Live 8 Tickets, eBay, Civil Rights and Morality..

Altheus

Right, I think everyone knows the situation currently with the recent drama involving the sale of Live 8 tickets on eBay.

I work in eBay, so I've got a very good idea of how the internal operations work on the site, and procedures taken.

Live 8 tickets, are essentially extended invitations to the gig. Unlike something like English premiership football tickets, they are transferable, meaning that they can be freely traded without informing the owner (that'd be the organisers of Live 8).

The way eBay works is such that it will try and extend the right of the consumer and salesperson to the limitation of law, without a moral prejudice. This is written into it's policies and user agreement. However, there is one exception, that is the VERO legal team. This a team set up so that rights owners can request that items are taken down immediately (i.e. counterfeits, copies and items that are not for resale).

Legally, while eBay can ultimately exercise it's might over it's users automatically, the majority of the decisions made here are largely influenced by popular opinion and legal standpoints.

For instance, if Bob Geldof had the foresight to ensure it would be illegal to sell the tickets for any amount of money, then eBay would have been more willing to take them down, after all the few hundred tickets is pennies in the pond relative to what eBay makes every day.

Now, when eBay took the rather precarious position of trying to protect the rights of the actual user according to it's own rules and legal obligations, in the knowledge it would amount to huge amounts of negative PR. In the end it was the negative PR, and not any legal standpoint that made them change their attitude, but was it the right move to make?

Here's my question, were eBay right to give into the outcry of Sir Bob, or should it have protected it's users right?

joe.

Selling free tickets to something like that is very low I think. Ebay shouldn't allow these kind of sales as it just encourages people to pull stunts like this while people who really want to go will miss out or be forced to pay for tickets.

Wertz

Personally speaking, Geldof's rants on this whole thing bored the arse off of me...
The people organizsing this thing know the story in this day and age when it comes to big gigs and free/cheap tickets....they created the problem IMO.
eBay are faultless, and this has been bad publicity for them....they should've stuck to their guns regardless....damaging users rights in the face of "public pressure" otherwise known as media frenzy/witchhunt was a bad move in the grander scheme of things.
All in all I'd say eBay have come off the worse in this...

[edit] Oh and why pull stuff like this, but not the girl selling her virginity or other high profile auctions in similar bad taste?

Cucullan

"It's not a question of morality, but rather one of legality, and it should be left to the courts."

This isn't quite correct, I read in the Indo today that selling the tickets isn't illegal and Ebay did nothing wrong so if someone wants to pay for free tickets bigger the fools them. Personally though I think trying to sell free tickets for a concert like that is pretty sad.

Larianne

Just a quick question, I haven't much into the whole live 8 thing as Geldof just annoys me, but are all the artist doing everything for free, yeah? Paying for their own flihgts over etc etc??

GOAT_BOY

geldof is a muppet!!

This so called lottery for the tickets is a farce!!! i'd love to see pink floyd play but i can't because tickets aren't even available over here.

They should have just sold the tickets live every other event and raised ALOT more money.

It;'s a ****in joke!!!

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Capt'n Midnight

The whole excerise is to raise awareness, so as a publicity stunt it works. Also if people actually stop to think about the morality of selling the tickets on eBay versus the morality of people dying because funds are dierted to interest payments , that also works.

So it works for me.

Tar.Aldarion

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

The whole excerise is to raise awareness, so as a publicity stunt it works. Also if people actually stop to think about the morality of selling the tickets on eBay versus the morality of people dying because funds are dierted to interest payments , that also works.

So it works for me.

agreeage
but i dont think ebay should have stopped people selling them
poeple should just not have sold them themselves

Healio

Id have no problem if the money raised was given to charity.

Rew

I reported items that were illeagle to sell under irish law. EBay got back to me after about 2 days and after the items were sold. The email was very polite and very pointless. They wouldn't tell me what action they had taken or even if an action was taken. Didn't even ask what specfically was illeagle about the items.

I get the feeling with EBay that they will carry on regardless with anything till they get a slap on the wrist.

Tar.Aldarion

well they are selling people on there 'want my friendship' lol

GOAT_BOY

Rew wrote:

I reported items that were illeagle to sell under irish law. EBay got back to me after about 2 days and after the items were sold. The email was very polite and very pointless. They wouldn't tell me what action they had taken or even if an action was taken. Didn't even ask what specfically was illeagle about the items.

I get the feeling with EBay that they will carry on regardless with anything till they get a slap on the wrist.

eBay are not allowing people sell the tickets anymore, anyone who does is suspended and the auction is ended.

jimmycrackcorm

Geldof was a muppet for blaming Ebay and insisting people should attack the auctions. I wonder if people advertised using mobile numbers for tickets would he insist everyone ring the speaking clock on their mobiles to jam the networks. Such an ego - unbelievable.

de5p0i1er

eBay were the victim of a media witch hunt ppl were trolling the site with fake bids on live 8 tickets and the site crashed because of what Geldof said. He then admits that he was going to ask hackers to attack the site if they didn't stop selling tickets. All eBay did is provide a service, they can't be held responceable for ever item sold on there site.

Rew

GOAT_BOY wrote:

eBay are not allowing people sell the tickets anymore, anyone who does is suspended and the auction is ended.

I know, the items I complained about wern't the tickets, it was just an example.

Sleepy

I think ebay should have a policy banning the resale of concert tickets above face value in the first place so in the case of Live 8 tickets:£1.50 should have been the maximum allowable selling price.

Geldof's a maverick, always has been. It's why Live Aid was so successful and managed to do so much good with the donations it received. The first money they ever spent was on breaking a trucking Cartel. When Geldof heard the ridiculous haulage charges to ship stuff to Africa instead of just putting up with it like all the other charities were doing he managed to charter a number of ships as Live Aid's own for less than he would have spent on shipping and in doing so was able to offer free shipping to all the other charities ensuring that their money was better spent too. When pirate copies of Live Aid started floating around Ebay, Bob got the artists involved in the original show to agree to the DVD release (something which had initially been blocked by legal contracts by most of the bands).

Ultimately, Geldof believes he has the right to behave in a boorish manner if it means that the job will get done and it's hard to argue with him on this. The man has saved hundreds of thousands of lives by being obstinate, daring to do what others wouldn't and acting in any manner he believes will improve the lives of those suffering. Think he's a berk if you like but I admire the man and I think it's very difficult to argue with what he's accomplished.

Sleepy

de5p0i1er wrote:

eBay were the victim of a media witch hunt ppl were trolling the site with fake bids on live 8 tickets and the site crashed because of what Geldof said. He then admits that he was going to ask hackers to attack the site if they didn't stop selling tickets. All eBay did is provide a service, they can't be held responceable for ever item sold on there site.

That depends on whether you want to hold them morally, or legally, responsible.

Legally, it's acceptable. Morally, I don't think anyone can believe it acceptable to make a profit off the back of a charity event (even though this actually happened in the American Live Aid! No-one at the British event was paid, however many of the technicians and crew at the American gig invoiced Live Aid for the gig). Ebay were right to remove the tickets from their site and tbh I think they deserve the negative PR for allowing ticket touting on their site in the first place.

RainyDay

GOAT_BOY wrote:

They should have just sold the tickets live every other event and raised ALOT more money.

You do realise that Live8 is NOT a fundraising exercise, don't you?

The kind of money that could be raised from any concert regardless of how you sell the tickets is just a drop in the ocean in terms of what is needed in Africa. Live8 is aimed at bringing about the structural & political changes needed to change the system.

Kernel

Sleepy wrote:

I think ebay should have a policy banning the resale of concert tickets above face value in the first place so in the case of Live 8 tickets:£1.50 should have been the maximum allowable selling price.

Ultimately, Geldof believes he has the right to behave in a boorish manner if it means that the job will get done and it's hard to argue with him on this. The man has saved hundreds of thousands of lives by being obstinate, daring to do what others wouldn't and acting in any manner he believes will improve the lives of those suffering. Think he's a berk if you like but I admire the man and I think it's very difficult to argue with what he's accomplished.

Yeah I totally agree. Fair play to the man, he's done a lot of good in his life, and has raised awareness of the issue to the extent that we can now talk about eliminating third world poverty.

Hobbes

Sleepy wrote:

I think ebay should have a policy banning the resale of concert tickets above face value in the first place so in the case of Live 8 tickets:£1.50 should have been the maximum allowable selling price.

Exactly. Ebay profit off these touts and live8 was just a bit more immoral then the usual stuff they get up to.

Users rights? If they didn't want the tickets they shouldn't of tried to get them or give them away rather the gouging people who actually wanted the tickets.

Serbian

There are a number of interesting points in here. I think the first point is that Live 8 and Geldof caused this problem themselves. This was the most obvious thing that was going to happen when they were giving out the tickets for so cheap, and they should have introduced measures to prevent it.

Secondly, while it is legal to sell tickets, I was under the impression that touting was illegal in Ireland at least, no? ebay has just pushed the business of ticket touting to a new level. When there is a product with such limited supply and extraordinary demand (e.g. the U2 concert - take a look on ebay to see how much people expect for their tickets) prices are going to become extortionate. This is what ebay likes to see. Bigger Prices == Bigger Commission. It's unrealistic to suggest that ebay should cap the price people can sell tickets for. Having said that, I do agree with the sentiment of the posts made by Sleepy.

I don't know if the timing of this was significant. ebay have just launched officially in Ireland and then someone like Geldof comes along making demands.

Altheus

Funnily enough, it is the promoters who decided the issue with what price the tickets can be sold for. Ultimately if there is a legality issue regarding a listing, we must be informed by the party who's being infringed, in this case, Bob Geldof et ál.

For instance, in the US, most tickets are banned if they sell for above face value, this is monitored not by eBay, but by the members, and by the promotors and companies. eBay as usual is obliged to take action according to law within 48 hours. Essentially every report would be considered a legal injunction.

in the UK, Ticketmaster and the promoters have no problem with this. I personally think it is bullshít, but the fact is it's an auction, so the price people are willing to pay, is the price they sell for. That said, the staff here scrutinize every ticket listing for other possible faults and take them down for that.

Another case is to be made for the Livestrong bands. Again, Nike and Livestrong foundation have only ever made requests for counterfeit goods to be taken down, and not band that were going upward of twenty quid.

billstraighten

absolutly not no way

WhiteWashMan

i think its a shame that ebay pander to the whim of a few dated rock stars.
the event is not about charity, so in this case, it cant be an issue of money. so it doesnt matter how much the tickets go for. at the end of the day, if someone is willing to spend the money to buy a ticket at a certain price, then thats their affair.

its not the affair of anyone else.

it is completely legal to sell these tickets if anyone wants to. they were distibuted freely.

GOAT_BOY

Hobbes wrote:

Exactly. Ebay profit off these touts and live8 was just a bit more immoral then the usual stuff they get up to.

Users rights? If they didn't want the tickets they shouldn't of tried to get them or give them away rather the gouging people who actually wanted the tickets.

i think people need to learn the facts before posting, eBay DID NOT profit from these listings, they said that any money made would go straight to the live 8 'fund' or whatever.

GOAT_BOY

RainyDay wrote:

You do realise that Live8 is NOT a fundraising exercise, don't you?

The kind of money that could be raised from any concert regardless of how you sell the tickets is just a drop in the ocean in terms of what is needed in Africa. Live8 is aimed at bringing about the structural & political changes needed to change the system.

that's besides the point, if they had of sold the tickets like any other gig, then more people could have gone AND they would have made money ASWELL.

Again, i must say, geldof is a muppet

GOAT_BOY

Altheus wrote:

Funnily enough, it is the promoters who decided the issue with what price the tickets can be sold for. Ultimately if there is a legality issue regarding a listing, we must be informed by the party who's being infringed, in this case, Bob Geldof et ál.

For instance, in the US, most tickets are banned if they sell for above face value, this is monitored not by eBay, but by the members, and by the promotors and companies. eBay as usual is obliged to take action according to law within 48 hours. Essentially every report would be considered a legal injunction.

in the UK, Ticketmaster and the promoters have no problem with this. I personally think it is bullshít, but the fact is it's an auction, so the price people are willing to pay, is the price they sell for. That said, the staff here scrutinize every ticket listing for other possible faults and take them down for that.

Another case is to be made for the Livestrong bands. Again, Nike and Livestrong foundation have only ever made requests for counterfeit goods to be taken down, and not band that were going upward of twenty quid.

no party is being infringed. The tickets do not belong to gekdof and co, nor do they have any rights to them. The second someone 'won' one of those tickets it became THEIR property. eBay did nothing wrong and did nothing illegal.

Hobbes

GOAT_BOY wrote:

i think people need to learn the facts before posting, eBay DID NOT profit from these listings, they said that any money made would go straight to the live 8 'fund' or whatever.

You have to pay ebay to host an auction, so yes they do make a profit.

Rew

GOAT_BOY wrote:

i think people need to learn the facts before posting, eBay DID NOT profit from these listings, they said that any money made would go straight to the live 8 'fund' or whatever.

They offered that after a fuss was made.

The General

It should be allowed if its not doing anything to effect the money already raised for live 8 then whats the problem, who cares if someone is making money off live 8, if thats the case bob geldof should have had some sense and doubled the prices of tickets in the first place

Altheus

Actually eBay have an entire site dedicated to charity listings http://pages.ebay.co.uk/charity/index.html, so this would have been the place to sell the items if the money was to go to charity. eBay does charge per listing, the same way the Irish Independant would charge Trocaire for an advertisement. However to think that eBay would have made any substantial amount of money from the sale of the tickets is ridiculous.

The fact is that eBay took the stance on behalf of it's users, not on behalf of it's shareholders.

Hydroquinone

I think if you own something and someone wants to buy it it's your call whether or not you want to sell it. As there was no money ever going to charity for these tickets, I don't see why there was any sort of a fuss at all.
Ebay shouldn't have kowtowed to the media. They weren't doing anything wrong.

Mikros

I think ebay were wrong to remove the sale of live 8 tickets from the site. While personally I don’t agree with the touting of tickets I don’t think that is the issue here. The Live 8 tickets were legally resalable and as such people should be able to buy and sell them as they please. It’s up to people to make up their own minds on whether they want to buy these tickets. If people feel it is profiteering then they needn’t buy/sell tickets but there are obviously people who are willing to pay for these tickets in which case ebay is supposed to provide a medium for them to do this.

ebay have set a poor precedent here in bowing to media pressure/negative PR at the expense of their user’s rights to sell what is theirs to legally sell.

Sleepy

The tickets may be legally sellable now but in a few months they won't be. There is currently legislation waiting to be ratified regarding ticket touting. Whether it's for a charity gig or a millionaire rock star's gig, touting is still the act of financially raping music and sports fans.

GOAT_BOY: when you've saved as many lives as Bob Geldof has, you'll have the right to call him a muppet. Until then, your life will remain worthless when compared to his.

Wertz

Sleepy wrote:

Ultimately, Geldof believes he has the right to behave in a boorish manner if it means that the job will get done and it's hard to argue with him on this. The man has saved hundreds of thousands of lives by being obstinate, daring to do what others wouldn't and acting in any manner he believes will improve the lives of those suffering. Think he's a berk if you like but I admire the man and I think it's very difficult to argue with what he's accomplished.

No-ones arguing that Sir Bob hasn't done a whole hell of a lot of good for charities and more importantly, for the starving of Africa....but that doesn't give him carte blanche to do WTF he likes on this issue. Encouraging DoS attacks and hacking on a online firm like eBay is tantamount to criminal behaviour.
Like I already stated, perhaps if a little more thought had gone into the ticket pricing and logistics, we wouldn't be faced with a problem in the first go off.

Many people use eBay every day....many people actually make their living on it. Attempting to shut down the system for the "crimes" of the few sellers who broke the moral law in regards to the resale of the tickets is way OTT.
This event doesn't need anymore publicity than waht it's already getting...scaremonghering by the media (including our own national broadcaster) over the last coupla days has put the firm in a bad light....why should they be held ultimately responsible for the actions of a few? In my experience, ebay are very efficient in closing auctions/sales that infringe their policies. Granted that some of their policies regarding ticket reselling require a little updating, but it's not like eBay themselves have put their giant corporate hand in the pocket of the needy and helped themselves to charity donations.

Bottom line; making the tickets non-tranferrable would have gone a long way to nipping this in the bud before it ever begun...the fact that the organisers didn't, suggests to me that they wanted this to happen....no such thing as bad publicity as the saying goes...

GOAT_BOY

Sleepy wrote:

GOAT_BOY: when you've saved as many lives as Bob Geldof has, you'll have the right to call him a muppet. Until then, your life will remain worthless when compared to his.

ha ha, he's STILL a muppet, put THAT in your pipe and smoke it. :rolleyes:

Dagnir Glaurung

I don't see what all the fuss is about. The sellers aren't taking any money out of the charity's profits. It's not like the wristbands where they were directly taking money that should have gone to the charities.

The problem here is the lottery system for tickets. You could have a music fan spend 150 trying to get tickets for this and failing. Then somebody else could text in once for £1.50 and win tickets. So it's no wonder people get frustrated with a system like that and just buy them off eBay or something. Maybe overpriced but you'll get the tickets and you aren't harming the charity.

horsesnout

Geldof asked for £1.50 towards charity for the chance of a ticket, every ticket on ebay would have paid that £1.50, so after that if the new owner of the ticket wants to sell it for profit so what?
Thats their right, they've paid they're 1.50 towards charity already so selling it on for personal profit isnt robbing anything from the charity because the amount requested was already paid.
If they make extra themselves on it at a later date then so-be-it. Thats not criminal, its entrepreneurial.

Thats capitalism, live with it.

Serbian wrote:

This is what ebay likes to see. Bigger Prices == Bigger Commission.

Its a flat fee for a listing. Commission doesnt come into it at all.

Wertz

horsesnout wrote:

Its a flat fee for a listing. Commission doesnt come into it at all.

eBay take a listing fee when you first list the item and a final % of the auction sale price when it ends...the bigger the final price the bigger the commission...

Hobbes

horsesnout wrote:

Geldof asked for £1.50 towards charity for the chance of a ticket, every ticket on ebay would have paid that £1.50, so after that if the new owner of the ticket wants to sell it for profit so what?

Because there are numerous other people who wanted that ticket for 1.50 but were unable to get it because some scum felt the need to fleece someone else for the money.

horsesnout

^ People selling tickets had no advantage over anyone else when the tickets went on sale, everybody had the same chance of getting a ticket.

limerick_man

Ebay, werent selling the items... it was people who use Ebay, I am love Ebay and always use it... but Ebay just make sure everything is aboveboard! People if they wish have a legal right to sell anything not copyright!

PS i accidently voted against Ebay, i meant to vote for no. 2!

nlgbbbblth

Altheus wrote:

I work in eBay, so I've got a very good idea of how the internal operations work on the site, and procedures taken.

I am a regular buyer on ebay.

In 2003 myself and approximately one hundred others had a problem with a seller of DVDs who was cashing drafts/cheques he received but not sending on the DVDs.

Emails to ebay reporting this were answered with useless automated replies. Why?

GOAT_BOY

nlgbbbblth wrote:

I am a regular buyer on ebay.

In 2003 myself and approximately one hundred others had a problem with a seller of DVDs who was cashing drafts/cheques he received but not sending on the DVDs.

Emails to ebay reporting this were answered with useless automated replies. Why?

The eBay centre in Dublin wasn't even here then, so he didn't work for eBay then. So he's hardly gonna know that, in other words, STFU. :rolleyes:

revo

nlgbbbblth wrote:

I am a regular buyer on ebay.

In 2003 myself and approximately one hundred others had a problem with a seller of DVDs who was cashing drafts/cheques he received but not sending on the DVDs.

Emails to ebay reporting this were answered with useless automated replies. Why?

Hi mate, i also work for eBay. I would like to set the record clear about this. Our responses to members are not automated (unless they get an auto responder to say we will reply in such and such a time) we at eBay pride ourselves on our emails and even if they do seem automated we do have policys too follow. It is a great achievement too us when we get a reply back saying thanks for everything etc etc... As you can see im sure eBay has a good track record with taking action against users but we are not allowed too tell you exactly what action would be taken as this would be a private matter between buyers and sellers. i hope this helps. and if you still didnt get your dvds you may want too contact the fraud department.

nlgbbbblth

GOAT_BOY wrote:

The eBay centre in Dublin wasn't even here then, so he didn't work for eBay then. So he's hardly gonna know that, in other words, STFU. :rolleyes:

my question was a general one concerned with why ebay seem to send automated replies to queries. I didn't expect him to know the specifics of that incident.

Hydroquinone

Hobbes wrote:

Because there are numerous other people who wanted that ticket for 1.50 but were unable to get it because some scum felt the need to fleece someone else for the money.

What?
Why are the people who want to sell the tickets scum? That makes no sense. It's not as if they put a gun to the head of whoever buys a ticket for some over the odds price.

It's the "Waaaaaaaaaaah, I wanted a ticket and I didn't get one. Boo hooo. Poor me." brigade who think they should get everything they want - when they want it - who are to blame. If such people weren't silly enough to pay silly money for tickets, then no ticket would ever change hands for any event outside of the official channels.

Doesn't make the sellers scum, it makes the buyers deluded.

joejoem

I think they were wrong to have them up there, legality and morality arent the same

Branoic

Its not a question of what eBay have "a right" to do, but a question of what "is right", in my opinion.

I work for Google AdWords, and we *could* take nearly any type of advertisement if we wanted to. But we don't. We have editorial and product guidelines that are in place because the company believes in them, not because of any legal obligation. If we wanted to, we could relax the restrictions and make a *sh1tload* more money.

Also, when sensitive current issues arise, for example the tsunami or the Pope's death, we tighten our policies regarding ads mentioning these things, and try to make sure we don't publish any ads a majority of users (or indeed we ourselves) would find offensive.

Basically what I'm saying is that eBay may have had their Terms and Conditions and a legal right on their side, but that's not what its about. They made a common sense judgement call, which was the right and moral thing to do.

It is precisely *because* companys like eBay and Google make an absolute mint every day that they are in a position where they can afford to make such calls, and should do so.