Legalisation of prostitution?

Tomlowe

whadaya reckon, would it bring all the pervs into ireland or would it free us from the shackles of 1950s catholicism?

murphaph

Tomlowe wrote:

whadaya reckon, would it bring all the pervs into ireland or would it free us from the shackles of 1950s catholicism?

More importantly would it free those women trafficked here to 'work' in the sex 'industry' by the scum of the earth, human trafficking pimp ba$tards. Legalise it, and regulate it. The criminals can be removed from the equation then and the exchequer ould receive VAT and income tax from the newly legalised and regulated industry.

Victor

Prostitution is legal in Ireland. Cartain activities associated with prostitution are illegal - pimping, kerb crawing, etc.

PS Read the charter.

the_syco

murphaph wrote:

The criminals can be removed from the equation then

Actually, they'd still be there, they'd just go for another niche, such as younger women, possibly underaged, or those imported from abroad.

simu

Tomlowe wrote:

whadaya reckon, would it bring all the pervs into ireland or would it free us from the shackles of 1950s catholicism?

Well, forget about these "shackles" you refer to. They've pretty much been removed by now and there are valid arguments for not allowing prostitution that do not stem from any form of Catholicism at all. As for whether I agree with these or not... well, post up your own opinion first!

Tomlowe

Victor, what parts of it are currently legal? I'd just assumed it was all illegal.

dahamsta

the_syco wrote:

Actually, they'd still be there, they'd just go for another niche, such as younger women, possibly underaged, or those imported from abroad.

There would be less of an opportunity for them though, the market would be smaller and their activities would be "more illegal", and therefore more likely to result in investigation and prosecution. No sympathy because "sure they're only feeding human nature".

Victor

Tomlowe wrote:

Victor, what parts of it are currently legal? I'd just assumed it was all illegal.

The actual prostitution bit where one adult gives another adult money in exchange for sex - in private.

Some people call it marriage.

catholicireland

whadaya reckon, would it bring all the pervs into ireland or would it free us from the shackles of 1950s catholicism?

Wouldnt you say there are enough of them here already?
How exactly would it free us from the shackles of 1950s catholicism?
What in the name of god has allowing men to have sex with women who are most likely going to use the money for drugs and other shadey business got to do with the Church?!

defiantshrimp

It should definitely be legalised. Fundamentally "Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign", what right has the government to ban an activity between consensual adults? But for those who don't accept this (those who would nanny us) the simple fact of the matter is that there will always be a demand for prostitutes and there will always be women who want to work as prostitutes. At the moment it costs a lot of money to keep prostitution illegal, we spend money policing and prosecuting those involved and also on health care from the transmission of disease through unsafe sex. If we legalise it, it will turn into a source of revenue for the government and also cut off a source of funds to criminals involved in prostitution. Furthermore we can regulate it to prevent both unsafe sex and also the trafficking of women and children into the industry. We have legalised pornography but not prostitution. It makes no sense. Prostitution has little negative externalities (it naturally has some) but the benefits outweigh the costs of it being legalised.

weeder

i say legalise it as long as condoms are used every time and catholic ireland-some women have no choice because they cant get a normal job so use prostitution as a way to stay alive

Victor

defiantshrimp wrote:

It should definitely be legalised. Fundamentally "Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign", what right has the government to ban an activity between consensual adults?

Please read posts 3 and 8 on this thread.

Can I ask did you skip past them, ignore them or read them and decide to spout off misleading statements anyway?

weeder wrote:

i say legalise it as long as condoms are used every time

Will we have a Garda hiding behind the [strike]bus stop[/strike], wardrobe with a camera to check?

Maskhadov

I would be against it because I think Sexually transmitted diseases would rise a lot and we would have lots of dodgy tourists over. Just look at holland, no thanks

catholicireland

what right has the government to ban an activity between consensual adults?

What if that "activity" hurts or affects other people? Im not just talking about prostitution here.

But for those who don't accept this (those who would nanny us)

You say "those" as if they are a minority of Irish people. While in fact you and you opinion are in a small minority. I would expect a 90%+ oposition to this if you asked Irish people.

Prostitution has little negative externalities (it naturally has some) but the benefits outweigh the costs of it being legalised.

Rubbish. Prostitutes dont do what they do because they love sex, most do it because they are drug addicts.
Such a legalisation would lower our society into a more immoral and destructive counrty. It would be a disaster, and there is no doubt that some of the support that can be read on this thread is from people who cannot get a woman and would love to be able to have sex without going to holland...

Hagar

simu wrote:

Well, forget about these "shackles" you refer to.

How much extra is it with the shackles? What about handcuffs, whips etc.?:D

murphaph

catholicireland wrote:

I would expect a 90%+ oposition to this if you asked Irish people.

That's just your opinion and you've no facts presented here to support it, so in the context of this debate-it's worthless.

catholicireland wrote:

Rubbish. Prostitutes dont do what they do because they love sex, most do it because they are drug addicts.

How do you know? In countries like Germany, Holland & Belgium, where prostitution is legal and regulated by government, the prostitutes must pass STD testing to be allowed hold on to their licences. No bothel owner would hire someone without certification and no punter would logically play russian roullette with a crack-whore on the side of the street to save a few quid.

catholicireland wrote:

Such a legalisation would lower our society into a more immoral and destructive counrty. It would be a disaster, and there is no doubt that some of the support that can be read on this thread is from people who cannot get a woman and would love to be able to have sex without going to holland...

Good argument, you should take up debating professionally :rolleyes:

murphaph

Hagar wrote:

How much extra is it with the shackles? What about handcuffs, whips etc.?:D

Haha classic!

catholicireland

How do you know?

Because I have watched tv and read newspapers. Its common knowledge and you know it.

Good argument, you should take up debating professionally

Well its true.


The best bit about this silly arguement is that this sick business will never be allowed in Ireland. Thank God. Because we live in a counrty where people are moral and are not warped liberals like some on here.

murphaph

eh, most of the people on here live in Ireland!

Out of curiosity CatholicIreland, would you allow prostitution if it resulted in a united Ireland? or would you give up a united Ireland to keep prostitution illegal?

simu

defiantshrimp wrote:

But for those who don't accept this (those who would nanny us) the simple fact of the matter is that there will always be a demand for prostitutes and there will always be women who want to work as prostitutes.

Well, is this a fact? OK, there are probably always people around whose sexual needs are not being met but atm, most people in Ireland would not consider going to a prostitute when they find themselves in such a situation. If prostitution were to become more mainstream and acceptable, you would have a larger market for it because it wouldn't be seen as sleazy and sad anymore. I'm not convinced this would be for the good of Irish society though.

In theory, it shouldn't be a problem that one person pays another to have sex with them but laws aren't enacted in a blank, ideal state. Attitudes to sex and prostitution are certainly not neutral and are often quite negative at the moment and it would be hard to get rid of this overnight and make prostitutio a career choice like any other.

(I'm actually undecided still on the question, though!)

bonkey

catholicireland wrote:

You say "those" as if they are a minority of Irish people. While in fact you and you opinion are in a small minority. I would expect a 90%+ oposition to this if you asked Irish people.

Yes, the Irish are well known for making decisions like this on the "I don't want to do it, hence no-one should be allowed" basis.

As befits your username, its an indication of the continuing hold the Catholic church has on the Irish "mentality" in terms of the success of its telling us what to do.

Rubbish. Prostitutes dont do what they do because they love sex, most do it because they are drug addicts.

Interestingly, that only seems to hold true with illegal prostitution.

Legal prostitution often relies on the good ol' financial trap. Take women from Eastern Europe and other "lesser" economies, supply housing etc at exorbitant rates, ultimately resulting in them simply not being able to afford to leave their jobs....especially when their employer holds (real or fictitious) threats over their head like their work permit.

Such a legalisation would lower our society into a more immoral and destructive counrty.

Yeah. Just look at Switzerland. Land of despots. Gone to the dogs utterly ever since they legalised it.

It would be a disaster,

For Catholic Ireland, perhaps. For the people of Ireland....I very much doubt it, unless it was criminally mismanaged.

jc

defiantshrimp

Victor wrote:

Please read posts 3 and 8 on this thread. Can I ask did you skip past them, ignore them or read them and decide to spout off misleading statements anyway?

I had indeed read your posts, but lest we be pedantic about it I think the industry should be legalised and regulated. That means including pimping and the other things associated with prostitution. Sorry if I made to many assumptions about what I meant by prostitution.

Maskhadov wrote:

I would be against it because I think Sexually transmitted diseases would rise a lot and we would have lots of dodgy tourists over. Just look at holland, no thanks

Prostitution is legal in many countries (Holland and the state of Nevada for example) and there has not been a rise in the level of STD’s. And we already have a large amount of dodgy tourists! A few more can’t hurt

catholicireland wrote:

What if that "activity" hurts or affects other people? Im not just talking about prostitution here.

It depends on the activity naturally and what effect it has on others. But we are talking about prostitution here which I believe has only small repercussions for the rest of society.

catholicireland wrote:

You say "those" as if they are a minority of Irish people. While in fact you and you opinion are in a small minority. I would expect a 90%+ oposition to this if you asked Irish people.

OOO let’s play the made up statistics game! 99% of people support legalised and regulated prostitution! The majority of the public think you are wrong! How do I know…. I can “feel” the public’s support behind me.

Stop making up s***e and actually contribute to the debate. On a more serious note even if a majority are against it, the point of a debate is to persuade people and enlighten them to the best course of action. Once upon a time people would not support the legalisation of homosexuality. Things change.

catholicireland wrote:

Rubbish. Prostitutes dont do what they do because they love sex, most do it because they are drug addicts.

Did I say that prostitutes love what they do? Most people don’t love their jobs, according to your wisdom should we ban all those jobs? Maybe you can make up some statistics to kickstart the “ban your job” campaign.

catholicireland wrote:

Such a legalisation would lower our society into a more immoral and destructive counrty. It would be a disaster

You are committing a logical fallacy by arguing from adverse consequences. Simply saying “You can’t legalise prostitution, it would destroy the world!” is not an argument. It is baloney. Enlighten us to how legalising prostitution would “lower our society into a more immoral and destructive country”? Is Holland an immoral and destructive society? Germany? What about Belgium? Maybe Switzerland? No? Pehaps the USA?

catholicireland wrote:

there is no doubt that some of the support that can be read on this thread is from people who cannot get a woman and would love to be able to have sex without going to holland...

When all else fails resort to personal attacks! You are some fantastic debater!

pH

Making prostitution illegal is a fundamental abuse of human rights, based on the fact that it is a victimless crime.

We need laws that protect societies members from each other, not to regulate their behaviour and thoughts. If a crime has been committed, then you should be able to produce a victim for that crime, if not it's not a crime.

As for the harm it does, it is a bizarre situation where we criminalise and punish people to 'protect them from harm'.

Wheras the actual sex act and money changing hands may be technically legal, any attempts to offer or procure sex for money is illegal http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993_20.html making prostitution effectively illegal in Ireland. So random people who bump into each other in private property can have sex for money as long as neither one of them asks or offers. Seems like only psychics can be legal johns or prostitues.

AndyWarhol

defiantshrimp wrote:

It should definitely be legalised. Fundamentally "Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign", what right has the government to ban an activity between consensual adults? But for those who don't accept this (those who would nanny us) the simple fact of the matter is that there will always be a demand for prostitutes and there will always be women who want to work as prostitutes.

Well if you apply your 'individual is sovereign' logic, then why not allow sex with children?, sex with animals?, stealing?, murder? etc.. You are confusing 'nanny' with law. The legalisation of prositution would, in my opinion, be a mockery to the woman's body and would permit an unhealthy flow of underground seediness within society.

defiantshrimp wrote:

At the moment it costs a lot of money to keep prostitution illegal, we spend money policing and prosecuting those involved and also on health care from the transmission of disease through unsafe sex. If we legalise it, it will turn into a source of revenue for the government and also cut off a source of funds to criminals involved in prostitution. Furthermore we can regulate it to prevent both unsafe sex and also the trafficking of women and children into the industry. We have legalised pornography but not prostitution. It makes no sense. Prostitution has little negative externalities (it naturally has some) but the benefits outweigh the costs of it being legalised.

You go on as if legalising prostitution would have few 'negative externalities' as you call it. Have you ever been to Amsterdam? I have, and I was absolutely appaled by the breakdown of morals in that society.

catholicireland

I think its disturbing that some people on here think the whole sex/prostitute world is a great thing and its misunderstood. Its illegal for a start, and wrong. How would you like it if your mother of sister was a prostitute?

Did I say that prostitutes love what they do? Most people don’t love their jobs, according to your wisdom should we ban all those jobs? Maybe you can make up some statistics to kickstart the “ban your job” campaign.

I didnt say we should keep it illegal just because these women and girls dont like what they do. It is a by-product of crime. Women sell their bodies to pay drug dealers. The whole thing is sick and alot of the men who go to these prostitutes, some are rapeists and other scum who would love this to be legalised.

By the way, as a matter of interest, would any of ye actually use the service of a prostitute?

hairyheretic

AndyWarhol wrote:

You go on as if legalising prostitution would have few 'negative externalities' as you call it. Have you ever been to Amsterdam? I have, and I was absolutely appaled by the breakdown of morals in that society.

Morality is by definition a personal thing, and each individual is going to have differing oppinions as to whether or not something is right or wrong.

What you consider immoral may not bother others in the slightest.

Personality I wouldn't have a problem with legalised prostitution. I believe that if you legalised it you would remove (much) of the criminal element from it, making it safer for all involved.

pH

I think its disturbing that some people on here think the whole sex/prostitute world is a great thing and its misunderstood. Its illegal for a start, and wrong. How would you like it if your mother of sister was a prostitute?

How do you get from caring for your mother or sister to arguing that she should be put in jail, which is what in effect criminalising prostitution is saying.

The state (and advocacy groups) have every right to encourage and educate people away from prositution, give them other options and protect them from harm. However giving someone a criminal record and imprisoning them seems a poor way to show you care for them, and in many ways traps them into their chosen profession.

When something is criminalised (for example see alcohol prohibition in the US) an underworld will form around it's supply, but this is a response to the criminisation not to the underlying supply/demand.

catholicireland

However giving someone a criminal record and imprisoning them seems a poor way to show you care for them, and in many ways traps them into their chosen profession.

Care? Why should we care for people who break the law? Prostitutes are not dumb, they know its illegal, they know its wrong and filthy but they do it because they are hooked on herion or crack cocaine.

When something is criminalised (for example see alcohol prohibition in the US) an underworld will form around it's supply, but this is a response to the criminisation not to the underlying supply/demand.

You could say the same about illegal drugs which destroy peoples lives.

I dont see why people would want this legalised anyway.? Some people on here are speaking about it so passionatley as if they have something to gain by it being legal!

hairyheretic

catholicireland wrote:

I didnt say we should keep it illegal just because these women and girls dont like what they do.

I don't particularly like my job either (I work on a helldesk). Should we make that illegal as well?

catholicireland wrote:

It is a by-product of crime.

No, its a by-product of demand. If it wasn't wanted, it wouldn't be there.

Alcohol is bad for you. Cigarettes are bad for you. Both are addictive drugs, and can lead to medical conditions too. Both have been the focus of criminal activity.

Do you see either of those being banned any time soon?

catholicireland wrote:

Women sell their bodies to pay drug dealers.

I expect some do, but not all. I recall reading a story a while back about a journalist who went to do a story at the Bunny Ranch in Nevada, and liked it so much she decided to stay and start working there.

I somehow doubt paying for drugs was her reason for that.

catholicireland wrote:

The whole thing is sick

In your oppinion.

catholicireland wrote:

and alot of the men who go to these prostitutes, some are rapeists and other scum who would love this to be legalised.

Do you have any kind of referencable statistics to back that up?

catholicireland wrote:

By the way, as a matter of interest, would any of ye actually use the service of a prostitute?

I'm married, so the wife might object

I don't have the need for it myself, but I don't see it as being a particular problem either.

Victor

catholicireland wrote:

By the way, as a matter of interest, would any of ye actually use the service of a prostitute?

Wouldn't a more pertinant question be "Would any of ye actually become a prostitute?" (no need to answer folks).

CJhaughey

If ye all want to look at a recent example of a country with almost exactly the same size population that recently legalised prostitution, look at New Zealand.
Prostitution was legalised there in 2003.
The country hasn't fallen to it's knees in a quagmire of seedy corrupt and perverted sex tourists either AFAIK.LINK