Pope just died

#212 08-04-2005 11:39AM

Spacedog

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I wouldn't describe people with a sense of spitituality as being infulenced by dogma. Nor do I consider the people of Africa as ignorant of anything that isn't the teachings of the catholic church. I still don't understand exactly what you would have done in the position of the Pope?

To allow use on condoms would advocate premarital sex?

To advocate premarital sex, would devalue the sacrament of marriage?

You can't just change thousands of years of spiritual teachings without undermining peoples faith. I'm not a religous person, but even I can understand that. You have to learn to accept and respect the beliefs others, even if they don't co-inside with your own.

On this, the day of the Popes funeral, can't you say a good word for this well respected man?

I appreciated his work for peace, understanding and equality amoung all people. RIP

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#213 08-04-2005 11:58AM

mycroft

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Spacedog wrote:

I wouldn't describe people with a sense of spitituality as being infulenced by dogma. Nor do I consider the people of Africa as ignorant of anything that isn't the teachings of the catholic church. I still don't understand exactly what you would have done in the position of the Pope?

To allow use on condoms would advocate premarital sex?

To advocate premarital sex, would devalue the sacrament of marriage?

Sacrament of marriage.

vs

Slow painful death.

Hmmmmm tough choice.

You can't just change thousands of years of spiritual teachings without undermining peoples faith. I'm not a religous person, but even I can understand that. You have to learn to accept and respect the beliefs others, even if they don't co-inside with your own.

Wow profound man, now all we need is for you to respect the cinema going habits of others, and we're onto something. Hyprocrit.

Furthermore, catholicism was introduced to most of africa in the last few hundred years.

On this, the day of the Popes funeral, can't you say a good word for this well respected man?

I appreciated his work for peace, understanding and equality amoung all people. RIP

And I appreciate that the stacked the deck of cardinals with conservatives with his own viewpoint, to ensure the next pope will exactly have the same beliefs as himself.

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#214 08-04-2005 12:36PM

billy the squid

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mycroft wrote:

Sacrament of marriage.

vs

Slow painful death.

Hmmmmm tough choice.

or you could choose not to jump into the sack with the first thing you see with a hole between its legs. rather get to know and love your partner enough to trust that they dont have any STIs

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#215 08-04-2005 01:25PM

daveirl

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#216 08-04-2005 03:07PM

Spacedog

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mycroft wrote:

Sacrament of marriage.

vs

Slow painful death.

Hmmmmm tough choice.

For most who believe in Catholisim, A slow painful death would a small price to pay for everlasting life.

mycroft wrote:

Wow profound man, now all we need is for you to respect the cinema going habits of others, and we're onto something. Hyprocrit.

Hypocrite? There is a diffrence between idiot Ben Affleck fans like you and 1 Billion followers of the Catholic faith. Ben Affleck fans are idiots, Members of any faith who find enlightenment through thought and prayer, desreve not to be judged by their religion by by their individual personalites.

You avoided my question, what you would have done in the position of the Pope?

There's no point complaining about a decision unless you have a solution in mind? If you were Pope (God forbid), what exactly would your policy be?

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#217 08-04-2005 03:40PM

StupidLikeAFox

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I'll tell ya what mycroft, when you have the balls to stand up and make a stand against this, or work to change this, publicly, then i will listen to you. WHINGING on an internet message forum about how EVIL the pope is, coming up with these conspiracies, is just lame. (so is your sig, grow up). When you have done half the work of the pope, you will be entitled to put him down.

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#218 08-04-2005 11:53PM

mycroft

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Spacedog wrote:

You avoided my question, what you would have done in the position of the Pope?

There's no point complaining about a decision unless you have a solution in mind? If you were Pope (God forbid), what exactly would your policy be?

You've never asked that question idiot.

But I dunno, maybe like sell the churchs immense wealth and art collection and solve a few problems like maybe disease or hunger.

I'd then do a mary magedline and not stand judgement over homosexuals, or some complex notion of martial relations and allow catholics to use contraception.

I'll tell ya what mycroft, when you have the balls to stand up and make a stand against this, or work to change this, publicly, then i will listen to you. WHINGING on an internet message forum about how EVIL the pope is, coming up with these conspiracies, is just lame. (so is your sig, grow up). When you have done half the work of the pope, you will be entitled to put him down.

And your opinion of me and my sig, cares not a flying f*ck of your opinion. And I'd be impressed if I'd done nearly as much damage as the man as done, I'd listen to you for a second.

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#219 09-04-2005 01:40AM

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mycroft wrote:

You've never asked that question idiot.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2587440&postcount=212

mycroft wrote:

But I dunno, maybe like sell the churchs immense wealth and art collection and solve a few problems like maybe disease or hunger.

Would you sell the sistene chapel to the highest bidder?

The church keeps priceless relics and artworks as they are important symbols of faith and sacrifce of past generations. They are not sleasy art dealers. The church encourages it's followers to help others and donate to these same causes, By selling their heritage, they would devalue their own faith and the not instill confidence in their leadership. Would you sell the artwork or the entire catholic church?

I agree that many problems in todays world stem from financal/economic problems. but it is not a church that is responsable for these problems, issues of trade agreements and distribution of wealth are far beyond the scope of what is essentially a spritual organisation. Spritual wealth far outweighs phisical wealth.

How would these finances help prevent the other 4 genocides you mentioned?

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#220 09-04-2005 04:07AM

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mycroft wrote:

And I'd be impressed if I'd done nearly as much damage as the man as done, I'd listen to you for a second.

Damage?!?! I suppose this man went out and got AIDS and physically raped a million people? Quit looking for a scapegoat

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#221 09-04-2005 01:37PM

mycroft

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Spacedog wrote:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2587440&postcount=212

Would you sell the sistene chapel to the highest bidder?

The church makes plenty of money from the sistine chapel. And managed to ensure that the people of japan footed the bill for it's restoration

from here

http://quotes.watchtower.ca/religion-money.htm

The Vatican has had problems of another type: bad investments. Reporting on the crumbling empire of Italian financier Michele Sindona, "Business Week" magazine lists the Vatican as one of the "big losers." Of the Vatican's investments in two of Sindona's banks (one now bankrupt and the other closed by Swiss authorities), the magazine says that "the smart money in Rome puts the total Church loss between $40-million and $50-million." The "National Catholic Reporter" comments that if all the money given the Catholic Church were put in one bank account, "the Church of Rome, Inc. would undoubtedly be the world's largest multinational corporation."

or
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/4/2/163547/0483

m sorry, the hypocrisy is stunning. Those who call themselves "religious moderates" turn their backs on the suffering of the world's poor women and children every time the Catholic Church is praised, every time they tolerate Pope John Paul II being held up as a Holy Man, every time they are respectful of the pomp and ceremony [read: atrocious squandering of money--let's see the number again: $330,000,000 per year] to prop up an organization that actively seeks to retain a human hierarchy in which women are second class and are to have no real control over their reproductive future.

or
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/special/story/295836p-253278c.html

Several years ago, the Financial Times put the value of the Vatican's real estate holdings at $37.2 billion and its stock portfolio at $23.9 billion.

Every cardinal who arrived in the vatican was carried in a nice shiny merc or bwm, it's a far cry from St Francis and his ass

The church keeps priceless relics and artworks as they are important symbols of faith and sacrifce of past generations. They are not sleasy art dealers. The church encourages it's followers to help others and donate to these same causes, By selling their heritage, they would devalue their own faith and the not instill confidence in their leadership. Would you sell the artwork or the entire catholic church?

A collection which most catholics don't get to see or experience, because most of it is locked away.

And what kind of defense is that anyway,

Man dying of aids
"help me"

Church
"Sorry my catholic son, if it's any consilation we've got a fine collection of art over there, kept save for your children"

Man dying of aids
"My children have aids too."

Church
"er...."

And what would jesus say? Keep one of the worlds largest art collections, or save the lives of millions of people?

I agree that many problems in todays world stem from financal/economic problems. but it is not a church that is responsable for these problems, issues of trade agreements and distribution of wealth are far beyond the scope of what is essentially a spritual organisation. Spritual wealth far outweighs phisical wealth.

Try saying that to the sick and starving. And doesn't all that wealth run contray to the church's own teachings?

How would these finances help prevent the other 4 genocides you mentioned?

The figure of four genocides refers to 120m AIDs suffers.

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#222 09-04-2005 02:12PM

StupidLikeAFox

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So the Vatican gets rid of all its assetts its built up over the years to help a crisis? What happens in 50 years time when another crisis comes around? They have nothing. The way you look at it you're blaming the church for all AIDS sufferers, and expecting the church to foot the bill and eradicate the problem. I cant see how the Vatican can take the blame for all those AIDS sufferers, what ever happened to free will? Also i would be very impressed if you found a clip of a priest telling a man with AIDS to rape this woman

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#223 09-04-2005 02:21PM

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Is it the Popes duty to solve the worlds problems or to act as a spritual leader?

Much of the Vatican art and relics are of more spritual value than actual monitary worth on the open art market. Asking for such spritually priceless items to be sold would like asking muslems to sell Mecca, or the Jews to give up the Holy Land.

"The figure of four genocides refers to 120m AIDs suffers"

Is that 30m per genocide?

Do you disagree with this Pope in particular?, or any Pope? is your criticism aimed at one man?, the whole of the catholic church?, or all organised religion?

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#224 09-04-2005 02:28PM

mycroft

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Spacedog wrote:

Is it the Popes duty to solve the worlds problems or to act as a spritual leader?

Much of the Vatican art and relics are of more spritual value than actual monitary worth on the open art market. Asking for such spritually priceless items to be sold would like asking muslems to sell Mecca, or the Jews to give up the Holy Land.

And the cash, and the real estate?

And the jews don't have the holy land. Israeli has part of the holy land, and it's contentious who owns what. You may have read something about that.

If it's a spiritual value, and a priest really needs in a bible, does it need a collection of Carravagios?

"The figure of four genocides refers to 120m AIDs suffers"

Is that 30m per genocide?

Are you quibbling about the 5genocides? Fine we'll just settle on the 120m

Do you disagree with this Pope in particular?, or any Pope? is your criticism aimed at one man?, the whole of the catholic church?, or all organised religion?

This pope his "teaching", and the catholic church.

Oh and your precious Hicks had something to say about organised religions, and this pope in particular.

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#225 09-04-2005 02:34PM

mycroft

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ColHol wrote:

So the Vatican gets rid of all its assetts its built up over the years to help a crisis? What happens in 50 years time when another crisis comes around? They have nothing. The way you look at it you're blaming the church for all AIDS sufferers, and expecting the church to foot the bill and eradicate the problem. I cant see how the Vatican can take the blame for all those AIDS sufferers, what ever happened to free will? Also i would be very impressed if you found a clip of a priest telling a man with AIDS to rape this woman

I'd consider that catholic church having such assets runs contray to it's own teachings.

And a humanitarian crisis of this scale has never happened before.

How about Archibishops's claiming that HIV virus is too small for condoms to prevent them. The church has helped spread lies about aids, and hiv, that have helped the virus propogate, and by denial of catholics the use of condoms, they've stopped the distribution of the most effective tool aganist the virus.

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#226 09-04-2005 02:50PM

billy the squid

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actually the church promoted abstinance, which is even better than condoms.

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#227 09-04-2005 02:56PM

mycroft

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billy the squid wrote:

actually the church promoted abstinance, which is even better than condoms.

Yeah, abstinance. Texas has the best funded teen abstinance program, and the the highest rate of teen pregancy.

Abstinance doesn't work.

And what if you were born with the virus, pratice absitance till marriage then give your wife and children the virus, because you can't use a condom.

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#228 09-04-2005 03:02PM

StupidLikeAFox

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mycroft wrote:

Abstinance doesn't work.

It doesnt work because people cant keep their flong in their pants yeah? I suppose thats the churchs fault also?

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#229 09-04-2005 03:07PM

mycroft

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ColHol wrote:

It doesnt work because people cant keep their flong in their pants yeah? I suppose thats the churchs fault also?

No but how about the church recognise that fact, and let their congregation to y'know, use condoms.

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#230 09-04-2005 03:12PM

StupidLikeAFox

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Theirs condoms in every pub toilet in ireland. Theres charitys who lash them out over in Africa. Ive seen a documentary where Africans were arguing that condoms dont allow your penis to breathe. Condoms are there for the taking, blaming the church is just looking for a scapegoat imo

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#231 09-04-2005 03:24PM

mycroft

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ColHol wrote:

Theirs condoms in every pub toilet in ireland. Theres charitys who lash them out over in Africa. Ive seen a documentary where Africans were arguing that condoms dont allow your penis to breathe. Condoms are there for the taking, blaming the church is just looking for a scapegoat imo

And there aren't charities with the same structure of missions and wealth of the church. There isn't a charity which the reach and organisational structure in africa as the church

Religious missions are some the only medical centers available to the huge proportion of africans. If these missions where educating about HiV and Aids and that condoms prevent the virus, while distributing condoms, it would have a radical impact on Africa. The level of ignorance about the virus is staggering, and the church is continuing to propagate myths and dogma. But I've said all this before, on this thread.

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#232 09-04-2005 03:55PM

billy the squid

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mycroft wrote:

No but how about the church recognise that fact, and let their congregation to y'know, use condoms.

oh like "we know its a sin and its wrong and all, but because so many people are doing it its ok"

i dont think so.

would you expect the government to legalise car theft because it is on the increase, or heroin or murder?

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#233 09-04-2005 04:05PM

mycroft

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billy the squid wrote:

oh like "we know its a sin and its wrong and all, but because so many people are doing it its ok"

i dont think so.

The church has reclassified sins, and what is moral and immoral for catholics to do time and time again over the course of its history. It has changed it's opinion on countless subjects, and issues, and sometimes changed it back (witness the laughable flip flop over papal infability) It has changed what is immoral in the eyes of god, for profit, societital changes, and necessisity. Why should this be different?

would you expect the government to legalise car theft because it is on the increase, or heroin or murder?

Thats specious reasoning. For starts manslaughter in self defense is a valid defense, as is stealing a car to provent a greater wrong. (for example taking an injuried person to hosipital and this is the only possible means of transportation)

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#234 09-04-2005 06:36PM

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The Vatican's deeper power is in its personal authority over 1.3 billion worshippers, which is strongest over the poorest, most helpless devotees. With its ban on condoms the church has caused the death of millions of Catholics and others in areas dominated by Catholic missionaries, in Africa and right across the world. In countries where 50% are infected, millions of very young Aids orphans are today's immediate victims of the curia. Refusing support to all who offer condoms, spreading the lie that the Aids virus passes easily through microscopic holes in condoms - this irresponsibility is beyond all comprehension.

This is said often, even in this unctuous week - and yet still it does not permeate. He was a good, caring man nevertheless, they say, as if it were a minor aberration. But genuflecting before this corpse is scarcely different to parading past Lenin: they both put extreme ideology before human life and happiness, at unimaginable human cost. How dare our prime minister go there in our name to give the Vatican our approval for this? Will he think of Africa when on his knees today? I trust history will some day express astonishment at moral outrage wasted on sexual trivia while papal celebrity and charisma cloaked this great Vatican crime.

The editor of the Catholic Herald was somewhat Jesuitical when I argued with him in a BBC studio yesterday. He asked how the Pope could be blamed when all the church calls for is sex within marriage and abstinence. But abstinence and celibacy are not the human condition. If the Vatican learned anything about humanity, it would humbly meditate on 4,450 Catholic clergy in the US alone accused of molesting children since 1950, and no doubt as many in Catholic churches elsewhere still in denial.

The scale of it is breathtaking yet not at all surprising: most humans are sexual beings. A Vatican edict in the 1960s threatened to excommunicate anyone breaking secrecy on child sex allegations, and guaranteed that ever more children continued to suffer. And within its walls the Vatican shields an American priest from allegations.

Still the Vatican turns a blind eye to this most repugnant and damaging of all sexual practices, the suffering little children whose priests come unto them. Yet at the same time it thunders disapproval of sex in every other more innocent circumstance, blighting the lives of millions with its teaching on gays, divorce, abortion and unrealistic self-denial. There is no reckoning how many of the world's poorest women have died giving birth to more children than they can survive; contraception is women's true saviour.

In 1971 I interviewed Mother Teresa and asked how she justified letting starving babies be born to die on Calcutta streets for lack of contraception. She said sublimely that every baby entering the world was another soul created in praise of God, even if it lived only a few hours. She was never keen on cures: suffering was a gift of God that enabled those who cared for the afflicted to demonstrate their love. She was beatified by John Paul II for their shared religious mania. Those who met them talk of an aura of love, power, listening and intensity. But goodness is in doing good; good intent is no excuse for murderous error.

From here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1454932,00.html

And this

The greatest crime of his papacy, however, was neither his part in this cover up nor his neanderthal attitude to women. It was the grotesque irony by which the Vatican condemned - as a "culture of death" - condoms, which might have saved countless Catholics in the developing world from an agonising Aids death. The Pope goes to his eternal reward with those deaths on his hands. He was one of the greatest disasters for the Christian church since Charles Darwin.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1451484,00.html

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#235 09-04-2005 08:53PM

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#236 09-04-2005 10:11PM

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daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

As am I, so far the AIDS epidemic has been identified as a genocide.

dictionary.com --> Genocide:
1) The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.
2) the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
3) systematic killing of a racial or cultural group

Apparently it is being suggested that the Catholic Church deliberately educate people to have unprotected sex with intent of them contracting AIDS and dying. What I don't understand is why and organised religion would want to systematically murder it's own followers?

mycroft wrote:

This pope his "teaching", and the catholic church.

Oh and your precious Hicks had something to say about organised religions, and this pope in particular.

Refresh my memory, I've read transcripts of most of his sets and don't recall.

Anyway, if you disagree with organised religion in general, fair enough, but don't you think the Popes death an insensative time to start rubbing it in people's faces?

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#237 09-04-2005 10:48PM

mycroft

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Spacedog wrote:

As am I, so far the AIDS epidemic has been identified as a genocide.

dictionary.com --> Genocide:
1) The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.
2) the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
3) systematic killing of a racial or cultural group

By ignoring the vast body of medicial evidence that condoms prevent aids and the mass spread of aids then he is complaisant in the spread of the virus, when the church is aware the evidence and says nothing. Which is what I've said. Knowing that a disaster is about to occur, and denial of its existance or its most effective cure , despite the medicial evidence weighing in, and preaching dogma while refuting facts with lies, while you are seen as moral advisor to millions, means you are playing a part in a genocide.

Apparently it is being suggested that the Catholic Church deliberately educate people to have unprotected sex with intent of them contracting AIDS and dying. What I don't understand is why and organised religion would want to systematically murder it's own followers?

Ahem;

Poly Tonybee wrote:

In 1971 I interviewed Mother Teresa and asked how she justified letting starving babies be born to die on Calcutta streets for lack of contraception. She said sublimely that every baby entering the world was another soul created in praise of God, even if it lived only a few hours. She was never keen on cures: suffering was a gift of God that enabled those who cared for the afflicted to demonstrate their love. She was beatified by John Paul II for their shared religious mania. Those who met them talk of an aura of love, power, listening and intensity. But goodness is in doing good; good intent is no excuse for murderous error.

Refresh my memory, I've read transcripts of most of his sets and don't recall.

hicks; "d'yknow what I love "the pope mobile, I swear I want CNN to show that in action all the time. We need a channel dedicated to it, because y'know the one true god's spokesperson on earth, needs a bulletproof car. I mean, thats faith in action"

And also, a motto to live by;

"Never trust anyone who starts a sentence with "what god meant to say was..."*

*And FFS sake thats an analogy on his part, he's trying to say never trust anyone who tries to twist the "word of god" before you get stupid**

**More stupid than usual.

Anyway, if you disagree with organised religion in general, fair enough, but don't you think the Popes death an insensative time to start rubbing it in people's faces?

No I think the moment when half educated morons such as yourself, who like to quote Hicks, while defending the insititutions he loathed, and then while a conservative branch of the church try to proclaim the man to be the greatest human being to not have walked on water, is the exact moment to go, "actually he was a utter dogmatic religious c*nt who did everything in his power to revoke the Vatican II (the modernisation of the church that happened before he was pontificated) declared a sexual orientation as evil, condemned millions to death through his dogma, cosied up to Dicatators, and ensured the next pontify will be a conservative like himself, all the while protecting child abusers. *

*oh and I have facts to back up all this up.

In the middest of all this fawning bulls*it I'm happy to stand up and say the pope has no clothes.

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#238 10-04-2005 01:29AM

mycroft

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mycroft wrote:

allowing a genocide or five to happen

Actually looking back i never said 5 genocides. I made a glib comment about the potential level of death. I never said 'five" genocides.

Wow.

You guys are just clutching at straws here

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#239 10-04-2005 04:14AM

billy the squid

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since when did stealing cars become legal in cases of helping other people?

and if you think that pre-marital sex should be approved by the church then why should the government not allow heroine to be sold on the streets legally.

I mean both have the potential to kill you right.

so the church doesnt agree with people shagging all round them not even spending time to find out if whe person under them or on top of them can be trustworthy. tough **** , but the more people go out whoring all round them the higher the risk of getting an STI is.

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#240 10-04-2005 12:46PM

Spacedog

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mycroft wrote:

Actually looking back i never said 5 genocides. I made a glib comment about the potential level of death. I never said 'five" genocides.

So you were exadurating your point, and now that you've been called up on it, your backing down to one genocide instead of five (minimum 'potential'). Thank you for having the courage to admit that much.

Now to the remaining so-called "genocide",

Why would an organised religous organisation want to systematically murder it's own followers?

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#241 10-04-2005 01:46PM

mycroft

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billy the squid wrote:

since when did stealing cars become legal in cases of helping other people?

Commiting a crime to prevent a greater crime from occuring, is an acceptable offense.

and if you think that pre-marital sex should be approved by the church then why should the government not allow heroine to be sold on the streets legally.

The two are completely different. Also the government does allow legal form of heroin it's called methadone.

I mean both have the potential to kill you right.

so the church doesnt agree with people shagging all round them not even spending time to find out if whe person under them or on top of them can be trustworthy. tough **** , but the more people go out whoring all round them the higher the risk of getting an STI is.

Pssst people have being having sex for generations. It's how we all got here. The risks and dangerous have increased dramatically in the past fifty years. It's time the church recognised that and changed its policy.

So you were exadurating your point, and now that you've been called up on it, your backing down to one genocide instead of five (minimum 'potential'). Thank you for having the courage to admit that much.

No I didn't, I've been misquoted, I called you on it, and you're claiming I'm backing down. It's kinda sweet watching you try and put words in my mouth, so you can claw some semblance of a personal victory over me.

See;

spacedog wrote:

3) systematic killing of a racial or cultural group

Aids has the potential to destroy entire cultures, ethnic groups, and nations, as ruthless and effective a killer as anything we could dream up.

Why would an organised religous organisation want to systematically murder it's own followers?

Would you read the shagging quote this time?

Please, seriously I'm getting fed up repeating myself.

In 1971 I interviewed Mother Teresa and asked how she justified letting starving babies be born to die on Calcutta streets for lack of contraception. She said sublimely that every baby entering the world was another soul created in praise of God, even if it lived only a few hours. She was never keen on cures: suffering was a gift of God that enabled those who cared for the afflicted to demonstrate their love. She was beatified by John Paul II for their shared religious mania. Those who met them talk of an aura of love, power, listening and intensity. But goodness is in doing good; good intent is no excuse for murderous error.

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