Anyone want to know whats happening to your rights?

Hobbes

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=3078211

There is information on that thread to complain if you feel strongly about. Felt it needed to be posted to a wider audience in light of the changes they plan to make.

For those too lazy, Ireland is just about to pass into law the rights for the CIA to detain people in secret, search and seize property, read your personal details (bank details for example) and ship you off to USA if they convict you of a crime in America (being there is optional).

Deadwing

(from south park the movie)
Gregory: This is about censorship! About freedom of speech!
kid: Lets go play tetherball!

toiletduck

i pi$$ed off with it but now understand why americans dont wana sign up to the ICC

Dades

Don't commit a crime and you should be fine.

Hobbes

The Atheist wrote:

Don't commit a crime and you should be fine.

How would you know? US declares you have commited a crime and they can then take you in for secret questioning on Irish soil, or ship you to the US.

tails2

The Atheist wrote:

Don't commit a crime and you should be fine.

apparently not, as it says in the posts and links.... the US are notoriuos for arresting citizens that are innocent... so...

YeatsCounty

There really should be a :shakehead: smilie.

dregin

The way something like this was let pass by so easily without a referendum is pretty maddening.

YeatsCounty

dregin wrote:

The way something like this was let pass by so easily without a referendum is pretty maddening.

It's Michael McDowell we're talking about here, did you expect anything else from him?

*sigh*

grumpytrousers

YeatsCounty wrote:

It's Michael McDowell we're talking about here, did you expect anything else from him?

*sigh*

If it's not a Catch22 it's something like it...

The only way we can preserve our liberty and way of life is to, um, give up our liberty and way of life.

One could make the point that as long as measures like this are brought in, they DO whittle away at our way of life and thus terrorists ARE having an effect and ARE 'winning'...

MorningStar

THey have been able to do this for a while it's not like it's an amazing new change. Scarey yes but they have to be in Irish custody first. So it's not like the CIA can kick in your door and just take you away. I am more worried by the fact irish authorities don't check any US army planes. Shannon would be at a loss if they didn't fly through there.
It easy to have moral outrage but ultimately govenrments have to make choices that are morally questionable for the greater good. Should they stop the US army using shannon it would mean mass unemployment in the area along with a loss of services etc... A tough choice that we get the government to do. The Devil does God's work because somebody has to rule hell.

YeatsCounty

grumpytrousers wrote:

If it's not a Catch22 it's something like it...

The only way we can preserve our liberty and way of life is to, um, give up our liberty and way of life.

One could make the point that as long as measures like this are brought in, they DO whittle away at our way of life and thus terrorists ARE having an effect and ARE 'winning'...

Yeah, that line of thinking over tougher anti-terror laws has been in the public arena since 9/11. It's depressing, give up much or our liberty and freedom as citizens of a democratic country in order to preserve the remaining freedoms, or don't act and allow possible terrorists to act at will because their rights demand it.

There should have been a public debate about this. The fact that there wasn't, coupled with the USA's detainment of uncharged suspects worries me.
If we're a democratic country, we should have been notified of this measure by the Government before, not after the fact.

(Yes, I know there isn't going to be a massive sweep of this country by CIA agents tomorrow, but one "innocent" person is enough)

Diss

I think i sold my rights back in the sixties for an apple and a cinema ticket.

Gilgamesh

Morningstar,

what you are saying is that we should put down our rights so that a sh!tty little airport can survive?

Hobbes

MorningStar wrote:

Should they stop the US army using shannon it would mean mass unemployment in the area along with a loss of services etc... A tough choice that we get the government to do. The Devil does God's work because somebody has to rule hell.

What if those planes had on them prisoners who haven't been charged of anything were being shipped off to other countries to be tortured (documented). Would you feel happier about that?

What if though those actions Ireland then becomes a target to AQ because we let this happen? You feel better now?

Nuttzz

There is information on that thread to complain if you feel strongly about. Felt it needed to be posted to a wider audience in light of the changes they plan to make.

For those too lazy, Ireland is just about to pass into law the rights for the CIA to detain people in secret, search and seize property, read your personal details (bank details for example) and ship you off to USA if they convict you of a crime in America (being there is optional).

If the bill passes can we expect you to launch a supreme court objection to this, or are you just going to pi$$ and moan about it on an anonymous website?

Hobbes

Nuttzz wrote:

If the bill passes can we expect you to launch a supreme court objection to this, or are you just going to pi$$ and moan about it on an anonymous website?

I have already complained to my TD. Thanks for asking though. What have you done lately?

I notice you skipped over my questions.

Nuttzz

Hobbes wrote:

I have already complained to my TD. Thanks for asking though. What have you done lately?.

i have no problem with this proposal...

Hobbes wrote:

I notice you skipped over my questions.

which are?? you have yet to direct any question at me in this thread.....

Dades

tails2 wrote:

apparently not, as it says in the posts and links.... the US are notoriuos for arresting citizens that are innocent... so...

I know this is a flagship issue for some people - but lets face it, there's usually no smoke without fire....

You and me ain't gonna be arrested without a reason.


"But you can't have babies, Stan."
"Don't you oppress me!"

Hobbes

Nuttzz wrote:

which are?? you have yet to direct any question at me in this thread.....

Apologies, it was someone else.

You and me ain't gonna be arrested without a reason.

Well the bill is being extended for all things, not terrorist acts. So if a bill in the US is passed making a certain action illegal in the US and not Ireland, the US would according to the bill still be allowed charge you.

Prehaps one good example is the Dmitry Sklyarov case*

[edit] For those who aren't aware. Sklyarov in Russia created a program for reading protected eBooks (actually it was the company he worked for). Not a crime in Russia but a crime in America. Later on while at a conference in America he was arrested and jailed for nearly a year for his actions in Russia.

][cEMAN**

The Atheist wrote:

You and me ain't gonna be arrested without a reason.

About 20,000 immigrants, who have not been charged with any crime, are currently in prison in the US. In two recent US Supreme Court cases, the US Government argued that US citizens could be imprisoned indefinitely without charge if the president designated them as "enemy combatants".

even if what the suspect is accused of is not a crime in Ireland.

Are you fully aware of the laws in America? You might be smoking and you don't even know it.

This is complete bull**** that should never happen just because some ministers want to look good in the eyes of GW. The world is seemingly becoming the lapdogs of the craziest man in the world.

But your reply bothers me, and tbh I hope when people start getting lifted for no reason, you're one of the first. I hear Guantanamo Bay's nice this time of year :rolleyes:

shellby

MorningStar wrote:

THey have been able to do this for a while it's not like it's an amazing new change. Scarey yes but they have to be in Irish custody first. So it's not like the CIA can kick in your door and just take you away. I am more worried by the fact irish authorities don't check any US army planes. Shannon would be at a loss if they didn't fly through there.
It easy to have moral outrage but ultimately govenrments have to make choices that are morally questionable for the greater good. Should they stop the US army using shannon it would mean mass unemployment in the area along with a loss of services etc... A tough choice that we get the government to do. The Devil does God's work because somebody has to rule hell.

and the damage and destruction caused to peoples lives because of those planes is justified by this i think not

Dades

' wrote:

[cEMAN**']But your reply bothers me, and tbh I hope when people start getting lifted for no reason, you're one of the first. I hear Guantanamo Bay's nice this time of year :rolleyes:

You don't happen to live in a bunker filled with automatic weapons and dried food, perchance?

Well just as well they banned smoking in pubs here then. Otherwise think of all the Irish on holidays that would have been arrested for having smoked in pubs here when it's illegal in parts of the US.

Hobbes

The Atheist wrote:

You don't happen to live in a bunker filled with automatic weapons and dried food, perchance?

One of the intresting rebuttals coming from people is to seem to think that people who disagree with this are doing so because they might be carted away.

Far from it, and thinking that way says more about those who seem to think this is a good thing then those opposing it.

Guy:Incognito

Hobbes wrote:

How would you know? US declares you have commited a crime and they can then take you in for secret questioning on Irish soil, or ship you to the US.

Cool, free holiday. Seriously though, I think your over simplifying. Firstly Shipping people into their country who havnt commited a crime purely to lock them up isnt exactl in their best interests. Plus if they start abducting Iriah citizens out of Ireand and locking them in US jails I'm sure the UN would be a bit concerned. SO as someone posted already, dont commit a crime.


Personnally I would support them if they fit a few junkies and scumbags form here up for crimes in the US, get them the hell off our streets.

The Atheist wrote:

I know this is a flagship issue for some people - but lets face it, there's usually no smoke without fire....

You and me ain't gonna be arrested without a reason.

Exactly. If we're all going to be honest a small bit of fittins up gets done in every countries, and for the greater good. For instance, If someone I knew was raped and the guy got away with it, the gards know who he is but cant prove it enough to convict, I'd have no problem with him taking the blame for something else to get him locked up.

People (with a very small minority of mistakes etc) dont get arrested for nothing.The Gards know the majority of criminals and scumbags and these are the people who get leaned on if anything happens, not random people walking the street. You'll always fnd that someone getting arrested has a long record of minor things and theres always a few things everyone knowes they did but cant prove.

kasintahan

That's it I'm buying an island in the south Pacific and moving.
All this nwa legislation is really grating with me.

kasintahan

Stekelly wrote:

Cool, free holiday. Seriously though, I think your over simplifying. Firstly Shipping people into their country who havnt commited a crime purely to lock them up isnt exactl in their best interests.

It is, if you have power and oppose the US.

Stekelly wrote:

Plus if they start abducting Iriah citizens out of Ireand and locking them in US jails I'm sure the UN would be a bit concerned. SO as someone posted already, dont commit a crime.

Iraq? WMD? Guantanamo? The UN being concerned doesn't bother the US.

Stekelly wrote:

Personnally I would support them if they fit a few junkies and scumbags form here up for crimes in the US, get them the hell off our streets.

It isn't junkies and criminals the US is worried about (au contraire, theire drug companies rely on them for testing and sale of therapies). It's the anti war campaigners, the politcal activists, the European industrialists that have something to fear.

Dades

Hobbes wrote:

One of the intresting rebuttals coming from people is to seem to think that people who disagree with this are doing so because they might be carted away.

I know we both know that no-one here is in any danger of getting "lifted". We don't fit the profile.

Anyone who is mildly concerned about it wouldn't be spouting off against the plan on a message board probably monitored by the CIA :eek:

Far from it, and thinking that way says more about those who seem to think this is a good thing then those opposing it.

TBH I don't care.

The world's going mad and there's not a damn thing anyone can do to stop it.

Hobbes

Stekelly wrote:

CFirstly Shipping people into their country who havnt commited a crime purely to lock them up isnt exactl in their best interests.

Which is why the person has to be convicted of a crime before shipping them. The point being is what is defined as an actual crime in the US vs what is in Ireland. I gave the Skyalov as an example. That guy had never commited a crime in the US but was jailed in the US because his previous actions of his company in Russia were deemed a crime.

If it had happened in Ireland with the current laws in place this guy would of been on the first plane to the US.

Plus if they start abducting Iriah citizens out of Ireand and locking them in US jails I'm sure the UN would be a bit concerned.

Not if both countries have agreed this is legal to do.

It's the anti war campaigners, the politcal activists, the European industrialists that have something to fear.

I would say the industrialists would have more to fear. Industrial espionage is more rampant then jailing some hippy.

Guy:Incognito

kasintahan wrote:

Iraq? WMD? Guantanamo? The UN being concerned doesn't bother the US.
.

Last I checked we werent in a country run by a dictator who is murderng thousands of his own people, trying to annex our neighbours and proclaiming death to americans.

Dades

kasintahan wrote:

It isn't junkies and criminals the US is worried about (au contraire, theire drug companies rely on them for testing and sale of therapies). It's the anti war campaigners, the politcal activists, the European industrialists that have something to fear.

Don't flatter them.

The US has enough anti-war activists without having to import them.

Guy:Incognito

Hobbes wrote:

Which is why the person has to be convicted of a crime before shipping them. The point being is what is defined as an actual crime in the US vs what is in Ireland. I gave the Skyalov as an example. That guy had never commited a crime in the US but was jailed in the US because his previous actions of his company in Russia were deemed a crime.

TBH, if someone is convicted of a crime here that the US deems serious enough to want to extradite him into their own country to be locked up at their taxpayers expense, I'm quite happy to have him out of our country.

Hobbes wrote:

Not if both countries have agreed this is legal to do..

No one is giving the US a right to look through the phonebooks, stab their finger in a page and kidknap the random person they land on.

Hobbes

Stekelly wrote:

TBH, if someone is convicted of a crime here that the US deems serious enough to want to extradite him into their own country to be locked up at their taxpayers expense, I'm quite happy to have him out of our country.

Actually they don't have to be convicted of a crime here. It doesn't even need to be a crime here. There was another bill that stipulated this but this bill doesn't. The only point where this would apply is if the person was convicted of the crime here and found not guilty, in which case they can't be taken.

Also we the taxpayers pay, not the requester.

Dades

Hobbes wrote:

Which is why the person has to be convicted of a crime before shipping them. The point being is what is defined as an actual crime in the US vs what is in Ireland. I gave the Skyalov as an example. That guy had never commited a crime in the US but was jailed in the US because his previous actions of his company in Russia were deemed a crime.

If it had happened in Ireland with the current laws in place this guy would of been on the first plane to the US.

That Skyalov case reeks of a high-profile warning to would-be copyright thieves.

Are Irish 18 years olds on J1 visas going to be arrested in the States because they drank underage at home according to US law?

Have some perspective people.

MorningStar

shellby wrote:

and the damage and destruction caused to peoples lives because of those planes is justified by this i think not

This also for the others who said similar. I didn't say it was right! What I pointed out is it is very easy to be critical when you don't have the same pressures of running a country. I doesn't quite justify the behaviour but might explain how it happens. Morality is relative to the situation you are in contry to popular belief. It may be a very highbrow view of the situation but that's it.

I am concerned about the planes and contents coming in and out of ireland. The loss of rights would worry me too but I don't think it is much different and will be challanged.

kasintahan

Stekelly wrote:

Last I checked we werent in a country run by a dictator who is murderng thousands of his own people, trying to annex our neighbours and proclaiming death to americans.

Lets not pretend that "war" had anything to do with democracy, other wise we'd see the US in N. Korea tomorrow morning.

The Atheist wrote:

Don't flatter them.

The US has enough anti-war activists without having to import them.

Those, they already have monitered and contained in 100m square caged compounds 10km away from the thing they protest.

Talliesin

The Atheist wrote:

Don't commit a crime and you should be fine.

LOL. Post of the month.

grumpytrousers

People (with a very small minority of mistakes etc) dont get arrested for nothing.The Gards know the majority of criminals and scumbags and these are the people who get leaned on if anything happens, not random people walking the street. You'll always fnd that someone getting arrested has a long record of minor things and theres always a few things everyone knowes they did but cant prove

Jesus wept, man, do the frigging words McBrearty and Morris Tribunal mean ANYTHING to you... :mad:

Hobbes

The Atheist wrote:

That Skyalov case reeks of a high-profile warning to would-be copyright thieves.

If they were in America they would of broken the DCMA law. A law put in place by big businesses to stop people making money. He got arrested because there was money behind the request to have him arrested (and I'd suspect it was somewhat of a fundraiser for the FBI too).

Are Irish 18 years olds on J1 visas going to be arrested in the States because they drank underage at home according to US law?

Nice try but not the same thing.

Sarky

Just registered a complaint on the government website. Damn, it felt good to let off some steam. I recommend everyone do it. You'll get rid of a little stress AND do something important for the country!

Nuttzz

Sarky wrote:

Just registered a complaint on the government website. Damn, it felt good to let off some steam. I recommend everyone do it. You'll get rid of a little stress AND do something important for the country!

make sure to include your name and address for easy identification by the impending snatch squads.....

Sarky

If I suddenly stop posting, you'll know what happened...

Hobbes

Nuttzz wrote:

make sure to include your name and address for easy identification by the impending snatch squads.....

Actually your supposed to give valid name/email or they bin them automatically.

I've used it a few times and it does work but times to reply varies.

Nuttzz

Sarky wrote:

If I suddenly stop posting, you'll know what happened...

Photo taken outside sarkys house at 16:26

solas

For those too lazy, Ireland is just about to pass into law the rights for the CIA to detain people in secret, search and seize property, read your personal details (bank details for example) and ship you off to USA if they convict you of a crime in America (being there is optional).

just out of curiosity Hobbes, is Ireland the only nation which has passed such a law or has America imposed similiar laws on other countries?

Hobbes

From what I have read so far, we have signed in one that "offers a better relationship" with the US.

Catsmokinpot

someones been sold out oh wait its us :eek:

Catsmokinpot

Nuttzz wrote:

Photo taken outside sarkys house at 16:26

rofl

Blisterman

I'd much rather have this possibility, than have more terrorist attacks.

Guzzler

Anyone with any common sense know that our government doesn't have the abiltity or the resources to protect us from international terrorists. Just today WIT announced that 10 Pakistani students enrolled in 2003 have vanished. The chances are they are perfectly decent people but it shows how vunerable we are. Ireland has always relied on other countries for protection as in WWII. I for one am pleased that the govt is cooperating with the CIA and possibly MI5/Mossad because our own military intelligence agency doesn't have the same experience and expertise as those that are dealing with terrorists for the last 30 years.

I think this is just another case of the usual anti-American idiots, the same breed of fool that went around years ago lauding the Soviet Union as a utopian society. Even this week they got all huffed up because Gen Richard Myers was around. They were alot less active when Yasser Arafat (Terrorist Rat/socialist icon) was wearing the face off Bertie on the steps of Leinster House.

These lads really have some unresolved issues.

Kernel

Blisterman wrote:

I'd much rather have this possibility, than have more terrorist attacks.

There were no terrorist attacks on Ireland since RIRA days.