Anyone want to know whats happening to your rights?

Guy:Incognito · 21-07-2005 03:08PM

Hobbes wrote:

Which is why the person has to be convicted of a crime before shipping them. The point being is what is defined as an actual crime in the US vs what is in Ireland. I gave the Skyalov as an example. That guy had never commited a crime in the US but was jailed in the US because his previous actions of his company in Russia were deemed a crime.

TBH, if someone is convicted of a crime here that the US deems serious enough to want to extradite him into their own country to be locked up at their taxpayers expense, I'm quite happy to have him out of our country.

Hobbes wrote:

Not if both countries have agreed this is legal to do..

No one is giving the US a right to look through the phonebooks, stab their finger in a page and kidknap the random person they land on.

Hobbes · 21-07-2005 03:13PM

Stekelly wrote:

TBH, if someone is convicted of a crime here that the US deems serious enough to want to extradite him into their own country to be locked up at their taxpayers expense, I'm quite happy to have him out of our country.

Actually they don't have to be convicted of a crime here. It doesn't even need to be a crime here. There was another bill that stipulated this but this bill doesn't. The only point where this would apply is if the person was convicted of the crime here and found not guilty, in which case they can't be taken.

Also we the taxpayers pay, not the requester.

Dades · 21-07-2005 03:14PM

Hobbes wrote:

Which is why the person has to be convicted of a crime before shipping them. The point being is what is defined as an actual crime in the US vs what is in Ireland. I gave the Skyalov as an example. That guy had never commited a crime in the US but was jailed in the US because his previous actions of his company in Russia were deemed a crime.

If it had happened in Ireland with the current laws in place this guy would of been on the first plane to the US.

That Skyalov case reeks of a high-profile warning to would-be copyright thieves.

Are Irish 18 years olds on J1 visas going to be arrested in the States because they drank underage at home according to US law?

Have some perspective people.

MorningStar · 21-07-2005 03:19PM

shellby wrote:

and the damage and destruction caused to peoples lives because of those planes is justified by this i think not

This also for the others who said similar. I didn't say it was right! What I pointed out is it is very easy to be critical when you don't have the same pressures of running a country. I doesn't quite justify the behaviour but might explain how it happens. Morality is relative to the situation you are in contry to popular belief. It may be a very highbrow view of the situation but that's it.

I am concerned about the planes and contents coming in and out of ireland. The loss of rights would worry me too but I don't think it is much different and will be challanged.

kasintahan · 21-07-2005 03:19PM

Stekelly wrote:

Last I checked we werent in a country run by a dictator who is murderng thousands of his own people, trying to annex our neighbours and proclaiming death to americans.

Lets not pretend that "war" had anything to do with democracy, other wise we'd see the US in N. Korea tomorrow morning.

The Atheist wrote:

Don't flatter them.

The US has enough anti-war activists without having to import them.

Those, they already have monitered and contained in 100m square caged compounds 10km away from the thing they protest.

Talliesin · 21-07-2005 03:52PM

The Atheist wrote:

Don't commit a crime and you should be fine.

LOL. Post of the month.

grumpytrousers · 21-07-2005 03:52PM

People (with a very small minority of mistakes etc) dont get arrested for nothing.The Gards know the majority of criminals and scumbags and these are the people who get leaned on if anything happens, not random people walking the street. You'll always fnd that someone getting arrested has a long record of minor things and theres always a few things everyone knowes they did but cant prove

Jesus wept, man, do the frigging words McBrearty and Morris Tribunal mean ANYTHING to you... :mad:

Hobbes · 21-07-2005 03:53PM

The Atheist wrote:

That Skyalov case reeks of a high-profile warning to would-be copyright thieves.

If they were in America they would of broken the DCMA law. A law put in place by big businesses to stop people making money. He got arrested because there was money behind the request to have him arrested (and I'd suspect it was somewhat of a fundraiser for the FBI too).

Are Irish 18 years olds on J1 visas going to be arrested in the States because they drank underage at home according to US law?

Nice try but not the same thing.

Sarky · 21-07-2005 04:04PM

Just registered a complaint on the government website. Damn, it felt good to let off some steam. I recommend everyone do it. You'll get rid of a little stress AND do something important for the country!

Nuttzz · 21-07-2005 04:08PM

Sarky wrote:

Just registered a complaint on the government website. Damn, it felt good to let off some steam. I recommend everyone do it. You'll get rid of a little stress AND do something important for the country!

make sure to include your name and address for easy identification by the impending snatch squads.....

Sarky · 21-07-2005 04:11PM

If I suddenly stop posting, you'll know what happened...

Hobbes · 21-07-2005 04:12PM

Nuttzz wrote:

make sure to include your name and address for easy identification by the impending snatch squads.....

Actually your supposed to give valid name/email or they bin them automatically.

I've used it a few times and it does work but times to reply varies.

Nuttzz · 21-07-2005 04:24PM

Sarky wrote:

If I suddenly stop posting, you'll know what happened...

Photo taken outside sarkys house at 16:26

solas · 21-07-2005 04:25PM

For those too lazy, Ireland is just about to pass into law the rights for the CIA to detain people in secret, search and seize property, read your personal details (bank details for example) and ship you off to USA if they convict you of a crime in America (being there is optional).

just out of curiosity Hobbes, is Ireland the only nation which has passed such a law or has America imposed similiar laws on other countries?

Hobbes · 21-07-2005 04:44PM

From what I have read so far, we have signed in one that "offers a better relationship" with the US.

Catsmokinpot · 21-07-2005 05:27PM

someones been sold out

oh wait its us :eek:

Catsmokinpot · 21-07-2005 05:28PM

Nuttzz wrote:

Photo taken outside sarkys house at 16:26

rofl

Blisterman · 21-07-2005 06:08PM

I'd much rather have this possibility, than have more terrorist attacks.

Guzzler · 21-07-2005 06:47PM

Anyone with any common sense know that our government doesn't have the abiltity or the resources to protect us from international terrorists. Just today WIT announced that 10 Pakistani students enrolled in 2003 have vanished. The chances are they are perfectly decent people but it shows how vunerable we are. Ireland has always relied on other countries for protection as in WWII. I for one am pleased that the govt is cooperating with the CIA and possibly MI5/Mossad because our own military intelligence agency doesn't have the same experience and expertise as those that are dealing with terrorists for the last 30 years.

I think this is just another case of the usual anti-American idiots, the same breed of fool that went around years ago lauding the Soviet Union as a utopian society. Even this week they got all huffed up because Gen Richard Myers was around. They were alot less active when Yasser Arafat (Terrorist Rat/socialist icon) was wearing the face off Bertie on the steps of Leinster House.

These lads really have some unresolved issues.

Kernel · 21-07-2005 07:05PM

Blisterman wrote:

I'd much rather have this possibility, than have more terrorist attacks.

There were no terrorist attacks on Ireland since RIRA days.

Stark · 21-07-2005 08:17PM

Guzzler wrote:

I think this is just another case of the usual anti-American idiots, the same breed of fool that went around years ago lauding the Soviet Union as a utopian society.

Well for all its petty faults, I quite liked Irish society.

Blisterman wrote:

I'd much rather have this possibility, than have more terrorist attacks.

To be honest I'd happily live with the remote chance of being killed by terrorists than to be stripped of my human rights. I stand a far greater chance of being killed on Irish roads but that doesn't stop me from travelling places, it's one primary example of how freedom is much more valuable than safety. Life will always be a risky game, it may not always be an enjoyable one.

Kernel · 21-07-2005 09:58PM

Guzzler wrote:

Ireland has always relied on other countries for protection as in WWII.

What are you talking about? What countries protected Ireland during WW2?!?!?

stagolee · 21-07-2005 10:41PM

Guzzler wrote:

Anyone with any common sense know that our government doesn't have the abiltity or the resources to protect us from international terrorists.

Neither the English nor the American governments have all that hot a track record in this area either as you will know if you have seen the news in the last 5 years.
In fact there is little evidence that these tactics of removing citezens rights have any effect on terrorism. The simple fact is that even if you brought in internment without charge and mandatory id cards it still would not make it significantly more difficult for a suicide bomber to strike.
But then from the point of view of those in power more controll of the populace is always a good thing. Not that I think Bertie is likley to "dissapear" us because we know too much, we know most of our politicians are crooked bastards and they know we know it, no one seems to care, everyones happy.
What worries me here is that although our crooks in suits wouldn't be bothered locking you up for nothing much or wouldn't have the balls to do it anyhow, the guys they have handed the badge and the gun to (the U.S) have a proven track record for locking up people with no evidence of guilt and then keeping them locked up presumably so they dont kick up a fuss on release.

Guzzler · 21-07-2005 11:29PM

stagolee wrote:

Neither the English nor the American governments have all that hot a track record in this area either as you will know if you have seen the news in the last 5 years.
In fact there is little evidence that these tactics of removing citezens rights have any effect on terrorism. The simple fact is that even if you brought in internment without charge and mandatory id cards it still would not make it significantly more difficult for a suicide bomber to strike.
But then from the point of view of those in power more controll of the populace is always a good thing. Not that I think Bertie is likley to "dissapear" us because we know too much, we know most of our politicians are crooked bastards and they know we know it, no one seems to care, everyones happy.
What worries me here is that although our crooks in suits wouldn't be bothered locking you up for nothing much or wouldn't have the balls to do it anyhow, the guys they have handed the badge and the gun to (the U.S) have a proven track record for locking up people with no evidence of guilt and then keeping them locked up presumably so they dont kick up a fuss on release.

To be honest the fact that there hasn't been a major terrorist attack on US soil since 2001 shows that US intelligence is doing something right (or being very very lucky)on the homeland security front. The UK has a less integrated Muslim population which is undoubtedly harder to infiltrate. The thing is its nigh on impossible to stop a suicide bomber as Israel have found out. But suicide bombers are only the gullible halfwits at the end of the line, you have the planners, the financiers, the people with the technical know how.

The current situation is that any terrorists/terrorist sympathizers/jihad preaching cleric can stay here while the UK is planning to blacklist any arriving into the UK and deport those already there. Without this there is nothing to stop them coming here. I feel that it will deter these sort of people from coming here. Its like an extradition agreemen, no one wants this country to be like a Brazil for Jihadists.

Guzzler · 21-07-2005 11:36PM

Kernel wrote:

What are you talking about? What countries protected Ireland during WW2?!?!?

Its a well known fact that Hitler toyed with the idea of using Ireland as a staging post for the invasion of GB. As far as I can remember he called it Operation Cabbage Patch. The irish Govt at the time had beefed up defences (It even took the armoured car that accompanied MC to Beal na Blath out of a museum

). Churchill also planned to invade to nip Hs plan in the bud. There are probably some people who would have preferred Hitler to invade but GBs threat was enough to keep them at bay.

stagolee · 21-07-2005 11:49PM

Guzzler wrote:

To be honest the fact that there hasn't been a major terrorist attack on US soil since 2001 shows that US intelligence is doing something right (or being very very lucky)on the homeland security front. The UK has a less integrated Muslim population which is undoubtedly harder to infiltrate. The thing is its nigh on impossible to stop a suicide bomber as Israel have found out. But suicide bombers are only the gullible halfwits at the end of the line, you have the planners, the financiers, the people with the technical know how.

The current situation is that any terrorists/terrorist sympathizers/jihad preaching cleric can stay here while the UK is planning to blacklist any arriving into the UK and deport those already there. Without this there is nothing to stop them coming here. I feel that it will deter these sort of people from coming here. Its like an extradition agreemen, no one wants this country to be like a Brazil for Jihadists.

I can see your point and I must agree that this recent development will probably act as a deterent to fundamentalists looking to make a base in this country but I would be much happier if we kept our justice and security apparatus in house so to speak.
Surely an garda siochanna would be as capable as the CIA of monitoring, arresting and if neccessary deporting any who are involved in terrorist activities if they were provided all the neccessary information by the CIA on those they feel are suspect. At least in this way policies put in place now would not be open for abuse by the U.S. in the future if the situation changes in some unforseen way.
I suppose what I'm trying to say in a nutshell is that extradition treaties are all well and good but allowing a foreign countries security service to forceably remove our citezens from the country is not a wise move for any country.

OfflerCrocGod · 21-07-2005 11:54PM

Guzzler wrote:

Its a well known fact that Hitler toyed with the idea of using Ireland as a staging post for the invasion of GB. As far as I can remember he called it Operation Cabbage Patch. The irish Govt at the time had beefed up defences (It even took the armoured car that accompanied MC to Beal na Blath out of a museum ). Churchill also planned to invade to nip Hs plan in the bud. There are probably some people who would have preferred Hitler to invade but GBs threat was enough to keep them at bay.

That plan was a pie in the sky dream they didn't have the resources to invade from France and taking over Ireland wouldn't have changed that.

fightin irish · 22-07-2005 12:01AM

stagolee wrote:

Surely an garda siochanna would be as capable as the CIA of monitoring, arresting and if neccessary deporting any who are involved in terrorist activities if they were provided all the neccessary information by the CIA on those they feel are suspect..

Fair point BUT...What about the guy Ireland agreed to give asylum to, He was one of the loons that was involved in the church of Bethleham(excuse my description) siege about 2 years ago...An agreement was reached and many of these pricks were shipped of to countrys in the EU....under an extreme survillance programme run by the Army Intelligence squad(east desk or something). SO...

The C.I.A./F.B.I ring our so called intelligence agency asking why this goon was swanning around Spain for a month unfollowed, unsupervised, uneverything....they didnt even know he had been..gone nevermind came back(not sure if i have all the correct details here IMO)

Anyways after churning over this new bill i've come to the conclusion that there is seemingly 200 or so ACTIVE muslim extremists living LEGALLY in ireland,(according to news repots?) I can only assume that this bill is there MAINLY to lift these guys whenever or if ever needed. If i dont think that thats what this bill's main purpose is for then yes i would be deeply disgusted.

stagolee · 22-07-2005 12:15AM

fightin irish wrote:

Fair point BUT...What about the guy Ireland agreed to give asylum to, He was one of the loons that was involved in the church of Bethleham(excuse my description) siege about 2 years ago...An agreement was reached and many of these pricks were shipped of to countrys in the EU....under an extreme survillance programme run by the Army Intelligence squad(east desk or something). SO...

The C.I.A./F.B.I ring our so called intelligence agency asking why this goon was swanning around Spain for a month unfollowed, unsupervised, uneverything....they didnt even know he had been..gone nevermind came back(not sure if i have all the correct details here IMO)

Anyways after churning over this new bill i've come to the conclusion that there is seemingly 200 or so ACTIVE muslim extremists living LEGALLY in ireland,(according to news repots?) I can only assume that this bill is there MAINLY to lift these guys whenever or if ever needed. If i dont think that thats what this bill's main purpose is for then yes i would be deeply disgusted.

ah tis a sad state we're in if we can't even rely on our own security services to monitor or arrest people. I understand that it costs an incredibly large amount to build and maintain a powerfull intelligence network like the U.S. has but sureley when they share such intelligence with us (should we decide to) we should be capable of acting on it. I mean what does it amount to apart from "Here Miley , see him ,grab him Miley, I'll give ye a packet of Tayto" job done , terrorist in custody.

Hobbes · 22-07-2005 07:45AM

Guzzler wrote:

To be honest the fact that there hasn't been a major terrorist attack on US soil since 2001 shows that US intelligence is doing something right

They haven't been attacked by Alien Polar bears either, so they must be doing something right there too.

Why would they need to attack? AQ have nothing to gain from it. US would just start interning all the Muslim population and go attack another country if an attack was to ever take place. Terrorism takes the easiest form of attack that will induce the most terror.

The US is already worked up into a paranoid frenzy, AQ don't have to do crap to them, they are doing it to themselves. Take the bombs that didn't quite go off yesterday. On the news a lot of the Brits are "Ahh sure your scared, but wtf I have a life to live". Meanwhile in US NYC have imposed mandatory searches of all bags and Bush got his patriot act extended yesterday for 10 years with all the extra extensions they put into it.

What about the guy Ireland agreed to give asylum to,

Wouldn't be covered under the treaty under the exclusion rule as far as I can see.

You have a link to your so called 200 extremists in Ireland?

Anyone want to know whats happening to your rights?

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