Plot holes

Stabshauptmann

Ok, Leia kissing Luke is not a plot hole, its dramatic irony but not a plot hole. She doesnt know Luke is her brother

Obi wan refering to Luke as the last hope isnt a plot hole since he doesnt know leia is strong in the force. The is no reason to think she is in all honesty since their is no precedent of Jedi having children

What is rediculous in Ep 3 is

The droids twice to take obi wan and anikan captive. Why? If they have their backs to you shot god damn it.

It worked easily enough for the clones at the end of the film.



What some people think is stupid is that obi wan defeated grevious so easily. I did too at the time but if he hadnt then I wouldnt have believed he could defeat darth vader. It was necissary for it to be so easy, it shows how great obi wan is, something that untill that moment hadnt hit home with me.

On a side note whate age is luke do you think in a new hope because obi wan seems to have aged terribly.

Stabshauptmann

Leia remembering her mother isnt a plot hole imo.
I think its meant to show that leia does in fact possess a strong connection with the force.
All she remembers is feelings and a few displaced images

mathie

What was all the fuss about what Yoda said to Obi Wan about meditating with Qui Gonn at the end of EP III?

M

Stabshauptmann

In a new hope Vader was surprised that Obi Wan vanished after being killed.
Obi wan said he would become more powerful than Vader could possible imagine. Vader had the power of imortality but Obi Wan found a new power in death.

This was totally unexplained, it was something new to an order which had existed for a thousand generations. When Yoda mentions it is one of the best parts of the film because it clears a lot up. Its a new thing, developed by a knight who was always thinking outside the box and it was instuemental in defeating darth vader.

JCDenton

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

Vader had the power of imortality but Obi Wan found a new power in death.

?

I thought Vader didn't achieve this power of immortality?
Since the only reason he wanted it was now gone he continued to serve the Emperor for other reasons.

And yet at the very end of the saga he manages to use this power just as Obi-Wan did.

Maybe it's strikingly obvious, but I'm not sure how he did this..

mathie

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

In a new hope Vader was surprised that Obi Wan vanished after being killed.
Obi wan said he would become more powerful than Vader could possible imagine. Vader had the power of imortality but Obi Wan found a new power in death.

This was totally unexplained, it was something new to an order which had existed for a thousand generations. When Yoda mentions it is one of the best parts of the film because it clears a lot up. Its a new thing, developed by a knight who was always thinking outside the box and it was instuemental in defeating darth vader.

Cool thanks! I was wondering how / why he vanished in IV.

What about the whole C3PO and R2D2 recognition rebate?

Ok C3POs memory was wiped but why didn't Obi Wan recognise him? Or R2? And why didnt R2 recognise Obi Wan?

Goodshape

Maybe Obi-Wan was just playing coy.

And how do you know R2 didn't recognise him? He spent 20-odd years keeping stum with C3P0... cheeky little droid tbh.

Kingsize

look at a new hope again,Sir Alec guiness plays the part in a really subtly cagey manner which was either intended by lucas or fortuitous (sic) to his prequels,
obi wan may recognise r2d2 but say nothing,check it out.

BlitzKrieg

funnily enough the whole obi disapearing in a new hope moment never bothered me..i always put it down to them not having the technology for a lightsaber chopping someone in half (earlier they used numerous different shots for the hand being chopped off) so i assumed *ahh he disintergrated* While this finally gives a real explanation, i dont feel that much in awe over it...cant put my finger on why...its like that star trek episode where they explain why klingons change their appearance...never really bothered me.

joc_06

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

In a new hope Vader was surprised that Obi Wan vanished after being killed.
Obi wan said he would become more powerful than Vader could possible imagine. Vader had the power of imortality but Obi Wan found a new power in death.

This was totally unexplained, it was something new to an order which had existed for a thousand generations. When Yoda mentions it is one of the best parts of the film because it clears a lot up. Its a new thing, developed by a knight who was always thinking outside the box and it was instuemental in defeating darth vader.

ok can you explain this to me please?
When did vader achieve immortality?
Is this when he lived at the end?
And how exactly did obi wan find a new power in death? If anything he was lucky that Luke didnt use this anger and loss and turn to the dark side much the same as his da?
please?

BTW. what a film?? I loved it. Gonna have to watch all 4 again in a marathon soon. First two should be erased from living memory (they had to be crap though as they're about a child really. )
I thought the choice of hayden as vader was good because i reckon he really is a sulky brat in real life but limited enough as an actor.

end of his fight scene with obi wan was disappointing .Sur didnt Maul have the high ground on obiwan in the first one and he still managed to get out alive??

drstaunch

hey, dont know if this was brought up before, anyways, in one of episode 4-6 does leia talk about knowing her mother, saying she was very beautiful but very sad or something? dunno, she could have been talking about her adopted mother i guess, unless she remembers when she was born? i dont know, maybe cause the force is strong in here or something?

spudington16

Why could Anakin and Padmé not announce their marraige publicly? Was there some rule about Jedi not marrying or what? That greatly confused me.

drstaunch

spudington16 wrote:

Why could Anakin and Padmé not announce their marraige publicly? Was there some rule about Jedi not marrying or what? That greatly confused me.

i think theres something about Jedi's not marrying alright

rasherboy

i dont think its a rule its more frowned upon i think! and the fact that shes a politician might make things harder etc...especially since he is a jedi the people might of thought that he would influence her politican standings

slave1

okay, if we're talking plot holes its assumed we are discussing ROTS so people should expect spoilers and there is no warning on thread title

original post re grevious V's OB1, grevious was gravely injured by Mace just before he escaped with Palpadine from the surface of Corusant (sic), the injury was to his chest cavity, hence his heavy coughing.
This is a direct follow on from the last fre moments of the Clone Wars animated series 2.
He was an easier taget because of this injury, in the Clone Wars he defeated multiple Jedi at once

Plunky

spudington16 wrote:

Why could Anakin and Padmé not announce their marraige publicly? Was there some rule about Jedi not marrying or what? That greatly confused me.

Isn't it against the Jedi Code, cause Jedi are meant to dedicate their lives to using the Force to help others, and taking a mate could be seen as self serving, and it could easily take away from their selflessness, as they would hold their mate as more important than others, and prioritise with their mate as number 1... Make sense?

rasherboy

Plunky wrote:

Isn't it against the Jedi Code, cause Jedi are meant to dedicate their lives to using the Force to help others, and taking a mate could be seen as self serving, and it could easily take away from their selflessness, as they would hold their mate as more important than others, and prioritise with their mate as number 1... Make sense?

sounds right but i keep thinking back to what aniken said during episode 2 about how they are encouraged to love... if this is true and he wasnt just twisting words it wouldnt realy fit in...

Stabshauptmann

Vader falls into lava, is burnt alive yet lives! The dark side keeps him alive, he has achieved imortality. When in Ep 6 luke appeals to his humanity he leaves the dark side, that is what kills him, not luke and not the emporors lightning.

Yes there is a RULE against marrying.

Vader appearing at the end of Ep 6 actually is a bit strange

Obi wans new power is that he reappears after death like a ghost, something that qui gon learned how to do.

drstaunch wrote:

Dont know if it was brought up before

It was brought up so many times I started this thread and mentioned it in my OP

joc_06

immortality as far i can see wasnt mentioned in 3. what was mentioned was the ability to bring someone back from the dead.
And if Vader had become so powerful how come he never used lightning bolts or over threw the emporer as he talked about near the end?

Stark

What is rediculous in Ep 3 is

The droids twice to take obi wan and anikan captive. Why? If they have their backs to you shot god damn it.

There was a game being played in the background. The sith people didn't want Anakin to die but they wanted to put on a good show.

I also thought Hayden played the part well. Anakin Skwalker reminded me a lot of myself at 18/19. Only difference is I got to make mistakes without much consequence, unlike Anakin. That made it tragic. People say it was sudden, but it all boiled down to one stupid act of desperation when he killed Samuel L. Jackson (always a stupid mistake ), after that there was no turning back as far as he could see.

TerrorFirmer

Obi wans new power is that he reappears after death like a ghost, something that qui gon learned how to do.

I suppose we assume after what Yoda said Obi-Wan is able to commute with Qui Gon and learn the particular power he has gained when he is struck down by Vader in EpIV.

Doesn't exactly explain why Vader is there in RoTJ though, although all I can think of is that its simply because he is the choosen one, who brought balance to the force?

Or more likely Lucas plain and simple didn't think about the new movies in any detail bar the bare bones back then and just saw it as a necessary finish to his trilogy that looked good and pleased audiences.

Anyway, I think there is still a big gap between EpIII and IV, not in terms of technology and effects, but in terms of being able to watch them in chronological order and find them working in together smoothly.

Ideally I think the old movies should be edited again, if to only include some references to the new movies (ie minor flashbacks on Obi-Wans part when telling Luke the Story of his father, Perhaps more personal memories on Vaders part or even Obi-Wan mentioning Padme to him in the hanger scene, mild references to how Palpatine took power and killed the jedi etc )

I think it would really make the 6 movies fit together much more, I still can't watch EpIV and think of that as Anakin/Hayden Christinsen under the suit, it still feels like "Thats just Darth Vader", like hes got nothing whatsoever to do with the one from EpIII and is just a plain old bad guy, as in the same way I can't look at Alec Guiness playing Obi-Wan and realistically imagine him as the same character from the new movies.

With just maybe 20/30 minutes of added audio and details between all 3 movies the original trilogy would slot together so much better with the new one.

joc_06

Heyden as Vader is not convincing. Hes just not physically big enough. Id love to know if the vader original suit is the same dimensions as the new one because in my eye its thinner somehow

TerrorFirmer

joc_06 wrote:

Heyden as Vader is not convincing. Hes just not physically big enough. Id love to know if the vader original suit is the same dimensions as the new one because in my eye its thinner somehow

I don't think it is, as David Prowse is rather large, whereas Christinsen is pretty slim and of average or below height.

He wanted to play Vader himself. Didn't really bother me all that much, considering the original Vader costume in full view was only in it for twenty odd seconds.

Stabshauptmann

joc_06 wrote:

immortality as far i can see wasnt mentioned in 3. what was mentioned was the ability to bring someone back from the dead.
And if Vader had become so powerful how come he never used lightning bolts or over threw the emporer as he talked about near the end?

No immortality wasnt mentioned but

Vader crawls out of the lava ALIVE. So long as he remains loyal to the dark side he wont die.

He has no need to overthrow the emperor, untill he does He throws him down a big shaft. If luke had joined him the two of them would have overthrown him: Join me and we will rule the galaxy as father and son. Remember.

Stabshauptmann

And it wasnt the ability to bring someone back from the dead it was the ability to stop ppl dying

monkeyfudge

joc_06 wrote:

Heyden as Vader is not convincing. Hes just not physically big enough. Id love to know if the vader original suit is the same dimensions as the new one because in my eye its thinner somehow

Apparently Hayden is just 5 inches shorter than Prowse. But he probably isn't as bulky as the Green Cross Code man.

Prowse also didn't play vader during the dueling scenes in Empire Strikes Back either, as he wasn't able to pick up the skills.

joc_06

Just five inches?
a lot of guys would kill for 2 extra inches. 5 more would be massive!!
;-)

TerrorFirmer

Vader crawls out of the lava ALIVE. So long as he remains loyal to the dark side he wont die.

He was never actually in the lava itself. He merely caught fire and was horrifically burnt. The way you say it makes it sound like he calmly strolls whistling out of a fiery pit of molten lava.

Calibos

The way I see this 'Bringing balance to the force' thing is that with the jedi defeating the Sith millenia before, the Light and Darkside were unbalanced in that there were hundreds, if not thousands of Jedi but only a handful of Sith. The Jedi interpretted the vague prophecy of the chosen one bringing balance to the force as somehow being ie. 'Good' thing (maybe like being one with the force like QuiGon discovered, ie the prophecy was so vague they assumed it was good and would help them be more attuned to the force) when in fact what it really meant was that the chosen one ie Anakin would literally bring balance to the force by equalising the numbers of Jedi and Sith, reducing Jedi numbers to 2, Yoda and ObiWan which is in balance with the 2 Sith, Palpatine and Vader. Rather than some metaphysical, metaphorical balance in the force itself.

Well thats what I always thought from the first time I heard the balancing the force term in TPM. Occams Razor Usually the most obvious simple answer is the correct one

What does everyone else think?

TerrorFirmer

Calibos wrote:

The way I see this 'Bringing balance to the force' thing is that with the jedi defeating the Sith millenia before, the Light and Darkside were unbalanced in that there were hundreds, if not thousands of Jedi but only a handful of Sith. The Jedi interpretted the vague prophecy of the chosen one bringing balance to the force as somehow being ie. 'Good' thing (maybe like being one with the force like QuiGon discovered, ie the prophecy was so vague they assumed it was good and would help them be more attuned to the force) when in fact what it really meant was that the chosen one ie Anakin would literally bring balance to the force by equalising the numbers of Jedi and Sith, reducing Jedi numbers to 2, Yoda and ObiWan which is in balance with the 2 Sith, Palpatine and Vader. Rather than some metaphysical, metaphorical balance in the force itself.

Well thats what I always thought from the first time I heard the balancing the force term in TPM. Occams Razor Usually the most obvious simple answer is the correct one

What does everyone else think?

Bring balance to the force, as in bringing peace to it. Its not a simple case of there being equal numbers of Jedi and Sith. Anakin brings an end to the existance of the Sith and with it comes at long last unrivalled peace in the galaxy and freedom form oppression etc.

Calibos

MobileInfantry wrote:

Bring balance to the force, as in bringing peace to it. Its not a simple case of there being equal numbers of Jedi and Sith. Anakin brings an end to the existance of the Sith and with it comes at long last unrivalled peace in the galaxy and freedom form oppression etc.

You, my young padawan should be on the council as you are as guilty of overlooking the obvious as Yoda and the rest of the council were. ie interpretting the prophecy as if it had a metaphorical and metapysical meaning rather than the prophecy actually being literal.

I guess both our interpretations are valid, ie mine is that Vader/Anakin literally brought balance to the force in ROTS and yours that Vader/Anakin metaphiscally brought balance in the force by completly eliminating the Evil Sith in ROTJ by killing the Emperor and reverting to the lightside himself.

I don't think Lucas intended for it to be interpretted in 2 different ways and the 'wrong' one probably never even occured to him but I guess its lucky that it did turn out to be interpretted in many ways as it gives us something to debate about

][cEMAN**

Besides, in the expanded universe you find there were other jedi in the universe in hiding.

Sure,

in ROTS obi-wan reconfigures a distress beacon to warn any remaining jedi that the temple has been taken over. It never says that all but yoda and he were killed. It implies that there are others out there. Though it does state that there is only EVER 1 sith lord and one sith apprentice.

hardCopy

Calibos wrote:

The way I see this 'Bringing balance to the force' thing is that with the jedi defeating the Sith millenia before, the Light and Darkside were unbalanced in that there were hundreds, if not thousands of Jedi but only a handful of Sith. The Jedi interpretted the vague prophecy of the chosen one bringing balance to the force as somehow being ie. 'Good' thing (maybe like being one with the force like QuiGon discovered, ie the prophecy was so vague they assumed it was good and would help them be more attuned to the force) when in fact what it really meant was that the chosen one ie Anakin would literally bring balance to the force by equalising the numbers of Jedi and Sith, reducing Jedi numbers to 2, Yoda and ObiWan which is in balance with the 2 Sith, Palpatine and Vader. Rather than some metaphysical, metaphorical balance in the force itself.

Well thats what I always thought from the first time I heard the balancing the force term in TPM. Occams Razor Usually the most obvious simple answer is the correct one

What does everyone else think?

Yoda hints at some realisation like this in Clone Wars cartoons, windu mentions Anakin being the one from the prophecy and Yoda responds that the prophecy may have been misinterpreted. I know the non-movie stuff ain't really canon but just thought it was worth mentioning

rasherboy wrote:

sounds right but i keep thinking back to what aniken said during episode 2 about how they are encouraged to love... if this is true and he wasnt just twisting words it wouldnt realy fit in...

I think here he was just twisting words, he says that posession and love are forbidden by the jedi code but that compassion is encouraged, he then reasons that compassion is simply unconditional love in order to talk padmé round to bunking with him

iguana

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

On a side note whate age is luke do you think in a new hope because obi wan seems to have aged terribly.

Luke and Leia are 17/18 in A New Hope. And why wouldn't Obi Wan have aged. His whole galaxy was quite literally torn apart.

All of his friends are dead or hiding, so he can't meet them again til he dies. Everything he believes in is gone. He watched his best friend destroy the council and kill the children (on holo-recording). Then he had to kill his best friend, and watch his friends wife die in childbirth. Then he had to seperate two baby twins. Then he had to (at some point that we don't see) learn that he didn't kill his best friend afterall, he has lived to become the most powerful, evil creature in the galaxy!

I think all that combined with 18 years on a desert planet would age you a lot!

Stabshauptmann

suppose it would.
Im just surprised that yoda lives to be like 900, but every other jedi seems to age normally throughout the 6 movies

nice the way they speed up the emporors aging, was wondering how that would happen.

iguana

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

suppose it would.
Im just surprised that yoda lives to be like 900, but every other jedi seems to age normally throughout the 6 movies

nice the way they speed up the emporors aging, was wondering how that would happen.

I always figured he just belongs to a species that has that kind of lifespan, like chewie is about 200 in ANH.

TerrorFirmer

in ROTS obi-wan reconfigures a distress beacon to warn any remaining jedi that the temple has been taken over. It never says that all but yoda and he were killed. It implies that there are others out there. Though it does state that there is only EVER 1 sith lord and one sith apprentice.

Given the huge size of both the order and the galaxy itself its safe to assume there were a considerable amount of Jedi left alive after the initial betrayal. However, it is Darth Vader who hunts and exterminates the survivors in between epIII and IV.

I really hope this is a background theme in the new TV show.

guess both our interpretations are valid, ie mine is that Vader/Anakin literally brought balance to the force in ROTS and yours that Vader/Anakin metaphiscally brought balance in the force by completly eliminating the Evil Sith in ROTJ by killing the Emperor and reverting to the lightside himself.

Not really, as it's a fantasty world created by George Lucas, however he intended it is the sole possible interpetation, which would seriously seem from the old movies that to restore Balance to the force occurs when Vader destroys the emperor and redeems himself from the Dark Side, thus bringing peace to the galaxy and removing the threat of evil.

If your view of taking it literally, in equal numbers, then ultimately Luke Skywalker destroys the prophecy and makes the entire ideals of the original trilogy kind of stupid....something Lucas I'm sure didn't intend in any form.

Lucas can be childish, but I don't think, after the fantastic galaxy he created, that he would have something so literal and simple and balance to the force meaning equal numbers.

In any case, with your theory, Vader did not bring balance to the force anyway in RoTS - not all the Jedi were killed.

Basically I think to bring balance to the force means to bring harmony, peace and prosperity, not literally evening out the sides.

I think ultimately, Vader brought balance to the force not through his actions, but by having Luke as his son.

Unless you count him poking padme as an action.

joc_06

The more i read it, i agree with Calibos re balance to the force. I dont mean anything as literal as having equal numbers of sith and jedi but each side having equal power or relatively close.
It makes perfect sense.
Did the prohecy say bring balance to the force? If that is the case then im certain that anakin was destined to become vader as he did bring balance to the force. Luke destroyed that prophecy then by turning his father and helping overthrow the emporer.
It makes perfect sense.

The one thing that i dont get in the whole film is why vader didnt overthrow the emporer and replace him much earlier? The dark side is all about looking inwards and self empowerment so
it would have been expected that vader would try take the reigns.
Also if vader is much more powerful than the emporer how come he couldnt defeat luke but emporer could. Why did he not use lightning bolts or something more extravagent??

TerrorFirmer

Also if vader is much more powerful than the emporer how come he couldnt defeat luke but emporer could. Why did he not use lightning bolts or something more extravagent??

I honesty think that final fight scene in RotJ needs reediting or something for another re-release.

In comparison to the new films it makes Vader look like a weak and clumsy fighter. It needs more visual flair and style, as well as speed and agility.

Watching the end of RotJ and seeing Vader loose to Luke so easily and tbh in a stupid and pathetic way (Luke hammering him down and down was class in honesty, but its just not the way Vader should have gone!)

IT should have been more of an epic battle, much longer and much more closer matched with a hell of alot more speed and skill on show.

Plunky

In fairness, by then he had been burned to pieces and had multiple extremities cut off and replaced with prosthetics... He was also in that big ole (albeit cool) clumsy suit... Even with the technology they had, I think it'd be hard to be any more agile!..

TerrorFirmer

Plunky wrote:

In fairness, by then he had been burned to pieces and had multiple extremities cut off and replaced with prosthetics... He was also in that big ole (albeit cool) clumsy suit... Even with the technology they had, I think it'd be hard to be any more agile!..

Not really, as it is supposed to be Vader who hunts down and kills the remainder of the Jedi....also, if that were the case, even despite his aging years Obi-Wan should have been able to defeat him in ANH, but he wasn't - Vader even says that Obi has retained his old skills.

So even though that fight scene was rubbish, it was mean to be in theory a fight between two very skilled warriors - with Vader being more powerful.

Plunky

it is supposed to be Vader who hunts down and kills the remainder of the Jedi

personally?.. I'm not sure how much water that actually holds, considering there's an entire universe with Jedi in it!.. Maybe part of the reason that ObiWan couldn't defeat him in ANH was to do with the fact that while he was reclusive on Tatooine, Vader was out battling and still developing his skill with a sabre, whereas ObiWan was probably just training like Yoda told him he could at the end of RotS. As opposed to using his lightsabre. and even if he was, he didn't have anyone to fight against, thus could learn no new skills. Vader still had a master to teach him about the Force.
I'll have to go back and watch it again, but tbh I think it lived up to the way I feel it should have been...

TerrorFirmer

Plunky wrote:

personally?.. I'm not sure how much water that actually holds, considering there's an entire universe with Jedi in it!.. Maybe part of the reason that ObiWan couldn't defeat him in ANH was to do with the fact that while he was reclusive on Tatooine, Vader was out battling and still developing his skill with a sabre, whereas ObiWan was probably just training like Yoda told him he could at the end of RotS. As opposed to using his lightsabre. and even if he was, he didn't have anyone to fight against, thus could learn no new skills. Vader still had a master to teach him about the Force.
I'll have to go back and watch it again, but tbh I think it lived up to the way I feel it should have been...

That is Valid, but he wouldn't have disimproved to an extent that he was actually bad....I know the suit implies that Vader has less agility and power then he once had, but tbh I think Lucas originally didn't see it that way....he created Vader as an all powerful and feared warrior with immense skills

Capt'n Midnight

The Sith

If there are only ever two of them and alot of the time only one since number two tends to die off frequently and then there is the lead time in recruting and training.. how come they never die out when both are killed ???

Plunky

..When are both ever killed? they're not!.. Hence not dying out!

iguana

In ROTJ Vader is fighting his son, he has also just learned he has a daughter. Did it ever occur to you that maybe, deep-down, he did not want to kill his son? Especially seeing as only minutes later he sacrifices himself in order to save him!

After seeing ROTS I think this is even more obvious, as Anakin was turned to the dark-side in order to save someone he loves as he keeps losing people and doesn't want to be helpless in the face of death. Then he loses her anyway and I'm pretty sure he was a bit heartbroken. Then he spends the next 20ish years thinking he has no-one, then discovers he has a son, then a daughter. I don't think he would want to kill them.

However, there must also have been a bit of an internal struggle when he killed Palpatine as the man had been like a father to him for over 30 years.

TerrorFirmer

Plunky wrote:

..When are both ever killed? they're not!.. Hence not dying out!

Exactly!

By the way, I always wondered where Maul came from....why is he strong with the force? At what age did he start training with palpatine? And how? And where!?

Plunky

That's an actual plot hole, MI... Dunno, tbh, maybe we should email Lucas to do a prequel to the prequels! Seriously though, the same question arises about the Protege Dooku gets during the Clone Wars to lure Anakin. Hold on... That would mean that at one stage there were three of them! does that mean the Jedi don't fully understand the Sith when they always assume there's only 2 of them, or does it mean that GL messed up?..

Devious

joc_06 wrote:

The one thing that i dont get in the whole film is why vader didnt overthrow the emporer and replace him much earlier? The dark side is all about looking inwards and self empowerment so
it would have been expected that vader would try take the reigns.

Thats a very good point. Its actually EXPECTED that a pupil of the dark side will attempt to kill their master, its one of the main principles of the Sith as it allows for the strong to continue on and the weak get weeded out. So why doesn't Vader do this? The only explanation I can think of is that he never FULLY gives himself to the dark side and as such can never bring himself to kill Palpatine. For all we know Vader BELIEVES he is on the side of justice right up to his death, believing in the fight to maintain the Republic/Empire whatever the price. You can see how this view might not nescessarily be considered totally evil from some points of view.

On a seperate note, I think a logical explanation for Vader's half-hearted duel with Luke in ROTJ is that he is fighting his son and is in the midst of turning back to the light side, therefore is unwilling cause him any harm.

Plunky

Sidious was stronger than Vader with the Dark Side, and I reckon Vader saw this when he was being turned. Even the darkest Sith Lord has a certain regard for their own life, and I'd say Vader felt that going up against Sidious would be suicidal...

][cEMAN**

I think through it all Vader has just felt alone. Note a direct similarity when he asks padme to rule the galaxy with him, and then when he asks luke to rule the galaxy with him.

Without someone to rule with, he doesn't really feel like he wants it, or that he could do it. It was love and fear and turned him to the dark side. He was afraid of losing padme. He was all for letting Luke turn to the dark side and join him. The only reason he killed the emperor was because he was going to lose Luke.

You could see that he had to think about this for a minute. I think part of it was a fear of overthrowing the emperor alone.

Don't forget - the Jedi council let anakin on the council but wouldn't make him a master because he still wasn't ready for it. He wasn't a leader. He was still a pupil - a soldier. For all of his dreams, I don't think Vader could rule alone. He has a lot of tactical awareness, but I don't think he has the ability to rule. Padme was always his anchor. Luke could have become this as well. Without it, he latched onto the emperor.