Evolution V Creationism

bounty · 12-04-2005 02:03AM

bravestarr082 wrote:

Look at the bigger picture people, what the hell created the universe we live in now(i know about the 'big bang theory') but what was here b4. its mind boggling to even fathom, you cant just say there was nothing? evoultion and creationism could easily both be true.

creationalism is wrong because its answer to every question is "god did it", which is infinite answers, and therefore no answer at all

bravestarr082 wrote:

what 'IF' a higher being did make the universe, the earth simply found itself in the right place with the right exact conditions necessary to start off with that single cell we all evolved from.

there is over 100 billion x 100 billion systems, the odds are there is millions of planets with the right conditions for life

bravestarr082 wrote:

i'd like to believe if you could get to the end of 'space' and travel faster then its expanding thereby leaving space, you could meet up with who/whatever is responsible (or you could and probably would just enter nothingness and die horribly)

i think the first step to understanding what the creator is, is to prevent ourselfs from blowing the planet up. the next step is to become immortal, after that its inevitable

SoupyNorman · 12-04-2005 02:07AM

there is over 100 billion x 100 billion systems, the odds are there is millions of planets with the right conditions for life

that is my favourite statistic about space.

i believe more in the evolution theory then the creation side but at the end of it all i think there is something beyond our comprehension wether its a god or a devil or ALF!

Calibos · 12-04-2005 03:42AM

bounty wrote:

Heres a really good debate on a talk radio show, with the head of a creationalist church who build that museum and some well informed call in guests

http://www.infidelguy.com/demo/infidelguy.com_hovind_vs_ig.mp3

(save target as...)

Damn You Sir!! I went to bed 2 hours later than I intended.

:D

Great Stuff!

Branoic · 12-04-2005 09:43AM

I believe in the theory of evolution. I'm relucant to call it "Darwin's Theory of Evolution" because its advanced quite a bit since the time of Darwin. That's the problem with most Creationists. In their search to debunk evolution they look no further than Darwin and actually ignore the theory and research of the modern age. Calling modern evolution theory "Darwin's Theory" is like refusing to fly because the Wright Brothers' plane looked a bit dodgy.

Memnoch · 12-04-2005 10:15AM

that radio show is brilliant, one of the callers totally shows how this kent guy is a liar.

but it's not surprising, no matter how intelligent, whenever creationists try to debunk science is how they take things out of context and misrepresent the facts to make their arguements. Some are smarter and better at doing it than others like the guy in the radio show but at the end he was totally caught lying.

Trojan · 12-04-2005 10:29AM

This is unAmerican talk right here.

skywalker · 12-04-2005 10:45AM

Kingsize · 12-04-2005 10:55AM

why does it have to be one or the other?
we're probably all jsut characters in a very bad mini series

karlh · 12-04-2005 12:24PM

Gordon wrote:

I think that I'm making everything up in my head. Nothing really exists except my imagination.

that means you created Chris DeBurgh.

get 'im scouts! :mad:

Gordon · 12-04-2005 01:40PM

karlh wrote:

that means you created Chris DeBurgh.

get 'im scouts! :mad:

Yes this is true and I'm sorry.

But I also created the scouts so I will get them to come over to your place and kill you quickly with their origami.

Moriarty · 12-04-2005 02:14PM

bounty wrote:

http://www.infidelguy.com/demo/infidelguy.com_hovind_vs_ig.mp3

Anyone want to mirror this? I'm getting a 404 and it looks like you need to pay to grab it from the site..?

bounty · 12-04-2005 02:25PM

save target as

its one of the free shows on the front page

ctrl + f for "Hovind" on www.infidelguy.com

SoupyNorman · 12-04-2005 02:37PM

im listening to it now....i had no problemos!

Catsmokinpot · 12-04-2005 03:33PM

im sure we can all agree that we dont have a clue whats going on

i believe in evolution, but i also believe in god. all you people that say you dont believe in god and frown upon me. i say show me some proof that god doesnt exist! i believe in science and i believe that only through science we will learn more about the world around us but, dont think any amount of science can prove weather or not god exists and i also think arguing about weather or not god exists or 'who's god is the right one?' is ultimately pointless

bounty wrote:

creationalism is wrong because its answer to every question is "god did it", which is infinite answers, and therefore no answer at all

you cant say its wrong because you have no proof

bounty wrote:

there is over 100 billion x 100 billion systems, the odds are there is millions of planets with the right conditions for life

thats right there are, its selfish to believe that we are the only people in the entire universe again that doesnt even suggest that god doesnt exist only that there possibly are other forms of life.

this is exactly what i believe:

when they say god created the universe in 7 days in the bible, it also says in the bible that a day to god is like a thousand years. obviously since people in the olden days had no idea how much time we actually were here and a thousand years seemed an accurate and fathomable representation of a seriously long time

so god created the universe he started the big bang the universe started expanding, life arrived in this part of the galaxy the universe keeps expanding untill eventually some say its going to collapse in on itself, energy will be transformed back in to matter and the big bang will start all over again.

the only reason god put us here was to experience the universe he created because if we didnt experience the universe their would be no point in it even existing

to semi-quote the simpsons

Lisa: if a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound?
Bart: no
Lisa: How can sound exist if their is no-one there to hear it?

bounty · 12-04-2005 04:38PM

you cant say its wrong because you have no proof

The arguement is evolution versus creationism. On the one hand we have whole librarys and museums full of evidence supporting evolution. And on the other hand we have the stupid infinite answers trick that "god did it".

thats right there are, its selfish to believe that we are the only people in the entire universe again that doesnt even suggest that god doesnt exist only that there possibly are other forms of life.

God is undefined, there is zero evidence about the creator of the universe. No can say with any confidence, anything about it.

Hobbes · 12-04-2005 05:14PM

Catsmokinpot wrote:

you cant say its wrong because you have no proof

You can't say its right either because you have no proof. What is the point you are getting at?

Generally it is up to the person to make the accusation to prove it.

so god created the universe he started the big bang the universe started...

So who created god then?

to semi-quote the simpsons

Actually it is from Zen.

Doper Than U · 12-04-2005 05:31PM

Lisa: if a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound?
Bart: no
Lisa: How can sound exist if there is no-one there to hear it?

the only reason god put us here was to experience the universe he created because if we didnt experience the universe there would be no point in it even existing

Well it may be Zen, but it's BS. The sound exists whether we are there to hear it or not. Noise was not created for humanity alone.... animals also have ears. That's if you even believe that noise was "created" at all. Noise was here first, we developed ears to take advantage of it. Not all "noise" (vibrations) is "heard" either (ultrasound), and not all animals use/hear/experience noise the same way (snakes, bats, dogs, humans.. etc etc).

Memnoch · 12-04-2005 05:52PM

well i have to say that after listening to the radio talk show i'm now convinced in favor of evolutionism, though I was kinda leaning that way already. What really did it for me was the guy at the end calling in from belfast who really knew what he was talking about and as he pointed out, evolution is a theory that has been practically applied to modern day applications to change and improve our lives for the better. It's actually produced something. And scientific theories that are false or don't hold true, rarely produce anything of actual value.

ExOffender · 13-04-2005 01:56AM

Catsmokinpot wrote:

all you people that say you dont believe in god and frown upon me. i say show me some proof that god doesnt exist!

Posit a universe-creator, the archetypal Prime Progenitor, the Unmoved Mover, God Almighty and All-powerful Etc. If this 'God' is omnipotent, can it create a really heavy rock? Surely. Can it lift rocks, too? Sure. Even really heavy ones. So: can this God create a rock that's too heavy for it to lift? Because if that's the case, this God cannot be all-powerful (can't lift the rock), and if it's not the case, this God cannot be all-powerful (can't create the too-heavy rock). So omnipotence, and hence God, (from the limited perspective of formal logic) cannot exist. This is the 'irresistible force v. immovable object' debate, and the two cannot exist in the same universe since, by definition, the existence of one negates the existence of the other.

when they say god created the universe in 7 days in the bible...

You've made the classic 'rookie mistake' here, of divorcing yourself from the narrative truth-claim of the text, the literal truth of six days to create the universe, without managing to let go of the idea that the Bible in some way reflects the reality of what for want of a better word I must call 'creation'. It's pointless to try and rationalise the superstitious gibberish of Genesis. It's a wonderful text from an anthropological and sociological point of view, it's a valuable cultural entity, but it's also completely made-up. I can say this with absolute confidence (former theology student). Creationism is not an indefensible theory, but you're far better off leaving the Bible out of it, IMHO. How did the people who wrote the Bible know all this stuff to write it down in the first place?

the only reason god put us here was to experience the universe he created because if we didnt experience the universe their would be no point in it even existing

And the point of our experiencing it is...?

On the God question, I just can't hack the notion of some happy magician in the sky who'll reward us with our every wish after we die, as long as we're 'good' down here. Like Santa Claus writ large. It really is like an imaginary friend for adults. I don't completely rule out the theory of a creator god, the sort of 'watchmaker' idea, set it all up and then bugger off, but the idea of an interested god, one that is familiar with us all and directly concerned with each of us? I'll eat vegetables and I'll eat meat, but there is some s*** I will not eat, as ee cummings once wrote.

condra · 13-04-2005 02:58AM

Im sorry but I think religion is unreasonable.

Evolution is all around us.

Lets not be retrogressive like those stupid fcuking religously fanatical middle class white trash americans who have insisted that the theory of evolution not be thought in schools as fact.

It is so so sad to see reason and logic be thrown out the window with such ignorant brainwashed enthusiasm.

I believe we should have a secular state. Religion should have nothing to do with politics. And our children should have the right to be fully and roundly educated as they grow up without religous or political beliefs being forced upon them.

][cEMAN** · 13-04-2005 10:19AM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

darwins theory was flawed, but is still a little bit more convincing than some 'higher life form' that no one has ever seen, and have no proof of, suddenly decided to make a bunch of people on a planet inthe middle of nowhere.

what do you think?

Tell that to the SIMS!!!

Catsmokinpot · 13-04-2005 04:53PM

Bounty, you cant say something is fact when you have no proof
yes i believe in evolution, but how did we come about in the first place? we weren't an accident we are too complex for an accident. i believe in life on other planets and if you believe in it too, then you also believe this complex 1/1000000trillrion accident happened a couple hundred thousand times which is highly unlikely

Hobbes wrote:

You can't say its right either because you have no proof. What is the point you are getting at?

Generally it is up to the person to make the accusation to prove it.

its up to both sides to prove their point yes evolution is very convincing and i believe it is happening. but, where did it start? im not saying god created man etc. that's stupid look at the dinosaurs they weren't mentioned in the bible! what im saying is i believe god started it, it didnt just exist.

Hobbes wrote:

Actually it is from Zen.

i know it was from zen hence the semi-quote. did you know that because you watched the episode? or did you actually pay attention in religion class or did you meet some zen monks? you going to come out with some other smart comments?

Doper Than U wrote:

Well it may be Zen, but it's BS. The sound exists whether we are there to hear it or not. Noise was not created for humanity alone.... animals also have ears. That's if you even believe that noise was "created" at all. Noise was here first, we developed ears to take advantage of it. Not all "noise" (vibrations) is "heard" either (ultrasound), and not all animals use/hear/experience noise the same way (snakes, bats, dogs, humans.. etc etc).

sorry but what are you on about? yes i know that animals have ears, i was using the old saying as an example..... but you can take what ever spin from it you want. my point was, that if their was no life whatsoever in the universe, the universe would be ultimately pointless.

now what you are probably going to say is that the universe would exist... i put it to you that you have no proof therefore you can only believe that the universe would still exist.... am i right? which is exactly my point. i didn't say it was right i said i believe, there's a difference and you people don't seem to understand.

ExOffender wrote:

Posit a universe-creator, the archetypal Prime Progenitor, the Unmoved Mover, God Almighty and All-powerful , etc. If this 'God' is omnipotent, can it create a really heavy rock? Surely. Can it lift rocks, too? Sure. Even really heavy ones. So: can this God create a rock that's too heavy for it to lift? Because if that's the case, this God cannot be all-powerful (can't lift the rock), and if it's not the case, this God cannot be all-powerful (can't create the too-heavy rock). So omnipotence, and hence God, (from the limited perspective of formal logic) cannot exist. This is the 'irresistible force v. immovable object' debate, and the two cannot exist in the same universe since, by definition, the existence of one negates the existence of the other.).

ive heard it before and it doesnt convince me if god creates a rock and if no-one else in the universe except him can lift it that makes him all powerful not that god would waste his time lifting rocks all day or anything. i dont believe in the bible im not catholic i dont believe in the catholic church and maybe i was wrong to use the bible ill give you that.

ExOffender wrote:

And the point of our experiencing it is...?

aaah the meaning of life that's a doorway in to a conversation that could last for ages. a watchmaker god thats the one

wowoma wrote:

Im sorry but I think religion is unreasonable.

Evolution is all around us.

religion is fairly un reasonable but the belief in god isn't, evolution is all around us but where did it begin?

[edit]
and ultimately if i am wrong ill be a foolish rotting corpse in the ground and ill accept that i dont believe in god because i am afraid of death and seek comfort

ExOffender · 14-04-2005 04:30AM

Catsmokinpot wrote:

ive heard (the heavy rock argument) before and it doesnt convince me if god creates a rock and if no-one else in the universe except him can lift it that makes him all powerful

No, it doesn't. To be all-powerful, omnipotent, you must be capable of doing anything. Anything. I may not have been entirely clear.

1) God creates the universe

2) God inhabits the universe.

3) God becomes subject to the physical laws of the universe it created.

Number three just doesn't wash. But that's what you're arguing for. If there is a God, that God must be omnipotent, and yet, as we perceive things, omnipotence cannot exist. If you want to argue for a God you must divorce God from omnipotence. And that's gonna be a toughie, I have to say.

Doper Than U · 14-04-2005 06:12AM

now what you are probably going to say is that the universe would exist... i put it to you that you have no proof therefore you can only believe that the universe would still exist.... am i right? which is exactly my point. i didn't say it was right i said i believe, there's a difference and you people don't seem to understand.

I understand fully the difference between belief and fact. That you still believe in something despite facts that show otherwise just goes to show that logic can't explain everything in this universe.

And the universe existed long before we (and we have no proof of other intelligent life, despite the fact that it is incredibly likely, so lets just deal with the facts we do have) arrived, making your argument that "life must exist for the universe not to be pointless" moot. The universe cares not whether it has a point. It exists. Do you think that once all the creatures capable of sentience die, the universe will suddenly die with it? It won't, it'll just carry along it's own path.

Either way, no-one fully understands the Universe, just as no-one fully understands God (if there is one). Why get so upset when people disagree with your beliefs? They are after all, only beliefs. You have no proof of God in any way, shape or form. There is proof of the existence of the Universe prior to mankind. If you're so concerned with "proof", then work with the facts we've got (and try to discover some more if you wish). Incidentally, do I need to say that you have no proof that the universe would be pointless without life? Creationism is based on the false assumption that just because something is so unlikely (that life was an accident) to the human mind that there must be another explanation.

My point about animals having ears seems to have escaped you. It was to echo that the Universe would exist whether we were around to experience it or not. Noise exists whether we are here to experience it or not. (Put a tape recorder in a forest.. if a tree falls, you'll hear the sound that was recorded. The tree has no prior knowledge that someone will eventually hear it hit the ground. It either makes noise or it doesn't.) Again, I use your own argument against you, prove that it doesn't exist.

and ultimately if i am wrong ill be a foolish rotting corpse in the ground and ill accept that i dont believe in god because i am afraid of death and seek comfort

You don't have to believe in a God to be comforted about death. There is no proof that an "afterlife" does not exist (God has little to do with it). Evolutionary theory doesn't deny the possibility of another "plane of existence"... in fact that's the last thing it would do. It is concerned with the progressive development of the biology of species. It makes no attempt to explain what happens when a member of a certain species dies. That is beyond the purview of any science (or religion, for that matter).

po0k · 14-04-2005 06:47AM

I can't fathom why people take creationism as a valid answer...and then stick to their guns about it.

Slack-jawed morons.

ExOffender · 14-04-2005 07:40PM

ExOffender wrote:

(can't create the too-heavy rock)

Just noticed... is this an album title or what?

The_B_Man · 14-04-2005 08:51PM

heres my theory. The man i dentified as Jesus existed. His story was based on a true story. This is that story:

One evening, Mary is walking home. An alien comes down (the "angel") and "abducts" her and impregnates her with an alien/human hybrid (immaculate conception). 9 months later, the aliens return. three "wise" men follow the UFO and give the alien baby gifts for whatever reason. 30 years later, the alien child discovers it has powers to change water to wine and the thing with the fish.

The reason the aliens did this was to forcibly evolve the human race. I believe they have been doing this for centuries since the human race were apes. They cross bred with us as apes, making us inherit their genes and then continued to crossbreed with the ape/alien hybrids, hence why we lost all our hair etc and are evolving into looking more like your average stereotypical alien, ie less hair, smaller, skinnier, smarter, more developed brains. It is these hybrids that we have "evolved" into today and will continue to evolve into until the aliens deem we have evolved enough to be left develop on our own. however, they will come back to keep an eye on us and study our progress.

My 2c.

I might start me own religion actually. apparently theres tax breaks.

/Edit: 800th post! gwan.

Shabadu · 14-04-2005 08:54PM

Pesky aliens! Get off me planet. *shakey fist*

Hobbes · 14-04-2005 09:57PM

Catsmokinpot wrote:

its up to both sides to prove their point

Correct. Thier point. Evolution has proved its point based on the existing evidence. Also bare in mind it is a theory, which means it can be proven wrong.

The creationist on the other hand has no evidence to support its accusations and if proven wrong is generally ignored.

but, where did it start?

I believe from some goo and lightning or some such, but that is a different theory. Evolution doesn't set out to prove how everything starts.

Funny though, you never did say where God came from.

you going to come out with some other smart comments?

Not a smart comment an observation. You made yourself sound silly by citing simpsons to it.

Pet · 15-04-2005 01:26AM

heres my theory. The man i dentified as Jesus existed. His story was based on a true story. This is that story:

One evening, Mary is walking home. An alien comes down (the "angel") and "abducts" her and impregnates her with an alien/human hybrid (immaculate conception). 9 months later, the aliens return. three "wise" men follow the UFO and give the alien baby gifts for whatever reason. 30 years later, the alien child discovers it has powers to change water to wine and the thing with the fish.

The reason the aliens did this was to forcibly evolve the human race. I believe they have been doing this for centuries since the human race were apes. They cross bred with us as apes, making us inherit their genes and then continued to crossbreed with the ape/alien hybrids, hence why we lost all our hair etc and are evolving into looking more like your average stereotypical alien, ie less hair, smaller, skinnier, smarter, more developed brains. It is these hybrids that we have "evolved" into today and will continue to evolve into until the aliens deem we have evolved enough to be left develop on our own. however, they will come back to keep an eye on us and study our progress.

I'll say one thing; it's a lot more likely than some of the theories I've heard. And if you read the Bible as a giant string of metaphors, codes and similes, it would make for a much more interesting and plausible account.

I can't fathom why people take creationism as a valid answer...and then stick to their guns about it.

The Creationists do not like the idea of having to sift through the Bible and pick the truth from the myth. They believe that if any one part of the Bible can be wrong or disregarded, then the whole thing can be cast into doubt. It's an all-or-nothing scenario. Everything msut be taken literally and at face-value. So you could say Christianity is built on an inverted pyramid of cards.

Then again, there are many, many scientific-minded people who will completely deny the existence of a god/God/afterlife/anything metaphysical as there is "no proof". And really, that's almost as bad. It's sheer arrogance to think that science can explain everything. The existence of a god or higher being cannot be proven or disproven. Science can be just as dogmatic and ignorant as religion, and it's something that saddens me.

Evolution V Creationism

Comments