Plot holes

Stabshauptmann

Ok, Leia kissing Luke is not a plot hole, its dramatic irony but not a plot hole. She doesnt know Luke is her brother

Obi wan refering to Luke as the last hope isnt a plot hole since he doesnt know leia is strong in the force. The is no reason to think she is in all honesty since their is no precedent of Jedi having children

What is rediculous in Ep 3 is

The droids twice to take obi wan and anikan captive. Why? If they have their backs to you shot god damn it.

It worked easily enough for the clones at the end of the film.



What some people think is stupid is that obi wan defeated grevious so easily. I did too at the time but if he hadnt then I wouldnt have believed he could defeat darth vader. It was necissary for it to be so easy, it shows how great obi wan is, something that untill that moment hadnt hit home with me.

On a side note whate age is luke do you think in a new hope because obi wan seems to have aged terribly.

Stabshauptmann

Leia remembering her mother isnt a plot hole imo.
I think its meant to show that leia does in fact possess a strong connection with the force.
All she remembers is feelings and a few displaced images

mathie

What was all the fuss about what Yoda said to Obi Wan about meditating with Qui Gonn at the end of EP III?

M

Stabshauptmann

In a new hope Vader was surprised that Obi Wan vanished after being killed.
Obi wan said he would become more powerful than Vader could possible imagine. Vader had the power of imortality but Obi Wan found a new power in death.

This was totally unexplained, it was something new to an order which had existed for a thousand generations. When Yoda mentions it is one of the best parts of the film because it clears a lot up. Its a new thing, developed by a knight who was always thinking outside the box and it was instuemental in defeating darth vader.

JCDenton

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

Vader had the power of imortality but Obi Wan found a new power in death.

?

I thought Vader didn't achieve this power of immortality?
Since the only reason he wanted it was now gone he continued to serve the Emperor for other reasons.

And yet at the very end of the saga he manages to use this power just as Obi-Wan did.

Maybe it's strikingly obvious, but I'm not sure how he did this..

mathie

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

In a new hope Vader was surprised that Obi Wan vanished after being killed.
Obi wan said he would become more powerful than Vader could possible imagine. Vader had the power of imortality but Obi Wan found a new power in death.

This was totally unexplained, it was something new to an order which had existed for a thousand generations. When Yoda mentions it is one of the best parts of the film because it clears a lot up. Its a new thing, developed by a knight who was always thinking outside the box and it was instuemental in defeating darth vader.

Cool thanks! I was wondering how / why he vanished in IV.

What about the whole C3PO and R2D2 recognition rebate?

Ok C3POs memory was wiped but why didn't Obi Wan recognise him? Or R2? And why didnt R2 recognise Obi Wan?

Goodshape

Maybe Obi-Wan was just playing coy.

And how do you know R2 didn't recognise him? He spent 20-odd years keeping stum with C3P0... cheeky little droid tbh.

Kingsize

look at a new hope again,Sir Alec guiness plays the part in a really subtly cagey manner which was either intended by lucas or fortuitous (sic) to his prequels,
obi wan may recognise r2d2 but say nothing,check it out.

BlitzKrieg

funnily enough the whole obi disapearing in a new hope moment never bothered me..i always put it down to them not having the technology for a lightsaber chopping someone in half (earlier they used numerous different shots for the hand being chopped off) so i assumed *ahh he disintergrated* While this finally gives a real explanation, i dont feel that much in awe over it...cant put my finger on why...its like that star trek episode where they explain why klingons change their appearance...never really bothered me.

joc_06

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

In a new hope Vader was surprised that Obi Wan vanished after being killed.
Obi wan said he would become more powerful than Vader could possible imagine. Vader had the power of imortality but Obi Wan found a new power in death.

This was totally unexplained, it was something new to an order which had existed for a thousand generations. When Yoda mentions it is one of the best parts of the film because it clears a lot up. Its a new thing, developed by a knight who was always thinking outside the box and it was instuemental in defeating darth vader.

ok can you explain this to me please?
When did vader achieve immortality?
Is this when he lived at the end?
And how exactly did obi wan find a new power in death? If anything he was lucky that Luke didnt use this anger and loss and turn to the dark side much the same as his da?
please?

BTW. what a film?? I loved it. Gonna have to watch all 4 again in a marathon soon. First two should be erased from living memory (they had to be crap though as they're about a child really. )
I thought the choice of hayden as vader was good because i reckon he really is a sulky brat in real life but limited enough as an actor.

end of his fight scene with obi wan was disappointing .Sur didnt Maul have the high ground on obiwan in the first one and he still managed to get out alive??

drstaunch

hey, dont know if this was brought up before, anyways, in one of episode 4-6 does leia talk about knowing her mother, saying she was very beautiful but very sad or something? dunno, she could have been talking about her adopted mother i guess, unless she remembers when she was born? i dont know, maybe cause the force is strong in here or something?

spudington16

Why could Anakin and Padmé not announce their marraige publicly? Was there some rule about Jedi not marrying or what? That greatly confused me.

drstaunch

spudington16 wrote:

Why could Anakin and Padmé not announce their marraige publicly? Was there some rule about Jedi not marrying or what? That greatly confused me.

i think theres something about Jedi's not marrying alright

rasherboy

i dont think its a rule its more frowned upon i think! and the fact that shes a politician might make things harder etc...especially since he is a jedi the people might of thought that he would influence her politican standings

slave1

okay, if we're talking plot holes its assumed we are discussing ROTS so people should expect spoilers and there is no warning on thread title

original post re grevious V's OB1, grevious was gravely injured by Mace just before he escaped with Palpadine from the surface of Corusant (sic), the injury was to his chest cavity, hence his heavy coughing.
This is a direct follow on from the last fre moments of the Clone Wars animated series 2.
He was an easier taget because of this injury, in the Clone Wars he defeated multiple Jedi at once

Plunky

spudington16 wrote:

Why could Anakin and Padmé not announce their marraige publicly? Was there some rule about Jedi not marrying or what? That greatly confused me.

Isn't it against the Jedi Code, cause Jedi are meant to dedicate their lives to using the Force to help others, and taking a mate could be seen as self serving, and it could easily take away from their selflessness, as they would hold their mate as more important than others, and prioritise with their mate as number 1... Make sense?

rasherboy

Plunky wrote:

Isn't it against the Jedi Code, cause Jedi are meant to dedicate their lives to using the Force to help others, and taking a mate could be seen as self serving, and it could easily take away from their selflessness, as they would hold their mate as more important than others, and prioritise with their mate as number 1... Make sense?

sounds right but i keep thinking back to what aniken said during episode 2 about how they are encouraged to love... if this is true and he wasnt just twisting words it wouldnt realy fit in...

Stabshauptmann

Vader falls into lava, is burnt alive yet lives! The dark side keeps him alive, he has achieved imortality. When in Ep 6 luke appeals to his humanity he leaves the dark side, that is what kills him, not luke and not the emporors lightning.

Yes there is a RULE against marrying.

Vader appearing at the end of Ep 6 actually is a bit strange

Obi wans new power is that he reappears after death like a ghost, something that qui gon learned how to do.

drstaunch wrote:

Dont know if it was brought up before

It was brought up so many times I started this thread and mentioned it in my OP

joc_06

immortality as far i can see wasnt mentioned in 3. what was mentioned was the ability to bring someone back from the dead.
And if Vader had become so powerful how come he never used lightning bolts or over threw the emporer as he talked about near the end?

Stark

What is rediculous in Ep 3 is

The droids twice to take obi wan and anikan captive. Why? If they have their backs to you shot god damn it.

There was a game being played in the background. The sith people didn't want Anakin to die but they wanted to put on a good show.

I also thought Hayden played the part well. Anakin Skwalker reminded me a lot of myself at 18/19. Only difference is I got to make mistakes without much consequence, unlike Anakin. That made it tragic. People say it was sudden, but it all boiled down to one stupid act of desperation when he killed Samuel L. Jackson (always a stupid mistake ), after that there was no turning back as far as he could see.

TerrorFirmer

Obi wans new power is that he reappears after death like a ghost, something that qui gon learned how to do.

I suppose we assume after what Yoda said Obi-Wan is able to commute with Qui Gon and learn the particular power he has gained when he is struck down by Vader in EpIV.

Doesn't exactly explain why Vader is there in RoTJ though, although all I can think of is that its simply because he is the choosen one, who brought balance to the force?

Or more likely Lucas plain and simple didn't think about the new movies in any detail bar the bare bones back then and just saw it as a necessary finish to his trilogy that looked good and pleased audiences.

Anyway, I think there is still a big gap between EpIII and IV, not in terms of technology and effects, but in terms of being able to watch them in chronological order and find them working in together smoothly.

Ideally I think the old movies should be edited again, if to only include some references to the new movies (ie minor flashbacks on Obi-Wans part when telling Luke the Story of his father, Perhaps more personal memories on Vaders part or even Obi-Wan mentioning Padme to him in the hanger scene, mild references to how Palpatine took power and killed the jedi etc )

I think it would really make the 6 movies fit together much more, I still can't watch EpIV and think of that as Anakin/Hayden Christinsen under the suit, it still feels like "Thats just Darth Vader", like hes got nothing whatsoever to do with the one from EpIII and is just a plain old bad guy, as in the same way I can't look at Alec Guiness playing Obi-Wan and realistically imagine him as the same character from the new movies.

With just maybe 20/30 minutes of added audio and details between all 3 movies the original trilogy would slot together so much better with the new one.

joc_06

Heyden as Vader is not convincing. Hes just not physically big enough. Id love to know if the vader original suit is the same dimensions as the new one because in my eye its thinner somehow

TerrorFirmer

joc_06 wrote:

Heyden as Vader is not convincing. Hes just not physically big enough. Id love to know if the vader original suit is the same dimensions as the new one because in my eye its thinner somehow

I don't think it is, as David Prowse is rather large, whereas Christinsen is pretty slim and of average or below height.

He wanted to play Vader himself. Didn't really bother me all that much, considering the original Vader costume in full view was only in it for twenty odd seconds.

Stabshauptmann

joc_06 wrote:

immortality as far i can see wasnt mentioned in 3. what was mentioned was the ability to bring someone back from the dead.
And if Vader had become so powerful how come he never used lightning bolts or over threw the emporer as he talked about near the end?

No immortality wasnt mentioned but

Vader crawls out of the lava ALIVE. So long as he remains loyal to the dark side he wont die.

He has no need to overthrow the emperor, untill he does He throws him down a big shaft. If luke had joined him the two of them would have overthrown him: Join me and we will rule the galaxy as father and son. Remember.

Stabshauptmann

And it wasnt the ability to bring someone back from the dead it was the ability to stop ppl dying

monkeyfudge

joc_06 wrote:

Heyden as Vader is not convincing. Hes just not physically big enough. Id love to know if the vader original suit is the same dimensions as the new one because in my eye its thinner somehow

Apparently Hayden is just 5 inches shorter than Prowse. But he probably isn't as bulky as the Green Cross Code man.

Prowse also didn't play vader during the dueling scenes in Empire Strikes Back either, as he wasn't able to pick up the skills.

joc_06

Just five inches?
a lot of guys would kill for 2 extra inches. 5 more would be massive!!
;-)

TerrorFirmer

Vader crawls out of the lava ALIVE. So long as he remains loyal to the dark side he wont die.

He was never actually in the lava itself. He merely caught fire and was horrifically burnt. The way you say it makes it sound like he calmly strolls whistling out of a fiery pit of molten lava.

Calibos

The way I see this 'Bringing balance to the force' thing is that with the jedi defeating the Sith millenia before, the Light and Darkside were unbalanced in that there were hundreds, if not thousands of Jedi but only a handful of Sith. The Jedi interpretted the vague prophecy of the chosen one bringing balance to the force as somehow being ie. 'Good' thing (maybe like being one with the force like QuiGon discovered, ie the prophecy was so vague they assumed it was good and would help them be more attuned to the force) when in fact what it really meant was that the chosen one ie Anakin would literally bring balance to the force by equalising the numbers of Jedi and Sith, reducing Jedi numbers to 2, Yoda and ObiWan which is in balance with the 2 Sith, Palpatine and Vader. Rather than some metaphysical, metaphorical balance in the force itself.

Well thats what I always thought from the first time I heard the balancing the force term in TPM. Occams Razor Usually the most obvious simple answer is the correct one

What does everyone else think?

TerrorFirmer

Calibos wrote:

The way I see this 'Bringing balance to the force' thing is that with the jedi defeating the Sith millenia before, the Light and Darkside were unbalanced in that there were hundreds, if not thousands of Jedi but only a handful of Sith. The Jedi interpretted the vague prophecy of the chosen one bringing balance to the force as somehow being ie. 'Good' thing (maybe like being one with the force like QuiGon discovered, ie the prophecy was so vague they assumed it was good and would help them be more attuned to the force) when in fact what it really meant was that the chosen one ie Anakin would literally bring balance to the force by equalising the numbers of Jedi and Sith, reducing Jedi numbers to 2, Yoda and ObiWan which is in balance with the 2 Sith, Palpatine and Vader. Rather than some metaphysical, metaphorical balance in the force itself.

Well thats what I always thought from the first time I heard the balancing the force term in TPM. Occams Razor Usually the most obvious simple answer is the correct one

What does everyone else think?

Bring balance to the force, as in bringing peace to it. Its not a simple case of there being equal numbers of Jedi and Sith. Anakin brings an end to the existance of the Sith and with it comes at long last unrivalled peace in the galaxy and freedom form oppression etc.

Calibos

MobileInfantry wrote:

Bring balance to the force, as in bringing peace to it. Its not a simple case of there being equal numbers of Jedi and Sith. Anakin brings an end to the existance of the Sith and with it comes at long last unrivalled peace in the galaxy and freedom form oppression etc.

You, my young padawan should be on the council as you are as guilty of overlooking the obvious as Yoda and the rest of the council were. ie interpretting the prophecy as if it had a metaphorical and metapysical meaning rather than the prophecy actually being literal.

I guess both our interpretations are valid, ie mine is that Vader/Anakin literally brought balance to the force in ROTS and yours that Vader/Anakin metaphiscally brought balance in the force by completly eliminating the Evil Sith in ROTJ by killing the Emperor and reverting to the lightside himself.

I don't think Lucas intended for it to be interpretted in 2 different ways and the 'wrong' one probably never even occured to him but I guess its lucky that it did turn out to be interpretted in many ways as it gives us something to debate about