Live 8 Tickets, eBay, Civil Rights and Morality..

Altheus · 16-06-2005 08:47PM #1

Right, I think everyone knows the situation currently with the recent drama involving the sale of Live 8 tickets on eBay.

I work in eBay, so I've got a very good idea of how the internal operations work on the site, and procedures taken.

Live 8 tickets, are essentially extended invitations to the gig. Unlike something like English premiership football tickets, they are transferable, meaning that they can be freely traded without informing the owner (that'd be the organisers of Live 8).

The way eBay works is such that it will try and extend the right of the consumer and salesperson to the limitation of law, without a moral prejudice. This is written into it's policies and user agreement. However, there is one exception, that is the VERO legal team. This a team set up so that rights owners can request that items are taken down immediately (i.e. counterfeits, copies and items that are not for resale).

Legally, while eBay can ultimately exercise it's might over it's users automatically, the majority of the decisions made here are largely influenced by popular opinion and legal standpoints.

For instance, if Bob Geldof had the foresight to ensure it would be illegal to sell the tickets for any amount of money, then eBay would have been more willing to take them down, after all the few hundred tickets is pennies in the pond relative to what eBay makes every day.

Now, when eBay took the rather precarious position of trying to protect the rights of the actual user according to it's own rules and legal obligations, in the knowledge it would amount to huge amounts of negative PR. In the end it was the negative PR, and not any legal standpoint that made them change their attitude, but was it the right move to make?

Here's my question, were eBay right to give into the outcry of Sir Bob, or should it have protected it's users right?

joe. · 16-06-2005 08:52PM

Selling free tickets to something like that is very low I think. Ebay shouldn't allow these kind of sales as it just encourages people to pull stunts like this while people who really want to go will miss out or be forced to pay for tickets.

Wertz · 16-06-2005 08:55PM

Personally speaking, Geldof's rants on this whole thing bored the arse off of me...
The people organizsing this thing know the story in this day and age when it comes to big gigs and free/cheap tickets....they created the problem IMO.
eBay are faultless, and this has been bad publicity for them....they should've stuck to their guns regardless....damaging users rights in the face of "public pressure" otherwise known as media frenzy/witchhunt was a bad move in the grander scheme of things.
All in all I'd say eBay have come off the worse in this...

[edit] Oh and why pull stuff like this, but not the girl selling her virginity or other high profile auctions in similar bad taste?

Cucullan · 16-06-2005 09:02PM

"It's not a question of morality, but rather one of legality, and it should be left to the courts."

This isn't quite correct, I read in the Indo today that selling the tickets isn't illegal and Ebay did nothing wrong so if someone wants to pay for free tickets bigger the fools them. Personally though I think trying to sell free tickets for a concert like that is pretty sad.

Larianne · 16-06-2005 09:06PM

Just a quick question, I haven't much into the whole live 8 thing as Geldof just annoys me, but are all the artist doing everything for free, yeah? Paying for their own flihgts over etc etc??

GOAT_BOY · 16-06-2005 09:11PM

geldof is a muppet!!

This so called lottery for the tickets is a farce!!! i'd love to see pink floyd play but i can't because tickets aren't even available over here.

They should have just sold the tickets live every other event and raised ALOT more money.

It;'s a ****in joke!!!

ziggy · 16-06-2005 09:21PM

This post has been deleted.

Capt'n Midnight · 16-06-2005 09:54PM

The whole excerise is to raise awareness, so as a publicity stunt it works. Also if people actually stop to think about the morality of selling the tickets on eBay versus the morality of people dying because funds are dierted to interest payments , that also works.

So it works for me.

Tar.Aldarion · 16-06-2005 09:59PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

The whole excerise is to raise awareness, so as a publicity stunt it works. Also if people actually stop to think about the morality of selling the tickets on eBay versus the morality of people dying because funds are dierted to interest payments , that also works.

So it works for me.

agreeage
but i dont think ebay should have stopped people selling them
poeple should just not have sold them themselves

Healio · 16-06-2005 10:01PM

Id have no problem if the money raised was given to charity.

Rew · 16-06-2005 10:09PM

I reported items that were illeagle to sell under irish law. EBay got back to me after about 2 days and after the items were sold. The email was very polite and very pointless. They wouldn't tell me what action they had taken or even if an action was taken. Didn't even ask what specfically was illeagle about the items.

I get the feeling with EBay that they will carry on regardless with anything till they get a slap on the wrist.

Tar.Aldarion · 16-06-2005 10:15PM

well they are selling people on there 'want my friendship' lol

GOAT_BOY · 16-06-2005 11:14PM

Rew wrote:

I reported items that were illeagle to sell under irish law. EBay got back to me after about 2 days and after the items were sold. The email was very polite and very pointless. They wouldn't tell me what action they had taken or even if an action was taken. Didn't even ask what specfically was illeagle about the items.

I get the feeling with EBay that they will carry on regardless with anything till they get a slap on the wrist.

eBay are not allowing people sell the tickets anymore, anyone who does is suspended and the auction is ended.

jimmycrackcorm · 17-06-2005 02:18AM

Geldof was a muppet for blaming Ebay and insisting people should attack the auctions. I wonder if people advertised using mobile numbers for tickets would he insist everyone ring the speaking clock on their mobiles to jam the networks. Such an ego - unbelievable.

de5p0i1er · 17-06-2005 06:21AM

eBay were the victim of a media witch hunt ppl were trolling the site with fake bids on live 8 tickets and the site crashed because of what Geldof said. He then admits that he was going to ask hackers to attack the site if they didn't stop selling tickets. All eBay did is provide a service, they can't be held responceable for ever item sold on there site.

Rew · 17-06-2005 09:25AM

GOAT_BOY wrote:

eBay are not allowing people sell the tickets anymore, anyone who does is suspended and the auction is ended.

I know, the items I complained about wern't the tickets, it was just an example.

Sleepy · 17-06-2005 09:45AM

I think ebay should have a policy banning the resale of concert tickets above face value in the first place so in the case of Live 8 tickets:£1.50 should have been the maximum allowable selling price.

Geldof's a maverick, always has been. It's why Live Aid was so successful and managed to do so much good with the donations it received. The first money they ever spent was on breaking a trucking Cartel. When Geldof heard the ridiculous haulage charges to ship stuff to Africa instead of just putting up with it like all the other charities were doing he managed to charter a number of ships as Live Aid's own for less than he would have spent on shipping and in doing so was able to offer free shipping to all the other charities ensuring that their money was better spent too. When pirate copies of Live Aid started floating around Ebay, Bob got the artists involved in the original show to agree to the DVD release (something which had initially been blocked by legal contracts by most of the bands).

Ultimately, Geldof believes he has the right to behave in a boorish manner if it means that the job will get done and it's hard to argue with him on this. The man has saved hundreds of thousands of lives by being obstinate, daring to do what others wouldn't and acting in any manner he believes will improve the lives of those suffering. Think he's a berk if you like but I admire the man and I think it's very difficult to argue with what he's accomplished.

Sleepy · 17-06-2005 09:50AM

de5p0i1er wrote:

eBay were the victim of a media witch hunt ppl were trolling the site with fake bids on live 8 tickets and the site crashed because of what Geldof said. He then admits that he was going to ask hackers to attack the site if they didn't stop selling tickets. All eBay did is provide a service, they can't be held responceable for ever item sold on there site.

That depends on whether you want to hold them morally, or legally, responsible.

Legally, it's acceptable. Morally, I don't think anyone can believe it acceptable to make a profit off the back of a charity event (even though this actually happened in the American Live Aid! No-one at the British event was paid, however many of the technicians and crew at the American gig invoiced Live Aid for the gig). Ebay were right to remove the tickets from their site and tbh I think they deserve the negative PR for allowing ticket touting on their site in the first place.

RainyDay · 17-06-2005 09:51AM

GOAT_BOY wrote:

They should have just sold the tickets live every other event and raised ALOT more money.

You do realise that Live8 is NOT a fundraising exercise, don't you?

The kind of money that could be raised from any concert regardless of how you sell the tickets is just a drop in the ocean in terms of what is needed in Africa. Live8 is aimed at bringing about the structural & political changes needed to change the system.

Kernel · 17-06-2005 09:52AM

Sleepy wrote:

I think ebay should have a policy banning the resale of concert tickets above face value in the first place so in the case of Live 8 tickets:£1.50 should have been the maximum allowable selling price.

Ultimately, Geldof believes he has the right to behave in a boorish manner if it means that the job will get done and it's hard to argue with him on this. The man has saved hundreds of thousands of lives by being obstinate, daring to do what others wouldn't and acting in any manner he believes will improve the lives of those suffering. Think he's a berk if you like but I admire the man and I think it's very difficult to argue with what he's accomplished.

Yeah I totally agree. Fair play to the man, he's done a lot of good in his life, and has raised awareness of the issue to the extent that we can now talk about eliminating third world poverty.

Hobbes · 17-06-2005 09:59AM

Sleepy wrote:

I think ebay should have a policy banning the resale of concert tickets above face value in the first place so in the case of Live 8 tickets:£1.50 should have been the maximum allowable selling price.

Exactly. Ebay profit off these touts and live8 was just a bit more immoral then the usual stuff they get up to.

Users rights? If they didn't want the tickets they shouldn't of tried to get them or give them away rather the gouging people who actually wanted the tickets.

Serbian · 17-06-2005 10:05AM

There are a number of interesting points in here. I think the first point is that Live 8 and Geldof caused this problem themselves. This was the most obvious thing that was going to happen when they were giving out the tickets for so cheap, and they should have introduced measures to prevent it.

Secondly, while it is legal to sell tickets, I was under the impression that touting was illegal in Ireland at least, no? ebay has just pushed the business of ticket touting to a new level. When there is a product with such limited supply and extraordinary demand (e.g. the U2 concert - take a look on ebay to see how much people expect for their tickets) prices are going to become extortionate. This is what ebay likes to see. Bigger Prices == Bigger Commission. It's unrealistic to suggest that ebay should cap the price people can sell tickets for. Having said that, I do agree with the sentiment of the posts made by Sleepy.

I don't know if the timing of this was significant. ebay have just launched officially in Ireland and then someone like Geldof comes along making demands.

Altheus · 17-06-2005 10:51AM

Funnily enough, it is the promoters who decided the issue with what price the tickets can be sold for. Ultimately if there is a legality issue regarding a listing, we must be informed by the party who's being infringed, in this case, Bob Geldof et ál.

For instance, in the US, most tickets are banned if they sell for above face value, this is monitored not by eBay, but by the members, and by the promotors and companies. eBay as usual is obliged to take action according to law within 48 hours. Essentially every report would be considered a legal injunction.

in the UK, Ticketmaster and the promoters have no problem with this. I personally think it is bullshít, but the fact is it's an auction, so the price people are willing to pay, is the price they sell for. That said, the staff here scrutinize every ticket listing for other possible faults and take them down for that.

Another case is to be made for the Livestrong bands. Again, Nike and Livestrong foundation have only ever made requests for counterfeit goods to be taken down, and not band that were going upward of twenty quid.

billstraighten · 17-06-2005 11:14AM

absolutly not no way

WhiteWashMan · 17-06-2005 12:22PM

i think its a shame that ebay pander to the whim of a few dated rock stars.
the event is not about charity, so in this case, it cant be an issue of money. so it doesnt matter how much the tickets go for. at the end of the day, if someone is willing to spend the money to buy a ticket at a certain price, then thats their affair.

its not the affair of anyone else.

it is completely legal to sell these tickets if anyone wants to. they were distibuted freely.

GOAT_BOY · 17-06-2005 01:09PM

Hobbes wrote:

Exactly. Ebay profit off these touts and live8 was just a bit more immoral then the usual stuff they get up to.

Users rights? If they didn't want the tickets they shouldn't of tried to get them or give them away rather the gouging people who actually wanted the tickets.

i think people need to learn the facts before posting, eBay DID NOT profit from these listings, they said that any money made would go straight to the live 8 'fund' or whatever.

GOAT_BOY · 17-06-2005 01:11PM

RainyDay wrote:

You do realise that Live8 is NOT a fundraising exercise, don't you?

The kind of money that could be raised from any concert regardless of how you sell the tickets is just a drop in the ocean in terms of what is needed in Africa. Live8 is aimed at bringing about the structural & political changes needed to change the system.

that's besides the point, if they had of sold the tickets like any other gig, then more people could have gone AND they would have made money ASWELL.

Again, i must say, geldof is a muppet

GOAT_BOY · 17-06-2005 01:13PM

Altheus wrote:

Funnily enough, it is the promoters who decided the issue with what price the tickets can be sold for. Ultimately if there is a legality issue regarding a listing, we must be informed by the party who's being infringed, in this case, Bob Geldof et ál.

For instance, in the US, most tickets are banned if they sell for above face value, this is monitored not by eBay, but by the members, and by the promotors and companies. eBay as usual is obliged to take action according to law within 48 hours. Essentially every report would be considered a legal injunction.

in the UK, Ticketmaster and the promoters have no problem with this. I personally think it is bullshít, but the fact is it's an auction, so the price people are willing to pay, is the price they sell for. That said, the staff here scrutinize every ticket listing for other possible faults and take them down for that.

Another case is to be made for the Livestrong bands. Again, Nike and Livestrong foundation have only ever made requests for counterfeit goods to be taken down, and not band that were going upward of twenty quid.

no party is being infringed. The tickets do not belong to gekdof and co, nor do they have any rights to them. The second someone 'won' one of those tickets it became THEIR property. eBay did nothing wrong and did nothing illegal.

Hobbes · 17-06-2005 01:27PM

GOAT_BOY wrote:

i think people need to learn the facts before posting, eBay DID NOT profit from these listings, they said that any money made would go straight to the live 8 'fund' or whatever.

You have to pay ebay to host an auction, so yes they do make a profit.

Rew · 17-06-2005 02:11PM

GOAT_BOY wrote:

i think people need to learn the facts before posting, eBay DID NOT profit from these listings, they said that any money made would go straight to the live 8 'fund' or whatever.

They offered that after a fuss was made.

The General · 17-06-2005 03:00PM

It should be allowed if its not doing anything to effect the money already raised for live 8 then whats the problem, who cares if someone is making money off live 8, if thats the case bob geldof should have had some sense and doubled the prices of tickets in the first place

Live 8 Tickets, eBay, Civil Rights and Morality..

Were eBay right to give into Sir Bob and remove Live 8 tickets? 50 votes

Comments