't see it as being a particular problem either.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,537 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    By the way, as a matter of interest, would any of ye actually use the service of a prostitute?
    Wouldn't a more pertinant question be "Would any of ye actually become a prostitute?" (no need to answer folks).


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,907 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    If ye all want to look at a recent example of a country with almost exactly the same size population that recently legalised prostitution, look at New Zealand.
    Prostitution was legalised there in 2003.
    The country hasn't fallen to it's knees in a quagmire of seedy corrupt and perverted sex tourists either AFAIK.LINK


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    Care? Why should we care for people who break the law? Prostitutes are not dumb, they know its illegal, they know its wrong and filthy but they do it because they are hooked on herion or crack cocaine.
    So if you don't care about these people (therefore any harm they do to themselves is irrelevent) please explain why a person offering sex for money should be illegal.
    You could say the same about illegal drugs which destroy peoples lives.
    Ahhh, so we should throw drug addicts in jail to stop them destroying their lives. A stay in a sh*thole like the joy and a prison record is exactly what they need to straighten themselves out.

    You seem not to have fully thought this through, do you care about these people or not?

    Many things (like extreme sports) destroy people's lives. People should be protected and educated away from self harm, not criminalised for it,
    I dont see why people would want this legalised anyway.? Some people on here are speaking about it so passionatley as if they have something to gain by it being legal!
    Therefore by your own argument you have something to gain by it remaining illegal? Perhaps you run a small pornography distribution company and are worried at the effect that legalising prostitution might have on your business.

    Prostitution has been around longer than our current drug problems. If you are of a certain sex and age prostitution is a viable alternative to poverty. Now a society that no one needed to resort to prostitution to escape poverty would be a wonderful place, and probably one with very little prostitution (but there would still be some!).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Interesting that every reference to prostitutes has been in the female. Men can be prostitutes too ya know.

    <philip waits for tirade of religious outrage>

    CatholicIreland-your reference to rapists is pathetic. If anything, prostitutes provide a way for certain individuals to have sex without raping people. Think about it.

    I wonder how much tax revenue is lost because it is not legal.

    Germany had a dilemna recently when legislation was passed that forced companies with more than a certain number of employees to take on a certain number of apprentices each year. Technically, prostitution is a trade in german law apparently and they had to jig the legislation so large brothel owners would be exempt from the new law.

    Just for fun, a friend of mine lives in an apartment block right across from a 7 storey brothel called 'Pascha' in Cologne. It's pretty famous in Germany cos it's huge!

    Here's a good story


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    murphaph wrote:
    Here's a good story

    I like the line that 'Stefan, Pascha's very own midget, kept the tally chart'!

    :D:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,537 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    murphaph wrote:
    Here's a good story
    Yore ma is so ugly she had to pay people to have sex with her! :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    Tomlowe wrote:
    whadaya reckon, would it bring all the pervs into ireland or would it free us from the shackles of 1950s catholicism?

    IMO there is absolutely no reason why prostitution should be illegal. What's wrong with paying for sex? Nothing.

    And it doesn't degrade/whatever women. I know two prostitutes and they do it completely by choice. And they do not find it horrible.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,537 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    pH wrote:
    Wheras the actual sex act and money changing hands may be technically legal, any attempts to offer or procure sex for money is illegal http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993_20.html making prostitution effectively illegal in Ireland. So random people who bump into each other in private property can have sex for money as long as neither one of them asks or offers. Seems like only psychics can be legal johns or prostitues.
    Can you point to the specific piece that makes it illegal on private property?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    dublindude wrote:
    I know two prostitutes

    Now all you need is to meet a major figure in the Dublin underworld and an open minded priest, and you have all you need to become a Sunday World journo... ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,483 ✭✭✭✭daveirl


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭black_jack


    Care? Why should we care for people who break the law? Prostitutes are not dumb, they know its illegal, they know its wrong and filthy but they do it because they are hooked on herion or crack cocaine.

    Prostitution is called the worlds old profession for a reason. Theres murals advertising brothels in the ruins of Pompei, I suspect prostitution has been around since we developed barter.

    The suggestion that prostitution is directly and only directly based in response to the existance of two drugs which respectively have been roaming Ireland for 200 years and 10 years, is just laughable. The Monty was our red light disctrict when Joyce was a boy.
    You could say the same about illegal drugs which destroy peoples lives.

    You could say more about the legal drug alcohol which destroys more lives than all the illegal drugs combined. Should we ban that?
    I dont see why people would want this legalised anyway.? Some people on here are speaking about it so passionatley as if they have something to gain by it being legal!

    So tell me Catholic Ireland why do you oppose prostitution?

    Is it,

    A) that it locks women into a cycle of drugs, and exposes them to criminals, who get fat on the "back" of their labour

    B) that it spreads STDs?

    C) That prostitution is morally and ethically wrong

    If it's

    A) Well legalising it will allow regulation, women working in licenced tax paying brothels where they choose to work, and aren't forced and drug abuse isn't tolerated.

    B) Licenced brothels would have health and safety standards, prostitutes could insist on condoms and would have the law to back up their right

    C) Well maybe. Never having been or not feeling inclinded to sleep with a woman who I have to pay for the pleasure of doing so I am not a supporter of prostitution. However I am a pragamatist. Prostitute pre dates heroin and crack and your precious catholicism, and I suspect it will be around after all three die out, and therefore theres no point trying to outlaw what we've been doing since we figured out if we pay enough we get what we want.

    Do you find prostitutes offensive? Didn't Jesus allow his feet to be washed by a prostitute and not judge her? But love her?

    Don't you find a modicum of self loathing for a self righteous attitude of someone publically esposing a religion whose major tenant includes, "Let he is without sin cast the first stone"

    You remind me of those "Christians" who really need to be thumped incessantly over the head with a St James bible while I shout;


    HAVE. YOU. READ. THE. DAMN. THING!!!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 691 ✭✭✭Ajnag


    Speaking from experiance(not literally of course :p ), The continintal experiance has its positives in terms of regulation and safety not to mention the tax generated. Although there are some things id tend to worry about.

    First up, sex districts are sleazy ****holes, so any moves to legalise should have discreationary measures. Second would be regulation to prevent exposure of the industry to under 18's. Third would be to introduce drug testing such that any woman suspected to be working to feed a drug addiction would be offered treatment or refused a licence.

    Also, there should be a mandatory certification system for anyone who wish's to be a manager within the industry as well as regulations to set rules for the relationship between employee's and employers.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 241 ✭✭defiantshrimp


    Ajnag wrote:
    Speaking from experiance(not literally of course :p ), The continintal experiance has its positives in terms of regulation and safety not to mention the tax generated. Although there are some things id tend to worry about.

    First up, sex districts are sleazy ****holes, so any moves to legalise should have discreationary measures. Second would be regulation to prevent exposure of the industry to under 18's. Third would be to introduce drug testing such that any woman suspected to be working to feed a drug addiction would be offered treatment or refused a licence.

    Also, there should be a mandatory certification system for anyone who wish's to be a manager within the industry as well as regulations to set rules for the relationship between employee's and employers.

    A great idea. This would be a huge improvement over what we have today!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 223 ✭✭AndyWarhol


    black_jack wrote:
    Prostitution is called the worlds old profession for a reason. Theres murals advertising brothels in the ruins of Pompei, I suspect prostitution has been around since we developed barter.

    The suggestion that prostitution is directly and only directly based in response to the existance of two drugs which respectively have been roaming Ireland for 200 years and 10 years, is just laughable. The Monty was our red light disctrict when Joyce was a boy.

    Just because prostitution is the "world's oldest profession" doesn't mean it's right. You could equally argue that man has killed since they inhabited the earth, but one would struggle to find someone who thought killing another human was right. There is something in this country called morals, a status-quo on which our laws are based on.

    Most people in this country would not be practising christians and therefore one might ask where they get their sense of what is right and what is wrong? Inherently people know that christian (indeed islamic etc.) no-no's such as killing, stealing, adultery, violence etc. are wrong. Why is this? We might deny christian values, but really most law-abiding citizens are anonymous christians who look to the government to dictate what is right and what is wrong through the legal system.

    So I ask, from the point of view of morals, should it be permitted to allow women to go out and prostitute themselves for the pleasure of others? The psychological effect on the woman (indeed the marriages that would be destroyed from having such an anonymous outlet for men in society) is far greater than any percieved 'benefits' that you anticipate will come from prostitution.

    Now I think were we to put the question of whether we should legalise prostitution out for referendum, I'd say you would get a resounding no to such an idea.
    [/QUOTE]

    black_jack wrote:
    You could say more about the legal drug alcohol which destroys more lives than all the illegal drugs combined. Should we ban that?

    Well one can drink themselves to death and smoke themselves to death, but it is self-inflicted. Prostitution leaves emotional and psychological scars not just on the user but also on the victim. This is the key difference. Smoking used to inflict discomfort on others by means of passive smoking, this has now been addressed through our laws and is no longer the case thanks to the smoking ban.
    black_jack wrote:
    So tell me Catholic Ireland why do you oppose prostitution?
    That question comes across in a rather patronising tone. Catholic Ireland obviously has a strong moral base that completely opposes the proposition in question.
    black_jack wrote:
    Is it,

    A) that it locks women into a cycle of drugs, and exposes them to criminals, who get fat on the "back" of their labour

    B) that it spreads STDs?

    C) That prostitution is morally and ethically wrong

    If it's

    A) Well legalising it will allow regulation, women working in licenced tax paying brothels where they choose to work, and aren't forced and drug abuse isn't tolerated.

    B) Licenced brothels would have health and safety standards, prostitutes could insist on condoms and would have the law to back up their right

    C) Well maybe. Never having been or not feeling inclinded to sleep with a woman who I have to pay for the pleasure of doing so I am not a supporter of prostitution. However I am a pragamatist. Prostitute pre dates heroin and crack and your precious catholicism, and I suspect it will be around after all three die out, and therefore theres no point trying to outlaw what we've been doing since we figured out if we pay enough we get what we want.

    Do you find prostitutes offensive? Didn't Jesus allow his feet to be washed by a prostitute and not judge her? But love her?

    Don't you find a modicum of self loathing for a self righteous attitude of someone publically esposing a religion whose major tenant includes, "Let he is without sin cast the first stone"

    You remind me of those "Christians" who really need to be thumped incessantly over the head with a St James bible while I shout;

    HAVE. YOU. READ. THE. DAMN. THING!!!!!

    Well you obviously know it all and answer your own questions for yourself.

    Jesus allowed his feet to be washed by a prostitute, yes. Jesus welcomes all sinners before him. No matter what you have done, Jesus will always forgive.

    So what if somebody wants to make known his religous views? A tolerance which allows God as a private opinion but which excludes Him from public life, from the reality of the world and our lives, is not tolerance but hypocrisy.

    That comment about thumping someone over the head with a Bible is rather insulting. And even if he weren't to have read the Bible makes him no less a Catholic. You've probably got life all sussed for yourself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭hairyheretic


    AndyWarhol wrote:
    Just because prostitution is the "world's oldest profession" doesn't mean it's right. You could equally argue that man has killed since they inhabited the earth, but one would struggle to find someone who thought killing another human was right.

    If such were the case we wouldn't see any killing done. No murder, no war, no capital punishment. Given that we do see all of those, it doesn't seem like its that hard to find someone who thinks killing another human is right (or at least necessary).
    AndyWarhol wrote:
    There is something in this country called morals, a status-quo on which our laws are based on.

    I think that the law has just a little bit more behind it that a supposed set of morals.
    AndyWarhol wrote:
    Most people in this country would not be practising christians and therefore one might ask where they get their sense of what is right and what is wrong?

    Perhaps through realising that actions that do harm to others aren't good things? After all, if you do nasty things to someone else, what is to prevent them doing the same back to you?
    AndyWarhol wrote:
    Inherently people know that christian (indeed islamic etc.) no-no's such as killing, stealing, adultery, violence etc. are wrong. Why is this?

    Why are they equally considered wrong in other parts of the world where those religions are not historically fundamental to the development of the society?
    AndyWarhol wrote:
    We might deny christian values, but really most law-abiding citizens are anonymous christians who look to the government to dictate what is right and what is wrong through the legal system.

    I don't think so. Laws develop over time, based at least in part on older laws. Go back before christianity arrived here, and there are laws. Those are what formed the basis (however many times removed) for the laws of today. Whoever originated the first laws, however many millenia ago, wasn't using christianity as their basis for it.
    AndyWarhol wrote:
    So I ask, from the point of view of morals, should it be permitted to allow women to go out and prostitute themselves for the pleasure of others?

    If they are willing to do it, what gives you the right to prevent them? What gives you the right to impose your moral oppinion on anyone for anything?
    AndyWarhol wrote:
    The psychological effect on the woman (indeed the marriages that would be destroyed from having such an anonymous outlet for men in society) is far greater than any percieved 'benefits' that you anticipate will come from prostitution.

    Is that an oppinion, or do you have facts to back it up?
    AndyWarhol wrote:
    Now I think were we to put the question of whether we should legalise prostitution out for referendum, I'd say you would get a resounding no to such an idea.

    Given the debate that is ongoing here, with what I would assume would be a cross section of society, perhaps that resounding no is nowhere near as loud as you believe it to be.
    AndyWarhol wrote:
    So what if somebody wants to make known his religous views? A tolerance which allows God as a private opinion but which excludes Him from public life, from the reality of the world and our lives, is not tolerance but hypocrisy.

    No, it isn't. Your faith should be a personal thing, between you and whatever you choose to believe it. Inflicting it on others, who do not share it, and attempting to force them to follow your beliefs is wrong.

    But this probably isn't the right forum for a debate on religion and morality.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭black_jack


    AndyWarhol wrote:
    Just because prostitution is the "world's oldest profession" doesn't mean it's right.

    And I'm not saying is right it just means theres little point in trying to outlaw what has been standard practice in society since y'know, before society existed.
    You could equally argue that man has killed since they inhabited the earth, but one would struggle to find someone who thought killing another human was right. There is something in this country called morals, a status-quo on which our laws are based on.

    Yeah and er, prostitute isn't murder. Your logic isn't, the suggest you're making is paedohilia is justified, however concentiual sex between adults even if a financial transaction occurs to create this relationship doesn't equal murder. Your argument is like saying "people double parked in Medivial dublin doesn't that make it ok?"
    Most people in this country would not be practising christians and therefore one might ask where they get their sense of what is right and what is wrong? Inherently people know that christian (indeed islamic etc.)

    What does this wittering mean? What does there system of moral got to do with anything. We've had this conversation earlier when you couldn't defend your point about basic morality coming from christianity despite these societies having morality and systems of government similiar to christinaity but predating christian infulences.
    no-no's such as killing, stealing, adultery, violence etc. are wrong. Why is this? We might deny christian values, but really most law-abiding citizens are anonymous christians who look to the government to dictate what is right and what is wrong through the legal system.

    So if Abortion was legalised that'd be okay with you? Or Divorice is divorce okay.

    And How does killiing and violence equal prostitution?
    So I ask, from the point of view of morals, should it be permitted to allow women to go out and prostitute themselves for the pleasure of others? The psychological effect on the woman (indeed the marriages that would be destroyed from having such an anonymous outlet for men in society) is far greater than any percieved 'benefits' that you anticipate will come from prostitution.

    Okay the above is an opinion which states opinion as fact so I'll sure you'll using your proven track record you'll be able to support them.

    And My point is not celebrate or support prostitution but I've asked you to address the arguments, so are you opposed to better control of the trafficking of women, better health and safety standards for prostitutes, or taxation of income, or what?
    Now I think were we to put the question of whether we should legalise prostitution out for referendum, I'd say you would get a resounding no to such an idea.

    Uh huh and if you got a poll about whether we like puppies or not you'd get a resounding "NO". Suggesting the public at large will be opposed to prostitute makes a mockery of the simpsons burlsque house episode.
    Well one can drink themselves to death and smoke themselves to death, but it is self-inflicted. Prostitution leaves emotional and psychological scars not just on the user but also on the victim. This is the key difference.

    And the families of smokers and drunks? Those beaten by drunks and drunken violence. Are not the children and wives of drunkes also victims? Also, er isn't a single man meeting a prostitute, who isnt a drug addict, not under the thrall of a pimp, a harmless crime?

    Whats the difference?
    Smoking used to inflict discomfort on others by means of passive smoking, this has now been addressed through our laws and is no longer the case thanks to the smoking ban.
    And the family members and childrens living with smokers?
    That question comes across in a rather patronising tone.

    Just "rather"?. Note to self, must try harder.
    Catholic Ireland obviously has a strong moral base that completely opposes the proposition in question.

    Strong moral base=lack of coherant argument or logic.

    Hey you say potato, I say, you can't make a point.
    Well you obviously know it all and answer your own questions for yourself.

    Jesus allowed his feet to be washed by a prostitute, yes. Jesus welcomes all sinners before him. No matter what you have done, Jesus will always forgive.

    So the irony about holding people in contempt is just what? Look what are you? The last member of the cast of lost?
    Jesus allowed his feet to be washed by a prostitute, QED it's wrong to hold prostitutes in contempt.


    So what if somebody wants to make known his religous views? A tolerance which allows God as a private opinion but which excludes Him from public life, from the reality of the world and our lives, is not tolerance but hypocrisy.

    How about parading his status a catholic while stating beliefs that run contray with the philosophy of the new testmenant.
    That comment about thumping someone over the head with a Bible is rather insulting.

    Gosh, no!
    And even if he weren't to have read the Bible makes him no less a Catholic. You've probably got life all sussed for yourself.

    So lets me get this clear if he'd not read the word of god and understood it that'd not make him less of a catholic, one of the most absurdly dogmatic religions on this planet?!?

    I may not got life sorted but I can suss a paradox when I sees one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 223 ✭✭AndyWarhol


    black_jack wrote:
    And I'm not saying is right it just means theres little point in trying to outlaw what has been standard practice in society since y'know, before society existed.
    The fact is prostitution is outlawed. Why do you think that is? Because the majority of people say so. Why is this? Because something inside them tells them it is wrong. Why is this? Because people have fundamental morals; that is, to do what is right and good.
    black_jack wrote:
    Yeah and er, prostitute isn't murder. Your logic isn't, the suggest you're making is paedohilia is justified, however concentiual sex between adults even if a financial transaction occurs to create this relationship doesn't equal murder. Your argument is like saying "people double parked in Medivial dublin doesn't that make it ok?"
    Ok so here we introduce consent into the cauldron. Say the child were consenting to a paedophile? Say nobody on earth ever found out about the act? Now is it right? I would say no, the law says it is no because most people say no. Why is this? Because people have inherent morals that sex with children is wrong, murder is wrong, etc., etc.
    black_jack wrote:
    What does this wittering mean? What does there system of moral got to do with anything. We've had this conversation earlier when you couldn't defend your point about basic morality coming from christianity despite these societies having morality and systems of government similiar to christinaity but predating christian infulences.
    What do you mean morals have nothing got to do with anything. Yes they do, for without a sense of right and wrong, good and evil, what do we base our laws on? Western society is dominated by a legal system founded in christianity and there's no denying this fact. There may have been prior ruling systems, but these have been overcome. Even as recently as WW2 when Pope Pious XII spoke out against sterilization and racist marriage regulations in Nazi Germany.
    black_jack wrote:
    So if Abortion was legalised that'd be okay with you? Or Divorice is divorce okay.
    No it certainly would not be ok. The santuary of marriage is a most sacred one, and I don't understand why people even bother getting 'married' into churches these days when in fact they have no intention of going to Mass or educating their children under the guidance of God.
    black_jack wrote:
    And How does killiing and violence equal prostitution?
    Killing and violence are both wrong, that's what I said, you must agree though?

    black_jack wrote:
    Okay the above is an opinion which states opinion as fact so I'll sure you'll using your proven track record you'll be able to support them.

    And My point is not celebrate or support prostitution but I've asked you to address the arguments, so are you opposed to better control of the trafficking of women, better health and safety standards for prostitutes, or taxation of income, or what?
    Oh so what is your point then? You see none of these decisions would arise in the first place if people realised that engaging in such activities is not only illegal, but inherently wrong. There are other ways to live one's life without having to go down that road.

    black_jack wrote:
    Uh huh and if you got a poll about whether we like puppies or not you'd get a resounding "NO". Suggesting the public at large will be opposed to prostitute makes a mockery of the simpsons burlsque house episode.
    I'd say most people would vote no. And besides, I don't think any government would even consider holding such a referendum; why do you think that is?

    black_jack wrote:
    And the families of smokers and drunks? Those beaten by drunks and drunken violence. Are not the children and wives of drunkes also victims? Also, er isn't a single man meeting a prostitute, who isnt a drug addict, not under the thrall of a pimp, a harmless crime?

    Whats the difference?
    A single man meeting a prostitute to engage in sexual perversion is dispicable. Sure if people like you with your liberal agenda had their way we'd be living in Huxley's Brave New World before we knew it.

    black_jack wrote:
    And the family members and childrens living with smokers?
    Quite irresponsible if you ask me. Some people say we should make laws to cover this kind of scenario. I say, if you had any respect for yourself as a family man, you wouldn't expose your family in such a way; you'd abide by your responsibilities and follow what is right.

    black_jack wrote:
    Strong moral base=lack of coherant argument or logic.

    Hey you say potato, I say, you can't make a point.
    Someone who lives their lives by a strong moral base as you call it lives a richer life for it and does not have to constantly justify what they see around them for themselves. You cling on to all your worldly possesions that is your little boat in an infinite See, but I've got my eye fixed firmly on God who'll lead me from my boat and walk with me across the water.

    black_jack wrote:
    So the irony about holding people in contempt is just what? Look what are you? The last member of the cast of lost?
    I'm not claiming to have all the answers although I have confidence in 2000 years of truth whereas you fail to realise that your debonair nihilism is really just a cosmic joke. In your case nothing is really of consequence, for me everything is of consequence, because everything has been redeemed by Christ.

    black_jack wrote:
    How about parading his status a catholic while stating beliefs that run contray with the philosophy of the new testmenant.
    Who's to say he may have said so out of ignorance? He can answer for himself surely?

    black_jack wrote:
    So lets me get this clear if he'd not read the word of god and understood it that'd not make him less of a catholic, one of the most absurdly dogmatic religions on this planet?!?

    I may not got life sorted but I can suss a paradox when I sees one.

    You can joke about how 'absurdly dogmatic' the Catholic Church is. Remember you're just a little man of 6 billion on a small planet, why don't you open your mind just a little and see that the Catholic Church is not there to opress and supress, but to reach out to everyone and guide them.
    And I don't know the bible inside out, upside down like perhaps the Pope and his Cardinals do. No earthly being is a guru of infinite knowlege, but we all have our role in the world.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    AndyWarhol wrote:
    that the Catholic Church is not there to opress and supress, but to reach out to everyone and guide them.

    Including gays and lesbians who acknowledge the wrongness of their condition, those who've had abortions or divorces, as long as they seek forgiveness for their sinful actions...and so on and so forth.

    There is a very, very fine line between guidance and oppression. The catholic church moved from the oppressive side to the guidance side when it lost the power to remain oppressive.
    A single man meeting a prostitute to engage in sexual perversion is dispicable.
    This is your idea of guidance? No discussion? No if, buts, or maybes? Its just plain out despicable?

    What if money doesn't change hands? What if I wine and dine a girl, and at the end of the night end up in the sack with her? I've effectively traded money for sex there. Also despicable?

    Is it ultimately just sex outside marriage that you (or the Catholic Church) find despicable?

    jc


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭hairyheretic


    AndyWarhol wrote:
    The fact is prostitution is outlawed. Why do you think that is? Because the majority of people say so.

    No, because the law says so.

    AndyWarhol wrote:
    Why is this? Because something inside them tells them it is wrong. Why is this? Because people have fundamental morals; that is, to do what is right and good.

    But everyone has different ideas as to what is right and wrong.

    AndyWarhol wrote:
    Ok so here we introduce consent into the cauldron. Say the child were consenting to a paedophile? Say nobody on earth ever found out about the act? Now is it right? I would say no, the law says it is no because most people say no. Why is this? Because people have inherent morals that sex with children is wrong, murder is wrong, etc., etc.

    Because a child is not physically or emotionally / mentally capable of dealing with the consequences of sex before a certain age.

    Look back through history, and you'll find the ages of marriage and consent have varied a fair bit.
    AndyWarhol wrote:
    What do you mean morals have nothing got to do with anything. Yes they do, for without a sense of right and wrong, good and evil, what do we base our laws on? Western society is dominated by a legal system founded in christianity and there's no denying this fact.

    Odd, I thought I had denied that fact of yours. I would say that the ancient Greece and Rome have contributed just as much to the foundation of western society.
    AndyWarhol wrote:
    There may have been prior ruling systems, but these have been overcome.

    Generally at the point of a sword.
    AndyWarhol wrote:
    Even as recently as WW2 when Pope Pious XII spoke out against sterilization and racist marriage regulations in Nazi Germany.

    But not against the holocaust itself. Why do you suppose that was?
    AndyWarhol wrote:
    No it certainly would not be ok. The santuary of marriage is a most sacred one, and I don't understand why people even bother getting 'married' into churches these days when in fact they have no intention of going to Mass or educating their children under the guidance of God.

    My guess would be a certain ammount of societial pressure.
    AndyWarhol wrote:
    Killing and violence are both wrong, that's what I said, you must agree though?

    Killing and violence are wrong, yes. There are times that they are necessary though.

    AndyWarhol wrote:
    Oh so what is your point then? You see none of these decisions would arise in the first place if people realised that engaging in such activities is not only illegal, but inherently wrong.

    Only in your oppinion. Others do not share it.
    AndyWarhol wrote:
    There are other ways to live one's life without having to go down that road.

    But you give the impression that yours is the only right way. Let me ask you this .. whose moral code do you live by? Your own, or someone elses? I will presume that it is your own, and that you do not wish to live by anyone elses. Why then should anyone else live by yours?
    AndyWarhol wrote:
    A single man meeting a prostitute to engage in sexual perversion is dispicable.

    In your oppinion.
    AndyWarhol wrote:
    Sure if people like you with your liberal agenda had their way we'd be living in Huxley's Brave New World before we knew it.

    And what would you prefer? The Handmaids Tale? A strict theocracy like in some of the arab states where anyone not going to mass on a sunday can be rounded up and stoned to death by the "good" people of the town?
    AndyWarhol wrote:
    Someone who lives their lives by a strong moral base as you call it lives a richer life for it and does not have to constantly justify what they see around them for themselves. You cling on to all your worldly possesions that is your little boat in an infinite See, but I've got my eye fixed firmly on God who'll lead me from my boat and walk with me across the water.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1798944,00.html

    "RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.

    According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

    The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society."

    You can read the rest of the article yourself.
    AndyWarhol wrote:
    I'm not claiming to have all the answers although I have confidence in 2000 years of truth whereas you fail to realise that your debonair nihilism is really just a cosmic joke. In your case nothing is really of consequence, for me everything is of consequence, because everything has been redeemed by Christ.

    Whether they want to be or not?
    AndyWarhol wrote:
    You can joke about how 'absurdly dogmatic' the Catholic Church is. Remember you're just a little man of 6 billion on a small planet, why don't you open your mind just a little and see that the Catholic Church is not there to opress and supress, but to reach out to everyone and guide them.

    Ok, now thats funny. Take a little look through history and check out just exactly how much oppressing and supressing the catholic church has been involved in, if not directly responsibly for.

    Every hear the phrase "Kill them all, god will know his own." ? Guess which god was being referenced there?

    We also have the destruction and forced conversion of the non christian european peoples, the crusades, religious persecution in medievil europe,the destruction and forced conversion of south america, the whole catholic / protestant thing thats been going on since the middle ages, and the list goes on and on.

    If you want to take more recent example, the various sexual abuse scandals of not so many years past. When the priests activities were brought to light was he punished, stripped of his authority, given over for criminal proceedings? No, he was moved on elsewhere, and his accusors bribed or threatened into silence.

    Now, would you like to open your mind a bit?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    AndyWarhol wrote:
    I have confidence in 2000 years of truth

    Two comments:

    1) does this include the "truth" of the crusades, the Holy Inquisition, and other atrocities carried out in the name of your god and your church?

    2) Catholicism is by no means the oldest religion. Judaeism, for example, is at least half as old again. Does that make it 1.5 times more truthful? What about Hinduism and Zoroastrianism - older again. When these older religions differ from yours in teaching, does their age not lend them more authority?

    jc


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    Why do people arguing against prostitution seem to believe that they are arguing against prostitution being made compulsory?

    I'd be dead set against any attempt to make visiting prostitutes compulsory. If you feel it's morally repulsive to pay or get paid for sex then that is absolutely your right, and your right to abstain from such practices. You also have a right to try to persuade people away from prostitution and to express your views. To punish people with jail for having a different moral code to you is peverse.
    Victor wrote:
    Can you point to the specific piece that makes it illegal on private property?
    My understanding is that private property used by even one prostitute on a regular basis falls under the 'brothel keeping' part of the act.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 223 ✭✭AndyWarhol


    pH wrote:
    Why do people arguing against prostitution seem to believe that they are arguing against prostitution being made compulsory?

    I'd be dead set against any attempt to make visiting prostitutes compulsory. If you feel it's morally repulsive to pay or get paid for sex then that is absolutely your right, and your right to abstain from such practices. You also have a right to try to persuade people away from prostitution and to express your views. To punish people with jail for having a different moral code to you is peverse.

    No it's not perverse. Some people have to have standards set upon them as they have no other guidance in their lives; selfness, 'me, me, me' and 'if it feels good for me it is right' attitudes left unleashed would reap havoc on the world. Of course visiting prositutes in not compulsory, that's not the issue. Legalising prostitution is sending out the message that it's ok to just meet up anonymously with some stranger, penetrate them and walk off as if nothing ever happened.
    Is punishing serial murders with jail perverse? They also have a different moral code if they want to kill somebody. There are well thought-out moral boundaries of right and wrong, good and evil.


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