The "class" issue in Dublin is beginning to piss me off...

Guy:Incognito · 19-09-2005 11:59AM

electric69 wrote:

yes im a "knack"....you are obviously one of these uneducated,ignorant,low life wasters who will undoubtably spend the vast majority of their life in Mountjoy or in the que for their money which the scab off the government because they are to lazy to get up off their arse and get a job....i suspect that the computer which you are using is stolen of the back of a lorry no doubt.

Is that the automatic assumption you make against people from working class backrounds?

Dades · 19-09-2005 12:05PM

Don't you oppress me!

simu · 19-09-2005 12:36PM

Kernel wrote:

Whereas there is some truth in class bonding, the principle cannot be 100% true (or even 80%) since the vast majority of middle class Irish were not middle class 50 years ago. Once Ireland was a poor backwater, where most people struggled to survive (and we suffered a famine), now we have transformed into a vibrant economy, and people have worked away from the previous working class or even peasant roots.

Yes, but who remembers 50 years ago? The thing is that some people have managed to escape poverty while others have not and unfortunately members of both groups can have issues about it.

MorningStar · 19-09-2005 12:39PM

Kernel wrote:

Whereas there is some truth in class bonding, the principle cannot be 100% true (or even 80%) since the vast majority of middle class Irish were not middle class 50 years ago. Once Ireland was a poor backwater, where most people struggled to survive (and we suffered a famine), now we have transformed into a vibrant economy, and people have worked away from the previous working class or even peasant roots.

You might need to check your history. There has always been a class structure in Ireland and at no point did it disappear. There were alot of rich Irish people throughout Europe. The middle classes were heavily written about after the 1916 rising. The likes of Donnycarney had a huge wall built between the original housing and the corporation estates being built in the 40s. Even before the property was built you had the discrimination.

Kernel wrote:

It's also important to realise that even those people who work lacklustre jobs or come from a working class background can possess a keen intelligence, and have knowledge of things that you don't, and as such deserve respect if they give it (ie. attitude).

How gracious of you, imagine a waiteress or a barman could be smart! :rolleyes:
I do agree attitude is the big key but you might want to consider your own given how offensive what you have siad is. You might not have meant it that way but it sounds pretty bad.

Kernel wrote:

For another poster who suggested there was no class system in Ireland, I would say that this is unfortunately untrue, and is becoming more pronounced in recent years. Our class system is very much like the British system, without peerage and royalty.

As far as I am concerend I belive Ireland has had the most radicle shake ups to social classes due to house prices. People from many different backgrounds and education are now living side by side just depending on when they entered the property market and not so much on their income as before. Income is obviously not the only connection to class divides but it is a big indicator. My first house was an ex-corpo house one side had the original tenant's daughter (civil servant) the other side had the grandaughter and family (hairdresser and paiter/decorator) of the original tenant. Further down their was a young vet and archeitect the other direction (same houses on the same road). Very diverse class combo compared to 20 years ago.

electric69 · 19-09-2005 01:20PM

Stekelly: is that the automatic assumption you make against people from working class backrounds?

No, not at all. my reaction completly justified what the person in question had said.I never said or claimed that i would put myself in a certain class of background.It clearly doesnt make any difference what your background is, there are just as many so called "kancks" in working class areas as there are in more upper class areas so i would never say that i would base my opinion on where the person is from....only on the persons attitude,manners and respect which they show towards other people

Caliden · 19-09-2005 01:26PM

roysh so what about your merc like?

electric69 · 19-09-2005 01:35PM

What about my merc? Im not from dublin and your not Ross O' Carroll Kelly so stop talking like him (nobody can ever come close to that ledge!)

Caliden · 19-09-2005 01:41PM

not aimed at you. stop being so paranoid....

AARRRGH · 19-09-2005 01:44PM

Isn't it funny that half the posts here are slagging off poor/wealthy people?

Just pointing it out...

Kernel · 19-09-2005 01:55PM

MorningStar wrote:

You might need to check your history. There has always been a class structure in Ireland and at no point did it disappear. There were alot of rich Irish people throughout Europe. The middle classes were heavily written about after the 1916 rising. The likes of Donnycarney had a huge wall built between the original housing and the corporation estates being built in the 40s. Even before the property was built you had the discrimination.

Oh I'm not disputing that there was no class structure in Ireland previously, I never suggested that? I don't need to check my history on the matter, since what I said was that in the past 50 years, or 100 years if you like, there has been a massive shift in so called working-class moving up to middle. That means that your theory on people being stuck within the class they originate from is wrong.

MorningStar wrote:

How gracious of you, imagine a waiteress or a barman could be smart! :rolleyes:
I do agree attitude is the big key but you might want to consider your own given how offensive what you have siad is. You might not have meant it that way but it sounds pretty bad.

There are plenty of people out there who think that a persons job or role in society defines the person, I'm saying it doesn't, what's wrong with that? We're talking about preconcieved class perceptions here, I'm not being gracious or subscribing to any, merely explaining my point (in this instance that the job doesn't necessarily define a persons qualities).

MorningStar wrote:

As far as I am concerend I belive Ireland has had the most radicle shake ups to social classes due to house prices. People from many different backgrounds and education are now living side by side just depending on when they entered the property market and not so much on their income as before. Income is obviously not the only connection to class divides but it is a big indicator.

Well, yes and no, I still believe that the big expensive houses and areas of the upper classes are still the big and expensive houses and areas of the upper classes. The only difference with housing is much more private ownership of houses by the working class or the middle class in the past 50 years. Having the value of a property increase does not necessarily mean the working/middle class owner is any better off financially, since comparative properties would also have increased (and in more affluent areas they increase at a faster rate), and they would still need somewhere to live.

The gap between rich and poor in ireland is one of the biggest in Europe, so I don't think that there has been as radical a shake up as many homeowners would like to believe. Just because you're working for a mortgage doesn't mean you aint working class.

MorningStar · 19-09-2005 02:56PM

Kernel wrote:

....

The gap between rich and poor in ireland is one of the biggest in Europe, so I don't think that there has been as radical a shake up as many homeowners would like to believe. Just because you're working for a mortgage doesn't mean you aint working class.

I don't mean to insult but you sound clueless on the subject. You have nice well round view on it but appear to be grossly inacurate on your facts and unaware of how insulting your comment was.
You don't gauge poverty by riches to poorest for starters (that's a silly media trick) you should use average as your bench mark. A homeless person really is no poorer country to country but rich varies a lot
The middle class didn't exist means nothing the classes were always apparent. Most people can be called working class as they work for somebody else . The more accurate rating is ABC1 etc... rating (never can remeber it's proper name).
I explained how radicle the shake up is on one small section of a road. The innercity older areas like North Strand or East Wall are more extreme (inherited property versus a proffesional couple newly bought). There is an absolute huge shake up in most areas with the exception of the very rich but they are even getting appartment blocks and housing estates pushed on them. THe shake up in property is very radicle my cousin who is a plasterer lives in an area where most his neighbours are proffesionals of the highest order and that was just because he was lucky with property. A working plasterer would not be living beside a doctor's home 10 years ago and a vet would not live in a corpo house privately owned. People are constatnly going on about the gentrification of previously rough areas

Sleepy · 19-09-2005 04:08PM

Just to throw another angle on this, I grew up in the typical Irish "middle class family", Both my parents came from relatively poor backgrounds, both joined the bank after their leaving certs, Mum left work to raise me, Dad's been a bank manager most of my life. Went to a decent secondary school and lived at home (paying my rent from a part-time job) for college. So, like I said, typical Irish "middle class" background.

Fast track to present day. I'm working for a living, earning an okay salary but still buried under College debts. Sure, I've prospects but on paper my net worth would be a negative figure and I'm far from alone in this position. Financially we're worth less than your average tennant in a council house that's drawing the dole but we're still considered "middle class" by virtue of our backgrounds. So, where do I and all the others in this position fit in?

Are we working class? Middle Class? Something else?

Personally I'd argue that the only class that matters is class in the sense of one's actions and manners, not where you're from or what you're worth. The old notion of a ruling, a middle and a working class doesn't exist any more if you ask me.

There's just people, of varying degrees of wealth and virtue.

electric69 · 19-09-2005 04:24PM

Personally I'd argue that the only class that matters is class in the sense of one's actions and manners, not where you're from or what you're worth. The old notion of a ruling, a middle and a working class doesn't exist any more if you ask me.

I would agree totally with this.People from working class backgrounds can be very wealthy while people from upper class backgrounds can be less well off and struggling financially.

Are we working class? Middle Class? Something else?

I dont really know to be honest.Under what sircumstances does one fall into the middle or upper class catogory?

If a family is finacially secure and can afford to put thier children through college(paying rent, fees, living expenese,etc), and are able to go abroad on holiday trips a few times every year, are they considered to be middle class or upper class?Are people in the upper class only people with bank balances of 6 and 7 figures?

DonkeyStyle \o/ · 19-09-2005 04:53PM

electric69 wrote:

some peoples intelligence leaves a lot to be desired. :mad:

Stupid people have the right to an opinion too.
Or do you think they need to be shipped off to 'stupid people' island?
Your (pseudo)intellectual snobbery disgusts me.
For shame.

LegacyUser · 19-09-2005 05:00PM

I absolutely hate knackers. And my reason is simple....the amount of times scumbags have started fights or tried to on myself or my friends cos I am blatantly better looking than them, can speak properly, can conduct myself in an orderly fashion, dress respectably and oh, let's not forget my "posh accent". Can't let that one slip...

I ****ing hate trashy bastards like that. I can not stand them. They make me hate them. I did **** all, just like last saturday week in club 92, the races ended early so the scum were out and about and decided to throw on a few nice jackets(they more than likely robbed) and came to club 92. Then they start a fight with me and my 3 friends at the hot dog stand and there were two of them. My mate got a fair few digs in the head from one of them and then the rest was broken up by the bouncers. These ****ing scumbags came out to MY area and started giving us hassle. the cheek of them. I hate them.

electric69 · 19-09-2005 05:10PM

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote:

Stupid people have the right to an opinion too.
Or do you think they need to be shipped off to 'stupid people' island?
Your (pseudo)intellectual snobbery disgusts me.
For shame.

I was refering to what was said in the post in question, not the level of intelligence of the person.the person may well be an very intellectual person but their comment lead me to believe other wise.

As for your comment about "stupid people island"...that had nothing what so ever to do with me and i complatly condemned the person that said it.

And i certainly dont have any intellectual snobbery at all.Just because i am well spoken doesnt mean i am a snob.I was living with a person from a very rough area of dublin for the last year and got on with him very well and i talk 2 him very regularly.I also have a number of friends who some people would class as being from upper class areas i would consider these people to be some of best friends so i certainly dont have an intellectual snobbery....excuse you....

Brock · 19-09-2005 05:30PM

cheesedude wrote:

I absolutely hate knackers. And my reason is simple....the amount of times scumbags have started fights or tried to on myself or my friends cos I am blatantly better looking than them, can speak properly, can conduct myself in an orderly fashion, dress respectably and oh, let's not forget my "posh accent". Can't let that one slip...

I ****ing hate trashy bastards like that. I can not stand them. They make me hate them. I did **** all, just like last saturday week in club 92, the races ended early so the scum were out and about and decided to throw on a few nice jackets(they more than likely robbed) and came to club 92. Then they start a fight with me and my 3 friends at the hot dog stand and there were two of them. My mate got a fair few digs in the head from one of them and then the rest was broken up by the bouncers. These ****ing scumbags came out to MY area and started giving us hassle. the cheek of them. I hate them.

aint u the same guy who told me the story about u in 92 when u got into a fight with a leinster rugby player because he said ur shirt didnt look good enough to be in and enquired as to wat ur "daddy" did for a living

dude get off ur high horse and treat people as equals i always said u were materialistic and ur post just proved my point.thnx

DonkeyStyle \o/ · 19-09-2005 05:31PM

electric69 wrote:

I was living with a person from a very rough area of dublin for the last year and got on with him very well

Yes, and I worked with a black person one time... we had a good laugh together... hence I'm not a racist and can never be accused of being racist no matter what I say or do. :rolleyes:

electric69 wrote:

I also have a number of friends who some people would class as being from upper class areas i would consider these people to be some of best friends so i certainly dont have an intellectual snobbery

Are you implying that class and intelligence are linked? (better 'breeding' perhaps?) ... if not, I can't think why you've brought class into your defense.

Wibbs · 19-09-2005 05:40PM

Some of my best friends are scumbags..... :rolleyes: Oh the insularity of the chinless wonder astounds sometimes.

electric69 · 19-09-2005 05:41PM

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote:

Yes, and I worked with a black person one time... we had a good laugh together... hence I'm not a racist and can never be accused of being racist no matter what I say or do. :rolleyes:

Dont understand what that has got to do with anything.

Are you implying that class and intelligence are linked? (better 'breeding' perhaps?) ... if not, I can't think why you've brought class into your defense.

No im a not implying that at all.my point was to show that i have friends from both ends of the "class" spectrum and i am not biast towards either....and just to point out that it has recently been proven that people who go 2 fee paying schools do not get better grades than people who go to non-fee paying schools.

Sangre · 19-09-2005 05:54PM

electric69 wrote:

No im a not implying that at all.my point was to show that i have friends from both ends of the "class" spectrum and i am not biast towards either....and just to point out that it has recently been proven that people who go 2 fee paying schools do not get better grades than people who go to non-fee paying schools.

Yeah they just do much better in the Leaving Cert.

AARRRGH · 19-09-2005 05:54PM

electric69 wrote:

...people who go 2 fee paying schools do not get better grades than people who go to non-fee paying schools.

People who go to fee paying schools DO get a much better chance at succeeding in life though.

Example - a couple of my friends went to Blackrock college. The friends they made there all have wealthy parents with senior jobs/their own companies. These are great contacts to have.

Also, private schools (for blokes anyway) seem to instill more confidence and aggression (in a "go get what you want" kind of way) in the students, whereas IMO a lot of public schools are full of teachers who don't really give a **** what happens to the students once they leave.

(For the record, I went to a horrendous catholic public school.)

This is slightly OT though.

electric69 · 19-09-2005 05:55PM

Sorry to burst your bubble but you have been proven wrong.

Sangre · 19-09-2005 05:57PM

Prove it.

electric69 · 19-09-2005 05:58PM

dublindude wrote:

People who go to fee paying schools DO get a much better chance at succeeding in life though.
QUOTE]

Not my point...I was talking about results..not chances of succeeding in life.....I would agree totally with your above point though.

DonkeyStyle \o/ · 19-09-2005 06:12PM

electric69 wrote:

No im a not implying that at all.my point was to show that i have friends from both ends of the "class" spectrum and i am not biast towards either....

That's wonderful, but what does it have to do with intellectual snobbery?
Interesting that you brought it into the equation though.

Gazza22 · 19-09-2005 06:25PM

Well i wouldn't consider that fee paying schools achieve higher results. But they do give you the push in life and are more focused on further education.

You rely on your brain to get you your results not a sum of money. The quality of teaching imo is also no different. Yeah fee paying schools are the top feeders for colleges particularly in Dublin but that can't be interpreted as them recieving better results.

OP: It's basically just down to begrudgery...for some people this sort of stuff plays on their mind. Some feel that the people of the middle class are looking down on them and feel the need to go into defensive mode.

Though in saying that some people are perfectly entitled to feel that way because there is quite a number of people who have fallen victim of being snubbed by the middle class. Some allow their wealth to go to their head and just think 'oh yuk' when they see somebody that's not as well off as them.

LegacyUser · 19-09-2005 06:38PM

Brock wrote:

aint u the same guy who told me the story about u in 92 when u got into a fight with a leinster rugby player because he said ur shirt didnt look good enough to be in and enquired as to wat ur "daddy" did for a living

dude get off ur high horse and treat people as equals i always said u were materialistic and ur post just proved my point.thnx

Bollox to that. How can i treat people who deliberately start fights as equals? I'll spit in their face before i ever treat them as an equal.

rose of jericho · 19-09-2005 06:57PM

For a start the views expressed here (in some of the posts) show a very limited view of class stratification in Ireland. Even a basic understanding of socio-economic class and cultural capital seems to be beyond many of the comments. Unfortunately the whole issue of education commented upon in the thread opener is pertinent in our segregated society and creates a situation that nurtures a chip on the shoulder of the working class third level student. What does having a degree or a post-grad mean in Irish society?...usually that you're middle-class and it was a natural progression from second level (with or without any particular standard of intelligence) and your parents can afford it, or that you are in the minority of working class folk who has had to struggle to have their intelligence recognised by a biased education system (in economic and cultural terms). This is insidious to the degree that class issues are taught by the middle-classes (who have little real experience of the substantive issues or realities of class subjugation)in Universities...hence social sciences in Ireland are sadly retrospective.

As far as class bigotry and the relevance of class goes, why would class be an issue when your a member of the more powerful group? I have no problem with middle-class people per se (I have met the odd bright one, although they too seem to be a minority) ...except that there are there so many moronic middleclassholes about.

DadaKopf · 19-09-2005 07:01PM

dublindude wrote:

What is it with people from council estates etc. and their class issues?

I'm from Blackrock (wealthy part of Dublin if you haven't heard of it.) I have a posh accent (I grew up there, can't help it.)

I have no class issues whatsoever. I do not give a **** where you are from. I do not give a **** about your accent.

I don't know ANYONE else in Blackrock who feels differently than me. We are too busy getting on with our lives to give a **** about "class".

Anyway. What happened to me on Friday night is very typical for me. It has happened many times.

I was chatting to some bloke (friend of a friend of a friend). One of the first things he says to me is "I'm from a council estate and I have a Masters Degree." I said, "Yeah cool. What is it in?" etc etc. I thought his sentence was strange, but I didn't really care enough to think twice about it. Then he asks aggressivily, "Where are you from??" and then starts ranting on about everything being about class and how the middle class think their great etc.

I HATE THIS ****.

What is it with people and their bloody stupid class inferiority complexes? NO ONE IN THE "MIDDLE CLASS" GIVES A ****. GET OVER IT.

UGH. So retarded.

Can I ask you a question: do you have any close personal friends and/or socialise with poor or working class people?

If you don't, then you have class issues.

The thing about class is it's a product of industrial capitalism - this isn't a lefty term, it simply describes the system we live under. Capitalism has a habit, through the way it distributes resources between people, of splitting society into groups defined by the functionings of the political economy. The market splits society up economically, culturally, socially, politically. This happens despite the fact that we're all dependent on each other.

For people who think class defines the structure of society, 'class consciousness' emerges whereby people come to identify themselves with their own class. They act like people of their own class because they internalise it. But you do not need to be consciously aware of being a member of a class to behave the way one's class does. Most people aren't aware that they hold the values and opinions of someone befitting their class.

This paints a very stark, rigid picture. Things can be more fluid than this. In fact, there are other ways to picture the way capitalism structures society - some might call them 'status groups'. Now people believe that classes are only one dimension of a complete picture of the structure of society, but what you call 'working class', for example, is basically the collective labelling of people whose options and experiences in life have been determined by economic and political relations, which they have subsequently internalised and continue to reproduce on their own. You should read up on Pierre Bordieu.

This dude you were talking to is obviously angry and wanted to burn someone's ear - I'm sure he also feels personally empowered to educate people about 'the way things are'. And, to be honest, I, as someone from D6, feels an obligation to listen since I perpetuate the inequitable system I inhabit.

Grow a conscience, dude. If you were stuck in a poverty trap, tried everything to get yourself out and didn't want to turn to crime, would you be able to 'get over it'? Clearly this working class guy with a masters is trying to 'get over it', and I'm guessing he had to struggle pretty hard.

The "class" issue in Dublin is beginning to piss me off...

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