Plot holes

][cEMAN**

Besides, in the expanded universe you find there were other jedi in the universe in hiding.

Sure,

in ROTS obi-wan reconfigures a distress beacon to warn any remaining jedi that the temple has been taken over. It never says that all but yoda and he were killed. It implies that there are others out there. Though it does state that there is only EVER 1 sith lord and one sith apprentice.

hardCopy

Calibos wrote:

The way I see this 'Bringing balance to the force' thing is that with the jedi defeating the Sith millenia before, the Light and Darkside were unbalanced in that there were hundreds, if not thousands of Jedi but only a handful of Sith. The Jedi interpretted the vague prophecy of the chosen one bringing balance to the force as somehow being ie. 'Good' thing (maybe like being one with the force like QuiGon discovered, ie the prophecy was so vague they assumed it was good and would help them be more attuned to the force) when in fact what it really meant was that the chosen one ie Anakin would literally bring balance to the force by equalising the numbers of Jedi and Sith, reducing Jedi numbers to 2, Yoda and ObiWan which is in balance with the 2 Sith, Palpatine and Vader. Rather than some metaphysical, metaphorical balance in the force itself.

Well thats what I always thought from the first time I heard the balancing the force term in TPM. Occams Razor Usually the most obvious simple answer is the correct one

What does everyone else think?

Yoda hints at some realisation like this in Clone Wars cartoons, windu mentions Anakin being the one from the prophecy and Yoda responds that the prophecy may have been misinterpreted. I know the non-movie stuff ain't really canon but just thought it was worth mentioning

rasherboy wrote:

sounds right but i keep thinking back to what aniken said during episode 2 about how they are encouraged to love... if this is true and he wasnt just twisting words it wouldnt realy fit in...

I think here he was just twisting words, he says that posession and love are forbidden by the jedi code but that compassion is encouraged, he then reasons that compassion is simply unconditional love in order to talk padmé round to bunking with him

iguana

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

On a side note whate age is luke do you think in a new hope because obi wan seems to have aged terribly.

Luke and Leia are 17/18 in A New Hope. And why wouldn't Obi Wan have aged. His whole galaxy was quite literally torn apart.

All of his friends are dead or hiding, so he can't meet them again til he dies. Everything he believes in is gone. He watched his best friend destroy the council and kill the children (on holo-recording). Then he had to kill his best friend, and watch his friends wife die in childbirth. Then he had to seperate two baby twins. Then he had to (at some point that we don't see) learn that he didn't kill his best friend afterall, he has lived to become the most powerful, evil creature in the galaxy!

I think all that combined with 18 years on a desert planet would age you a lot!

Stabshauptmann

suppose it would.
Im just surprised that yoda lives to be like 900, but every other jedi seems to age normally throughout the 6 movies

nice the way they speed up the emporors aging, was wondering how that would happen.

iguana

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

suppose it would.
Im just surprised that yoda lives to be like 900, but every other jedi seems to age normally throughout the 6 movies

nice the way they speed up the emporors aging, was wondering how that would happen.

I always figured he just belongs to a species that has that kind of lifespan, like chewie is about 200 in ANH.

TerrorFirmer

in ROTS obi-wan reconfigures a distress beacon to warn any remaining jedi that the temple has been taken over. It never says that all but yoda and he were killed. It implies that there are others out there. Though it does state that there is only EVER 1 sith lord and one sith apprentice.

Given the huge size of both the order and the galaxy itself its safe to assume there were a considerable amount of Jedi left alive after the initial betrayal. However, it is Darth Vader who hunts and exterminates the survivors in between epIII and IV.

I really hope this is a background theme in the new TV show.

guess both our interpretations are valid, ie mine is that Vader/Anakin literally brought balance to the force in ROTS and yours that Vader/Anakin metaphiscally brought balance in the force by completly eliminating the Evil Sith in ROTJ by killing the Emperor and reverting to the lightside himself.

Not really, as it's a fantasty world created by George Lucas, however he intended it is the sole possible interpetation, which would seriously seem from the old movies that to restore Balance to the force occurs when Vader destroys the emperor and redeems himself from the Dark Side, thus bringing peace to the galaxy and removing the threat of evil.

If your view of taking it literally, in equal numbers, then ultimately Luke Skywalker destroys the prophecy and makes the entire ideals of the original trilogy kind of stupid....something Lucas I'm sure didn't intend in any form.

Lucas can be childish, but I don't think, after the fantastic galaxy he created, that he would have something so literal and simple and balance to the force meaning equal numbers.

In any case, with your theory, Vader did not bring balance to the force anyway in RoTS - not all the Jedi were killed.

Basically I think to bring balance to the force means to bring harmony, peace and prosperity, not literally evening out the sides.

I think ultimately, Vader brought balance to the force not through his actions, but by having Luke as his son.

Unless you count him poking padme as an action.

joc_06

The more i read it, i agree with Calibos re balance to the force. I dont mean anything as literal as having equal numbers of sith and jedi but each side having equal power or relatively close.
It makes perfect sense.
Did the prohecy say bring balance to the force? If that is the case then im certain that anakin was destined to become vader as he did bring balance to the force. Luke destroyed that prophecy then by turning his father and helping overthrow the emporer.
It makes perfect sense.

The one thing that i dont get in the whole film is why vader didnt overthrow the emporer and replace him much earlier? The dark side is all about looking inwards and self empowerment so
it would have been expected that vader would try take the reigns.
Also if vader is much more powerful than the emporer how come he couldnt defeat luke but emporer could. Why did he not use lightning bolts or something more extravagent??

TerrorFirmer

Also if vader is much more powerful than the emporer how come he couldnt defeat luke but emporer could. Why did he not use lightning bolts or something more extravagent??

I honesty think that final fight scene in RotJ needs reediting or something for another re-release.

In comparison to the new films it makes Vader look like a weak and clumsy fighter. It needs more visual flair and style, as well as speed and agility.

Watching the end of RotJ and seeing Vader loose to Luke so easily and tbh in a stupid and pathetic way (Luke hammering him down and down was class in honesty, but its just not the way Vader should have gone!)

IT should have been more of an epic battle, much longer and much more closer matched with a hell of alot more speed and skill on show.

Plunky

In fairness, by then he had been burned to pieces and had multiple extremities cut off and replaced with prosthetics... He was also in that big ole (albeit cool) clumsy suit... Even with the technology they had, I think it'd be hard to be any more agile!..

TerrorFirmer

Plunky wrote:

In fairness, by then he had been burned to pieces and had multiple extremities cut off and replaced with prosthetics... He was also in that big ole (albeit cool) clumsy suit... Even with the technology they had, I think it'd be hard to be any more agile!..

Not really, as it is supposed to be Vader who hunts down and kills the remainder of the Jedi....also, if that were the case, even despite his aging years Obi-Wan should have been able to defeat him in ANH, but he wasn't - Vader even says that Obi has retained his old skills.

So even though that fight scene was rubbish, it was mean to be in theory a fight between two very skilled warriors - with Vader being more powerful.

Plunky

it is supposed to be Vader who hunts down and kills the remainder of the Jedi

personally?.. I'm not sure how much water that actually holds, considering there's an entire universe with Jedi in it!.. Maybe part of the reason that ObiWan couldn't defeat him in ANH was to do with the fact that while he was reclusive on Tatooine, Vader was out battling and still developing his skill with a sabre, whereas ObiWan was probably just training like Yoda told him he could at the end of RotS. As opposed to using his lightsabre. and even if he was, he didn't have anyone to fight against, thus could learn no new skills. Vader still had a master to teach him about the Force.
I'll have to go back and watch it again, but tbh I think it lived up to the way I feel it should have been...

TerrorFirmer

Plunky wrote:

personally?.. I'm not sure how much water that actually holds, considering there's an entire universe with Jedi in it!.. Maybe part of the reason that ObiWan couldn't defeat him in ANH was to do with the fact that while he was reclusive on Tatooine, Vader was out battling and still developing his skill with a sabre, whereas ObiWan was probably just training like Yoda told him he could at the end of RotS. As opposed to using his lightsabre. and even if he was, he didn't have anyone to fight against, thus could learn no new skills. Vader still had a master to teach him about the Force.
I'll have to go back and watch it again, but tbh I think it lived up to the way I feel it should have been...

That is Valid, but he wouldn't have disimproved to an extent that he was actually bad....I know the suit implies that Vader has less agility and power then he once had, but tbh I think Lucas originally didn't see it that way....he created Vader as an all powerful and feared warrior with immense skills

Capt'n Midnight

The Sith

If there are only ever two of them and alot of the time only one since number two tends to die off frequently and then there is the lead time in recruting and training.. how come they never die out when both are killed ???

Plunky

..When are both ever killed? they're not!.. Hence not dying out!

iguana

In ROTJ Vader is fighting his son, he has also just learned he has a daughter. Did it ever occur to you that maybe, deep-down, he did not want to kill his son? Especially seeing as only minutes later he sacrifices himself in order to save him!

After seeing ROTS I think this is even more obvious, as Anakin was turned to the dark-side in order to save someone he loves as he keeps losing people and doesn't want to be helpless in the face of death. Then he loses her anyway and I'm pretty sure he was a bit heartbroken. Then he spends the next 20ish years thinking he has no-one, then discovers he has a son, then a daughter. I don't think he would want to kill them.

However, there must also have been a bit of an internal struggle when he killed Palpatine as the man had been like a father to him for over 30 years.

TerrorFirmer

Plunky wrote:

..When are both ever killed? they're not!.. Hence not dying out!

Exactly!

By the way, I always wondered where Maul came from....why is he strong with the force? At what age did he start training with palpatine? And how? And where!?

Plunky

That's an actual plot hole, MI... Dunno, tbh, maybe we should email Lucas to do a prequel to the prequels! Seriously though, the same question arises about the Protege Dooku gets during the Clone Wars to lure Anakin. Hold on... That would mean that at one stage there were three of them! does that mean the Jedi don't fully understand the Sith when they always assume there's only 2 of them, or does it mean that GL messed up?..

Devious

joc_06 wrote:

The one thing that i dont get in the whole film is why vader didnt overthrow the emporer and replace him much earlier? The dark side is all about looking inwards and self empowerment so
it would have been expected that vader would try take the reigns.

Thats a very good point. Its actually EXPECTED that a pupil of the dark side will attempt to kill their master, its one of the main principles of the Sith as it allows for the strong to continue on and the weak get weeded out. So why doesn't Vader do this? The only explanation I can think of is that he never FULLY gives himself to the dark side and as such can never bring himself to kill Palpatine. For all we know Vader BELIEVES he is on the side of justice right up to his death, believing in the fight to maintain the Republic/Empire whatever the price. You can see how this view might not nescessarily be considered totally evil from some points of view.

On a seperate note, I think a logical explanation for Vader's half-hearted duel with Luke in ROTJ is that he is fighting his son and is in the midst of turning back to the light side, therefore is unwilling cause him any harm.

Plunky

Sidious was stronger than Vader with the Dark Side, and I reckon Vader saw this when he was being turned. Even the darkest Sith Lord has a certain regard for their own life, and I'd say Vader felt that going up against Sidious would be suicidal...

][cEMAN**

I think through it all Vader has just felt alone. Note a direct similarity when he asks padme to rule the galaxy with him, and then when he asks luke to rule the galaxy with him.

Without someone to rule with, he doesn't really feel like he wants it, or that he could do it. It was love and fear and turned him to the dark side. He was afraid of losing padme. He was all for letting Luke turn to the dark side and join him. The only reason he killed the emperor was because he was going to lose Luke.

You could see that he had to think about this for a minute. I think part of it was a fear of overthrowing the emperor alone.

Don't forget - the Jedi council let anakin on the council but wouldn't make him a master because he still wasn't ready for it. He wasn't a leader. He was still a pupil - a soldier. For all of his dreams, I don't think Vader could rule alone. He has a lot of tactical awareness, but I don't think he has the ability to rule. Padme was always his anchor. Luke could have become this as well. Without it, he latched onto the emperor.

TerrorFirmer

' wrote:

[cEMAN**']I think through it all Vader has just felt alone. Note a direct similarity when he asks padme to rule the galaxy with him, and then when he asks luke to rule the galaxy with him.

Without someone to rule with, he doesn't really feel like he wants it, or that he could do it. It was love and fear and turned him to the dark side. He was afraid of losing padme. He was all for letting Luke turn to the dark side and join him. The only reason he killed the emperor was because he was going to lose Luke.

You could see that he had to think about this for a minute. I think part of it was a fear of overthrowing the emperor alone.

Don't forget - the Jedi council let anakin on the council but wouldn't make him a master because he still wasn't ready for it. He wasn't a leader. He was still a pupil - a soldier. For all of his dreams, I don't think Vader could rule alone. He has a lot of tactical awareness, but I don't think he has the ability to rule. Padme was always his anchor. Luke could have become this as well. Without it, he latched onto the emperor.

All I was going to say and more. Well done

For all we know Vader BELIEVES he is on the side of justice right up to his death, believing in the fight to maintain the Republic/Empire whatever the price. You can see how this view might not nescessarily be considered totally evil from some points of view.

This is a point I consider correct myself. I debated this myself personally and decided in light of the new movies, especially EpIII, Vader is not in fact evil by any stretch in the same sense as Palpatine, and most certainly not as evil as we first believed in the orginal trilogy.

For all we know he believed he was fighting for the only thing he had left, and the only thing he had left to believe in.

joc_06

Sidious himself says that Anakin will become more powerful than any jedi ever was in rots.
No i believe this is a hole.
I dont believe Sidious was stronger than vader. Look how easily Windoo defetaed him? In fact i think dokoo could have been stronger than sidiuos the way the film went.
Whether this was meant i doubt in the extreme.
Vader was never fully with the darkside thats why i find the immortality bit so hard to grasp. For Luke to find this hole 20yrs after anakins turn suggests a large part of him initially was not with the emporer

iguana

Plunky wrote:

That's an actual plot hole, MI... Dunno, tbh, maybe we should email Lucas to do a prequel to the prequels! Seriously though, the same question arises about the Protege Dooku gets during the Clone Wars to lure Anakin. Hold on... That would mean that at one stage there were three of them! does that mean the Jedi don't fully understand the Sith when they always assume there's only 2 of them, or does it mean that GL messed up?..

Y'see I always took from that, that there were always at least 2 sith, not only ever 2 sith.

Stabshauptmann

Windoo dint easily defeat Sidious: it took four or five of them. You can argue that windoo did most of the work but try to remember that Sidious had to kill 3 or 4 of them which easy as it looked took a lot of effort.

There are always two sith. Dooku's apprentice isnt really sith and isnt really his apprentice. She is meant to die.

When Sidious got a new apprentice he immediatly had Dooku killed.

But going from the EU: Maul was trained since shortly after birth. Has enough time passed between Ep1 and 2 for Dooku to be trained?
I think so. I think Dooku was being turned and trained at the same pace as anakin, so IMO there was only two.
I think its like: There are two, another comes along, one is killed there are 2. Or there are 2, one is killed, another is recruited.

Thats why Vader doesnt overthrow Sidious. He would if luke joined him but not without an apprentice. There has to be two.

Plunky

Anakin was NOT Sidious' apprentice when Dooku was killed!.. Just cuz Sidious killed the four Jedi who arrived with Windu doesn't mean that he was particularly tired. And tbh i'd say that he did do most of the work, cuz the others did not put up a fight, however unprepared they were... Also, in the end, Sidious won, even with Anakin's help. I'd say that only was it AFTER killing Windu did anakin become Sidious' apprentice, because he really saw no other way after killing a fellow Jedi...

Kingsize

PERHAPS there is alwaysa sith & master & apprentice but surely there can be many master & apprentice "teams"???

GreeBo

I felt that Sidious wasnt really beaten by Dooku, I think it was his way of testing Vader/Anakin, getting him to make his mind up, forcing him to do somehthing.
If Anakin had done nothing I think Sidious could have recovered and fought back.

OmegaRed

MobileInfantry wrote:

All I was going to say and more. Well done



This is a point I consider correct myself. I debated this myself personally and decided in light of the new movies, especially EpIII, Vader is not in fact evil by any stretch in the same sense as Palpatine, and most certainly not as evil as we first believed in the orginal trilogy.

For all we know he believed he was fighting for the only thing he had left, and the only thing he had left to believe in.

IMO I think there is a very Shakespearean fell to it all! Ani/Vader is the tragic hero of the story and like everyone has said he believes that what he is doing is good and in the best interest of the galaxy and in the best interest for all those he loves.

Its not that he is lured to the dark side because he wants ultimate power but the power to help people like padem! This can be seen where he is talking with the emperor at that cool light show thing! Hes lured to the dark side not by evil but by love and for the next 30 years or so he believes hes doing good and that this is the way the galaxy should be.

joc_06

I think anakin turned to the dark side initially to do good but once he does there is no way he could believe he is doing good.
He killed younglings in the temple FFS!
Absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that...

OmegaRed

joc_06 wrote:

I think anakin turned to the dark side initially to do good but once he does there is no way he could believe he is doing good.
He killed younglings in the temple FFS!
Absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that...

but going back to what someone was saying before, you can do pure evil but still think you are doing the right thing! again its a point of view. To use as outsiders killing the younglings was the point where he became a monster but vader was following orders to save padem.... he thought he was doing right! plus the emperor lead him to believe that the jedi where the evil ones. If it was the other way and lets say a room full of sith younglings got wiped out do u think we would care as much???