Plot holes

Stabshauptmann · 25-05-2005 07:26PM

Plunky wrote:

Anakin was NOT Sidious' apprentice when Dooku was killed!

Sidious had been working on turning anakin for a long time. He knew by the start of Ep3 that he was his. To make his taining complete Anakin had to kill Dooku.

I maintain what I said. There is only ever two Sith. But in order for that to hold true there has to be a tiny overlap time wise when there will be only one or in fact three -- or if one is to be pedantic 2 but a third is being trained. I dont like this interpretation, I feel anakin is unwittingly Sidious' apprentice for a long time and I think in Ep3 we are supposed to infer this. I believe this is a subtle message.

.. Just cuz Sidious killed the four Jedi who arrived with Windu doesn't mean that he was particularly tired.

Doing stuff makes you tired. You can devbate how much stuff makes you how tired but you cant say it doesnt

.
There are many examples of Jedi's being in a hurry but not using Jedi speed (no idea what term to put on it).
When Anakin was in a hurry to the theatre he could have used the speed obi wan and qui gon used at the start of Ep 1 or Yoda/Dooku/Sidious use when fighting. He didnt becuse it takes a lot of effort (or at least more effort than he wanted to use).
The fact that this Jedi speed is not used often is proof in itself that it is tiring.

Sidious didnt exactly fight the other masters then windoo arrived and kicked ass. During one big fight Windoo gained the upper hand. A huge part of this is that Sidious' fighting strategy was one V many and he couldnt afford to focus on one target: Windoo. The fact that Sidious faced many opponents made it easier for Windoo, that's not to take away though from the fact that Windoo was the best of the lot.

And tbh i'd say that he did do most of the work, cuz the others did not put up a fight, however unprepared they were...

See the previous bit of my post as to why Windoo had 2 particular advantages from fighting in a group situation

Also, in the end, Sidious won, even with Anakin's help. I'd say that only was it AFTER killing Windu did anakin become Sidious' apprentice, because he really saw no other way after killing a fellow Jedi...

even [if it was] with anakin's help is probably what you were trying to say

As GreeBo said. Sidious might just of being playing helpless in order to force Anakin to help him. After a second viewing Im certain this is the case. Its there in the tone of his voice, the way he arranged events, his communiqé re:If they kill me...

Anakin refers to Palpatine as being a father figure long before killing Windu. Palpitine has been training, manipulating and avising him for a long time and Anakin has been helping, respecting him etc.
After Windu's death I'd say their relationship of Student and Master was formailised

Btw, when you use cap locks on the internet ppl think you are shouting.

Capt'n Midnight · 25-05-2005 07:33PM

was General Grievous a sith ?

Stabshauptmann · 25-05-2005 07:35PM

Kingsize wrote:

PERHAPS there is alwaysa sith & master & apprentice but surely there can be many master & apprentice "teams"???

Its been very well covered and therre is no ambiguity. There cant be: They would fight each other and not stop untill only one "team" remained.

Yoda was right when he said there is only two but if one party is going to be replaced (and it has to happen) then a third is looked for before doing away with the other half. Sidious had Dooku in mind before maul died, anakin in mind before Dooku died and luke before Vader was going to die. Incidently Vader also had luke in mind

Dooku should of had something in the pipe line. He knew Sidious was trying to turn Anakin but somehow didnt realise that this would mean his own demise. Not very bright.

Interesting Q though. If padme had joined Vader - would he have tried to recruit an apprentice. If so who?

Stabshauptmann · 25-05-2005 07:38PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

was General Grievous a sith ?

appartently

jaggeh wrote:

hes a kahlee warrior, they are humanoids who train for years in the martial arts before getting themselves merged to machines.

There was one in the expanded universe aswell, he had a turbolaser in his chest

but that might answer my own question about Dooku having something in the pipeline. We see Dooku training Grevious like his apprentice. Hmm... perhaps Dooku was merely biding his time, waiting till he had learned all he could.

DubQuax · 26-05-2005 08:50AM

As said before Leia was adopted and might remember her mother that way. I don't know if she dies.
Yoda tought Obi Wan the power to achieve immortality and he himself mastered it when meditating on Tatooine watching Luke.
There was no exit for him from the Death Star so he decided to use his powers to help and guide Luke in the future. Right after his "disappearing" - as I like to call it - he tells Luke to shut the door. Needless to say that Vader coould have easily opened it but there was no big threat coming from a small ship and a little number of crew. Then again in EP1 Qui Gon used the light saber to open the door and he didn't use the Force either.
Anakin when he died achieved the same than Obi Wan and that is why he appears in the last scenes as a ghost kinda thing.
But one thing that bothers me is how would Luke know in EP6 that Vader will die when the helmet is removed?
Another one is that in the trailer and in the TV spots you see Vader coming up on the stretcher with his arms up but in EP3 he had them down.

May the Force be with you.

DubQuax · 26-05-2005 09:18AM

sorry answered on an earlier quote from someone above

Btw Lucas told Hamil in EP4 that the light sabre wasn't really light but heavy as Excalibur. Hence the tiring fighting in EP6 and the end of the fight with the "hammering" - as someone put it.

TerrorFirmer · 26-05-2005 11:58AM

Interesting Q though. If padme had joined Vader - would he have tried to recruit an apprentice. If so who?

Interesting. Perhaps in this event happening, his Son, Luke, would have been brought up as his fathers, Anakin, apprentice?

But its only a movie unfortunately, such an event happening would mean to epIV through VI!

][cEMAN** · 26-05-2005 12:10PM

Hold on. You're all completely missing the point of why the emperor didn't kill Mace.

What happened when Anakin came running in? He saw Mace about to kill the emperor and that seemed to be proof of what the emperor was telling him - that the jedi would try to kill him and take power.

It was the final stage in the emperors plan to turn Anakin to the dark side. That's why it happens in that scene - or at least why he agrees.

"What have I done?!?!?"

He has killed others. He has disagreed with the jedi - but he has never attacked his own until this point. It is by attacking Mace he reaches the point of no return. He realises that he has alienated himself from the other jedi, he realises he isn't one of them any more. He also is struggling with pain and fear of losing padme, and the deal to learn how to save her is the seal.

It isn't just what the emperor was saying that helped turn him. That's why the scene where he and padme are looking out across the city and he's thinking of her, and losing her if the emperor dies, is so important.

Besides, you could see when Mace fights the emperor that he lets him win. He has enough force to shoot lightning from his fingers, but can't muster a force push on Mace, and force pull to grab his saber? Are you kidding me?

It was all an elaborate plan. The Emperor is more intelligent than about 99.9% of the rest of the star wars universe. His plan has been long running since before Anakin was born. He also has the ability of foresight (seen in ROTJ etc) - so he knows that Anakin will come to save him, and has to set that up. But if he hadn't killed the other jedi, they might have been able to convince him together that the emperor must die.

A 1v1 sitation where Mace looks like he's going to deliver the final death blow for no reasons of justice, just revenge/craving for power, was just a setup.

TheDoc · 26-05-2005 01:03PM

I played Star Wars Knights of the old republic. It is in itself a film, and if made properly would become probably the best, no lukes, none of them. Yoda and the council are the only people in it you can recognise.

It tells the story of a Jedi named Bastilla who posses an immense Jedi power that no one else has, while on a ship the Sith attack, and you play the role of a simple ship crew, but who escapes, with the help of another Jedi. Basically you evolve, and are taking into the Jedi order as it is felt you are immensly strong with the force. The game takes place in a world where the sith and jedi are at full battle. And you, become one of the most powerful Jedi ever, but you may fall to the dark side of the force.

The game is gripping and so is the story. And in it you learn everything about the jedi code and the dark side. Basicaly the Sith draw their strengths and force powers from greed and want, they care of no one else but use anger as a force. To be honest I am going to reinstall KOTOR after my exams and play again and become a sith, they seem much cooler then jedi.

Stabshauptmann · 26-05-2005 02:26PM

' wrote:

[cEMAN**']Hold on. You're all completely missing the point of why the emperor didn't kill Mace.

In your opinion, I dont think we are.

What happened when Anakin came running in? He saw Mace about to kill the emperor and that seemed to be proof of what the emperor was telling him - that the jedi would try to kill him and take power.

I dont think it was. Anakin knew that Palpitine was Sidious, a Sith lord. He HAD to be removed from power. Anakin accepted this. I dont thik at this point that anakin believed the Jedi to bhe corrupt and power hungry.

It was the final stage in the emperors plan to turn Anakin to the dark side. That's why it happens in that scene - or at least why he agrees.

"What have I done?!?!?"

The "what have I done bit doesnt seem like he believed the Jedi to be evil. Maybe you should rethink part of your theary

He has killed others. He has disagreed with the jedi - but he has never attacked his own until this point. It is by attacking Mace he reaches the point of no return. He realises that he has alienated himself from the other jedi, he realises he isn't one of them any more. He also is struggling with pain and fear of losing padme, and the deal to learn how to save her is the seal.

I think everyone is in agreement that killing Windoo is the point of no return.
However, you seem to suggest that Anakin killed windoo because he believed him to be corrupt, and saving Padme is the deal clincher.

It isn't just what the emperor was saying that helped turn him. That's why the scene where he and padme are looking out across the city and he's thinking of her, and losing her if the emperor dies, is so important.

Now you've switched.

Besides, you could see when Mace fights the emperor that he lets him win.

Im just after watching it again and I no longer believe the emperor did let Windoo win.

He has enough force to shoot lightning from his fingers, but can't muster a force push on Mace

If mace was stronger with the force than the emperor then the emperor cant force push him. We've seen this in the Clone Wrs series.

and force pull to grab his saber? Are you kidding me?

Again, If the emperor was indeed using all his energies to stop Windoo's final blow, and the way his face was being disfigured would support this, then he wouldnt be able to stop using his lightning long enough to grab his sabre.

It was all an elaborate plan. The Emperor is more intelligent than about 99.9% of the rest of the star wars universe. His plan has been long running since before Anakin was born. He also has the ability of foresight (seen in ROTJ etc) - so he knows that Anakin will come to save him, and has to set that up. But if he hadn't killed the other jedi, they might have been able to convince him together that the emperor must die.

A 1v1 sitation where Mace looks like he's going to deliver the final death blow for no reasons of justice, just revenge/craving for power, was just a setup.

Soiler: Not for those who havnt seen Ep3

Here's how I interpret Anakins Turning
The Emperor is constantly praising and rewarding Anakin. Makes him feel special and important and proud. Pride is Anakins first step towards the dark side.

The Emperor arranges the assassination attempt on Padmé and then places her in Anakin's protection. He fosters their relationship I wouldnt be surprised if that logic he comes up with in Ep2 wasnt an elabouration of something the Emperor told him. Anakin falls in love - his second major step to the dark side.

The Emperor accelerates Anakin's career. He is put in command before Obi Wan feels he is ready, before he has even sat the trials to become a knight.
Seperated from his master Sidious fills the void. An informal master-student relationship evolves.

In Ep3 we see anakin kill the unarmed Dooku. This is nothing majorly new. After all he killed the sand ppl in Ep2. But this act was important to warp Anakins sense of Justice. "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" according to Obi Wan.

Sidious wants Anakin to abandon Obi Wan. He refuses. The Emperor knows he must destroy their relationship. He puts Anakin on the council. In doing so the council dont trust him and he in turn doesnt trust them. He becomes alienated from the Jedi.

Before Mace and the other 4 masters go to the Chancellor's office Mace told Anakin he doesnt trust him. Big mistake.
The Emperor told Anakin as he was going to rat him out that he couldnt trust the Council.

Now heres the ambiguous part and you can disagree if you want.
Mace and the others fight Sidious and I think Sidious tries to win. He is afraid of loosing power.
When he sees he cant win he is ready to be taken captive. He doesnt want to die and more than likely has a contingency plan. He will be found not guilty and when the Jedi try to seize power anakin will see they are power hungry.

When Anakin arrives the Emperor knows how to use this to his advantage. He attacks Windoo with all his power. Windoo knows he must kill the emperor here and now. Anakin cant let this happen he needs the Emperor to save Padmé.

He stops Mace but doesnt kill him - The emperor does. Anakin didnt want this to happen but Sidious justifies it:
They were trying to kill me. Thats not the Just way. They wanted my power

Anakin accepts this, he wants to believe it. The emperor tells him that the Jedi are corrupt, they have planned this for a long time. Becuase Anakin is a man of honour and conscience they hadnt included him in their plot. Wouldnt you want to believe that.
He tells Anakin that both their lives are in danger - that much is the truth.
The lives of the senators are in danger. There will be civil war (probably true)!!

Anakin wants peace. He believes the emperor can deliver that piece. He takes the neccessary steps - he destroys the Jedi and the seperatists.

The next step into darkeness is to do the above without mercy. Only if he gives himself to the darkside wholly can he hope to achieve the power to save Padmé.

So know he is a true Sith Lord. He is full of anger at the percieved betrayals all around him. He is afraid of loosing Padmé for whom he has given everything. But his love of Padmé is altuistic. His love for her is all that is left that is good in him - even though it is shrowded in mistrust and Jealousy

Now with the power of the Dark Side he faces his old master. He is proud, angry, jealous. He looses the fight and should die but he is too full of hate. He hates Obi Wan sooo much. He betrayed him, he betrayed the republic, and he came between him and his wife. This hate keeps Anakin alive.

His final step into darkness is Padmé's death. Fear is the first step to the darkside: fear->anger->hate->suffering; but a true Sith must have no fear (clone wars weries). He no longer fears loosing Padmé. Now he has no outward emotions, there is nothing he cares about above him self.

Sleepy · 26-05-2005 02:30PM

To come back to the prophecy of "the chosen one" who would bring "balance to the force". I took this to mean that Anakin wasn't the chosen one in the prophecy, that Qui Gon and Obi Wan were misinterpreting the prophecy purely because Anakin was so powerful. I assumed that it was actually Luke the prophecy referred to given that at the end or ROTJ, there are no Sith left.

TerrorFirmer · 26-05-2005 02:48PM

Sleepy wrote:

To come back to the prophecy of "the chosen one" who would bring "balance to the force". I took this to mean that Anakin wasn't the chosen one in the prophecy, that Qui Gon and Obi Wan were misinterpreting the prophecy purely because Anakin was so powerful. I assumed that it was actually Luke the prophecy referred to given that at the end or ROTJ, there are no Sith left.

I said something similar, in that Anakin still is the choosen one as he leads to Luke, who leads to the end of the Sith! However is it STILL Anakin who destroys the Sith really, when he chooses to kill the emperor to save his son. Luke is merely an aid and the most important factor in this - he is not powerful enough to defeat the Emperor himself. :cool:

][cEMAN** · 26-05-2005 03:03PM

Kaptain, a couple of things about what I said. I wasn't stating any of the above was the exact reason why he turned. They're all stages towards it. Though there is always the last straw, and that was his point of no return with Mace.

He didn't kill Mace, he attacked Mace. He did it because of 2 things. 1 - The jedi shouldn't kill, even though this was a direct contradiction to what he did with dooku earlier, and 2 - If he kills the emperor, he won't be able to save Padme.

I still believe he had already begun to think the jedi were corrupt. The emperor had already mentioned their plot to overthrow him and take power for themselves, which jedi aren't supposed to do - they're not supposed to crave power.

As for his face being disfigured - that was lightning feedback from the saber. I don't believe he was drained of power, or straining to use it, but was rather suffering the feedback of using power to attack Mace.

He already knew that it wouldn't work (force lightning is stopped by a saber) so his only reason for using it would to make it look like he's helpless. He even pretended to be half dead (which he's clearly not when you see how he fights later).

Also, the emperor is more powerful than Mace. Mace is less powerful than Yoda, and as we could see from the force v force fight with yoda, the emperor is actually more powerful - it's his rage that gives him this power. The Dark Side, as always stated, is more powerful. Thus, I do think he could have force thrown him if he wanted to (he didn't even try), and he could easily have pulled his saber. Though the emperor attacked Mace, Mace wasn't going to deliver the death blow just yet. I can only see his lightning attack as a means of playing to Anakin's supposed sense of justice. We all know that's warped.

joc_06 · 26-05-2005 11:04PM

What does the prophecy say?
I believe it is "the chosen one will bring balance to the force"
If it is this, then anakin is the chosen one and he does bring balance by destroying most of the jedi.

Stabshauptmann · 26-05-2005 11:09PM

I dont know exactly what it says. But it refers to a child, concieved by the force whos destiny it is to bring the force back into balance.

TerrorFirmer · 27-05-2005 12:31AM

joc_06 wrote:

What does the prophecy say?
I believe it is "the chosen one will bring balance to the force"
If it is this, then anakin is the chosen one and he does bring balance by destroying most of the jedi.

Lucas, after creating such a brilliant an believable universe, wasn't going to crap all over it by having a Barney style literay meaning for bringing balance to the force.

It means bring balance to the force by bring peace, harmony and doing away with suffering etc. Anakin/Vader did this in full circle, by helping destroy the Jedi and join the Sith,and then by having Luke, who was instrumental in the restoration.

Luke brought out the good in him once more, that ended the Siths existance as far as we know in the current line of movies. Had Anakin not first become in league with the Sith, they might have gone without power but have remained hidden and allowed to continue their presence and threat.

Everything that happened in the 6 movies was for the ultimate greater good.

joc_06 · 27-05-2005 08:48AM

MobileInfantry wrote:

Lucas, after creating such a brilliant an believable universe, wasn't going to crap all over it by having a Barney style literay meaning for bringing balance to the force.

I really dont see why not? Its totally believable that he'd use a literal meaning.
I dont mean to get into this one but star wars is just a re hash of LOTR. There are similarities everywhere. And Tolkien used this idea himself sometimes. Eg "Speak Friend and enter"

TBH the interpretation that the prophecy is actually literal never occured to me until this thread so i doubt many other ppl would have thought it really.

We never actually hear what Yoda et al think of the prophecy and its interpretation. All they say is they erred when interpreting it.

The more i think about it the more i think it has to be the literal way. Anakin balanced the force initially when the Jedi were far stronger than the sith and balanced it all over again when the Sith were more powerful than the Jedi.

Man id love to see the actual text of the prophecy. Google aint too good to me on this. Anyone?

JCDenton · 27-05-2005 09:10AM

I have a question relating to Episode 2 which I thought would be answered in Revenge Of The Sith...

Who was the jedi Sifo Dyas who ordered the construction of the clones? I had thought it was Dooku but didn't Obi-Wan say he died a long time ago?

Who was it?

joc_06 · 27-05-2005 09:41AM

Originally I thought that Sifo-Dyas was an ordinary Jedi who had a vision of the upcoming war and placed an order for the army to help the republic, but then I found out something curious. In the early scripts for Attack of the Clones, Sifo-Dyas was known as Sido-Dyas. Once I heard this I immediately linked Sido-Dyas with Sidious. I started to investigate this and I remembered that, during the movie, Windu did not know who Sifo(Sido)-Dyas was. (Obi-Wan)" I've never heard of a Jedi called Sifo(Sido)-Dyas, have you, Master?" (Mace Windu) " No. Whoever placed that order was not a Jedi, I can assure you." Later he says, " A clone army! Ordered by someone in the Senate perhaps… Someone's out to start a war." Who else would want to start a war other than Sidious?

joc_06 · 27-05-2005 09:43AM

Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master in the Jedi Order, though he was killed shortly after the time of the Battle of Naboo.

Visions of a coming war forced Sifo-Dyas to order the creation of a clone army on Kamino to help the Galactic Republic. Sifo-Dyas did not reveal the army to the Jedi Council, fearing that the Jedi Masters would arrest him and cease the order for the troops.

However, he informed his Jedi confidant, Count Dooku, who - unbeknownst to him - had joined the Sith. Darth Sidious, Dooku's master, ordered Dooku to slay Dyas in his sleep, so that the Clone Army would only be known to the Sith until the time to unleash them arrived. Eventually revealed and used at the behest of the Galactic Republic, this army was later turned against the guardians of peace and justice as the Galactic Empire was created.

He was an actual Jedi, not an Alias.

EDIT: This information is coming from answers.com

JCDenton · 27-05-2005 10:03AM

I only wish some of that had been explained in the films!

also, does anyone know why Dooku is referred to as a "count"?

RuggieBear · 27-05-2005 10:07AM

JCDenton wrote:

I only wish some of that had been explained in the films!

also, does anyone know why Dooku is referred to as a "count"?

coz it's Christopher Lee

Calibos · 28-05-2005 02:55PM

joc_06 wrote:

I really dont see why not? Its totally believable that he'd use a literal meaning.
I dont mean to get into this one but star wars is just a re hash of LOTR. There are similarities everywhere. And Tolkien used this idea himself sometimes. Eg "Speak Friend and enter"

TBH the interpretation that the prophecy is actually literal never occured to me until this thread so i doubt many other ppl would have thought it really.

We never actually hear what Yoda et al think of the prophecy and its interpretation. All they say is they erred when interpreting it.

The more i think about it the more i think it has to be the literal way. Anakin balanced the force initially when the Jedi were far stronger than the sith and balanced it all over again when the Sith were more powerful than the Jedi.

Man id love to see the actual text of the prophecy. Google aint too good to me on this. Anyone?

Thats basically what I was saying in my post earlier in the thread. Lucas tried to parallel so many things in the prequels with the originals, some of it locations, some of it dialogue, some of it situations. Maybe he also tried to parallel a 'Twist'. The twist in the originals was obviously Vader revealing to Luke that he was his father.

What was the 'Twist' in the prequels?? Not that Palpatine was Sidious/Emperor, we all knew that. Not that Anakin would turn. We all knew he would it was just a matter of when and how. Not that the Jedi would be wiped out leaving just Yoda and ObiWan. We knew that too. Not that Luke and leia would be born and sent to Alderaan and Tatoinne. Guess what we knew that too!!

Is it a 'Twist' that Vader/Anakin does infact bring a metaphysical balance to the force by killing the Emperor at the end of ROTJedi. Not really cause thats too obvious to be a twist. Its the obvious interpretation of the prophecy. The 'Twist' for the Prequal Trilogy is that the prophecy was interpreted metaphysically and metaphorically by the Jedi when in fact it was a literal prophecy. That Anakin would bring balance by equalising the numbers, Yoda/ObiWan and Sidious/vader.

Do we know how old the prophecy is supposed to be? Some people are rubbishing the 'literal' theory because there was always only two Sith a master and apprentice according to Yoda. Yes only two for the last few Generations or centuries but in the EU weren't there a Race of Sith who controlled the Galaxy until the Jedi defeated them. The prophecy is made between then and now. Jedi outnumber Sith since they defeated the Sith back then until Anaking Brings balance by equalising the numbers again.

In ROTS Yoda actually says that the Jedi may have mis-interpretted the prophecy. Well if its killing the Emperor in ROTJ then they haven't mis-interpretted it after all. In that case the twist would be that Anakin merely fullfilled the prophecy later then expected and that the Jedi had started to doubt their interprettation until ultimately being proven right.

Board@Work · 28-05-2005 03:01PM

RuggieBear wrote:

coz it's Christopher Lee

Thats exactly why.. Lucas wanted to homage to the old Dracula Movies that he saw as a child....

iguana · 28-05-2005 04:29PM

Calibos wrote:

What was the 'Twist' in the prequels?? Not that Palpatine was Sidious/Emperor, we all knew that. Not that Anakin would turn. We all knew he would it was just a matter of when and how. Not that the Jedi would be wiped out leaving just Yoda and ObiWan. We knew that too. Not that Luke and leia would be born and sent to Alderaan and Tatoinne. Guess what we knew that too!!

1. Who said there had to be a twist? It's George Lucas, not M. Night Shyamalan.

2. If you need to find a twist then I don't think any of us expected Padme to die in chidbirth as most people assumed based on what Leia says in ROTJ, that she lived a few years beyond the twins being born.

TerrorFirmer · 28-05-2005 04:33PM

In ROTS Yoda actually says that the Jedi may have mis-interpretted the prophecy. Well if its killing the Emperor in ROTJ then they haven't mis-interpretted it after all. In that case the twist would be that Anakin merely fullfilled the prophecy later then expected and that the Jedi had started to doubt their interprettation until ultimately being proven right.

Exactly.

doggz · 07-06-2005 02:01PM

in regards to leia talking about her mother in ROTJ,
im pretty sure she was talking about her other mother.
in episode three, when leia is passed on to the senator, he says that he and his WIFE have always wanted a baby girl.
leia's lack of memory of her would indicate that she too also died when leia was very young

is this not the case?

skywalker · 07-06-2005 04:47PM

Theres a lot of misinformation in this thread tbh. Let me clear a couple things up. 2 jedi, 2 sith does not equal balance in the force. the sith themselves create an imbalance in the force.

MobileInfantry wrote:

Exactly!
By the way, I always wondered where Maul came from....why is he strong with the force? At what age did he start training with palpatine? And how? And where!?

Theres actually a book dedicated to Maul in the EU. Havent read it myself, but Im sure I will at some stage. I find him very interesting personally.

Plunky wrote:

the same question arises about the Protege Dooku gets during the Clone Wars to lure Anakin. Hold on... That would mean that at one stage there were three of them! does that mean the Jedi don't fully understand the Sith when they always assume there's only 2 of them, or does it mean that GL messed up?..

Neither. The character in clone wars (Asajj Ventress) is referred to as a deciple or a follower or something. I cant exactly remember the term used, but it is pointed out quite clearly that she isnt a fully fledged sith. There are several characters in EU books where people are givin some training in the dark side, this does not neccessarily make them sith.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

was General Grievous a sith ?

No. He had training in lightsaber use from Dooku but had no knowledge of the dark side. Had he been a sith he would have taken a sith name e.g. Darth Grievous.

Kingsize · 08-06-2005 05:00PM

i think the real "twist" is that the empire we all learned to hate is actually voted into existance (albeit due to those sneaky sith)its always been known that the jedi were wiped out & the old republic was replaced by the empire but it turned out to be a lot closer to home as to how it all happened...

Stabshauptmann · 18-06-2005 02:27PM

What annoys me more than any plot hole is Lucas's attempts to bridge gaps where none exist.

There was no need what so-ever for Padme to be a Queen so that Leia could be a princess.
It was the worst thing in the prequel trilogy when Yoad turns out to be friends with Chewbaca (sp?)

Plot holes

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